Recent posts
#1
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Please help me understand
Last post by Lookin 2 B Free - Today at 02:56:38 AMTrying to reason with a pwPD doesn't work. They have disordered thinking -- they use emotional reasoning rather than logical reasoning. Logic is totally irrelevant to them.
My experience of listening to emotional reasoning is "You're here and I feel bad therefore you're doing something awful. You're always awful. I see that clearly now. Since you're so awful, whatever I feel like doing to you (which is abusive though they wouldn't label it that) is justified and you deserve it."
The fact that the thing they're accusing you of could not possibly have been done by you because you weren't even there has no bearing. This is not about the facts. It's about their terrible emotional distress which is happening all the time with pwBPD and has to be blamed on someone else, and you're the one there.
The tools are not about engaging so you can get them to see reason. That is not a tool with pwPDs. That's like banging your head against a brick wall over and over and hoping the bricks will break. The tools are about disengaging enough to calm things down a bit and get out of the line of fire. Being as provocative as a gray rock.
Once you truly give up the "If only I could get them to see" position as a losing cause, everything changes. It can be hard to get there. Who wants see that about their partner, and their relationship and it's future? It's the giving up of hope which brings up feelings of loss and grief. But that's a step to getting your freedom, getting your life back, whether you stay or leave. Because then you have unhooked yourself from the endless and all-encompassing job of trying to make something happen over which you have no control and will almost certainly fail if you are dealing with a true pwPD. At least that's been my experience.
My experience of listening to emotional reasoning is "You're here and I feel bad therefore you're doing something awful. You're always awful. I see that clearly now. Since you're so awful, whatever I feel like doing to you (which is abusive though they wouldn't label it that) is justified and you deserve it."
The fact that the thing they're accusing you of could not possibly have been done by you because you weren't even there has no bearing. This is not about the facts. It's about their terrible emotional distress which is happening all the time with pwBPD and has to be blamed on someone else, and you're the one there.
The tools are not about engaging so you can get them to see reason. That is not a tool with pwPDs. That's like banging your head against a brick wall over and over and hoping the bricks will break. The tools are about disengaging enough to calm things down a bit and get out of the line of fire. Being as provocative as a gray rock.
Once you truly give up the "If only I could get them to see" position as a losing cause, everything changes. It can be hard to get there. Who wants see that about their partner, and their relationship and it's future? It's the giving up of hope which brings up feelings of loss and grief. But that's a step to getting your freedom, getting your life back, whether you stay or leave. Because then you have unhooked yourself from the endless and all-encompassing job of trying to make something happen over which you have no control and will almost certainly fail if you are dealing with a true pwPD. At least that's been my experience.
#2
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Ok what just happened. So...
Last post by sunshine702 - Today at 02:39:24 AMI don't believe he is NPD he has been diagnosed BPD but the cabinet story here yep that is /was my life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh34JyezcCw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh34JyezcCw
#3
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Please help me understand
Last post by sunshine702 - Today at 02:35:33 AM #4
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Please help me understand
Last post by sunshine702 - Yesterday at 11:54:39 PMHe still sees this over that I yelled at him over dinner (I didn't yell I was frustrated at the misunderstanding and no one keeping me in the loop!). and would not Stop attacking him. Any conversation ever is seen as an attack.
Sigh
Yeah I must be split black. The "stop attacking me" must be that. This is like a lot of our fights where I "ask wrong"
"Ask wrong" "stop attacking me" "you're rude" "you lie" and if I try to make my case I am "playing the victim"
Sigh
Yeah I must be split black. The "stop attacking me" must be that. This is like a lot of our fights where I "ask wrong"
"Ask wrong" "stop attacking me" "you're rude" "you lie" and if I try to make my case I am "playing the victim"
#5
Working on Us / Re: New (to me) in Trauma Reco...
Last post by Lookin 2 B Free - Yesterday at 11:31:49 PMThanks, Trees. I had a similar childhood to yours, caretaking the parent, the family ... anyone who needed it and probably some who didn't. 
I have long felt that a strong protective aspect of me, which alerts very easily to keep me emotionally safe, is overactive and really limiting me. I found EMDR helpful, but it didn't unlock this. I feel constricted by this protective mechanism which seems pretty involuntary. I want to unshackle myself from it so I can just use good self care appropriate for the situation and be freer to move through the world feeling safer and less reactive.
I love the idea of taking these IFS protectors, having them step aside enough to deal with the traumatized part, and then give the protectors a more realistic role to continue on with based on the current relatively safe situation and not the old horrendous threats.
When I heard Schwartz explain the 2 types of protectors, manager and firefighter, not only did I see myself, but the PD's behavior immediately made so much sense. (Not that that's the important thing, but it was kind of nice. Like "Oh! Of course! That's why they acted like that."
