Please help me put this incident in perspective

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Dinah-sore

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Please help me put this incident in perspective
« on: October 11, 2018, 12:19:17 AM »
A few weeks ago, there was a sporting event that my BPDm invited our family over to watch. This sport is something that I played, as well as my DD. We were actually quite dedicated and skilled at this sport. My BPDm knows this, so she invited us over to watch our favorite team play.

When we got there, we brought the food and sat down to watch the sport. My DD announced that she wanted to sit next to me and watch the event because it is "our thing." My BPDm proceeded to make a big deal of how my DD should not be sitting on the couch; she said that my DH should be sitting on the couch. He was in a chair, and he was fine. He was not upset that he was in a chair. I told my BPDm that my DH was fine. My BPDm was on the floor (she likes sitting on the floor; in fact my dad tells her to NOT sit on the floor all day. She is probably at her house on the floor right now). But BPDm was obsessing. She kept mentioning that my DH needs to move from the chair next to my dad's chair, over to the couch. And that my DD needs to sit on the floor or one of the other chairs. In her head I could tell that the couch was the seat of "honor." I kept saying that it was okay, that we were all okay. She wouldn't let it go. Finally she got upset, and started acting like my DD is rude and disrespectful because she is sitting on the couch next to me. Then she forced my DH to move and told my DD to move. It was so frustrating.

By this time my DD was very visibly upset. She texted me, "Am I not important?" She was confused, why couldn't she just sit next to me on the couch? So eventually my DH moved back to the chair, because he wanted to sit in the chair next to my dad to watch the sport. I moved to the chair next to him. My DD moved to the empty couch (by then, all the chairs were full, it was either the floor or the couch, so DD chose the couch). My mother was SEETHING.

After we went home my DD sat with her head in my lap sobbing for a half an hour asking what was the big deal. Why did grandma make such a big deal about her sitting on the couch. She said, "I don't feel welcome at grandma's house." My dad called me the next day and told me that my mom went off, after we left about how disrespectful my DD was to my DH, sitting on the couch and him sitting in the chair. It totally ruined the sporting event that my DD was soooooo looking forward to.

At one point during the game, my DD mentioned a girl who was her opponent a few years ago, who was a really difficult person, and DD made a comment about something that happened in the past where she thought the girl was being a wimp. It wasn't too bad. Normal kid/sports/talk. But my dad told me that my BPDm went off after we left about how prideful my DD is, and how she needs to learn her place and remember that one time she had bad cramps and left practice, so she shouldn't talk bad about this other girl (this other girl was mean to my kid and even called her ugly and fat (and my DD is neither/not that it matters)---so this it bothers me that my BPDm took this girl's side against my DD, but whatever. It was after we left. My BPDm has always done that to me too).

It almost feels like my BPDm has it out for my DD. Is it normal for a grandmother to make a kid feel like this? My dad's mom always nurtured me and made me feel special. She never acted like I was a horrible person for sitting on the couch. I don't think my DD is disrespectful since nobody really wanted to sit where she was sitting. My BPDm ruined her night. And my DD is still angry about it even now. She brought it up today.

I talked to her about it then, and now and explained that I was treated like that growing up too, but I was so used to it that it never made me feel bad. I believed I didn't deserve to be treated better, but she isn't used to being treated like that so it hurts her. And she is right to expect to be treated better.  I just rubbed her head and kissed her and let her cry in my lap.

I would totally appreciate any insight.

My DD doesn't really want anything to do with BPDm at this point and that is sad for her because we are NC with my in-laws. So my BPDm is the only grandma she has left. I have already lessened contact; I am not going to classes with her anymore. But we are not NC with BPDm so I know I will see her on holidays and occasionally. Also, BPDm cried to me the other day that she has never met my 14 year old DD's crush or her friends at school. She literally CRIED that she does not get to hang out with her granddaughter's friends. Is that odd?

On another note, my BPDm has been lying in a more drastic way. It makes me afraid of trusting her when she speaks to me. I wonder if her PD is getting worse. She called in sick to work a few weeks ago, saying she had to go to a friend's funeral (there was no friend and no funeral). And she lied to a lady at church this weekend. She told them she wasn't coming because she had to do some ministry in the hospital nearby!!!! She sat at home in front of the TV and ate McDonalds!!!! I just think it is weird that she is lying about things she doesn't need to lie about, in order to make herself look like a saint. She could have just said she was tired, but no, that isn't good enough, she is praying for the sick at the hospital. WHAT???????  :aaauuugh:

Is that weird to you??????? It is one thing to call in sick, but it is church, you don't need an excuse not to go. She didn't have to do that.

