Out of the FOG

Any other UK dad's out there with young children? If you'd like to share them I'd be interested to read your experiences, either with coping day to day or the whole separation/divorce process and how you've rebuilt.

I'm with my wife at the moment regardless of the numerous threats of separation and divorce.

Currently I don't think the situation bad enough to warrant leaving, not when compared to being such a limited presence to our kids.  That's even before addressing the financial ramifications of breaking up with a 40 year old mother of 2, with no job, limited career opportunities, bankruptcy history, looking after 2 children under 4 within the London commuter belt, whilst renting as we've been priced out of the market.

Hello Crushed_Dad. You are not alone. I'm in the UK too in a similar area. I have a uBPD/uNPD sister. I am not a father. What you have posted here and in your other posts reminded me of what my sister's ex-husband went through with their children who are now in their twenties. It's all so familiar.

You need support. Please get in touch with your local carers centre www.carers.org they should have someone who specializes in legal matters. They should also have a support group you can join.

You could also join your nearest Rethink Mental Illness support group where you can meet other mental health carers www.rethink.org .

Keep posting. There is lots of support here as well.

Best wishes.

Many thanks guitar man, will follow that up, it's very helpful.

Out of interest how have the children developed over that period, do you believe there's been a significant influence on them?

Sounds like your nieces and nephews are lucky to have someone from that side of the family who recognises the issue and can try to stem the tide. My wife's side have been lured in to thinking that the problem lies squarely at my door, only my father and brother understand and whilst that's a great support we feel like we'll never be in a position to try and address this problem.

I'm currently involved in a large IT project at work, on similar projects people have been refused holiday during their duration. When trying to explain that to her this morning I got this in response.....

"What not time at all? It's ok, no need to reply to that, I'm used to you not taking time off in school holidays to help"

What purpose does that kind of message serve? I get 25 days holiday a year, in the previous 4 years I've had to sacrifice 4 weeks for paternity leave, as never been in a job long enough to qualify for it, and 7 days for professional courses because I can't do it at evenings and weekends. Every time we have spent a week off together we disagree on things to do because I'm having to second guess her agenda anyway so it just ends up miserable.

Crushed Dad, there are a lot of UK fathers on Shrink4Men forum who have negotiated 50:50 custody.

Really can't see how that'll work, I commute currently and even where I am it's a 12 hour day 6-6. I pay 1/2 my salary in rent and train season tickets alone.

Come divorce I would be fully expecting that in addition to child maintenance of around £200 a week) I would be anticipate to contribute 1K a month towards their accommodation to stay in the area (sleepy market town Dacorum borough).

Shared custody would probably have a more detrimental effect and my family all live 80 miles away.

Sorry I really appreciate the effort, and I'm trying not to turn away all advice, just very hard to see alternatives to the status quo.

Saw a solicitor today, pretty much reinforced what I thought. Kids rightly come first and my wife will totally align herself with them. With work commitments, I have to provide for them and their future so they stand a chance, which means she has custody as I'm out 12 hrs a day. In turn she'll need accommodation and subsistence at which point I'm done for. If I petition things might be better but with a high conflict I fear all our 40k's worth of savings will be wasted in battle

Hello Crushed_Dad

This group might be able to help you.

Families Need Fathers https://fnf.org.uk

I have a friend who is in a similar position as you and they have helped him.

Everything must be so stressful for you.

Best wishes.

Many thanks guitarman, when I have a quiet moment I'll follow up on this.

As mentioned previously I'm hoping to maintain a close bond to the kids and if that means making some personal sacrifices and being in some positions then so be it. The FOG is the stressful part, the second guessing and never knowing where we stand, not knowing how she'll react to suggestions, or what I'm going to be blamed for next. We're due to move to next rental next week which once in, will settle things down.

Long term my aim is to keep put. All our parents are divorced and they all own their own houses, and given her dad's place is worth about £3M!!! and her Mum's over 300K I know my wife will be taken of. When that stage comes it'll mean a separation wont be future threatening. Cold and calculating I know and quite sad when you think of it.

I know what you mean about FOG and second guessing. It's what if? what if? what if? all the time.

My rule is to stay calm no matter what happens.

You have to plan ahead for the worse case scenario for your children's sake and for yours. It's not being calculating at all. It's called being a good parent.

Best wishes.

Hello, I'm a UK dad of two(10&8).  My stb ex demonstrated BPD traits that got worse once children came along.... accusations of me having affairs with explicit swearing at me in front of the child's..."dad's a mother fxxxxx" "who are you fxxxing?", Hyper controlling, projecting, trying to alienate me and the children from my family, paranoid accusations about her p/t job colleagues.  It got to the point that I couldn't condone the behavior or let the children hear and see their dad and his family being falsely portrayed or let the think this was what a marriage should be.  It was also affecting my relationship with my eldest.  4 months ago with much sadness I initiated divorce.    This opened Pandora's box..... vile claims were made to police and SW that I was domestically abusive, that I was controlling and that I was financially abusive (I actually paid for all house costs and mortgage).  She took sons mobilephone of him so I couldn't call them, and when I tried landline no answer and next t day solicitor letter saying claim of harassment made to police.  Whilst investigated and interviewed by police I had no contact with children.  Fortunately police and SW were great and saw it for what it was, but I still had to implement court order to have children stay over becauae she wouldn't agree or go to mediation (children need both parents for goodness sake) and like a bully she backed down and court order was rubber stamped.  Now battling on finance.  She gave up pt job saying i made her ill.  I pay mortgage and all bills in lieu of child maintenance as i agreed through solicitor (although she still pursued csa) in interim to make  sure children provixed  for.  she didn't disclose the 1k+ of benefits she is now getting on her form e or that she has been working pt.  There is equity in property for her to be mortgage free on a smaller property for her and the children and I will willing pay child maintenance.  I have also given her all the white goods furnishings etc so that she has a ready home.  I would then have a massive mortgage until very old and a tiny property but she is pushing for more and wants 1k spousal maintenance in addition to the above and her benefits.  Wow.....2k a month with no mortgage, very nice.  I will not have enough left to rent, let alone a mortgage or billls.  I am very lucky that I have great family and can stay with them for as long as needed but having worked so hard to get a nice house and being back with mum and Dad in 40s is kinda hard.  The financial part is hard as is not l knowing how it will be resolved.  However, the key point is that my relationship with the children os great, it is free, m
Natural and without negative propaganda (at least not when with me) and it means the children are free to make up their own minds. I have never critised their mum and this is key,  despite them telling me the bad things she says.  I sympathise massively with you.  My future is unclear and scary but I know that I tried so hard to make the marriage work, it couldn't and that the children have at least a "normal"(whatever that maybe, but at least not bpd), when with me....they can then form their own opinions and I believe children are quite perceptive.  I wish you well.  It is open to various opinions but my view is that it is better for children to be free of the negative atmosphere of a bpd environment and that although I have less time with them the quality is great .  Good luck

You're not alone.

I'm probably a step short of where you are at the moment, but have all the same concerns.

Wife currently has no income (time off with baby, new baby on the way). Mortgage of 1k+ per month, housing market now in the shitter. I' not sure I can face moving out of a nice house with garden that we only moved into a few months ago back into some pokey flat which we finally escaped (and tbh which I probably can't afford anyway, think more like bedsit).

She's quite happy to swear at me in front of the kid (and on one occasion slapped me hard around the face while I was holding our then 7 month old - I was so close to calling the police at that point).

As I said on another thread, I post this not so much to compare experiences but rather because I know that reading that I'm not the only one experiencing this has certainly helped me. I hope it can do the same for you.