Managers are doing the day-to-day controlling while firefighters kick in like it's life or death and they have to get that fire out no matter the cost. That could be blowing up a job, a marriage, a child's wellbeing, or their own promising future. I think pwPDs are probably in firefighter mode a good deal of the time. (And, NO, I'm not tempted to take these theories to my old PDex and FOO and try to fix them! Thank heavens, bc there was a time I would have been.)
Reading transcripts of his sessions, it seems to me IFS really can change us at a level other trauma therapies haven't had as much success with. So now I really want to try it with my trauma T (who was trained by Schwartz). Hopefully soon!
I have long felt that a strong protective aspect of me, which alerts very easily to keep me emotionally safe, is overactive and really limiting me. I found EMDR helpful, but it didn't unlock this. I feel constricted by this protective mechanism which seems pretty involuntary. I want to unshackle myself from it so I can just use good self care appropriate for the situation and be freer to move through the world feeling safer and less reactive.
I love the idea of taking these IFS protectors, having them step aside enough to deal with the traumatized part, and then give the protectors a more realistic role to continue on with based on the current relatively safe situation and not the old horrendous threats.
When I heard Schwartz explain the 2 types of protectors, manager and firefighter, not only did I see myself, but the PD's behavior immediately made so much sense. (Not that that's the important thing, but it was kind of nice. Like "Oh! Of course! That's why they acted like that."
Managers are doing the day-to-day controlling while firefighters kick in like it's life or death and they have to get that fire out no matter the cost. That could be blowing up a job, a marriage, a child's wellbeing, or their own promising future. I think pwPDs are probably in firefighter mode a good deal of the time. (And, NO, I'm not tempted to take these theories to my old PDex and FOO and try to fix them! Thank heavens, bc there was a time I would have been.)
Reading transcripts of his sessions, it seems to me IFS really can change us at a level other trauma therapies haven't had as much success with. So now I really want to try it with my trauma T (who was trained by Schwartz). Hopefully soon!
#6
Dealing with PD Parents / Re: My PD MOTHER AND FATHER IS...
Last post by Lookin 2 B Free - Yesterday at 10:18:05 PMHow cruelly they behaved to you 001. It all sounds very scary.
Have you read the toolbox and characteristics? It's a good place to start. I'm sorry I am not always regular on here and am just seeing your post.
Trauma therapy is becoming quite big these days, and there are many tools to use. It might be a good place to begin giving that inner child what she needs. Thankfully that's something we can work on doing, even if the original parents and FOO will never be able to.
Please let us know how you're doing.
Have you read the toolbox and characteristics? It's a good place to start. I'm sorry I am not always regular on here and am just seeing your post.
Trauma therapy is becoming quite big these days, and there are many tools to use. It might be a good place to begin giving that inner child what she needs. Thankfully that's something we can work on doing, even if the original parents and FOO will never be able to.
Please let us know how you're doing.
#7
Working on Us / Re: I said 'no' to someone and...
Last post by SonofThunder - Yesterday at 09:54:10 PMAnother big congrats from me! Well done and soak up the joy!
SoT
SoT
#8
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Please help me understand
Last post by Lookin 2 B Free - Yesterday at 09:48:29 PMSunshine, My exBPD/NPD was not around his mother, so I haven't experienced that. But the outrageous splitting. First so wonderful - then awful, and back and forth with the split becoming more intensely against me each year. One of the things I read (maybe in Stop Caretaking?) was if you are their spouse, the splitting black will go to you, you will be blamed for everything. That one point helped bring me Out of the FOG.
I didn't feel like celebrating when I left, though I know many do and I can understand why. It was hard for me. Now with the perspective of some years, I'm so glad I did. Going NC was also hard to do and he tried to hook me in every way he could. But I finally did it and made it stick. It was the beginning of being able to move on.
I'm sorry you're having to go through this and glad you're taking the steps you are. I hope you keep sharing with us.
I didn't feel like celebrating when I left, though I know many do and I can understand why. It was hard for me. Now with the perspective of some years, I'm so glad I did. Going NC was also hard to do and he tried to hook me in every way he could. But I finally did it and made it stick. It was the beginning of being able to move on.
I'm sorry you're having to go through this and glad you're taking the steps you are. I hope you keep sharing with us.
#9
Separating & Divorcing / Re: One year since divorce was...
Last post by Lookin 2 B Free - Yesterday at 09:16:47 PMThat's wonderful, EM! I was still struggling with wanting to go back at just a year out (but not any more), so I'm happy to hear you're doing so well. Lowering contact with FOO helps so much, too! Thanks for sharing your journey.