Anyways, please let me know if you have any thoughts about the couch incident or the lying. <3
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 12:23:59 AM by Dinah-sore »
"I had to accept the fact that, look, this is who I am. I have to be who I am, and all of us have a right to be who we are. And whenever we submit our will, because our will is a gift, our will is given to us, whenever we submit our will to someone else's opinion a part of us dies." --Lauryn Hill

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11JB68

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 12:41:32 AM »
I don't know if I have any great advice...and on the face of it the couch thing and the lying are very different...I feel badly for you and for your dd. I've been in those extremely uncomfortable situations with PDs, esp uPDh, where you are doing something normal like sitting in a couch, but in their world you are breaking a 'file's and it devolves so fast. Updh ALSO,despite hating lying, will lie (those weird little lies like you're describing) to make himself look better. It all goes back to them being to control everyone and everything around them. I'm terrible at setting boundaries, but maybe a boundary could be that if you are at you're moms house and she starts to perseverance on something in a way that makes anyone in your foc uncomfortable, that you and your foc will leave.

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 03:27:34 AM »
I think your mother is starting to unspool and her PD may be starting to run the show.  She wants ATTENTION!  Any attention!  Good, bad, doesn't matter - just focus on HER, at all times!

I'll try to break it down, as  I see it:

1.  The sofa - it wasn't about the sofa.  It was about your DD as her latest SCAPEGOAT target, IMO. 

On one hand, your DD is *allegedly* rude and disrespectful for not jumping up and doing as your mom says - and on the other, she hasn't met DD's friends and crush *so she can criticize and mock her for them.*   >:(

Bonus points if she can embarrass DD in front of them.   :(

You're putting up more boundaries - you're not so easy to target, so she's decided to pick on DD, instead.

I promise - if your DH and DD had switched chairs/places, your mom would have found something else to go off about.

They always do.  When they need to FOOM, nothing is going to stop them.  :roll:

Advice - your DD spends LESS time with her.  And the next time you're over and your mom starts fussing about this or that, LEAVE, IMMEDIATELY, with a calm, "I can see you're upset, so we'll go home."   :ninja:

And whomever is telling your mom about DD's personal info - that needs to stop.  If it's you - no more.  If it's DD, you might want to print off the section on Medium Chill and go over it with her, so she knows how to put your mom on an information diet.   :yes:

Her personal information was used against her.  That stops NOW.   :thumbup:

Please keep in mind that NO grandparent is better than a BAD grandparent and your DD is at the age she's going to start wanting to detach - let her.

If she'd rather go to a friend's than spend time with your mom - I think that's a splendid idea!   8-)

2.  The lies and sudden Sainthood.

Yes, she KNOWS something is up with you and your FOC - none of you are under her thrall, you're distancing yourselves and putting order to chaos, and she can't STAND it.

So here come the lies.

Didi was constantly cleaning her house and closets and donating what she didn't need to the poor, crocheting scarves for them, and praying for them, as well as sick parishioners.  She was super-religious and attended Midnight Mass, every single week.

Here's the reality:  Didi was a hoarder and would only clean out stuff she thought she could get me to wear (I was her charity!   :aaauuugh:), and when I refused the stuff (instead of saying okay and dropping it off at Goodwill), it would just go right back where it came from; the bit about the scarves was true, but only in as far as it added to her yarn hoard.   :roll:

Midnight Mass was really watching mass on TV and praying for the sick people - well, I can tell you I am more beautiful and talented than Beyonce, but it doesn't mean it's true.   :bigwink:

In my opinion and experience, your mom is gearing up for something BIG.

And that BIG thing is getting herself installed at your house, where she can constantly terrorize your DD, have you at her beck and call, 24/7 - and will always know where you are, because, in her warped thoughts, you OWE her for raising you.   :stars:

I've read the things you've written about your childhood -  like my own, FLIES would have been better parents!   :aaauuugh:

But...she got a *power trip* off treating you terribly, and it's the same power trip she's getting now, treating your DD so badly, and raging about her needing to know her place.

Where IS her place, exactly?   :???:

In my mind, it's studying and applying herself and deciding on a college major that will not only bring her fulfillment, but economic stability and comfort.   8-)

In your mom's mind, it's ground down under her heel.   :blink:

No matter what your mom says about her "asthma" - on some level, she knows it's more than that, and if she's anything like Didi, she's going to be hell-bent on sticking it to you.

