Something We Can Never Do Here !

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Varja

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2013, 12:50:46 PM »
However, wr.t to the invalidation article, in past it had been presented to me as a manner for dealing with my UBPDH, and the level of constant awareness of both himself and my every word , tone of voice and movement...over the top.

Validation of a PD's reality is a component of a process sometimes known as operant conditioning using behavior modification techniques. I'd be glad to contribute to a thread about this process if you'd like to start one.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

~ Bodhipaksa Krishnamurti

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SolarFlare

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2013, 03:36:42 PM »
Not me Varja, I value your posts here. However, I am done with the BPD mindset. I don't want to deal with it at all.

I pop over to the pyschforums.com to remind myself , it's pointless. Then I have the real deal as well. Then it's direcedt At me....no more interest in it.

The BPD dance of denial. I can't do it anymore.  More to the point, I don't want to.

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gary

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2013, 04:08:35 PM »
Hi SolarFlare and others here.

 This is kind of a weird job I have here when you really look at it. I'm in a unique position where I'm over with what brought me here. So in a way I can run in neutral. I could just as easily be a moderator on a forum for those with a PD and fight just as hard for their rights there. What I would do there is exactly what Ash does on her forum BPDrecovery.com. She won't allow her members to discuss us here on the otherside because her job and concern is for her own members to get well.

Here is a bit differant where we have to talk about them for awhile just so we can see and realise that yes there really was something real called a mental illness that had a large part of it and it wasn't all about us.

But then we have to let go of that and redirect our focus on ourselves and not them because we don't have what they have. We have what we have and knowing from my own experience with this stuff I know how hard it is to get anyone to understand what we have seen, heard and have been through.

So it's very important to me to make sure even by accident we don't get unvalidated here in what we feel we witnessed because that could be so damaging to us and we may not even start again on our own recovery.

So basically in neutral I actually give a rats ass about everybody...us and them equally. But this is where I work so it's always going to be us first ;)

I do know that there are other places where it's hinted at least that we need to understand more....Well here we don't need to understand anyone but ourselves unless we have chosen to be in the "Committed to Working on it " and even then we put ourselves at least first 51% of the time.....supposed to be anyway 8-)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 04:10:36 PM by gary »
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

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workingonit

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2013, 04:38:44 PM »
So basically in neutral I actually give a rats ass about everybody...us and them equally. But this is where I work so it's always going to be us first ;)

Kind of reminds me of practicing law.  My job is to protect and advocate for my client's rights.  But that doesn't mean I cannot ever see the other side, or wouldn't be able to represent them just as easily.  Of course, either side I represent, I still try to do it in a moral, compassionate, and professional manner.

Good job Gary! 

Of course, I'm not there with pd's yet.  So far, I'm pretty biased towards nons.   :tongue2:
Before I can live with other folks, I've got to live with myself.  The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience.  ~ Harper Lee

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gary

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 04:44:37 PM »
I almost used law as an anlogy but knew you would be along ;)

Sports would be a good one as well.
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

www.gawalters.com
http://gawalters.com/blog/

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workingonit

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 04:49:01 PM »
I almost used law as an anlogy but knew you would be along ;)

I'm always here to lend a hand.  Or a gavel.   ;D
Before I can live with other folks, I've got to live with myself.  The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience.  ~ Harper Lee

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Varja

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 05:14:42 PM »
Invalidation, and it's counterpart, Validation might be considered as tools. The former could be defined as a tool of destruction, and the latter as a tool of construction.

Considering them as tools, we can probably take them anywhere we go, and use them in any situation we find ourselves facing. The thing is, they have varying degrees of effectiveness - depending upon where and how they're applied.

In a relationship with someone having a PD - which is where a couple of respondents were applying validation, in my experience it has a negligible and almost non-existent effect. I believe a popular theory suggests that if a non disordered person "validates" the feelings of someone with a PD, this can often have a calming effect upon them. Perhaps it can, and does - but it didn't positively impact my own relationships with people afflicted with PD's. So, all I've personally experienced is it being ineffective.

As Validation was introduced within this specific thread, it was clearly intended to be used as a tool to enhance relationships and improve the level of support among members. It can sometimes be a sensitive topic because I believe it passes through a gray area that tends to blur the boundary between actually having a PD - and the effects suffered by nons from being in a relationship with someone having a PD. In my personal experience in healing from the effects of having had a BPD mom, I'm not the least bit hesitant to admit that being invalidated was once a powerful "trigger."