Knowing that others are in the same situation gives comfort that we aren't the crazy ones and that we have to trust our hearts and instincts.  That said, it is so sad that this is such a prevalent condition and that a Rocky long and steep patht leads to   better life.  Financially the future is scary but I had my children stay this weekend, it was great, no looking over my shoulder, being analysed or critised.  We went camping.  Just honest, heart fault genuine quality time.  It has give n me strength.  My thoughts and best wishes to those in the confusion of not knowing what to do.  Sharing our stories can only give us strength

Hi Crushed_Dad and everyone else. Thanks for starting the thread. I joined up yesterday after wondering nearly all night just how much more I can take.
My wife hasn't been diagnosed with anything but I suspect NPD from what I have read. We have an early teen daughter that I think the world of: she is smart, talented, kind and a credit to us no matter how screwed up we are, often in front of her to my great chagrin. I despair when I think my wife is the major female role model for that child and I can only hope that her intellect and inquiring mind will save her from acting the same way towards people that her mother does.
I suspect I may find myself using these forums (fora? fori? whatevs) as something of an "abuse diary" so I apologise in advance for boring anyone! There has been a long history of nastiness and controlling behaviour when I think about it and I am sometimes disgusted with myself for not having the courage to walk out, though I think my loyalty to and desire to protect my daughter is the major reason why I haven't been able to. If my wife knew this I am almost certain she would leave and take our daughter with her as she has threatened to do this before, adding that "the courts always give custody to the mother" for good measure.
So here goes, diary entry 1: a couple of weeks ago, in the car, taking wife and daughter to the airport for them to go stay with my mother-in-law for a couple of weeks. M-i-L is very elderly and is losing marbles at an alarming rate; I don't begrudge the visits for that reason even though they are pretty much every school holidays. It's not a cakewalk to look after home and pets as well as go to work all by myself. The longest I have been away from home on a holiday of my own in twenty years is five nights.
Anyway, I digress. A row started in the car on the way to the airport and even though I tried to stop it, the sniping and belittling remarks continued even after I said "please stop, you're upsetting me." They got back home on Monday and within two hours the row had been re-started. Eventually I disengaged and she went off, ranting to the world in general: "my father wasn't like this!" "never wants his family to go forwards!" "never does anything in the house!" as I sit there looking at the new shelving units and window blinds I spent a day putting together while they were away. Fuck my life.
I look after the finances of my local branch of a national campaigning organisation. This morning I was counting up some cash in order to bank it, doing so and recording it took maybe five, ten minutes tops. A short time later I get "you know where I can see you in a couple of years' time? Begging on the streets with all this work you do for free."
I didn't engage - it took a lot of willpower not to and to remain standing there open mouthed.
She's digging away at me so much and so often that it's having an adverse effect on me at work. She can't be told as she has decided she hates my boss. It's nothing personal really because she actually doesn't have a good word to say about anyone, me included.
I'm sick of being a punchbag for someone who appears to hate herself so much that the only way she can feel better is to put others down. She is seeing our couples counselor by herself tomorrow morning and provided she remembers to go I suspect she's going to come away from it stewing and will take it out on me later.

Hi all,

I joined the forum yesterday for exactly the reasons that you are all recounting now. I too am a UK Dad and have been married to my wife for 16 years. We have two lovely boys aged 16 and 13 whom have done well academically despite the many distractions that my wife chooses to create.

I have endured the raft of behaviours that you all describe and eventually one morning as I was shaving I looked at myself in the mirror and thought "How did you get here?" The issue with my wife (and I am sorry gentlemen who are struggling financially) is that in addition to the behaviours your wives display my wife hoards money. We went to the solicitor a few months ago to draw up wills and it transpires that she has £120K stashed away that I knew nothing about. She has never released her full share of family finances and instead only releases a small proportion of her salary (which is the same as mine) which means that she has also amassed £12K in her personal account. The joint account is always overdrawn, as am I, as I put all money plus some into family finances. When I challenge her over this she states that she does this as I go out spending all the time. There is no truth in this and in fact the opposite is true. She also said that having worked part time for some years it was her time to accrue some money (but who was keeping things afloat when she did this???? ME!)

The thing I find most distressing is the psychological and emotional abuse which I have reported to the police and a local domestic abuse service, which took a lot to admit with them as often I am left questioning my own sanity. Anyway, long story short, I have finally taken the steps to divorce her in the knowledge that there will be a long and rocky road ahead for a while, however like some of you I am doing this in the knowledge that I can care for my boys when they are with me in the way that I choose to be. I will be able to do this in the knowledge that I won't be observed and criticised when doing this and that I can further build on our relationships in my own way and prove to myself that I am not a bad, unemotional, scary man that everyone is afraid of as she suggests frequently.

My thoughts and best wishes go out to all of you and I hope that we will all reach a point where we can experience a life that is not hard work and emotionally draining and gives us a chance to experience life the way that we want to without it being dictated to by A N Other.

Take care guys and will share my divorce journey with you if you like and hope that you will continue to share your experiences with the rest of us.

Apologies in advance for the very long post.  Having endured 10 months of hell since filling for divorce and finally reaching closure, I wanted to share my experience for the benefit of others who are also wading through the P.D treacle, and to encourage you to stay strong, focused , and to believe in and trust your instinct.  I was scared for my future and it was a black place but there is light ahead.  I was/am fortunate to have a wonderful family to have gotten me through.

Background:
Married for 11 years with two boys aged 10 and 8.  During the marriage my ex displayed many signs of BPD; controlling, isolating me from family, constant accusations of infidelity, paranoia, illogical thoughts, verbally aggressive (and occasionally physically), gaslighting and a huge amount of projection, belief that everyone was out to get her.  The intensity and frequency was increasing.  It got to the point where I simply couldn't condone the behaviour, accept the false statements, character assignation of my family and me and let the boys think this was "normal" behaviour.  It was already beginning to damage my bond with my eldest who was being poisoned by ex and destroying who I was and the way he saw me.   

Separation/Divorce:
In many ways my ex's behaviour during this time has mitigated any feelings of regret or conflicting emotions that I could have had.  She pursued a progressive and sequential campaign to try and destroy me emotionally, reputationally and financially, and this has actually reinforced my view that I had no choice and that I've made the right decision as had as it was.

Headline acts by my ex once divorce process initiated:
•   Refusal to discuss anything, obstructive and extremely aggressive and threatening legal correspondence
•   False accusations to police and social workers meaning a period of no contact with children either in person or on phone – swiftly rejected by authorities
•   Removal of children's phones so no contact, refusal to answer land line when I rang and then claims I was harassing her
•   Refusal to let children stay with me resulting in need for contact order.  She backed down a few days before court appearance and agreed to order without challenge....hmmm!!
•   Despite me paying all bills, mortgage etc in lieu of maintenance pending decree absolute, she still pursued child maintenance agency.  Agency told her to go away
•   Despite me paying money directly to her, she raided joint account (bank failed to action my request to freeze – long story resulting in need to sort out with Financial ombudsman) adversely affecting my credit rating
•   Only on threat of police attending did she enable me to recover my personal items, and only then with me providing a list of such items which she "dumped" in the garage for me to collect (note I still jointly own house and had legal right to enter property) .
•   Resigned from her employment saying I made her too unwell to work and that I therefore had an obligation to financially support her (note I paid the mortgage, bills, maintenance etc, whilst rented a room elsewhere)
•   Failure to disclose £1k month benefits she was claiming in addition to my payments
•   Failure to disclose that she actually was working
•   Information that she took out loans of £20k during our marriage that I knew nothing about and refusal to disclose what it was used for but expectation that I pay it off.
•   Sold family jewelry (expensive) that my mum gave her, within a week of our separation.  Whilst these were gifted and hers, sadden that with everything going on she was focused on this within such a short period when there were more important things to discuss
•   Crazy financial settlement demands – all house equity, half pensions, £1k a month maintenance plus open order that if she got into financial difficultly (which she will) I was obliged to financially support her for life.
•   Ex bad mouthed me and my family to the boys.  I never once retaliated and I believe this has strengthened my relationship with the boys. When they said these things I simply asked them questions so they could form their own opinions i.e. "why do you think she says that?", "what is the impact of what she says?"
•   Too many other things to mention

Outcome:
We had to go to court to agree financial settlement due to her steadfast refusal to discuss anything.  My position was always based on providing for the children and the deal reached was pretty much that which I had offered 5 months prior to the court i.e. she wasted time and massively increased legal fees.  Court was avoidable.  She walks away (once family home is sold) with enough equity to buy a property mortgage free and a contribution to her loans.  I also gave her all the household items.  I have no further obligation to her save for child maintenance which I pay very willingly.  The law is not fair and when the mother "plays the system" the father will be disadvantaged.  The solace that I take is that my boys are well provided for financially and that hopefully the hardwork that I put in in establishing a nice family home will be passed to them in the form of an inheritance from my ex. She may have benefited financially but sadly I believe that she will never be happy.

Negatives:
•   I take a pittance financially from the house and the years of hardwork, but with hardwork and prudency I will eventually be able to secure a small property which I will have to furnish from scratch.
* Clean break - I can move on with no connection
•   Loss of dreams and expected future
•   Sadness and question whether ex really was who I initially thought she was
•   Made me more cautious and more guarded with people

Positives:
•   Wonderful relationship with my children – freedom, no checking over my shoulder, no bad mouthing of Dad, boys are free to form their own opinion of me and my family.  Less quantity but much much better quality
•   Great honest holidays and time with boys – camping, fires, outdoors, mud!! Their mother would never do these things
•   Rebuilt relationship with wonderful family and friends
•   "Normal" life -  My future is within my own influence and I am able to shape where it goes

If you've read this far well done!!!!! 

Key message is stay strong no matter how bad and nasty it gets, trust in yourself.   There were many many times that without the support of my family she may have come close to destroying me and I would have given in to her bullying just to end the stress.  I am proud that I have not lost one day of work despite all the stress and vileness.  My future is there to be rebuilt (I am fortunate to have a well paid job and that there was equity in the property.  Without this my future would have been  different). 

