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Once they got a chance the pds in our family and exh family tried it on with oldest d. It's parental alienation pure and simple. An attempt to turn the kids somehow - maybe just to justify their own behaviour? I don't know. It's pretty universal. Exbpdhs and new wife attempted the "you need to get out of home away from your controlling mother" (from age 18 till she went nc at 24). During this time she became part owner of our home and was doing really well - but still you need to get away from your mother.  Then her bpdf started the "you're in my will but you wont inherit until you leave home because none of MY stuff is for your mother's benefit. Then she got compared to other young women and found lacking because she really needed to get a mind of her own. Anyone  that knows her knows she already had one of those 😀.

My upd?m has tried it too. Mostly put downs of me and blaming me for everything that went wrong with exbpdh etc.

So they will try it. Best defense imo and in hindsight is not to carpet sweep the bad behaviour but to be open about unacceptable behaviour, and give them strategies to deal with it. Give them permission to leave/end conversation etc. I gave oldest info re pds (appropriate in her case as she wanted to know and is medically interested). And kept a good relationship with her with open communication.

Our kids don't have the baggage  we grew up with and don't have as many hangups. I found she processed this stuff much better than I did and called it correctly right from the start. She just needed strategies.

She's now in her 30s. Her pd radar is pretty good. And we still have a great relationship. She keeps one with my pdm but doesn't play the game. Has no relationship with her father but that's his loss. He wouldn't stop and try to build a relationship. That's not her fault or mine and she doesn't feel guilty about nc.
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Dealing with PD Parents / Re: none of my family help me
« Last post by brokenbutterfly on Today at 07:32:25 PM »
Practical, I don't think you're looney at all! I need the help and any advice I can get. Now I must make myself be able to carry it out.

Yesterday she asked us to come Sunday for Thanksgiving. We had plans, so I declined and then I got the sob, pity me lecture. She has never done Thanksgiving, so I saw that invite as another tactic in her recent jabs at a few of us in the family for not doing enough for her.

The difference is that the other members do nothing to stop her. I truly think she has set fear in everyone

Thank you so much.



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Dealing with PD Parents / Re: none of my family help me
« Last post by practical on Today at 06:46:30 PM »
Welcome :wave:

Talking to my F was like being thrown into a battery acid bath with his ceaseless negativity, his complaints about everybody and everything, even when I didn't talk to him his voice was in my head. At some point I started to tell him either he can say nice things or if he starts berating me or others I'll end the conversation, I simply couldn't take it anymore. He didn't like it and it wasn't easy for me to end the conversations but I did after trying to redirect them. You thing you could get to a point where when your M scolds you, you tell her "I don't have to listen to this." and leave or hang up? Check in the Toolbox "boundaries" and "intermittent reinforcement", as it is very important if you decide on a boundary you are strong enough to keep it (we all slip up every now and then though  :bigwink: ). And if you now think I'm looney for telling you to consider setting such a boundary, I don't hold it against you, that is what I thought of the people on the board when they told me to do just that when I came here totally overwrought and at wits end.

As for your brothers, sadly it seems you come from a dysfunctional family system, and so everybody is affected, often leaving each family member in their own aloness and with their own form of damage. You have done a lot of work on yourself, which is really awesome and are therefore most likely way ahead of your siblings in understanding your background as well as in healing - they might never get there.

I'm sorry for your loss :bighug:
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Working on Us / Hello again
« Last post by blahblah on Today at 06:23:01 PM »
The last time I posted was here: http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=75595.msg660449#msg660449

Long story short: Wife bpd - not full on though. 2 kids.
We almost divorced 2 times the past year. Decided to work on it. We love each other, and both times we almost split, we did so very lovingly.

She is now almost done with KAT (some variation of DAT therapy), and it has helped her A LOT.
She FINALLY realized, that I shouldnt apologize for everything all the time. That she has to work on her stuff. That SHE needs to work, and she is not constantly blaming me for stuff anymore. She still has the tendencies, but it is no where near as severe as it was in the past.
She will also be getting some meds (not meds, butenglish istn my first langauge), basically, she has metabolism problems (something women often have, and it greatly interferes with their mood and energy levels). This will start around early 2019.
She is treating me lots better, though she still gets very moody around her period. It's like her BPD comes out to play during PMS.
She easily gets overwhelmed still, and has to sleep a lot, but that, i can tolerate. She is able to take care of the kids more, and she enjoys being with them more.

Basically we are doing lots better. She has really improved her behaviour and she is able to have self insight , to a level that she never has had before. She has a lot of homework, and tries really hard.
I just thought I would let you know how things are going.