We've many members here who are working very hard to overcome the effects of having been raised by abusive parents having personality disorders. I know it's also a powerful trigger for many of them as well, because it conjures up feelings from a scary and difficult time in their lives. This doesn't mean they have PD's themselves just because they're very sensitive to being invalidated. For many of us, eventually we may come to the realization that self-validation is the antidote to being invalidated by the same people who we should have been able to both trust and rely upon to validate our thoughts, feelings, and actions as children.

After being subjected to abusive parenting - and being invalidated, some members struggle greatly trying to "find their voices." Their entire lives can become an unending search for acceptance and validation, and they sometimes look in all the wrong places to find it, too.

Debiliating guilt, lack of self-esteem, skewed self-images and unhealthy approval-seeking behavior patterns are only a few of the after-effects of being an child who suffered from being constantly invalidated and criticized. As a result of this treatment, they coped as best they could, and developed some behaviors that no longer serve them well in their adult lives. We have far too many members here who are struggling mightily to overcome these maladaptive behaviors and thought patterns in their adult lives.

So, being sensitive to the needs of everyone within this community is pretty important in my book. That's another reason I was so glad to see this thread appear. Thanks again for starting it, Gary.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

~ Bodhipaksa Krishnamurti

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SolarFlare

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 01:23:04 AM »
Thank you Gary and Varja and Workingonit.

Agree 3X.

The validation and use thereof, with respect to a person with a PD, is a double edged sword.
Validation for members here, I don't know who I could not validate their feelings, as I have been there for so much of it. IF at any time, someone here reads a post of mine and feels that it is invalidating, please let me know.

Unlike Gary, I'm not quite coasting in Neutral, although more often than not , I have the clutch down.

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So in a way I can run in neutral. I could just as easily be a moderator on a forum for those with a PD and fight just as hard for their rights there.

I doubt I could do that. I posted on a BPD forum, all I seemed to do was drive them more wild. Gave up, can't have a conversation there without it running into nastiness over a sentence which was pulled out of context. Those that are in therapy, better, but they too, patterns of shifting and changing depending on their moods. Inconsistent.  Blame games. Twisted thinking. I am sorry that they are ill and for the wounds in childhood that many suffered, however I cannot validate nor will I, their assumed right to take it out on another.

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Varja

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 12:57:24 PM »
If a person is suffering and enduring pain - for whatever reasons, I think it's usually best to gently take them by the hand and walk alongside them until it subsides. Whenever we seek to minimize it; whenever we attempt to put it in another (future) context; or when we dismiss it as unimportant in the "grand scheme" of things - then we're probably not honoring the person who is suffering. Instead, we're diminishing and dismissing their experience and sending them a subtle message that says their suffering is "all in their heads" and a product of faulty perception.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

~ Bodhipaksa Krishnamurti

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MakingChanges

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 02:39:29 PM »
SolarFlare--  I had a problem on that other site too.  They just didn't like my style I guess.  But I've said this many time.  Recovering in a process.  And it's full of setbacks.  It's a grieving process for the loss of our dreams.  It's not cut and dry easy.  I had times where I thought I was doing great, and then something triggered my melancholy and I was crying again.  I had many months where I felt very fragile and unstable.  I'm pretty good now, but I'm still not 100% yet. 

I've spent hundreds of hours researching BPD, Alcoholism, and Depression.  Also Narcissism.  I feel like I could write my own book.  I've probably put as much time into researching BPD as most Graduate or Doctoral students do.  I finally purged out the need to know from my system.  Then I was able to step forward to work on myself.  Now I'm stepping forward to dating.  I've found that my perceptions of what might be going on with my new bf, are not always correct.  I'm very hard on him and judgmental.  Lately I've had to talk to myself about, "what is bothering me?  Is my perception fair?  Am I expecting more out of him than is reasonable for anyone?  Is this a trauma type reaction to past pain that he's triggering?".  Do I truly sense red flag behaviors or is this an anxiety reaction to something he's triggering in me?  I have to admit that I'm usually the one that does the black and white thinking now.  If I feel rejected, I feel like I've been dumped and I feel the depths of despair descending on me.  Then I realize I'm being nutty, but it takes me a while to feel safe again.  I hate what this experience has done to me.  I hate when I feel unstable. I hate feeling insecure.