Stay strong, good luck 

My son has been living in the U.K. for the past dozen years and has been married for the past 6; they have a pre-schooler and a new baby. When they married,  she seemed slightly anxious with a little OCD but since the first pregnancy, she has become more and more difficult, throwing public tantrums like a toddler, belittling him in front of the kids, accusing him of having affairs, texting and calling him endlessly at work, and even hitting him. My son's European father also lives in the U.K. and his sister is there frequently for work, so he does have some family support, but his wife does her best to isolate him and her parents blame him. And to top it off, he is the family's sole support and financially struggling. This past summer I sent a book on living with someone with BPD to him at his office and he took it home, where she found it, so she is punishing me by refusing to let me see their children, including the new baby. It's very hard not to take this personally even though intellectually  I know she is deliberately doing this to drive a wedge between us.
Any suggestions on how to help him and the kids? I live on another continent.

Hi, as female in the uk with a non diagnosed but i strongly suspect narcissistic personality disordered mother, i totally emphasise with you brave men, your lives sound like a living hell and my heart goes out to you all. I have watched one of my husbands friends be put through a living hell after he split with a horrid women. What I don't understand is why the men in most relationships that finish when there are kids end up being ripped off so badly financially it makes me mad, we are suppose to live in a equal society now a days but clearly this is bullsxxt why the women can't work and everything be equal is completely beyond me.

Sending love and hugs to you all.

Quote from: judithr on February 02, 2017, 05:49:30 PM
My son has been living in the U.K. for the past dozen years and has been married for the past 6; they have a pre-schooler and a new baby. When they married,  she seemed slightly anxious with a little OCD but since the first pregnancy, she has become more and more difficult, throwing public tantrums like a toddler, belittling him in front of the kids, accusing him of having affairs, texting and calling him endlessly at work, and even hitting him. My son's European father also lives in the U.K. and his sister is there frequently for work, so he does have some family support, but his wife does her best to isolate him and her parents blame him. And to top it off, he is the family's sole support and financially struggling. This past summer I sent a book on living with someone with BPD to him at his office and he took it home, where she found it, so she is punishing me by refusing to let me see their children, including the new baby. It's very hard not to take this personally even though intellectually  I know she is deliberately doing this to drive a wedge between us.
Any suggestions on how to help him and the kids? I live on another continent.

Sounds so similar to my situation and wife. Only thing to do is leave but it's the hardest thing to do, I try and get by as best I can but have moments of absolute fury when I see what my life has become and how she's dragging us all down to her level.

I'd certainly love to leave but closeness to my kids and relative financial comfort stops me. I have no attraction to my wife anymore.

Wondered if there are any more UK dads out there

Hey Crushed_Dad,
I'm not in the UK (wish I were), but like most dads on here I'm drowning/in free-fall and am clutching at anything that looks like it might keep me alive, and as this is the least-dead thread on the "Non-PD Dads" board, I'm hollering back (even if it is only to shout into the void).
I hear you re: the things that are stopping you leaving (even as there seems there is nothing to be done BUT leave). In my case it's my lack of employment/career (largely because I am only now after 25 years emerging from my life of co-dependency, during which all "choices" were made to satisfy her) and my fear that the kids will not accept it. My kids still need their mother to be OK, not unfit, as I fear my departure would declare her to be; I'm also afraid I might alienate them by leaving, ending what little positive influence I still exercise over their development and what little protection I provide for their sanity by being the sole voice of reason, justice and civility in their lives (a presence they have more or less told me they are afraid of losing; not to mention that she already enslaves the children with her sadness, which I fear would only be made worse by definitively "judging" her). Yeah, a lot of fear here.
That said, I may come to a point where I have to risk everything (including my kids' unhappiness, the thought of which kills me) and break away, particularly if I am ever going to become provident enough to provide my children with another place to exist, a place of refuge and perspective, as other dads on here have done, or tried to do. (Maybe I really will have to come to the UK to make that place somewhere entirely beyond her reach and influence.) 
Anyway, just wanted to reach out here, in order that you might be reminded (again) that you're not alone (as much as to remind myself that I'm not).
S@H
(PS. Shout out to Received Mispronunciation for apologizing for "abuse journaling." Journal away, man. Going back and looking at the record of wtf actually happened and has been consistently happening is a good antidote to the gaslighting.)

Hi guys,
Wow crushed Dad. This whole situation that we face is so desperately horrible and we often feel helpless. I like many have tried to leave and nearly got to the point of divorce but just got hovered back in mostly because I missed my boys and she was actively preventing me from seeing them.

I have turned a corner and started being different with my wife. I have made the concerted effort to no longer be a victim to her rages and awful behaviour. I have taken a lot of time to reflect on this and now act in a completely different way in that I regard her as an irritation that can be ignored. The foundation for this was to fully understand my own boundaries and needs and although I was initially scared of the anger and rage that would inevitably come of this I took it for what it was which is essentially her own hatred for herself. I have no attraction to my wife anymore, as I have seen so many of you say but my love for my kids is my driving force and focus and her needs no longer interest me.....and she knows it. This has worked for me and it won't work for everyone but I wanted to come on to here and empathise with you guys and say that it is so helpful knowing that I am not alone in this and that I am not the only one that struggles with this on a daily basis.

My thoughts are with you all

Buzz, it's nice to hear you're able to employ the tools here and get some success.

Personally I on't think that'll ever be possible with my wife for a few reasons, 1. I don't think I can regulate my emotions in the heat of battle to navigate he minefield she'll lay down successfully. 2. I think she'll eat me up easily if I tried.

I think now it had reached the point where my relationship with the kids is being so negatively impacted by my presence in the house and the way I'm strung up it may now be actually better to live in my dads spare room 60 miles away. I've been away 3 days and miss them beyond words.

Crushed,
I can empathize with you.  When i started putting up boundaries to the controlling behavior, the rages intensified.
Couples counseling caused the rages to become more frequent and intense.
If I did something to benefit or protect the kids, she would try to turn the kids against me (and the rages would intensify).
The aggressive pressure for me to always do as she said was excruciating and often times i caved and did what she wanted even if it was not the best thing for me or the kids.

I also had to leave at times to keep from exposing the kids to conflict, arguments or to avoid abusive situations.
It feels terrible to leave your kids but at times you have no choice.  It is better to leave temporarily than to have them witness abusive behavior.

My message for you is to not give up.
Many here have gone through very similar situations. (both men and women)
I was able to leave with the kids and get a protective order.
It took a lot of help from a lot of other people, so start building your network.
Go to support groups if you can, see a therapist, talk to family and friends, find a lawyer, document everything.
Don't give up on yourself or your kids.  You can do this.

Quote from: Findingmyvoice on December 17, 2018, 05:20:58 PM
Crushed,
I can empathize with you.  When i started putting up boundaries to the controlling behavior, the rages intensified.
Couples counseling caused the rages to become more frequent and intense.
If I did something to benefit or protect the kids, she would try to turn the kids against me (and the rages would intensify).
The aggressive pressure for me to always do as she said was excruciating and often times i caved and did what she wanted even if it was not the best thing for me or the kids.

I also had to leave at times to keep from exposing the kids to conflict, arguments or to avoid abusive situations.
It feels terrible to leave your kids but at times you have no choice.  It is better to leave temporarily than to have them witness abusive behavior.

My message for you is to not give up.
Many here have gone through very similar situations. (both men and women)
I was able to leave with the kids and get a protective order.
It took a lot of help from a lot of other people, so start building your network.
Go to support groups if you can, see a therapist, talk to family and friends, find a lawyer, document everything.
Don't give up on yourself or your kids.  You can do this.

thanks Finding, I feel like all the ammunition is now stacked up against me, she has incidences of me raging like Saturday and an issue over the summer when I yelled at her mate (who my wife was constantly telling me was letting her down). There have been several others too. Saturday was the key though, that's the only real time the kids have actually witnessed a full blown meltdown, fortunately it was and has only ever been shouting.

I've let all this stuff sit inside burning away for so long that I'm really struggling to keep it in and I find I lose my temper far more easily these days because I just yearn for an escape.

The baiting, loaded questions, traps, threats, accusations have been so frequent and so often I struggle to keep count. I've just found a diary I've kept at work that I've not updated since Sept 2017.

The sad thing is I can't afford either a counsellor  or lawyer and have a feeling I'll be paying her legal fees when the time arises too.


Have you left for good? How do you manage?

My advice is to find an outlet for your anger, don't direct it at your wife.
Talking to people helps, I found that the men's group i went to was good for that.
Just talking about it, getting it in the open, expressing your anger, frustration, sadness whatever it is and having people listen is helpful.
It cost $15 for each drop in, it was affordable and having other people weigh in on your situation will help you to address what your own issues are.
We all have our own issues that need to be dealt with also.

The domestic violence center in our area provided some free counseling to me and my wife both together and separately.
They only offered a limited number of sessions, but it was still helpful.  It exposed some of my ex's behaviors.

