The Root of the Problem...

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Sojourner17

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The Root of the Problem...
« on: June 16, 2017, 04:45:13 PM »
I was just listening to a video about narcissism on youtube where the woman was talking about whether or not the PD person does what they do consciously or unconsciously and she said something fairly profound.  She said that the problem they have is not a brain problem it is a heart problem.  She then tied the heart problem to their emotions, that their entire motivation in life is to be seen as perfect or a "god" or a great parent, etc, etc, etc.

Ive thought for the last little bit that my mom chose what she was doing as she wanted to look good, be superior, be right.  It seems that as she makes these choices she has slipped farther and farther down into a negative cycle of being.  She has to look good at all cost so she must point out all of the things everyone else is doing wrong.

She isnt (or cant check) checking her heart or comparing her heart towards the standard that God has for us.  She isnt checking her heart against absolute truth and willing to be wrong.  Her heart just gets harder and harder it seems.  She cant admit to mistakes, she cant admit to being spiteful, a gossip, hateful, contemptuous and hurtful.  she has chosen the path she is on and as a result her life has taken a much different turn than it might have if she would have kept her heart in check and been willing and able to humble herself and admit things she has done wrong.

I know its not easy to admit when we are wrong.  I sometimes struggle with this myself but it seems that eventually i can check my heart and change paths/backtrack, whatever.  I think people who are non pd have the ability to do this, maybe not perfectly but they can do it.  Perhaps its with God's help (more than likely God plays a part in it) but they are still able to.

What are your thoughts?  Do you see pd behavior as a problem of the heart?
"Tomorrow is a new day with no mistakes in it..." - Anne of Green Gables by L.M. Montgomery

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Sunshine days

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 06:11:25 PM »
I was just listening to a video about narcissism on youtube where the woman was talking about whether or not the PD person does what they do consciously or unconsciously and she said something fairly profound.  She said that the problem they have is not a brain problem it is a heart problem.  She then tied the heart problem to their emotions, that their entire motivation in life is to be seen as perfect or a "god" or a great parent, etc, etc, etc.

Ive thought for the last little bit that my mom chose what she was doing as she wanted to look good, be superior, be right.  It seems that as she makes these choices she has slipped farther and farther down into a negative cycle of being.  She has to look good at all cost so she must point out all of the things everyone else is doing wrong.

She isnt (or cant check) checking her heart or comparing her heart towards the standard that God has for us.  She isnt checking her heart against absolute truth and willing to be wrong.  Her heart just gets harder and harder it seems.  She cant admit to mistakes, she cant admit to being spiteful, a gossip, hateful, contemptuous and hurtful.  she has chosen the path she is on and as a result her life has taken a much different turn than it might have if she would have kept her heart in check and been willing and able to humble herself and admit things she has done wrong.

I know its not easy to admit when we are wrong.  I sometimes struggle with this myself but it seems that eventually i can check my heart and change paths/backtrack, whatever.  I think people who are non pd have the ability to do this, maybe not perfectly but they can do it.  Perhaps its with God's help (more than likely God plays a part in it) but they are still able to.

What are your thoughts?  Do you see pd behavior as a problem of the heart?
Interesting, I see they don't have empathy like me , they don't have any self awareness or emotional intelligence ! I agree nons have the ability. Humility is something I love lke wise being normal. I do not worship man although they want me to , I worship God he's my saviour . They admit nothing they are perfect , their grandiosity is what allows them to be perfect . Saddos x

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tommom

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2017, 06:22:42 PM »
I would guess that is one way to say it, Sojouner, but I don't know (in my experience) if that is all there is to it. My PDh is quite intelligent, able to be very charming if he wants. He has the ability to play a role that he simply isn't. Is that thinking or feeling?  He does have some things that you might think were 'brain' related, for sure, though. He is a hoarder, for one, and I learned what that comes from - an inability to prioritize. (And compulsive behaviors.) After learning that, I see it is very true, at least in his case. He sees value in things that will never be realized as they are in his mind, so that is definately 'brain' realted (or thinking) behavior to me. But she is quite correct in terms of his emotional injuries are the cause of much of that behavior, I think. His childhood was horrific. (Although as the child of a borderline mother, so was mine.) Perhaps that is what she means. I have been with my h for a long, long time and over the years, the source those wounds have become more apparent to me. I guess I would say it is a combination of both in my opinion.

PDs (at least the ones I have known) are seemingly unable to deal with -in a productive way - the wounds they carry. The wounds cause the problem, but their thinking seems awry in the way to deal with them. Then they also have things -like my H's hoarding- that are clearly related to his thinking. So....I vote both.
"It is not my job to fix other people; everyone is on their own journey."

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raindrop

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2017, 07:11:34 PM »
I think it depends what 'heart' means. All the things you mentioned could be thought of as mind issues as well. All is connected - wrong beliefs cause wrong feeling cause wrong thinking, cause more wrong feeling.

In my opinion everything evil starts with believing a lie, about god, the world or ourselves. It affects our emotions but its also due to our inability to think reflectively about the belief. The emotions that come up are too overwhelming and we go into defense/attack mode. So its the interaction of both at once, the emotions/heart too strong and the mind too weak.
That's my thinking at the moment anyway.
"Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
"Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
Piglet was comforted by this.
- A.A. Milne.

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PinkDress

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 10:50:41 PM »
I think it's a great perspective/truth for PDs.