#10
Dealing with PD Parents / Re: Having empathy for abusers...
Last post by Just Kathy - Yesterday at 05:51:26 PMAnyone can obtain a license and call themselves a 'childhood trauma coach'; it essentially comes down to the amount of time and money one is willing to invest. Think of it like this: many people call themselves 'doctors,' but only a few are qualified.
The old saying goes, opinions are like assholes—everyone has one. If this coach insists on spreading the misleading idea that "only hurt people hurt people." There's a chance this coach might either have a personality disorder and/or be an enabler, inadvertently keeping people trapped in cycles of abuse.
It's best to distance yourself from this kind of harmful rhetoric and this asshole! Consider finding a more knowledgeable and supportive coach who understands the complexity of these issues and doesn't oversimplify them. Moreover, it's not true that all abusers were once abused—some people are simply 'evil.'
You don't give yourself enough credit! You know what's up – what the score is when you wrote: PD people CAN discern between right and wrong; they know what they are doing to us IS bad, abusive, terrible. And yet, they choose to abuse us because hurting us is not a concern to them. Their main concern is feeding their ego and securing that narcissistic supply daily/often enough. So, why should I have empathy for someone who's doing this?
It's important to prioritize empathy for yourself above all. You wouldn't look at a rattlesnake and feel sorry for it, knowing full well it's dangerous and could potentially kill you. You wouldn't say, "Poor rattlesnake, it's got itself out in the sun and might get sunburned. That rattlesnake eats mice and rabbits because it was abused when young! I need to feel sorry for it and help it. I should help by moving it under that tree. I'll pick it up with my bare hands." That kind of thinking puts you in danger. Similarly, when dealing with toxic people who have hurt you, it's crucial to protect yourself first and foremost rather than risking further harm by trying to 'help' or 'change' them because you have 'empathy' for them. Wrong!
You wrote: I am mature enough to give myself empathy WITHOUT having to give empathy to people who are purposely trying to hurt me and take advantage of me. Sure, I don't mean harm to them, I pray for their peace and for them to have a good future (without me in it) but trying to understand them and give empathy for what they're going through is NOT a prerequisite for healing.
I think you have a good handle on what you need! You are a better person than me.
Growing up was incredibly tough for me. I endured a lot of neglect and abuse from my family. My mother had Borderline Personality Disorder combined with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and my father exhibited traits of a vulnerable and covert type of Narcissism. My estranged sibling also struggles with severe personality disorders, showing traits of both Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorders, with a tendency towards psychopathy.
Moreover, I feel robbed of a chance for closure because my parents have passed away.
Even when they were alive, I couldn't confront them to express how their actions and decisions profoundly hurt me and continue to affect me to this day. Sometimes, I had in-person, one-on-one's with them, or I called them up and told them, "Hello, Mom and Dad. Remember what you did? It really damaged me, and I'm still suffering." Nor could I point out how the advice they gave me all my life led to continual chaos. I never got the chance to tell them that they played a significant role in the struggles I've faced from the very beginning of my life.
I feel deeply cheated because, even when my parents were alive and I confronted them about their actions, their responses were dismissive and passive-aggressive. For instance, whenever I brought up his failings, my father would smooth his hair back with his hand, shrug his shoulders, and cough nervously (his self-soothing ritual) before saying, "Well! I did the best I could do!" It was as if my pain and suffering—and my desire for him to acknowledge the harm he caused me and our family—meant nothing to him, like water off a duck's back.
What hurt me was it became clear that they would never take responsibility for their actions.
These people never take responsibility for their actions – never! So, how can you give someone 'empathy' for the harm they caused if they didn't do any harm to you?
Given this, the most I can aim for is to feel indifferent—I can't find it myself to forgive or love them. The concept of 'loving my enemies' is beyond what I can embrace right now. The best I can do is not to waste my limited energy hating and letting my anger fester. If I let my anger fester or if I continue to hate them, it damages me multiple times – first their original abuse – then afterward when I remember them and the pain I suffered. If I cut off my negative emotions and invest that energy in helping myself – I WIN!
I hold a firm belief in an afterlife. Maybe this place right now is the closest to hell some of us will ever get. Now, I never pray that my parents go to hell- I don't want them there – I really don't want anyone there.
But if I ever get to heaven, given the severe difficulties I faced with my parents, I often find myself praying that if, by any chance, they are in heaven, then I hope heaven is immensely vast. I wish it to be so expansive that our paths never cross again. This way, I can find peace and solace in eternity, free from the pain of our past encounters. When I die, my parents are the last people I want to come for me.