Start writing in your diary again.  You must do this for yourself.
at one point I was really down and something that was helpful to me was to write 2 things each day that I did well, small successes or victories, and maybe one goal for tomorrow.  the goal can be something small like making a commitment to write in your journal again tomorrow or giving up your daily coffee, beer , whatever and saving the money for something that will help more in the long run, or getting up 10 minutes early to go for a walk before work.
It sounds simple and foolish but it will actually help if you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

We all slip sometimes.  You are under a lot of stress, so don't be too hard on yourself about it.
Make a promise to yourself to do better next time.
It will be helpful for you to practice keeping your cool at all times with your wife.

I am fortunate that I have a good job, but at the moment I will not be able to afford my legal fees either.
Most of my income is going to support my ex, 75% goes to her and only 25% to me and the kids.
Of the 25% I have left, half of that goes to fixed expenses for the kids like school fees, extracurriculars, education savings.  The rest just pays for fuel for my vehicle and some groceries.
I am living with my parents, they are largely supporting us.
The legal system is absurd.  It goes both ways, I have heard stories of battered mothers receiving $1 per month child support.
Sometimes we like to think that men get the short end of the stick but its not always true.

I have left for good.
No reason for me to go back to her ever.
In our relationship I gave and she took.
She took to the point that I had nothing left to give, physically, emotionally, financially.
In return all I got from her was criticism, blame, accusations, threats, insults, control, stalking, harassment and abuse.
I can't go back to that.

In my situation my ex became very aggressive towards me and at times towards the kids.
I had lots of proof of her behavior from professionals.  Children's services, psych ward hospitalizations, police reports, domestic violence counselors, her employer.
The key is to expose the harmful behaviors if there are any.  Journaling is good, but if you can have someone else witness its much better.

It sounds like you've things a lot more difficult than me from  the experiences you've listed. I hope that things can carry on getting better for you and the finances improve. May I ask how old you are?

I'll find it very difficult to attend meeting etc, My commute and working day takes up 13 hours of my day. By the time I'm home all I want to do is eat and not do anything. I'm thinking if I'm living with my dad I might begin some study again as that will help with job security and future prospects down the line. As well as giving me something to aspire to and some measure of success as you've mentioned.
I also need to spend an hour each day journal-ing and listing out any correspondence. Especially given now, the penny has dropped on my wife the situation she could be facing and the hoover is well and truly out.

I know I'll face all the things you've listed if I go back too, yet being close to my kids and financially independence are so close to making that all worthwhile. I'm being told my little boy is getting more and more upset the longer I'm not there and it breaks my heart. I'd be kicking the can down the road as I'm sure we have and even though I made a promise that I never want my kids to see like Saturday ever again, by going back , the chances increase exponentially.

It's so hard knowing what to do for the best.

like you, I kept going back because of my kids.
My ex would ask why I left and tell me that leaving made the kids upset.  She guilted me because she had to explain to the kids why i left.
I found later she mostly lied to them about the reasons why i left.  She could not take accountability or tell them the things she said and did.
She blamed me and told them that she made me leave because i was violent (which was completely opposite of what really happened).

I'm sure that my kids were actually upset, but it was better for me to leave than have them exposed to the situation between me and my wife.
You do need to protect them and do what is best for them.  This can be your mantra for how you deal with your wife.
Your kids need you to be strong, if you decide to go back they need you to show them how to deal with difficult situations properly instead of displaying anger.
Even leaving when things are out of control teaches the kids that they don't have to put up with abuse.
Turning and walking away if you are being abused is a better reaction than yelling and shouting.

You have to decide what to do.  If you can learn to cope long term, or maybe just cope long enough to get out.
Or maybe you have already had enough and are not going back.  That's something that you have to decide.

Making some time to journal is definitely important.

Quote from: Findingmyvoice on December 19, 2018, 03:43:54 PM
like you, I kept going back because of my kids.
My ex would ask why I left and tell me that leaving made the kids upset.  She guilted me because she had to explain to the kids why i left.
I found later she mostly lied to them about the reasons why i left.  She could not take accountability or tell them the things she said and did.
She blamed me and told them that she made me leave because i was violent (which was completely opposite of what really happened).

I'm sure that my kids were actually upset, but it was better for me to leave than have them exposed to the situation between me and my wife.
You do need to protect them and do what is best for them.  This can be your mantra for how you deal with your wife.
Your kids need you to be strong, if you decide to go back they need you to show them how to deal with difficult situations properly instead of displaying anger.
Even leaving when things are out of control teaches the kids that they don't have to put up with abuse.
Turning and walking away if you are being abused is a better reaction than yelling and shouting.

You have to decide what to do.  If you can learn to cope long term, or maybe just cope long enough to get out.
Or maybe you have already had enough and are not going back.  That's something that you have to decide.

Making some time to journal is definitely important.

Your counsel is incredibly helpful. Thank you for your guidance......

I know deep down the right thing to do is to leave but there are a number things which are really causing me to consider staying.... I need to try and come to a decision about this....

Advantages of staying.....

Being around the children daily!!!

Financial Stability
- not living in my father's spare room for 10+ years
- being able to have days out and even a holiday with the children once a year.
- ability to change my 16 year old car for something new in the not too distant future
- not having a season ticket increase of £1100
- not having to pay £20 a week car parking at train station
- Not incurring an extra £40 a week in fuel charges)
- All of this before we get to division of assets.

Commute Stability
- Since I've left I've arrived late to work every day but need to be on that train in case required to connect to work early
- It's a 75 minute trip each way to see the children from my father's house.

Not fulfilling the life I had planned for the children or me


Disadvantages of staying

Have little or no input to family activities, long term direction.

Having my fathering undermined when it deviates from her will

Being subjected to abuse, threats, accusations, blackmail when my actions or thought process deviates from her will

Having her family and and school kids parents influenced against me

Possibility I may not be able to keep my cool

Not fulfilling the life I had planned for the children or me

It's sooooo hard and my father has taken pity on the situation, he doesn't know what to suggest or what to say. It's such a crazy situation....

Crushed,

Great job on writing out the pros and cons!

I also did this to make my decision.
Next step is to think about what your values are and decide what you value more.
Is it more important for you to have financial stability and more time with your kids or is it more important for you to live a life free from control and abuse?
And if you decide to stay, can you you find ways to manage, limit (hopefully stop) the abuse and cope?
Use the toolbox!
I would never recommend someone going back into an abusive relationship, but many do.  It depends on the situation.

I found my values got lost in our relationship.  I had to really sit down and think about what my values were and then it became clearer to me.
It took time.  Lots of time.  It also took a lot of work to think and write things down, I could not actually do it when I was around my wife, I needed time away from her influence and constant pressure in order to think straight.
I needed to talk to other people, family, friends, support group, counselor, social workers, etc. to get my priorities straight.

Once you make a decision and accept that it was your decision you regain some control of your situation.
You take accountability for the outcome even if you can't control the outcome. 
I had to accept that it was going to be difficult financially, that I would give up my possessions, that my wife would try to shame me publicly (and she did), the court battles, her trying to turn the kids against me, etc, etc.
I decided that being in a relationship with her was not worth all of the rest of it.  I also decided that staying with her was not best for my kids.
In the end I feel like I still made the right decision.
My kids now live most of the time in a drama-free home.  They can relax and be themselves, they are not living in fear of emotional or physical abuse.  Their grades are better in school, they know their family and grandparents (under wife's regime they were not allowed to).
I am much healthier and happier and that alone is better for the kids.

Your kids need you in their life either way.  I don't know what the laws are there, but here the courts aim for 50/50 parenting unless one parent is clearly unfit.

Again, it is awesome to see that you are taking the proper steps to make a decision.
Writing things down is a very important part of what you have to do.
This way you can look back and remind yourself why you made the decision and what your values are.
You are a good father and your kids deserve to have you in their life and you deserve to be in theirs.

Crushed,

How was the holiday season?
I noticed you have not been on the forum in a few weeks.
How are things going?

All,

This was a really interesting discussion for me. I too am in the UK and at a much earlier stage than most i.e. know I need to leave the martial home but currently have nowhere to go to due to limited funds. My wife is adamant that she can change, after me going through 2 years of pain and suffering with her not bothering at all. Only at the point where I literally announced my intent did she change. IMO it's too little too late and I can honestly say I have fallen out of love for her.

I have 3 amazing kids, who have been affected by her BPD in more ways than I could describe. She has no income whatsoever and I have been responsible for everything for a very long time! 

Everything right now seems very daunting, plunging me back into a depressed state (which I thought I had gotten out of over the past 2 years).  Marriage counselling done (she cancelled after 4 sessions),  she had an online affair for 4/5months....the list goes on. All of this has created a gulf for me, I am simply no longer interested in being in this relationship.

She is now laying it on thick (its only taken 2 bloody years) but I am just not interested....full stop

I am keen to understand how people are getting on.