I listen to a lot of different views through sermons regarding narcissism and I've heard it taught that this is the Jezebel spirit (heart issue/manipulative/cunning).
But just today I heard it put another way too - Biblically we learn about how some people's consciences become "seared". Basically they ignore that little sting of their conscience telling them "no" so long that they no longer feel bad about doing things. I think a person comes to this point in steps:
1. I'll ignore that ping of guilt that I'm doing wrong but still feel it.
2. I'll notice it, but justify it.
3. I don't even care anymore.
4. This is normal. Why are you mad? Some PDs are shocked when you confront them.
"In the long run, the sharpest weapon of all is a kind and gentle spirit." Anne Frank

"God sees people as His own treasures, so be careful how you treat them."

"No one warns you about the amount of mourning in growth."

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sadlee

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2017, 03:56:13 PM »
Yes, I think it is a matter of the heart.  My adult son was in seminary studying to go into full time ministry. I was already seeing a few narc tendencies but then he inherited some money from my mother. Once he had that money oh my.... the bad choices and traits just started multiplying.  I believe God was testing him to see what kind of steward he was going to be with the financial  resources he now had to complete his studies. That money turned him into a full blown narc and now he is not pursuing the ministry, has gone through 3 or 4 jobs since then, lost his house, bad credit,  and his finances are in shambles.  It is scary how someone can get so far off course.  We have been estranged for over a year.  His heart is so stone cold you would never believe he could have been seriously pursuing the ministry.  Absolutely no empathy whatsoever.         

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Danden

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 09:31:58 AM »
I think it is a matter of the heart, which the heart and mind, working together, could not overcome.  The PD person is hurt in their childhood and then gets sad and angry at their situation.  Their overall life circumstances are the factors that determine how they turn out. 

What is their character?  Are they resilient?  Creative?  Empathetic?  Brave?  Understanding of the one who hurt them?  Are they able to come up with an explanation that does not center on themselves as the cause?  Are they able to fight back?  To protect themselves?  Do they have people in their life who understand the situation and support them? Who validate them?  Who encourage them?  Are they extremely talented at something and this gives them something to feel good about themselves?  Do they have good friends?  Or do they have other life difficulties, such as poverty, violence, lack of education, lack of work opportunities, substance abuse, friends and relatives who are out of touch, frequently changing homes, divorced parents, teachers who are indifferent? 

All of the life experiences affect the heart and the mind, working together.  With enough good experiences, one starts to realize "Hey, this feels good, maybe the things that make me feel bad are not the way it is/the way things should be.  Maybe I should keep doing the stuff that makes me feel good."  So the heart pulls on the mind and in turn the mind pulls on the heart to open up and become hopeful.  With enough bad experiences, one starts to feel helpless and hopeless.  The heart tugs on the mind to close itself off to new ideas.

That is the best explanation I have.

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Backwaters

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2017, 03:52:52 AM »
You have come close to the crux of the problem. NPDs as with all humans have a certain idea in their head as to who they are. This is the self concept. It is a bunch of thoughts in our head as to who we are. We all identify with our self image. Identification leads to attachment. And attachment to defensive behavior. The greater the disparity between the self image and the actual reality, greater the anxiety and the need to attack in order to defend. NPDs discount their ineffective behavior and view their own virtues through rose-tinted glasses. Thus deluded, they hold on to their hurtful patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving. Normal humans do this too but to a lesser degree. The root of the suffering of human beings lies in our identification with the self image and our consequent attachment to it.

The way out for us as well as the PDs is to just realize that there is no need to get so attached to a bunch of thoughts in our head. Our sense of self remains same from birth to death. It therefore has to arise from something that is stable, steady, constant. The body we have now is not the body we had when we were one month old. The thought I have now is not the thought I had a moment ago. So too feelings that are just the reflection of our thoughts on our body. So the source of our stable sense of self is something else. After eliminating everything else whatever we arrive at however improbable must be the source of our sense of self. And this is consciousness itself. Realization of this simple fact is awakening to our reality.

Once the attachment is broken, wrong identity eschewed, we are free for the first time to see our patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving as they truly are. Then we can choose to keep and let go of these patterns as we please. This seems to me to be the way out for all, not just the PDs. This is the end of suffering. 

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Sojourner17

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Re: The Root of the Problem...
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 12:48:00 PM »
Blackwaters,  i really like what you had to say.  It basically comes down to a faulty belief system in regards to our sense of self and what we choose to continue to attach ourselves to in regards to our thoughts, actions, what we believe about ourselves and others.

It basically seems to lead to how we should seek out our true identity in who we are as God's children and who we are as Yeshua Messiah's.  Redeemed by the blood of Jesus (Yeshua) and a child of God.  If we are redeemed, if we learn who we are in Yeshua as God's child we can attach correctly and see things in a healthier clearer way. 

I pray someday my mom can see that and ask God for healing and restoration.  I pray that exact same thing for myself and my family almost every day.  I believe that God can do this for us but Id have to say my identity as a child of the living God is still on shaky ground.  Im working on it though!

The root of the problem basically takes us right back to the Garden with Adam and Eve. Im glad  that in the end God restores us and all of His creation and that in the meantime if we put our trust in Him he can light our paths and provide a way for us to move forward in Him.  I do believe He can do this for our PD loved ones as well...i cant NOT believe that he can do that.  Yet, at the same time, i will protect myself and my family from further harm.  There is too much to lose to not do that.
"Tomorrow is a new day with no mistakes in it..." - Anne of Green Gables by L.M. Montgomery