Didi also finally admitted to asthma - but not emphysema - even when was put on oxygen *and still smoked.*   :o

Your mom eats, instead - and lies about it, but makes sure YOU know it.

I think your mom's facade is cracking - she'll keep telling those lies about how pious she is, while seething with resentment and RAGE inside, and keep being "sick" and your father (THE ultimate Flying Messenger Monkey, IMO) just doesn't know what to DO with her, because he actually doesn't CARE and wants to fob her off onto you.   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

And there you have it - the Perfect Storm of Your Mom Becomes YOUR Problem.

Dad can't deal, dad can't help her, dad won't help her, it falls on ME.

NO, it does NOT.   :no_shake:

I think this is where you're at:  Your dad actually doesn't care if she lives or dies - he's got lots of girls who'd like to be his friend, after all    :roll:  - so he'll call you again when your mom has another respiratory event and try to get you to make a decision.

Tell him to CALL AN AMBULANCE - and hang up.

That's the *only* decision you're making - anything after that is dependent on whether she has a Health Care Directive or Living Will, in regard to her care.

If your Dad wants YOU to be her Health Care Proxy - NO.

He picked her, so HE gets the honor.

You know your mom is going to have another respiratory event - she's going to make sure of it.

And she's probably going to make sure that it's worse than the last time, hoping to kick your FOG back into high gear.

Didi also started going into overdrive when the weather turned - and I think her goal was to be here by Thanksgiving, away from Ray, away from the hoard and her problems, and *inflict* all of it on us - Ray coming by, her constant shopping, and us being held hostage to her extreme moods about herself, but *utter indifference* to the problems she was creating here.

I think your mom is starting to set up the same end-game. 

And it still scares me half to death, nearly 5 years after I avoided it.

I think more distance is in order -  keep your holiday plans as *tightly* wrapped as you keep ANY personal information - tell her *nothing* - and unfortunately, I think it's time to start treating your dad as an Enemy Combatant.

Did he REALLY need to tell you your mother had a meltdown about your DD?   :no:

Of course not.  He's trying to fob her off on YOU, because he's SICK of it, but will never leave her, which means he'd also be a permanent fixture at your house.

I know it seems a bit far-fetched and even extreme, but it's the reality I lived - and the future I avoided.

She's got a plan - they always do.

And that plan usually - wrongly - means landing on you like a freaking house.

 :hug:

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Thru the Rain

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 03:32:13 AM »
It almost feels like my BPDm has it out for my DD. Is it normal for a grandmother to make a kid feel like this?

- In my own experience, no that's not normal at all.

She literally CRIED that she does not get to hang out with her granddaughter's friends. Is that odd?

- Yes, that's pretty odd.

I wonder if your M is starting to see you as a lost cause and now wants to turn to your DD for her supply?

You may be telling yourself that if you're always there when your M and DD interact, you can protect your DD. But with this recent interaction, even with you in the same room, your poor DD was really hurt and spent at least the next day very upset.

It's not your fault you can't stop your M from hurting your DD. Like many of us here, and as you said in your post, you were raised to feel this behavior is normal.

Now you know it's not normal and your M appears to be actively hurting your DD for her own supply. You may want to really consider cutting back on the time your DD spends with your M.

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11JB68

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 11:20:10 AM »
Oh, Also - IME, uPDh will go after DS21 - I truly believe - as a way of 'punishing' me. He knows I care deeply about DS21, is envious of our relationship, and if I try to defend DS21, then uPDh ramps up the verbal/emotional 'abuse' 1) against me in front of DS, and 2) directed at DS in front of me - I believe because he knows it will get to me.
So there may be some of this in what your m is doing - go after your DD as a way to upset you. Just a guess/thought/idea.

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daughter

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 11:25:26 AM »
You describe a situation where your mother (again) disrupts the occasion with her inappropriate demands, her effort to dictate her demands, to CONTROL you, and in this instance, your DH and DD too.  Me, I think your mother wants her same lack of boundaries, her same inappropriate expectations and demands, her same control that she had/has over you, over your daughter as well, and now that you're OOTF, you're seeing it more clearly.  Your mother was mean to DD during this visit, in many aspects, behaving inappropriately, overtly controlling, manipulative and combative.  Perhaps you and DD left early; I hope so, because this visits need to be curtailed as soon as her bad behavior occurs, promptly and you swiftly packing-up and calmly heading out rather than enabling that bad behavior to persist.