Quote from: Findingmyvoice on January 07, 2019, 04:23:32 PM
Crushed,

How was the holiday season?
I noticed you have not been on the forum in a few weeks.
How are things going?

No different really, it all keeps going round in circles, same as ever. Whilst there's no stand up arguments I just keep myself to myself.

Not journalling or anything anymore either. Not really seeing the point.

Given up to a certain extent.

In addition one of my major releases (distance running) has been taken away via injury.

I hope things are ok for you.

Quote from: Thomas5244 on March 15, 2019, 02:35:06 AM
All,

This was a really interesting discussion for me. I too am in the UK and at a much earlier stage than most i.e. know I need to leave the martial home but currently have nowhere to go to due to limited funds. My wife is adamant that she can change, after me going through 2 years of pain and suffering with her not bothering at all. Only at the point where I literally announced my intent did she change. IMO it's too little too late and I can honestly say I have fallen out of love for her.

I have 3 amazing kids, who have been affected by her BPD in more ways than I could describe. She has no income whatsoever and I have been responsible for everything for a very long time! 

Everything right now seems very daunting, plunging me back into a depressed state (which I thought I had gotten out of over the past 2 years).  Marriage counselling done (she cancelled after 4 sessions),  she had an online affair for 4/5months....the list goes on. All of this has created a gulf for me, I am simply no longer interested in being in this relationship.

She is now laying it on thick (its only taken 2 bloody years) but I am just not interested....full stop

I am keen to understand how people are getting on.

Thomas, in a similar boat. The thing is we're pretty much hamstrung unless we have adequate funds to make a transition as harmless as possible.

I can only deal with it one way. Focus on work and keeping friendships alive outside the family.

My wife has totally divided our family and too an extent I've allowed that to happen too via anger triggered by helplessness.

I just try and think of the kids and hope that by having a financially secure-ish, semi-happy home I'm doing less damage than living in poverty 60 miles away.

I wish there were answers but everywhere I've looked it seems it's all stacked against us.

Crushed_Dad,

I am sorry to hear this. I took the plunge over the weekend and called it a day, after 18 years of marriage. It was not easy and I am still suffering the consequences. I just couldn't do it anymore, I deserve to be happy and one gets just one chance in this life. It was the hardest thing I've ever done but I stick by my decision, even though I am now deep in the FOG. Guilt is the hardest and most brutal feeling right now, questioning whether I have done the right thing, am I being selfish, have I destroyed the family? It requires a constant reminder that I have indeed done this for the right reasons, this will pass and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I have booked some time with a therapist on Friday as I need to start working on myself, regaining some degree of confidence and strength for what's to come.

We all deserve to be treated fairly, have feelings reciprocated and be happy in the relationships in a balanced fashion.

Good for you, I hope it brings you what you need and hope the future path can go as smoothly as possible for you considering what you're dealing with.

I wish I had your strength but I do have a plan.....

Crushed,

Good to hear from you.
Keep your chin up.  Perhaps journaling is not your thing, but make sure that you have some outlet.
Keep coming here or find a friend or family member that can support you emotionally.

There will be ups and downs, that is inevitable.
Whatever your decision, embrace it and keep focused on "why" you are doing it.

Quote from: Findingmyvoice on March 20, 2019, 01:57:26 PM
Crushed,

Good to hear from you.
Keep your chin up.  Perhaps journaling is not your thing, but make sure that you have some outlet.
Keep coming here or find a friend or family member that can support you emotionally.

There will be ups and downs, that is inevitable.
Whatever your decision, embrace it and keep focused on "why" you are doing it.

I wish I had time to journal, being part of it, also wish i had the ability to deconstruct and carefully remember why all the things happen and what's exactly occurred. Half the time I'm not particularly proud of my reactions though either. I'm very much a fight fire with fire type of person, wish it wasn't always the case but it's ingrained, probably from seeing my father desperately frustrated by my mum and her will. I engage far too much, I know that and I know it doesn't help matters, certainly if the kids are present.

The issue we have is that we can go months with nothing but very small scale episodes and lots of things I'll brush under the carpet at the time but are snowballing in the back of my head as the resentment grows. Then when something I find completely unreasonable happens all that negativity that has manifested will release too.

We're currently hardly talking, once our eldest is asleep we re-watch old Game of Thrones in silence (in preparation for last series until it's time to go to sleep. Up at 6am, work til 6pm, shower, get ignored by the kids til they go to bed, eat dinner, repeat. 5 days of the week.

It's like clockwork.

Just wanted to say hi, and I hope you guys don't mind a 'us mom's hanging out here with you. Sometimes I find I can relate most to you guys.
Married for over25 years, most of those deep in the fog. Almost left about15 years ago But was afraid uPDh wouldn't let me take ds, and was afraid to leave ds with uPDh. Now ds is21, in college, I've signed on to school loans and committed to helping pay them. I make more than uPDh and was told if I leave I'll likely have to pay him support :( mostly because he is unable or unwilling to work a regularfull-time job...it's beneath him. Anyway thanks for letting me hang out.

Quote from: 11JB68 on March 23, 2019, 10:36:03 PM
Just wanted to say hi, and I hope you guys don't mind a 'us mom's hanging out here with you. Sometimes I find I can relate most to you guys.
Married for over25 years, most of those deep in the fog. Almost left about15 years ago But was afraid uPDh wouldn't let me take ds, and was afraid to leave ds with uPDh. Now ds is21, in college, I've signed on to school loans and committed to helping pay them. I make more than uPDh and was told if I leave I'll likely have to pay him support :( mostly because he is unable or unwilling to work a regularfull-time job...it's beneath him. Anyway thanks for letting me hang out.

It's cos we're stuck in the same steaming pile of sh1t ultimately.

Crushed,

You have to make time to do things with your kids.  Start by setting aside 15 or 20 minutes once a week to sit down with them and have some family time.
Plan to do something that they enjoy, or teach them something you enjoy, make it goofy and fun.  The kids need to see you smile once in a while.
My sister in law was trying to help us for a while when things were really bad, once a week she would send us a challenge to do with the kids.
Sometimes exBPDw would participate, other times she would work against us the entire time.  But I still made sure that we made time to do it whether she cooperated or not.

Some of the things we did:
Thumb wrestling. We each drew a character on our thumb using pen or sharpie then had "matches" leading up to the exciting gold medal round. (trash talk about how you are going to take them down, but let the kids win) exBPDw pouted about not winning this one and me praising the kids instead of her, she took the trash talk seriously.
Family crest: we discussed our values as a family and our individual strengths then we put it all together as a family crest and posted it on the wall. exBPDw pouted about this one too, she was upset that not everyone listened to her ideas.  We collected ideas from everyone but she thought hers were better so she refused to participate.
mannequin challenge: This was an internet challenge a while ago, take a video of the family doing something frozen in time, search it up on the internet to get an idea.  You will be amazed at the ideas kids come up with. even exBPDw had fun with this one!

Think of things that you enjoyed when you were younger, draw a comic strip, do a craft, build something, cook, teach those kids to do the things you know how to do!
This probably isn't socially acceptable nowadays, but I still remember my grandfather showing me how he rolled cigarettes when I was 4 or 5 years old.
This is the fun part of being a parent.  Parenting is hard work, but teaching and watching your kids learn new things is very rewarding.
My kids are 12 and 14 now so my dad and I are teaching my son to drive, how to fix bicycles and my daughters are very creative and mom and I are teaching them to sew, draw, paint, grow plants.

You can read to them if they are younger, I made a point of spending a few nights a week reading a chapter to them before bed.
It takes 15 or 20 minutes and it is something your kids will remember forever.
We read The Hobbit, The Journey of Edward Tulane, The Life of Pi and a few others.
If they are younger,do something messy like finger painting, or go catch frogs and tadpoles, splash in puddles, dance and sing or put on a puppet show with socks and a cardboard box. 

Making time for a weekly family meeting to discuss things that effect your family is a good idea too.  I found it incredibly difficult because exBPDw would sidetrack it and make it about herself and whatever perceived wrongs happened to her during the week.  I had to work very hard to keep it from becoming a blame-fest because she would us it as an opportunity to tell everyone what they had done wrong in the last week.  Then everyone would get defensive and it turned into a bad situation.
I still did it though, I mediated my living heart out and showed the kids how to deal with her.

I know it's hard when you are bearing the weight of supporting the family, a dysfunctional relationship with your spouse, looking after kids, etc. but in the end you will be glad you made the effort.
You have the ability to do this, and you are the one that has to make it happen.  No one else is going to do it for you.
Not only is this something you should do, it is something you must do.  Take the time, make it a priority.  Be a leader for your children.

This seems bad now, because it is.  But you have to accept responsibility that it is up to you to make it better.
Refuse to be a victim!
The other option is to accept that steaming pile you describe and allow yourself to be stuck.