I am still having a VERY hard time letting go, still. Emotionally. I'm shell shocked, and dont really know how to get over it.
On top of that, our sex life has never been good. She is basically afraid of sex, but trying - we saw a sex therapist last year, but almost splitting twice and her going through therapy, seems to have reset her sex-anxiety.
I am thinking about waiting till jan 2019 and then insisting there, that we see a sex therapist again. (christmas time etc is too stressful).
But MAN!! it's really weighing me down now.
It's like after the BPD problem, has faded more and more in the background, the more i realize how much i have been missing the sexual connection.
Its not like im a raving sex monster, just needing sex. It's the knowledge, that the past 12 years have been miserable, in so many was, sexually as well, and that I cant bear having the next 12 years be like this.
It is on my mind constantly. I constantly hope that my wife will connect with me.
Im in my late 30s, women generally find me attractive and like my company. I have seriously been thinking of having an affair, lately, but, truthfully, i know i really dont. I wouldnt feel guilty about it, though, if it happened.
I feel like im going semi-crazy, for never having my needs met. Im not just talking "carnally", but emotionally - spiritually, even.

So first of all:
I know I have asked this before, but those of you who came out on the other side, either divorcing, or the spouse getting significantly better, how did you relax?
I can still feel i'm walking on eggshells very often. Im home alone, but just typing this, unsettles me again.

Second:
How do you take your mind of a thing (the lack of sex). It's really hard, to just say to my self "just let it be for a couple of months, and we will work on it, and it will get better". I think the reason why its so hard for me, is that it has been so long time already, and because the "dust" is settling, my needs surface even more clearly.

I have had some amazing days though. For 2 or 3 days, i was completely connected to myself. Compeltely centered and no tummy pain at all (i usually have a chronic knot in my stomach - something i have worked up over the past 12 years).
This happened when my libido completely shut off for some reason, and I was able to put my sexuality on the shelf, for the next couple of months.
Then i was COMPLETELY HAPPY. It was an amazing feeling, that i havent felt for years.
This tells me that, once the sexual part of our marriage, is sorted out (hopefully it will get sorted out), that things are ok. I can look forward to being truly happy and connected to my wife. This gives me SO much hope, but im also almost going crazy, because of circular thinking.

Any ideas?

Hope you understand what i'm trying to say:)



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Parents' Discussion / Re: Some of you may find this interesting...
« Last post by momnthefog on Today at 06:22:24 PM »
Adria,

Can you describe some of the protocols?

Thanks,

Momnthefog
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Parents' Discussion / Re: Well, I'm Done!
« Last post by nightbird2012 on Today at 06:03:45 PM »
I have been deleting all of her texts, so that I don't get triggered by them. I am keeping the baby pics, though, and placing them in a folder on my computer.  I am going back and forth through the stages of grieving, but one things stands out clearly: this was abuse.  The fact that she is my dd does not give her an automatic right to treat me this way, whether she can help it or not.  I had been warned by friends that she would impact my marriage if I weren't careful, and to some extent I fear that she has.  Although he doesn't say so, DH clearly feels sorry for her.  He needs to hear just one blasting, disrespectful speech from her and it would soon change his mind! But I wouldn't want that to happen.   

Again, thanks for the responses.  Sometimes I feel so alone with all this.
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Dealing with PD In-Laws / Re: Blame me
« Last post by Alexmom on Today at 05:48:11 PM »
I think this is a common dynamic, unfortunately.   A child is raised to not disappoint his/her parents and to just put up with their nonsense, perhaps this was learned by the child after he/she made attempts to be heard only to be disregarded due to the self absorption of the parents so child just gives in and grows up acquiescing.   Now this person marries and the dynamic continues except now wife or husband can be the convenient excuse rather than adult child being honest and direct with his/her parents and beginning to establish his/her own voice and independence.

My DH was a bit like this.  His parents were extremely selfish and I think he just stopped trying to have his voice heard - it was easier to just acquiesce.  I couldn't stand it, however, and had no problem being the "bad guy" who disagreed or disappointed his parents.  I learned to do this at an early age with my own parents and wasn't about to let some one like my IL's mess with my independence.  They would absolutely have steam rolled over us had I not taken this stance.  I think at the earlier part of our marriage DH probably let me take the hit - which explains the entire family's behavior towards me- but over time he began to stand up to them more and take responsibility for decisions we made that disappointed them.  Once he started doing this, the family wrath moved from being directed at me to being directed at him.  I ended up going NC with my IL's around the time this shift happened as life is too short to be spent around miserable relationships that offer zero benefit.   Unfortunately, DH still deals with the family wrath. 