Back to you: Get rid of that 'coach' and find someone else! This coach has a faulty foundation—ONLY hurt people, hurt people. With a faulty foundation, the whole program is based on a lie and leads you down the wrong path, and the destination will not be one of healing self-respect and self-esteem.
The old saying goes, opinions are like assholes—everyone has one. If this coach insists on spreading the misleading idea that "only hurt people hurt people." There's a chance this coach might either have a personality disorder and/or be an enabler, inadvertently keeping people trapped in cycles of abuse.
It's best to distance yourself from this kind of harmful rhetoric and this asshole! Consider finding a more knowledgeable and supportive coach who understands the complexity of these issues and doesn't oversimplify them. Moreover, it's not true that all abusers were once abused—some people are simply 'evil.'
You don't give yourself enough credit! You know what's up – what the score is when you wrote: PD people CAN discern between right and wrong; they know what they are doing to us IS bad, abusive, terrible. And yet, they choose to abuse us because hurting us is not a concern to them. Their main concern is feeding their ego and securing that narcissistic supply daily/often enough. So, why should I have empathy for someone who's doing this?
It's important to prioritize empathy for yourself above all. You wouldn't look at a rattlesnake and feel sorry for it, knowing full well it's dangerous and could potentially kill you. You wouldn't say, "Poor rattlesnake, it's got itself out in the sun and might get sunburned. That rattlesnake eats mice and rabbits because it was abused when young! I need to feel sorry for it and help it. I should help by moving it under that tree. I'll pick it up with my bare hands." That kind of thinking puts you in danger. Similarly, when dealing with toxic people who have hurt you, it's crucial to protect yourself first and foremost rather than risking further harm by trying to 'help' or 'change' them because you have 'empathy' for them. Wrong!
You wrote: I am mature enough to give myself empathy WITHOUT having to give empathy to people who are purposely trying to hurt me and take advantage of me. Sure, I don't mean harm to them, I pray for their peace and for them to have a good future (without me in it) but trying to understand them and give empathy for what they're going through is NOT a prerequisite for healing.
I think you have a good handle on what you need! You are a better person than me.
Growing up was incredibly tough for me. I endured a lot of neglect and abuse from my family. My mother had Borderline Personality Disorder combined with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and my father exhibited traits of a vulnerable and covert type of Narcissism. My estranged sibling also struggles with severe personality disorders, showing traits of both Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorders, with a tendency towards psychopathy.
Moreover, I feel robbed of a chance for closure because my parents have passed away.
Even when they were alive, I couldn't confront them to express how their actions and decisions profoundly hurt me and continue to affect me to this day. Sometimes, I had in-person, one-on-one's with them, or I called them up and told them, "Hello, Mom and Dad. Remember what you did? It really damaged me, and I'm still suffering." Nor could I point out how the advice they gave me all my life led to continual chaos. I never got the chance to tell them that they played a significant role in the struggles I've faced from the very beginning of my life.
I feel deeply cheated because, even when my parents were alive and I confronted them about their actions, their responses were dismissive and passive-aggressive. For instance, whenever I brought up his failings, my father would smooth his hair back with his hand, shrug his shoulders, and cough nervously (his self-soothing ritual) before saying, "Well! I did the best I could do!" It was as if my pain and suffering—and my desire for him to acknowledge the harm he caused me and our family—meant nothing to him, like water off a duck's back.
What hurt me was it became clear that they would never take responsibility for their actions.
These people never take responsibility for their actions – never! So, how can you give someone 'empathy' for the harm they caused if they didn't do any harm to you?
Given this, the most I can aim for is to feel indifferent—I can't find it myself to forgive or love them. The concept of 'loving my enemies' is beyond what I can embrace right now. The best I can do is not to waste my limited energy hating and letting my anger fester. If I let my anger fester or if I continue to hate them, it damages me multiple times – first their original abuse – then afterward when I remember them and the pain I suffered. If I cut off my negative emotions and invest that energy in helping myself – I WIN!
I hold a firm belief in an afterlife. Maybe this place right now is the closest to hell some of us will ever get. Now, I never pray that my parents go to hell- I don't want them there – I really don't want anyone there.
But if I ever get to heaven, given the severe difficulties I faced with my parents, I often find myself praying that if, by any chance, they are in heaven, then I hope heaven is immensely vast. I wish it to be so expansive that our paths never cross again. This way, I can find peace and solace in eternity, free from the pain of our past encounters. When I die, my parents are the last people I want to come for me.
Back to you: Get rid of that 'coach' and find someone else! This coach has a faulty foundation—ONLY hurt people, hurt people. With a faulty foundation, the whole program is based on a lie and leads you down the wrong path, and the destination will not be one of healing self-respect and self-esteem.