11JB, you can hang out here any time you want!  Glad to see that someone is using this part of the forum!

Don't get me wrong we do a lot, but all of it is policed by her, there's no way I could possibly take them out for more than an hour without her being present and the only reason she's present is to criticise.

We go on walks, bike rides, play football out the front of the house, go football training, go to the cinema, do his homework (when time allows), play hide and seek etc. Last week I took them to a farm-play park. Trust me they're not left wanting for time spent with us but as said all under the watchful eye.

My father has just bought a kayak and I'm hoping we can go out on it over the summer, she's already registered her disdain but hoping when my lad sees it he'll be so excited she wont be able to say no.

My lad is 6 and my little girl almost 4.5 and she's still not spent a night under a different roof to them. She control everything and wonders why I'm dis-interested. Even football practice has been taken away from me .

We will split one day, we're both resigned to that fact and in full acceptance but for reasons already noted keep charade going. As soon as we split and I have time with my kids without her presence they'll be a significant shift I would think.

One problem I've had with uPDh is that he gets extremely jealous of any time I spend alone with ds.

It's great that you are spending time with them!
I had the same problem with exBPDw having to control things.
If activities were not approved by her or not going her way she would get very difficult, make excuses, imagine catastrophes that could happen, get blamey, hold back, argue, etc.
When I started talking to the kids more at bed time she would make excuses as to why I shouldn't, she would come up with other things I had to do immediately, she would change bed time for the kids,  start cutting me down in front of the kids, etc.

So all that to say, it's a common struggle.

On the other hand, parenting decisions should have equal input.  No one parent makes unilateral decisions.
Your spouse should not be making it difficult for you to do things with your kids.
If it's that lopsided for either parent,
I often heard "I decide because I'm their mother" "Mother always knows what is best".

I know it's hard to pull out of the dynamic that you have with your wife, but can you just say flat out "It seems like you don't trust me with our children" or "Why won't you not let me do things with my own children? What is your concern?" or "
With personality disorders there is a massive insecurity driving their actions.
Perhaps getting her to voice her concern or insecurity then validating it may change her tune?
There is a possibility she will come up with something  completely absurd that makes no sense at all (trust me I have heard almost every one out there).  Read a little bit on personality disorders and all of the books have the same approach if you truly want to get along with her.  Validation.

"I understand you think rabid mutant alligators will submerge our kayak and devour us whole.  That sounds very frightening.  Is there anything I can do to make you feel better about our kayaking trip?  I will take all the safety precautions that I feel are necessary."

You can expect push back, but then you need to put up a boundary.
Don't argue, defend or engage in other shenanigans.

"No, I will not be cancelling my trip with our son but I will call you when we are done so that you do not worry"
If's she's anything like my ex, she will twist and turn like she's being exorcised when you say the word "no".

I do understand Finding, I really do but the simple thing is I really can be bothered and don't have the required will/energy. I have very little time left in my life outside work that I don't see the point worrying about how I should conduct my every last step away from it. I'm an adult and I treat people how I expect to be treated, and if others make it too difficult, or make my life unhappy, I simply don't entertain them and can't be bothered with her. As such, I try and make the most of my time with the kids as I get it, but it's not what I'd like whilst under her governance.

I'm certain she is hell bent on sabotaging every single thing about my life and relationships with others, yet still says she wants me to be happy!!?? She has no realisation that it's her behaviour that makes me miserable, our life and lack of anything interaction as a family unit with other people outside family or people she likes. She then goes around to her mother and friends getting all the "enablement" she doesn't get from me and the validation of her one-sided BS that she'll spout about me. She will reject this though on things I've said or done though, usually in reaction to unreasonable behaviour in the first instance.

I've asked her frequently why she rejects or has to argue with everything I suggest or do, her answer?

"I don't do that"

In the end I just laugh at the absurdity of it all and walk away.

there's a lot f interesting comments at the end of the article below....

I would imagine there's a large number of people in a similar situation as us on here with it going largely unreported....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/ditching-marriage-might-biggest-mistakegeneration-z-makes/#comments (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/ditching-marriage-might-biggest-mistakegeneration-z-makes/#comments)

Looks like we're heading for the fourth separation period of a 5 year marriage.

Quote from: kiwihelen on April 21, 2016, 04:12:21 AM
Crushed Dad, there are a lot of UK fathers on Shrink4Men forum who have negotiated 50:50 custody.

That's right.

Quote from: Sniperon on October 29, 2019, 10:47:44 AM

Quote from: kiwihelen on April 21, 2016, 04:12:21 AM
Crushed Dad, there are a lot of UK fathers on Shrink4Men forum who have negotiated 50:50 custody.

That's right.

Although I appreciate the input and that's refreshing to hear I would rather not get 50:50 custody if I'm working or commuting 13 hours a day. I would rather the kids not spend time with non-family carers.

I've left the house again. After some pretty shocking behaviour from myself and my wife on Saturday morning and typically in front of the kids.

This has happened plenty of times before and her hoover is already out, all based on the fact that I'm the one who needs help and that she's little miss perfect according to all her friends and mother. She's also saying that it's me who'll ruin Xmas for everyone especially the children.

I've been down for a number of months now, it's just a culmination of many things and a realisation of where life is for all of us. I'm medicating this by the pub, basically trying to make myself feel awful physically to match my mental mood and phase out everything that's wrong in my life. All of time this is just alienating the family from me and giving my wife all the ammunition she needs to propel her propaganda to all and sundry. Although I didn't hit her I did grab her on Sunday morning and wanted to kick her down the stairs, she was goading me on the basis that I said I might as well jump in front of a train given where life has ended up for us. It's just another example of awful levels I've stopped to and terrible choices I've made in the face of her provocation. There's too many examples to rattle off now. The only way out is to remove myself from the firing line.

Obviously this is why I had to leave. My fear is if I keep going back this could escalate and I'm scared that if I get any kind of criminal record I lose my job and they'll inevitably lose the house. One of us has to be mature enough to say enough is enough although another fear is that we've been here plenty of times before.

I don't worry for the immediate welfare of the kids as with any true BPD she lives purely for them and wants them to have the life she didn't. I already miss them terribly but the fact is that they don't even know the real me, they know the miserable guy who's taken his frustrations out on them in the past, who comes in hungover as he's trying to block out his misery and who's just not a very nice guy.

Crushed,
Likewise, i have done and said things that I regret.
I have acted in ways that were immature and not helpful to the situation.
I have turned to crushing beers in front of the TV very night to avoid dealing with my wife or to forget about our problems.
I can't change the past, I can only change what I do now and in the future.

Now for the hard advice.
It's up to you to change this.  You can choose how you react and how you deal with the stresses.
Only you can decide what you do with your time (going to the pub and drinking too much) and how you deal with conflict.
I understand that it is hard, things are difficult to deal with but you need to find healthy ways to deal with them.
It will eventually get better.  It might be pure shit right now but believe me it won't always be that way.
Your children need you in their life and they need you to be healthy.
If you can't change for your own good, do it for them.

I found that when I changed how I was coping and how I dealt with conflict it actually made my life harder with my ex.
One would think that your partner would be happy when you completely stop drinking, start taking care of yourself and stop arguing and getting upset.  In my case it was the exact opposite.  My ex didn't care about me, only what I could do for her.  This was what spurred me to leave as well as for the wellbeing of my children.
In a way I  think my ex liked it when I was down, it made her feel better and when I started to change she actually tried harder to keep me down.
The biggest thing that helped me change was journaling and going to therapy.
Get yourself a notebook and see a therapist, in my experience these were the tools I needed to make the necessary changes.
Use this situation as a catalyst and take the time to work on yourself.

Or don't and keep heading down the path you are on.  You get to choose.

Crushed,
Sorry, but I have more hard advice for you.
You need to be truly honest with yourself.
This is one of the hardest things to do, but it is absolutely necessary if you want to see the changes that are required.

In one of your earlier posts you said that you treat others the way you want to be treated.
Is this true? Or is it only some of the time?

In one of your previous posts you talk about not wanting to spend the time or energy, you "can't be bothered by her", "you don't see the point worrying about your every last step".  All of these comments sound to me like you just don't want to do the work that is required.
I can tell you from experience that what is coming next will be much, much more work.

You also talk about her actions making you miserable.  So what are you going to do about it?
You can't change her actions, but you are responsible for your own happiness. 
You being miserable is completely under your control.  You will be happier when you take responsibility for your own happiness, make a decision and own it and live according to your values.

I'm talking about truly changing the way that you view yourself and others and how you deal with conflict.
If you decide to separate, your spouse will likely be much tougher to deal with than she is now and you are going to have to be that much more careful of your own actions.  When it comes to child custody, the initial months and years after separation are really what tell the judge who is the better parent, not what happened during the relationship.
I'm not talking about just trying to act differently, but asking yourself "why did I react this way?" or "why do I do this?" or "does this align with my values?" "do my actions agree with what I think and say about myself?".
Once you understand why and you address that problem you will actually start to change the way you think.