I highly recommend that you just continue to encourage your DH to find his voice and establish better boundaries with his family of origin  It will be uncomfortable for him which is a sign that a good change is underway.  If he can ride it out - the other side is so much better - for him, for you and for your marriage. 
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Ketubahís have standard language. Iíve never heard of them being customized, but thatís an interesting idea.

Its too bad there concept of making a social contract isnít part of marriage culture. People put a lot of thought into the wedding vows and reception, but not the parameters of what they will and will not accept or tolerate in marriage. I think prenups get a bad rap. I really wish my ex and I had had some clear talks about finances and attitudes towards money before we were married.

I agree. I think that it makes sense to say youíll love someone unconditionally, but the reality is that love is a verb and it means that we need to love ourselves too. It also has limitations.

Just this week I had to have a frank talk with my husband about his emotions running the show and how this would not be tolerated. There was a little more to it than that, but if you act like no one will ever leave even under repeated patterns of harmful behavior, then youíre just staying put as a victim, which I donít think is supposed to be the way it is at all. The Catholic view is that youíd separate until the other party is safe to live with. But if you donít see consequences, some people donít change.

It saves my marriage when I enforce boundaries and when my husband does as well. Itís a great, uncomfortable, but beautiful thing.

Why a church would say absolutely that a spouse shouldnít be a victim of abuse, but doesnít have a way to quickly and easily break that up if abuse can be shown, just seems like abuse in its own right. I would have tons of others upset if I said that, but I think everyone here can handle this thought as well as challenge it if needed.

A ketubah just seems wise. Each party knowing that divorce could happen based on specific circumstances. Not that it would 100% have to be followed through upon if the couple found a way back from certain things, but that would be their choice.

It bothers me so much that my sister would still be bound in the church on paper to such an abusive malevolent person. She cannot marry again in the church so she married again civilly only. I think thatís best for her, and Iím proud that she didnít give in and allow herself further harm as best she can. Abuse isnít new. Why shouldnít an organization like the church able to deal with this? Am I asking the impossible? I know I am not, if the ketubah exists, then there should be better ways in churches too.

That said, I 100% agree that most times so much work goes into the wedding, but little is said about the marriage. My husband and I did anything we could to prepare for marriage. Thereís a specific retreat we went on that helped us have these hard conversations, and we did the other pre Cana as well, which is a one day workshop, but itís barely a drop in the bucket in terms of marriage prep. Thereís so much work to get out of a Catholic marriage (annulment), but not much to get into it except wedding day plans.

My H and I had also both been in therapy for a number of years, so that helped us through marriage preparation as well. Huge.

Without all of that, we would be clueless.
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I don't mean this to sound abrupt, but...

We are all going to die.

Unless you are a physician who plans to spend the rest of your life attached to your dad's hip, you aren't going to be able to keep him alive until YOU die  :yeahthat:

My particular fear is that my 88-year-old going-strong uNPD and uNBPDM will NEVER EVER DIE  :wave:

And hey, why NOT enjoy your family? Holidays with YOUR family? Fun times with your family? Your family. You have one. Why not give them your best happiest outlook on life instead of not enjoying/having holidays?
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Snugglyhedgehog,

Our situations really are so so similar. I had this with my UNPD mother & En father around my childs birthday, I remained NC and I am glad I did. My anxiety is at an all time high and I can imagine it will continue to rise right up until Xmas. Do whatever makes you feel safest. If the thought of allowing your mum see your daughter fills you with dread and makes you anxious then it doesn't sound like it's the right thing for you and your family.

I too was ignored for months and months until UNPD mother must have got fed up of that game and sent the fauxpology email demanding things return to normal now. As if I could just sweep everything under the carpet and get back into my role as scapegoat. I won't be, as hard as it is to remain NC and fend off the flying monkeys and hoovering attempts, there isn't a way back for me. Stay strong.

Hey foxbrown,
Thanks for you reply.
Itís really helpful to hear from people in a similar situation. I could practically have written your second paragraph myself!
I have absolutely no intention of letting her see my daughter this weekend.
My anxiety is up there too and itís now worse thinking she will just show up because I havenít replied.
I wasnít sure what to do.
Does there come a point where I need to be direct and firm in the hope she backs off? (I think maybe this is what Starboard was suggesting.) Or can I just keep going as I am?
She is trying to contact me more and more frequently.
There isnít a way back for me either at this point. Iím not prepared to let her break me any further.
SH
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