Me, I'd let DD determine how much contact she wants with grandma, and if it's none at the moment, I'd allow her decision to stand unquestioned.  Remember: "no grandparents" is far better than the badly-behaved pd-disordered grandma presently picking-on DD and you.  And your mother has ZERO ROLE in meeting/befriending DD's friends; again, this sounds like same enmeshment-expectation that she enforced upon you for far too long.  The tears makes that expressed expectation that much creepier, manipulative emotional extortion to extract your (and DD's) compliance to an inappropriate demand.

I think it's important to remember that your mother's "happiness" seems reliant upon CONTROL and ENMESHMENT over you and your family.  That's a long-enforced but fundamentally dysfunctional dynamic that you shouldn't endure, or indulge anymore.  Your father seems detached from his own role as her husband, in helping her manage/contain her feelings, and has foisted his partner-responsibilities upon you.  Please refuse to play that spouse-role any further.  Your mother seems to be a tremendous emotional weight for you to carry, and likely has a significant negative effect on you, your marriage, and clearly now your DD too.  I suggest more boundaries, more detachment, fewer visits, and allowing DH and DD to detach altogether, excusing them from all visits with exception of major holidays, short monitored visits at birthdays, etc.  And NO, don't facilitate your mother attend DD's school and social events; allow DD that personal privacy.       

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LSK1999

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 04:24:17 PM »
All I can say is this behavior is all about control...I second everything daughter said in the post right above this  :yeahthat: Please recognize that it is damaging to your daughter and realize how inappropriate and ridiculous this behavior is for any grandmother. The answer to your question is NOOOOO normal grandmother's would NEVER behave this way towards their grandchild. My NM damaged my daughters so badly with all her ridiculous antics it makes me sick that I couldn't see how terribly wrong this behavior is. (We can't see it's wrong when it's all we have ever known). I'm a grandma...I would NEVER say something like that to my grand daughter in fact I would probably let her sit right in front of the TV blocking other's view if she wanted to sit there ( LOL....yeah I spoil her) but you see my point. I know it's hard it's your mother and we have been brainwashed and trained not to question their behavior....but it's down right WRONG and ridiculous and your poor daughter. Your mom now wants to scapegoat and control your daughter, there is no other explanation for such behavior. If she was just trying to stir up drama she could have done it in a million different ways, she is targeting her and there is a reason.

My NM tried this with my daughters as well only I always for some reason had the ability to flip out on her when she did it to them. I would lose it and go psycho (not a good way to deal) but it always sent her a clear message about how she would treat my children....I never learned however to do it for myself. I protected everyone from my NM's abuse except myself...I did this for years and years. First my siblings, then my children, people in public, WOW. Sorry all this is beside the point....I learned the truth is the best for the kids. Explain grandma's behavior is totally WRONG and NOT NORMAL and YESSS she matters..poor kiddo. I know it's tough to wrap our minds around the fact that our M's would actually try to send this message to our kids....but I'm sorry to tell you....this is what they are trying to do. My heart goes out to you this is never easy to deal with....

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One

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 04:59:33 PM »
It sounds like your mother is trying to manufacture offenses with your daughter, rile her up to get her to react to make her look like the bad granddaughter.  She's trying to scapegoat her like she scapegoats you.  My mother used to do this to me with equally ridiculous offenses.  She would get me so upset that I would either go into a rage or burst into tears and this was all throughout my 20's.  In fact, the last time I saw my mother was over something like this and I ran out of her house hysterical.  My enStepfather would always back her up no matter how absurd the offense was and while he would take over the conversation to berate me on her behalf she would back up behind him out of his line of sight to silently point and laugh at me, because enStepdad was going along with all of it and there was nothing I could do about it.  So, no, it's not normal and your daughter has every right to be upset and so should you.  Your mother is sadistic and gets her pleasure out of hurting you and now your daughter.  I would stay away from her and keep your daughter away from her.  She is unsafe to be around.  There's nothing you can do to remedy the relationship with a sadist.  I wouldn't believe any of her tears.  She's probably only crying, because she recognizes this tactic works well on you, but I assure you it is disingenuine.  In my experience with narcissists it isn't so much what are they lying about, but what aren't they lying about.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 05:28:01 PM by One »
Enjoy the silence.