Often we act in anger or retreat into bad habits when we are afraid.  Afraid of being seen as weak, afraid of losing control, afraid of being hurt emotionally, afraid of losing relationships, afraid of losing financial security, afraid of failing.
These are all real things to be afraid of, but you need to face them. 
Be honest, be humble, be vulnerable, be authentic with yourself.
Think about this when you think about your nights at the pub and your arguments in front of the children.
What are you afraid of?  Does getting drunk or arguing help with that? Probably not.

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming you and I'm not saying that this is all your fault.  It's not.
But you are responsible for your half.  This is the part that you have to be accountable for.

Finding, thanks for the time and thought you've put in to our correspondence.... I struggle to have anyone to speak to who understands what goes on. My father tries having had my mother put him under similar stresses but it was at a 5/10 compared to the 8-9/10 he thinks I'm living with.

The hardest part at the moment is that whilst being honest with myself I'm neither strong enough or motivated enough to make anything happen. I see all of the outcomes and none of them are anywhere close to what I'd like. And yes, it appears that right now I'm not treating others the way I'd like to be treated. I'm depressed, jealous, disappointed, resentful, guilty, frustrated but most of all just very angry. And no, my actions and reactions certainly do not align with what I say or believe in. I'm a hypocrite in that regard. But I am responsible enough to acknowledge it and take responsibility for it.

You're right I don't want to do the work that's required to have a life with my wife.

I don't know what I'm going to do about it. I have no plan, few resources and about 2.5 hours between getting home for the day and going to sleep in order to get up and doing it all again.

I'm not antagonising the situation. Everything monetarily will continue to be provided.

Currently I'm afraid of my entire future, life will never be what I'd like it to be with or without my family. I'm afraid of the consequences of going down either route. Every choice I've made in recent times (especially this year) has ended in disaster. I've chosen not to be around my children, just yesterday I had my bike stolen from work, I've had knee surgery this year as a result of choosing to go down off-road dips on bike, I've been told I've permanently damaged my ankle as a result of choices made running, I've lost thousands as a result of booking a family holiday and by leaving the house I'm currently incurring an additional £200 a week in travel costs.

Right now I feel I have the weight of my whole family pushing down on me, normally I'd do anything to prop it up and push it higher but with everything and what normally happens as a result, I just feel like getting squashed.

I know that's not the way to deal with it btw, I know what the right choices are going forward, I just don't think I'm capable enough to carry them out.

My father said to me yesterday, I don't know how you do it, how you carry on, I couldn't, it was never this bad for me. My response was, I have to, there's no other choice.

Crushed,
I know it seems hopeless right now.
You will come out of this entire experience as a stronger person.
You have the support of your dad, which is a great thing to be thankful for.
When I left, my parents were there for me, even though they had been treated poorly by me in the past.
This was another one of my regrets, under intense pressure from my ex we didn't see them much and they didn't see our kids for months and years at a time.

You are not a hypocrite.  Everyone makes mistakes. You are allowed to make mistakes.
Be kind to yourself, but also be honest with yourself and make the effort to not make the mistake again.
Write down the mistake you made and write down what you are going to do next time when the situation comes up.

You are definitely capable enough to carry out the right choices going forward.
You are stronger than you know.

One of the things that I did was write down in my journal every day, three small goals for the next day.
It takes about five minutes.
They were small things like get to bed on time, spend 10 minutes with my kids, walk the dog, etc.
Healthy habits and good choices.
The next day go back and see which ones you accomplished, it gives you a small sense of reward and accomplishment. 
It helps you to believe in yourself and raise your confidence that you can follow through with the right choices.
it also helps if you can write down something you are thankful for or something that made you happy.  It can be the smallest thing, a smile from a stranger, a sunny day, a roof over your head, etc. This slowly changes the way that you think.

The plan will come slowly.  You don't need to have all of the answers right now.
Write down your priorities and that will help you come up with a plan.
Your first priorities should be yourself and your kids. 
Your kids need you healthy.  Your kids still need to see you regardless, make this fit into your schedule.

Thanks again, going to see them tomorrow for the first time since saturday morning where they saw me at my worse.

Whilst I can't wait to see them, and give them a massive hug, I'm also apprehensive as I've let them down and feel like I'm continuing to the closer we get to XMAS.

The one thing I'm certain of though is that I've nothing to share with my wife except pleasantries. I know the hoover will be out, it has since the first day I left alongside the venom and malice when I can't tell her what she wants to hear.

Crushed,
My heart goes out to you.
I know exactly how you feel, I have been in your shoes.

Let your children know that they are loved,

Crushed,
I also want to remind you that you are a good guy in a bad situation.
Keep being a good guy, make good decisions and you will pull through this just fine.

There will be times when things seem insurmountable, like everything is stacked against you.
But remind yourself that it won't always be this way.  Keep your chin up, take care of yourself and your kids and you will be just fine.  The biggest reminder for yourself will be to not engage in any sort of arguing, fighting or vindictive behavior towards your spouse.  "disengage".
I don't mean that you have to be a push over and go along with whatever she says. 
But don't fight over it.  I'll give an example.

When I left I was paying for everything.  I was paying for our home and expenses, I was paying her spousal support, I was paying for her vehicle insurance.  She would not cover any of the costs for kids education, extracurricular activities, nothing.
Basically 3/4 of our combined income was going towards her and 1/4 was left for me and the kids.  My cell phone was in her name and she cut it off days after I left.  She picked up the family dog from daycare and wouldn't let me see him.  On top of this she would throw jabs about me being cheap and demanding that I pay for additional things that were her personal expenses.
Extremely frustrating for sure, and it just makes you want to scream and lash out.
I just did not respond.

When I could no longer afford to pay all of the bills, I told her that I couldn't afford it and that I would close my accounts if we could not come to an agreement.
I gave her notice and asked her to contact me to work something out, when she did not I just closed my accounts.
This resulted in name calling, slandering on social media, but she still didn't get a reaction from me.  Arguing about the facts of life doesn't change them.  Stick to your guns and follow through without creating drama.

She still doesn't support the kids, but we will have to go to court for that matter.
Again, no point in trying to argue over it, it's a fact of life that you have to support your kids.

As i said earlier, if you think she is difficult now just wait until you leave for good.  She will likely try whatever she can to get under your skin and hurt you.  Just make sure you are not doing the same to her.

Thank you finding, sounds like you have plenty to deal with so spending the time to write to me is all the more appreciated! I read every last letter more than once, you really help.

I had a good morning with the kids yesterday, they'd clearly put aside the last time they saw me which was nice. I told them each individually I loved them dearly.

I got to the house early before school to do that, and helped take them to school. I had to spend time with my wife alone prior to school Xmas play and my lads new school open day. I stayed quiet and offered minimal in terms of input. My lad is clearly suffering from anxiety and reaction issues but that's a result of us both. We agreed at least on that.

Aside from that it's been a week of total dog turd. My folding bike was stolen from a basement car park at work that should require two fob entries, as "all belongings left are the owners responsibility" I can't claim except on the house insurance. It's 1.2k to replace. Incurred 250 in travel expenses on top of what I normally pay plus a 4hr commute Tngt.

Doing some simple maths this week means that 90% of my gross salary will be taken up in commitments, either to the house or travel. I will not be able to live independently until one of my parents dies. That's the long and short.

Right now I feel like the unluckiest person in the UK. But, no matter what, I'll keep going....

Crushed,
Definitely sounds like a rough week.
On the positive side, you got to see your kids and it sounds like they were happy to see you too!

Hopefully you can work something out with your wife regarding your home.
When I initially left I felt obligated to keep up with paying for everything that I had paid for previously.
Even things that were luxuries for my ex like satellite TV and the home phone and internet.
I was so used to providing her with the things she wanted and I knew that she would be angry with me if I stopped.

From what I have read, you spend a lot of time and resources commuting.  Is there any way for you to make a change with that?  Is it possible for you to find a job closer to home?  Can you do anything about where your children live so they can be closer to you?

Often we just accept the way things are and change ourselves or our habits to fit without questioning it.
I challenge you to question the status quo and ask yourself if there is a way to make things easier on you (rather than easier on your spouse).  I can speak from experience in saying that I usually did the same, I changed my habits and situation to make life easier for my spouse rather than looking after myself.  I took the path of least resistance.
I needed coaching from my parents and from a counselor to see that other people could change to make things easier on me.  It may initially require some conflict, you may have to draw a hard line on some things and that may be unpopular.
Some things you may choose to continue to suffer in order to do what is best for your kids.

Changing job would mean a 30-50% income drop sadly. I'm very well paid and very well looked after fortunately, but the compromise is the 13 hours a day spent working and commuting. There would also be a loss of private healthcare and pension contributions.