It's been 1 1/2 yrs since my break up from by exbpdbf.  But, I'm still not 100% back.  I wonder if I ever will be.
"Nothing improves by chance.  It improves with change".

"You can't always expect others to treat you right.  But you can treat yourself right".

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practicingacceptance

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2013, 03:25:50 PM »
MC,
sounds like you have accomplished quite a lot. don't give up and please go easy on yourself. just keep loving that wonderful person that you are!
 :bighug:

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MakingChanges

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2013, 02:01:41 PM »
Thanks PA..  I feel like my life is going well.  And I'm grateful to realize that what I perceive my new partner as doing wrong, may be anxiety and a false perception on my part.  I do have to stop myself at times and actively ask myself, "are you being nutty, or is what you're seeing and feeling the truth?".  I have to admit that alot of times, the issue is my perception.  I quickly feel rejected if my bf is busy with his life and demands.  I feel like I'm dumped if hours go by and he hasn't called or texted.  I guess that can be expected after living through 2 yrs of a BPD smothering me.  I'm glad I've had all of you to talk to when I feel anxious rather than to get nutty on the bf and embarrass myself with my misperceptions.  I'm still trying ti figure out what's my anxiety, what's red flag behavior, what's real, what's leftovers of last year's depression, even what's menopause at the age of 50??!!! :stars: 

And life goes on............
"Nothing improves by chance.  It improves with change".

"You can't always expect others to treat you right.  But you can treat yourself right".

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Holly

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2013, 01:00:05 PM »
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Yeah just to clarify this particular post anyway has to do with how we treat each other here.

I think with kindness and respect as well as validating that what they are feeling is okay.  I don't think "jumping on" anyone makes one feel good inside.  After all, many of us have gone through a lot as is.  Remembering that each person is suffering or has suffered, is a good guide as to how to approach others. 

Minimizing or dismissing someone's plight is like saying it doesn't matter or doesn't exist.  OUCH!

Sticking to the topic is most important in order to make sure we don't ignore the person's needs or questions. 

I have much compassion for others.  With empathy and compassion, we grow inwardly too.  Others can sense that.

I have stated this too and feel that this is truly important!
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But then we have to let go of that and redirect our focus on ourselves and not them because we don't have what they have.

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I just can't stress enough just how dangerous assumptions can be.
   :thumbup:
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 01:23:04 PM by Holly »
Pursue some path, however narrow and crooked, in which you can walk with love and reverence.

- Henry David Thoreau

Find the Light on your path.

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Slowly Healing

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2013, 01:38:35 PM »
Gary -

Just read about "invalidation" and my (inner) eyes fairly flew open!!

Now I finally see the PD behaviors that my H and his mom exhibit; they make me feel tense and insecure. I'd also experienced them in my childhood!

Maybe that's why I married him (familiarity with the craziness)  :stars:

Now he & his mom invalidate my daughter. So help me, that's gonna stop NOW.

No wonder my daughter hates being around them so much.
"So oftentimes it happens, that we live our lives in chains/And we never even know we have the key"
- The Eagles, "Already Gone"

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gary

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2013, 01:43:34 PM »
Gary -

Just read about "invalidation" and my (inner) eyes fairly flew open!!

Now I finally see the PD behaviors that my H and his mom exhibit; they make me feel tense and insecure. I'd also experienced them in my childhood!

Maybe that's why I married him (familiarity with the craziness)  :stars:

Now he & his mom invalidate my daughter. So help me, that's gonna stop NOW.

No wonder my daughter hates being around them so much.

 Hi Want to be Cate

A statement like you just made..if that were the only one posted all year makes it all worth the effort we all put in here...Good for you  :thumbup:
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

www.gawalters.com
http://gawalters.com/blog/

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Holly

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Re: Something We Can Never Do Here !
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2013, 06:03:35 PM »
 :applause: :applause:   That's fabulous Cate!  When the light bulb goes off, we can begin to live our own lives the way we want to live them!!  Freedom from the past!

As I say, familiarity breeds security.  Watch out!

Gary is right about a fabulous statement for the year.
Pursue some path, however narrow and crooked, in which you can walk with love and reverence.

- Henry David Thoreau

Find the Light on your path.