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LSK1999

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 05:48:17 PM »
It sounds like your mother is trying to manufacture offenses with your daughter, rile her up to get her to react to make her look like the bad granddaughter.  She's trying to scapegoat her like she scapegoats you.  My mother used to do this to me with equally ridiculous offenses.  She would get me so upset that I would either go into a rage or burst into tears and this was all throughout my 20's.  In fact, the last time I saw my mother was over something like this and I ran out of her house hysterical.  My enStepfather would always back her up no matter how absurd the offense was and while he would take over the conversation to berate me on her behalf she would back up behind him out of his line of sight to silently point and laugh at me, because enStepdad was going along with all of it and there was nothing I could do about it.  So, no, it's not normal and your daughter has every right to be upset and so should you.  Your mother is sadistic and gets her pleasure out of hurting you and now your daughter.  I would stay away from her and keep your daughter away from her.  She is unsafe to be around.  There's nothing you can do to remedy the relationship with a sadist.  I wouldn't believe any of her tears.  She's probably only crying, because she recognizes this tactic works well on you, but I assure you it is disingenuine.  In my experience with narcissists it isn't so much what are they lying about, but what aren't they lying about.

 :yeahthat: Great advice One!! It's so hard to get over that hill to realize how truly cruel and heartless their behavior is, once we get there it's infuriating. YES...don't expose your daughter to this horrible treatment anymore....it is truly mean and nasty with no good intention!

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illogical

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 09:00:51 PM »
Hi Dinah,

I think you have to decide how much contact you want with your mother.  From what you've posted lately, you have a lot of contact with her.  You attend the same church, you go to a bible study, you frequently get together-- e.g., for things like the viewing of the sporting event you describe in your post.

Maybe ask yourself-- What do I expect from these encounters with mother?  Let's take the viewing of the sporting event.  Seemingly innocuous?  Good time to be had by all?

No.  And double "No".  Your mother uses every encounter with you to try to control you, to try to one-up you, to try to hammer home the idea that you are still in the "child role" while she is the omnipotent parent.  Think about that for a second.  You aren't her child anymore.  I repeat, you aren't her child anymore.  You are now an adult with your own family, your own life.  And contrary to what she would put forth, you no longer need her to manage your life. 

As has been discussed in many of your posts here, your relationship with your mother is out of control and needs boundaries.  And the boundaries must come with consequences.  Boundaries without consequences are not effective. 

The consequences for boundaries include limiting contact.  If you engage frequently with your mother, you are opening up yourself (and your family) to further damage by her, as she will not stop at trying to manipulate, abuse, control and destroy you.  That last phrase-- "destroy you" may seem harsh, but it's true.  She wants to destroy you.  Her past actions have proven that she is jealous of you and your family.  She wants control-- at any cost.  Just look at this post, where she not only upset you, but she had your daughter in tears.

No, I cannot tell you how much contact you should have with your mother.  But I would say that any contact with her is going to damage you and your family.  It's a bit like sipping from a poison cup.  I would advise taking stock of the contact you have with her.  Maybe journal your encounters and see what you have gained, or more importantly, have lost with each encounter.  Then set a course of how much pain you are willing to endure, realizing that each encounter will bring about pain.
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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Dinah-sore

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 09:39:42 PM »
Thank you all so much for your comments. You really helped me to process my feelings. I am angry at her. I am also angry that she is not someone who I can deal with the anger in a healthy way with. I am mad at her. But I have to pretend like everything is fine. That makes me angry too.

You are right, she did scapegoat my DD. What a good way to put it. And it is all for control. She has to control everyone. i wish I would have looked her in the eye and said "NO. Stop it. If my DD is not welcome to sit on your couch, then we are leaving." And left. You see, I have changed so much. but then when you suggest leaving, my eyes get big, and I think to myself, 'Wow Dinah, that wasn't even a thought in your head. You didn't even think that you could leave.' I slip into the FOG without knowing it, so easily. I have so much more learning and growing to do.

I am sitting here knowing that like you said illogical, she IS trying to destroy me. She may not know she is trying to destroy me, to her maybe she thinks she is trying to destroy the "displeasing" parts of me, but then all I will be left with is the parts that please her. She is trying to destroy any part of me that does not exist to please her.

She has been EXTRA needy today. She called earlier and I explained that I was working, so she decided to be brief. But just in that one phone call she told me that she was going to start taking a MLM supplement that could be dangerous to someone with her health, baiting me into an argument. I didn't bite. I said, "Oh okay." with a boring tone of voice. Not upset or happy. Then she said, "I know you don't want me to." I had never said that, she is trying to pretend have an ongoing argument about this. I said, "I never said that. You are a grown woman. You need to make your own choices." I changed the subject.

Then there would be these awkward pauses. She was hoping I would offer information about my life. I didn't. I sat quiet. (THAT is so hard for me, by the way, I naturally fill up the awkward silences to everyone feels happy--but that is not my job). So it was painfully awkward. She would ask questions about my life. Everything was "fine" or "good." One word answers. Eventually we got off the phone.