Obviously, as is the case with so many PD's my wife has no formal employment and hasn't since the birth of our first child. Since both kids have been at school she has done some part time cleaning, but that only covers her personal expenses (the only thing I said I would never pay for). When I had about an hour alone with my wife last week she did concede that she would look for a more meaningful job and help contribute to some of the outgoings (we all know these words mean very little but at least shows some understanding) but when it comes down to it, £100 or thereabouts a month makes very little difference. I would feel guilty penalising the kids by stopping the Satellite TV, Broadband, Prime as you've mentioned, we don't have many subscriptions. I also have to pay for their car too as we live in a small village about 1.5 miles from the main town and without that they couldn't go to school. It's travels costs that are the real issue in our household.

I understand your points and what you're saying, I just think over the next 2/3 years it wouldn't be possible to either relocate to be closer or try and sanction them in any way. My aim isn't to make things easier for her but to keep the kids happy and my reputation with them intact.

A recommendation I could certainly follow though is the looking after myself option. Whilst I don't have the time to visit any kind of professional I do have family, I also need to get back in to better routines regarding exercise and so on.

My situation was a little different as my ex is on a good amount of disability plus i am paying her support, so she has the means to cover expenses.
Interestingly, it was no problem when I stopped paying for the satellite and internet.  She picked up those bills no problem.
She would not want the inconvenience of going without that!!!
She has no problem paying for luxuries for herself or for paying for expensive meals out for the kids or brand name clothes.
She feels that she deserves it and that's how her money should be spent.

It was when it came down to paying for the basic living expenses that she threw a tantrum.
That has always been someone else's concern and not her problem.
She had only lived on her own for a few months in her late teens and early twenties and she couldn't hack it.
She couldn't manage having to pay bills out of her own salary and have only a little left to spend on herself.  She moved back home shortly after.
When we first started living together I asked her to cover some of the household bills and that only lasted a few months before she started calling me names and going into full resentment mode because I was making her spend some of her money on essentials.  That should have been my first sign.  Then when we got a joint account she burned through my savings within a month or two.

I'll also say that now I have no cable or satellite tv in my home, my kids are with me the majority of the time and there are no complaints.  We do have netflix and a streaming music service so that kind of makes up for it.  They couldn't live without internet though!

It sounds like a difficult situation that you are in for sure.
I am not sure about what your plans are with your spouse.  Are you planning on separating permanently?
If you are planning on separating you will have to make some unpopular decisions at some point.  I don't think you can keep paying for a home that is not close for you to see your kids or close to your work.
It's a fact of life that lifestyles will change after separation and it sounds like only you are compromising here.
Life will basically remain the same for your wife and kids and you will be worse off.

Perhaps your wife will have to get a job that will cover her car and luxuries like television and internet.
You for sure will feel guilty if you decide to stop paying for some things, but the fact is that your wife could also pay for those things if she wanted to.  The guilt should be shared equally, it's not all your responsibility.

You also admit that travel costs, both time and money, are the real issue so I think that's where you need to focus

No idea   what the future holds at the moment Finding. Just taking each day as it comes and trying to get through a busy period at work successfully and doing the right thing by the kids.

I tried to explain a text exchange between my wife and I to my father last night, and he blew up at me too. Spent all night in his spare room staring at the ceiling until I couldn't keep my eyes open anymore. I don't even cry, I'm too lost and empty for that now. Just don't see a way of things getting better short of a lottery win.

Crushed,
Your dad probably feels frustrated and helpless just like you do.
My parents felt this way too until I made the decision to leave for good.

I think it's normal for this to come out in either anger or sadness.
I saw this from both of my parents, anger and frustration from my dad and sadness from my mom.

Things will get better, you can make it happen.
You don't need the lottery.

We spoke the following day, it was as described but with the added complication of some health issues he's experiencing that I didn't know the full scale of,m. We've been speaking regularly since and I've also told my brother the situation in a little more detail so I hope he understands. I guess it's the same with a lot of families in this situation, they just don't understand how someone can destroy something that's so good for them and their family and make such a mess of it in the process. It makes no sense even to me....

Crushed,
You talk about "destroying" and "making a mess".
What exactly do you mean?

I assume you are talking about the fact that you have decided you can't live with your spouse any longer.
I would encourage you to think about this differently if this is what you are talking about.
You are making a choice, you obviously have reasons for making this choice.
Number 1.  Write down your reasons, figure out your priorities.
Hopefully this will change the way you think about your decision.

From the things you have written I have heard that you are doing this for the good of your kids.
it may also be that you need to make a change.  Change may seem like "destruction" but that's just one way of looking at it.
If you grow and improve from this change then the "destruction" of your relationship is worth it.

I encourage you to think of this as change and growth for yourself and doing a positive thing for your kids.
Kids do not benefit in any way from being in the middle of an unhealthy relationship.  They can have a comfortable home, lots of toys, activities, vacations, etc but if their daily life is full of fighting and unrest they will be miserable.

It's my belief that she will will drag this through the courts and make it all as difficult as possible expecting me to foot the bill. Given that she's only allowing me to see kids for 3 hrs on Xmas day and has thrown some of her usual venom at me over text.

What she doesn't realise (or does, but simply cannot handle the perceived betrayal, injustice or abandonment) is that by making it impossible for me to pay for things means I risk bankruptcy. If I go bankrupt I lose my job as I work in the financial services. As outlined previously if that happens we will lose a huge percentage of income, we will then likely lose the house and as she's on the mortgage we both go bankrupt too. The result of all that on the kids and all our lives doesn't warrant an explanation. I just hope that sense will kick in before all that happens but it's a very real threat....

Crushed,

I challenge you to look at and evaluate your choices.  Once you make a choice, own it.
You are in a bad situation, that is true.  She can't "force" you to do anything.
You can choose to live with the status quo or you can choose to fight to get what you deserve.
If that means going through the courts, then you can choose to do that.

You deserve to see your kids.  You deserve to be financially stable.
The house may have to be sold.  This is a fact of what happens when people get separated and divorced.
Not many people can afford to keep the same standard of living as they did when they were married.
You are not made of money.  She might fight it, you may have to get a court order saying that the home must be sold, you may have to dish out rent so that she can get a place.
She may have to get a job, she may have to move in with friends or family (as you have done).

Right now she probably thinks she is entitled to the home, but in reality it belongs to both of you.
There are many ways of going about this, and it takes time, but in the long run you can't continue like this forever and you are not expected to.

Hi Crushed,

Having gone through quite a bit with my DH and his PD ex, I can say with certainty that people really won't understand a lot of what you will go through.  Unless someone has personally dealt with a PD, it is really hard for them to understand actions/consequences of those actions.  My family, DH's family- they all know   that BM is a PD and has some serious issue, but they still struggle with understanding some of the decisions we have to make.  But that doesn't make the decisions wrong or destructive.

You can't control how your wife will react to your decisions.  It is really, really difficult to not make decisions based on how they will react- but that's not always the best path forward to manage their behavior with your decisions.  We had a therapist tell us to document the decisions we make and why we make them.  In the moment of making the decision, you will have a very good reason for it (that you won't remember later).  This will help with sanity as well as any accusations in court regarding these decisions.  Like Findingmyvoice said- these may be tough times, but they won't always be this tough.  Another therapist told us "when you find yourself walking in hell, keep walking"- I'm sure I don't need to tell a UK Dad who said that- but it applies to clearly in this situation.

Quote from: Findingmyvoice on December 20, 2019, 11:13:40 AM
Crushed,

I challenge you to look at and evaluate your choices.  Once you make a choice, own it.
You are in a bad situation, that is true.  She can't "force" you to do anything.
You can choose to live with the status quo or you can choose to fight to get what you deserve.
If that means going through the courts, then you can choose to do that.

You deserve to see your kids.  You deserve to be financially stable.
The house may have to be sold.  This is a fact of what happens when people get separated and divorced.
Not many people can afford to keep the same standard of living as they did when they were married.
You are not made of money.  She might fight it, you may have to get a court order saying that the home must be sold, you may have to dish out rent so that she can get a place.
She may have to get a job, she may have to move in with friends or family (as you have done).

Right now she probably thinks she is entitled to the home, but in reality it belongs to both of you.
There are many ways of going about this, and it takes time, but in the long run you can't continue like this forever and you are not expected to.

Sorry finding but in Blighty the kids need a home til they're at least 16 and that place is as cheap as it gets for a ten mile radius.

My dad did say the courts can't make you pay what you don't have which is true I guess but given my experience I'm a pessimist. I don't look at positives as none have really happened for as long as I remember

Finding/all as you're likely aware from other posts the decision was made for me. The one good thing about dealing with a PD. some things are simply unforgivable.

Now we're starting off on what I think will be a long, arduous path but one where I have to do what's right.

I no longer mourn the relationship, not sure I ever really did. It was what the future held either way that had me antagonising. Now I just want to get strong, carry on and get this all done as quickly as possible