NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"

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Zen_Warrior

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NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« on: November 18, 2018, 05:02:59 AM »
Do any of you have trouble talking to people who are still "in the fog" (IOW people who don't see toxic behavior for what it is)?

I feel like the better I get at spotting PD tactics and then setting boundaries, the less tolerance I have for people who don't see toxic behavior for what it is (so they then don't set boundaries). What's frustrating is that this includes most people I interact with (including my parents and my husband). It helps that my husband sees it with my uPD sister, but when it comes to his own family, co-workers, and friends he's clueless.

I just want to yell at these people, "It's NOT okay that she threatened you with a knife - that's not a normal thing for a daughter to do to her mom!" and "It's NOT okay that she was worried about how your hair looked when you were in the hospital with pneumonia! That's not a normal thing for a mother to be worried about!" and "It's NOT okay that she only replies to your messages when she needs a letter of recommendation! She's not your friend - she's using you!"

...often I do say these things, and they agree in the moment, but the next time we talk it's like it never happened.  :stars:

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clara

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Re: NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2018, 02:29:38 PM »
I've tried to calmly, gently explain to others who are being hurt by a PD that...they're being hurt by a PD!  I've even used the term "personality disorder" but it seems you can't connect the dots for them. 

I think one of the problems is the concept of someone having a PD and not just "acting out" or something more manageable is unfathomable to a lot of people.  I've dealt with this myself with people I know full well are PDs, no question because they check off most or even all of the list of symptoms!  And I still have trouble believing they can be like that, that there isn't some way they can change, or perhaps have changed for the better.  When I think of their behavior, I still have trouble connecting it to them, as people, because I want to see them as normal as  anyone else.  I don't want to believe they're manipulators who have and have never had any real consideration for me and that there's no salvaging the relationship (or at least not to a realistic degree).  So, when I get annoyed with others who I see as being victimized, who are apologizing for the PD or who are making accomodations for them, I try to remember my own conflicted feelings over PDs I've cared about and understand that the process of coming to terms with the disorder is extremely, extremely difficult.

But that doesn't mean I keep my mouth shut, nosiree!  I still express my opinion about what I see going on, although I've stopped berating the other person for their blindness and try to lead them slowly, giving some facts or info a small piece at a time.  Sometimes it seems there's not much else you can do.

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newlife33

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Re: NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2018, 03:43:23 PM »
Yup, I work with a guy every other day who is still deep in the fog.  It's really annoying how insecure and full of himself he is, it's sad and grating.

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all4peace

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Re: NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2018, 03:55:31 PM »
I have found this threatening in the past. Sometimes still do, when it involves someone close to me. I've tried to step more into "my space" and simply speak the truth as I see it, as I experience it. For example, rather than saying "The PD person is trying to manipulate us with their words!!", I might say "I have learned to pay more attention to behavior than words." I think most of us don't like to feel like someone is trying to talk us out of our core beliefs, but we're more receptive if someone simply states how they see things. It creates enough distance for us to be able to examine their beliefs rather than feel defensive about ours. Hope that makes sense.

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Latchkey

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Re: NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2018, 11:17:16 PM »
ZW,
I think itís important to realize what is obvious to you as observer is often not that way to someone in the midst of it.
Also, there are a great many people who simply can not walk away from their PD situations and if you call it for what it is you end up alienating them.
I really recommend reading ďI donít have to make everything all betterĒ
It helped me to see that my wishing to fix or offer advice was not helping the person to fix their own problems.
 
The book talks about reflective listening and asking questions.

Itís ok to walk away too when you are getting angry at someone you see as in the FOG.

Having compassion and tolerance and boundaries with those still in FOG can go a long way toward helping you heal.
Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living.
-Mother Jones
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There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you.
-Maya Angelou
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When we have the courage to do what we need to do, we unleash mighty forces that come to our aid.

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Zen_Warrior

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Re: NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2018, 06:31:33 PM »
Thank you all for sharing your perspectives!

I have found this threatening in the past. Sometimes still do, when it involves someone close to me.

This is exactly what it feels like to me! I now realize my uPD sister made my parents choose between us and they consistently chose her because they figured that since I was more rational and resilient (even though I was younger) I didn't need their attention or affection as much. I had to secretly whisper affection to my parents because if my sister heard me tell them I loved them she'd throw a FIT. I still don't understand that one, but from reading the bit there is available about "covetious sociopaths" I wonder if she was trying to sabotage my relationship with my parents.

Having my parents believe my sister has changed and being unable to recognize her use of fear, obligation, and guilt feels like maybe my sister's attempts to gaslight me were accurate: "maybe I am over-reacting," but I'll never trust my sister after she threatened my mom with a knife! I'll never think she CAN change after that!

I've tried to step more into "my space" and simply speak the truth as I see it, as I experience it. For example, rather than saying "The PD person is trying to manipulate us with their words!!", I might say "I have learned to pay more attention to behavior than words."

Now that you say it, I can remember doing this without totally realizing it, and it totally worked!!! Great suggestion! Thank you!  :)

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Swarley

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Re: NO tolerance for people who don't "get it"
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 11:28:19 PM »
IME, most people are somewhat In The Fog about the PD people in their life and prefer to be there. It can be frustrating but I can deal with it up to the point where they want me to live ITF with them. Nope -at that point I will be very clear about what they can and cannot expect from me.