Then she texted asking if I could meet her for coffee tomorrow morning. I texted back a few hours later that I couldn't. That I am busy.

Then she texted and asked if she could take me and my kids to a late lunch after they get out of school tomorrow. I haven't texted her back yet. But none of my kids want to go with her, they said so. And that actually makes me sad. But that is soooo her fault, not my fault. I will decline that invitation too, but wait until later. I don't want to respond to all of her texts immediately.

I honestly think she is feeling bad, so she wants me to step in and make her feel happy. Not my job. (I say that, but then my feelings betray my bravado, because honestly there is still a place in my brainwashed mind that feels that it really is my job).

I hate that feeling of her neediness. I need to detach and really force myself to not feel responsible for her sadness.

I am trying so hard to detach and to limit contact. I know I need to do better. We have a family birthday this month, and then thanksgiving coming up. So there will be those two events. But even that makes me cringe. I know it is rotten to say, but last year we did not celebrate the holidays together because of her health problems, and it was so peaceful. I am terrified of her parking herself over here ALL DAY. She likes to come early in the morning to help cook too.

As I was typing this, she just called again and left a voice message. We have already talked on the phone twice today. Plus a couple texts. And she has the day off but that doesn't mean that I don't have a busy day. I feel like she gets bored, lonely, or depressed and she thinks she will reach out to me, but then when I am not entertaining enough, then she acts all sad and needy. I don't want to call her back. I don't want to text her back. I don't want to go to lunch with her. My kids don't want to either. And that is so sad.

"I had to accept the fact that, look, this is who I am. I have to be who I am, and all of us have a right to be who we are. And whenever we submit our will, because our will is a gift, our will is given to us, whenever we submit our will to someone else's opinion a part of us dies." --Lauryn Hill

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LSK1999

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 11:22:14 PM »
Your doing the best you can...and that's great. This crap isn't easy and no one would ever understand it if they hadn't lived through it. I know exactly what you mean when you say it never crossed your mind you could leave.....that is POWERFUL...I don't think any of us ever really had that cross our minds before the FOG started to lift.  We were programmed to allow this since birth....it ain't easy to overcome it. The anxiety and worry we are somehow in the wrong are crippling sometimes...but we are not. Your mother's behavior was wrong and inappropriate but we are TERRIFIED of just saying it...like it will be the end of the world. I am telling you this is all 100% from childhood trauma and these beliefs being literally programmed into your head. It's like we are engaging in psychological warfare because of all the FOG. This really is a process and it's an ugly one.....do NOT blame yourself or be hard on yourself. I feel ridiculous sometimes at nearly 43 to admit to myself that I am still TERRIFIED of my mother.....hmmmm.....do good mothers instill feelings of terror in their children???? If you are ever doubting yourself ask yourself questions like this.....am I afraid of her? Why if she loved me would I be afraid of her? Abuse, terrorizing us as children, these things stuck in our brains from early childhood aren't going to go away quickly or easily.

I just wanted to remind you that your not alone...don't beat yourself up...no one deserved to be dealt the hand we have....the process will be different for everybody. I just want you to know that allowing your kids to say no " I don't want to be around Grandma because she hurts my feelings" is an amazing  and hard step....but in the end your loyalty belongs to them not your mother. We aren't supposed to protect our parents....they were supposed to protect us and they not only failed at that but they cause harm in place of it. Sending you love and hugs and remember you aren't alone...we are all living this  :bighug:

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 01:54:24 AM »
I agree - you ARE doing great!   :yes:

We're conditioned since birth that her horrible behavior is *normal* and we just have to accept it, no questions asked, and be our moms' *caretaker* and personal fixer for all her woes. 

If we didn't, we just might not survive - and that's a powerful lesson!

That's not, "Uh oh, she's gonna be mad, and I'm gonna be grounded!" - it's a genuine FEAR for our lives, that stays with us, even in adulthood.

But coming here *helps.*  We realize no, we do NOT have to put up with it and our fears are those terrified children inside us.  We're adults, and logically, we can remove ourselves from danger and abuse - but sometimes it doesn't occur to us, or occur to us that we can say, "Enough."

Sometimes it takes me hours to realize I've been abused or treated badly, even now.  It's something I'm working on, being more in the moment and not freezing, and if my DH is out of line, I call him on it at the time, or very shortly after the incident - not days later, when it's dawned on me just what happened.

Seeing your mom treat your DD so horribly is also a huge wake-up moment.  You know DD doesn't deserve that kind of crap, and you don't expect her to put up with it.

We don't have kids, but Didi used to Scapegoat certain *cats* of ours.  CATS!  She's SCAPEGOATING CATS!!   :aaauuugh: :???: :blink:

My feeling is there should be consequences for this, and personally, I'd tell her she's NOT invited for Thanksgiving.  You and your FOC will be celebrating alone, and you'll see her a day or two later - and that's your final decision. 

I'd sugar coat it a bit, though - the kids are growing up SO fast and you'd like to have your own family traditions with them, so you'll be celebrating  all holidays with your FOC, and seeing your parents at a later date or time.   :ninja:

You got a taste of *freedom* last year, and I'd be hard put to let go of that.  If all she can do is stir up trouble, she can stay home and sulk over a can of soup or a turkey sandwich.

Didi's consequence for *scapegoating cats* (I still can't believe I actually typed that out!   :wacko:) was to NOT be invited over, ever again, due to the constant "renovations" in our 100-year-old home, and all the DUST.   :ninja:

Didi would also get super-clingy is she knew she'd crossed a line, or was just feeling bored and left-out of life, by her own doing.  She'd try to rely on me, and like you, I had to resort to, "I can't - I'm busy.  Maybe another time."

That's all I'd tell her - any info, in her hands, was ammunition, so I wouldn't give her any, and she perceived it as *abandonment* and *rejection.*

Well, too bad.  I shouldn't be afraid of somebody who claims to love me, and wonder what they're going to do next in an order to control my life!

I think you did an *awesome* job on Medium Chilling her and yes, your answer about the MLM supplement was spot-on:  it's your life, do what you want.

You are NOT responsible for her care, her moods, or her emotions - or her health, or what she eats, any of it.  Those are her decisions, and as a competent adult, she can make all the bad decisions she wants.

But...watch out for THIS little trap:  because YOU didn't explicitly tell her not to take that supplement, somehow it gets twisted around in her head that any problems she has because of it are going to be *all your fault.*

Yup.  She'll just blame you, like normal.  When Didi would do that to me, I'd just roll my eyes and say, "That's your opinion and I'm not going to discuss it with you," or, "I guess that's one way to look at it - that's some amazing weather we're having, huh?"

Cue her slamming the phone down.   :roll:

You're right - you are NOT responsible for that black hole inside of her.  If she really loved you, you wouldn't be afraid of her, and your kids wouldn't dislike her so much, to the point of not wanting to be around her.

I'd take my cues from them, honestly.  If they don't want her around - you'll abide by their wishes, or they can spend time with friends while she's there.

Every day, you get a little bit stronger, and every time you put up a boundary that isn't violated, you become a little more *confident* - which leads to MORE boundaries.

Keep doing what you're doing!   8-)

You've GOT this!   :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

 :hug:

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Zebrastriped

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2018, 08:54:17 AM »
Dinha-sore, I found those open ended, all day events extremely stressful.  Even holiday interactions with my uBPDmom were carefully planned to be short, have lots of activity to mask the uneasiness and supervised by my sister.  I'm the second string daughter, no reason for uBPDmom to visit just me and my FOC and I was good with that.

It was useful for me to practice medium chill and some of the other techniques here.  You might benefit from practicing exit strategies.  visit becomes uncomfortable, you remember the errand you have to run, the kid's bookreport, overdue library book.  I went so far as to have my cell phone ring tone as a button on my phone so I could fake receiving a call if need be.  (yes, flight is my go to response)

For thanksgiving, one idea is to suggest that the kitchen will be full of food that you are making, with no room for whatever dish you mother makes well.  suggest she make it at home and bring it over for the start of dinner at a specific time of your choosing.  I've no ideas for an exit strategy, the last few years my parents fell asleep on my living room sofa in the middle of the afternoon.  I laughed, shooed everyone away and left them to it.

I see you making alot of progress, shutting down the information train and not responding to texts right away.  Its tough to deal with the sad.  I hope you can find a path you are comfortable with.

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One

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2018, 11:38:10 AM »
I honestly think she is feeling bad, so she wants me to step in and make her feel happy. Not my job. (I say that, but then my feelings betray my bravado, because honestly there is still a place in my brainwashed mind that feels that it really is my job).

I hate that feeling of her neediness. I need to detach and really force myself to not feel responsible for her sadness.

From what I've read on your posts of your mother I don't think this is the case.  I don't think your mother is feeling sad and I don't think she wants to step in and have you make her feel happy.   I also don't think your mother is depressed, even if she says any of these things to you I think these are just things she is saying to play on your sympathies.   I think what she wants is your vulnerability so she can go back to hurting you, because that is what brings her pleasure...hurting you.  My mother was not as bad as your mother, but quite similar and it gave her great joy to tear me down and when my enStepfather came along she loved the power she had over him.  It was a lethal combination.  It made her happy to hurt me and toy with my enStepfather and she did not hide it and when I would call her on it she would smile and not apologize for it.  My enStepfather willingly sacrificed his self worth over to my mother to make her happy and it wouldn't be the first time he would sell a child out for some shit relationship with a sadistic woman.  I don't think your mother is unhappy.  She may be frustrated she does not have the unlimited access to you that she craves and she may be feeling panic that she's losing her hold on you.  The kind of "happiness" she wants from a person you should not be willing to give.  She wants to be able to do whatever she wants to you and with you and I assure you it's not going to feel good.
Enjoy the silence.

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Fiasco

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2018, 01:22:30 PM »
Dinah please don't make your kids hang out with her against their stated wishes. Your first loyalty is to them. Period. Holiday contact is more than enough for people too young to even hide behind a nice cocktail 😜

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Medowynd

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2018, 02:03:04 PM »
Maybe your family can take a short trip over Thanksgiving.  After the way your mother behaved around your daughter, she deserves a timeout for the harassment and torment of your daughter.  If your kids don't want to be around her, including the holidays, respect their feelings.  My daughters couldn't stand my mother, (she constantly yelled, complained and made derogatory remarks) so we cut our time with her to a minimum.  Don't fell guilty about putting your family first and letting your dad take care of your mother.  She is not your responsibility.

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qcdlvl

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2018, 03:10:50 PM »
Dinah please don't make your kids hang out with her against their stated wishes. Your first loyalty is to them. Period. Holiday contact is more than enough for people too young to even hide behind a nice cocktail 😜
:yeahthat:
Your daughter is already interpreting neither you nor your DH standing up for her as her being much less important than her GM. One has a responsibility towards one's children because they had no say in entering a relationship with their parents and because they enter the world helpless. Children have a duty towards good, loving parents, not towards abusive, neglectful or toxic ones because, again they had no say in entering the relationship. Grandchildren of course also had no say. So yes, you're responsible for your DD, not for your M and your DD has zero moral duty towards her GM. Your M may well argue it's her house, her rules - but that's reason to leave and never take your DD there again if she doesn't want to. Is there any other abusive adult you would take your DD to see (I say this not solely because of this incident but because of everything else you've posted about your M)? Why should your M get a free pass on being abusive?

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It almost feels like my BPDm has it out for my DD. Is it normal for a grandmother to make a kid feel like this?

No, it's clearly pathological.

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Also, BPDm cried to me the other day that she has never met my 14 year old DD's crush or her friends at school. She literally CRIED that she does not get to hang out with her granddaughter's friends. Is that odd?

It's more than just odd, it's outright creepy.


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My DD doesn't really want anything to do with BPDm at this point and that is sad for her because we are NC with my in-laws. So my BPDm is the only grandma she has left.

It is sad, but no grandparents at all is still better than abusive ones.

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I don't think my DD is disrespectful since nobody really wanted to sit where she was sitting.

I agree with you. In addition, from everything else you've told us it's clear to me this is not a one-off, that her GM is generally unreasonable and abusive.

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My BPDm ruined her night. And my DD is still angry about it even now. She brought it up today.

Anger is a healthy, normal response in context, I think.

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Orthocone

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2018, 07:09:17 PM »
Can't add anything else, but I agree it sounds like she's scapegoating your DD, and it's not acceptable or condonable behavior.  Teenagers have enough problems.

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raindrop

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Re: Please help me put this incident in perspective
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2018, 02:17:20 AM »
Hey Dinah-sore! I haven't been around much so I haven't seen the latest unfoldings of your story but I wanted to echo what other people have said - the way your mom treated DD is NOT normal, and I think that if DD doesn't want to spend time with her you should defend her right not to. Don't make her go there if she doesn't want to - she will be thankful for your protection. Get that mama bear side of you going :) You can do it!

The lying thing re:church - I guess she just wants to look good to her church friends. That way they may be more likely to side with her than you as well!

Also as others have said - this is happening because you're getting stronger! Keep putting up those boundaries. Stick up for yourself, and DD!

And we're in your corner - we all struggle with the same issues and we're all moving forward together.
 :grouphug:
"Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
"Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
Piglet was comforted by this.
- A.A. Milne.