I actually believe NF to a certain extent when he says he doesn't know what he's done wrong. I think he compartmentalises all the awful things he does and he's so antisocial, narcissistic and entitled that he truly doesn't believe that social rules should apply to him.
I wouldn't even know where to begin if I were to write him a letter trying to explain my reasons for no contact. I don't think I'm qualified to offer up guidance on introspection to someone with no emotional intelligence whatsoever. I think even a trained professional with specialist expertise in his personality disorder would struggle.
There was no single thing that he did either, just a couple of straws that broke the camel's back (after decades of the camel dragging itself along the ground and begging for some kind of respite). It was a culmination of years of intense stress, anxiety and trauma from dealing with his ongoing behaviour. A letter could pretty much just be shortened to: "Your behaviour is/has always been consistently disrespectful and hurtful and I don't want to be subjected to it". This level of self awareness is so straightforward and basic though to the point of being laughable - how on earth does anyone need to have that spelled out to them?
Being mean = people not wanting to be around you. You've fallen out with dozens of people over the years and your other two children aren't keen on knowing you either. I don't get what is so hard about this, it's just basic socialisation. :blink:
I think they know but at the same time they think we deserved it, so they don't understand why we're so upset. In my case, it was my mother who was the N, though she definitely knew what she had done to deserve NC. She always acted like she had amnesia and couldn't remember the conflict between us, but after I went NC she sent me a multi-page screed in which she suddenly remembered every detail. She did tell everyone in her orbit that she had no idea what she had done wrong and turned people against me with a smear campaign, so I never made any attempt to send a letter. She knew.
My father is a different story. He was her enabler and believed every lie he was told about me. After my Nmother died he disinherited me for having "hurt" my mother, and made sure I knew the reason. I went NC with him after that but I really sense that he has no idea what he's done to deserve it. I've thought about writing a letter telling him how hurt I was when he sided with her, but I really don't think he remembers any specific events. I'm sure he thinks he was parenting a "problem child" and probably doesn't get why I'd be traumatized. But a revenge disinheritance is pretty brutal. As you said, "how on earth does anyone need to have that spelled out to them?"
So I really understand what you're saying. While some specific events are more traumatizing than others, narc trauma really is something cumulative that builds up over many years until our bodies come undone from all the stress.
The other problem with writing a letter is that an N is likely to weaponize it and use it against you by showing it to others as proof that you're a mean and vindictive child. Sending a letter probably won't get through to your father at all, but might be used to cause you further pain. If you're NC you may not care, but if you still maintain relationships with other family members anything that can be shared could end up hurting you. You might feel better to write it all down with no intention of showing him. Share it here, or with your therapist, but not with him. :sadno:
Hoo boy, can I relate to this!
My uPDm has openly told me 'we [she and enuPDF] just don't know what we're supposed to have done wrong.' :stars:
I know this because they spread this view through our small local community and it has got back to me. Plus this is exactly the cringey, martyrish, histrionic way my uPDm speaks.
The thing is: I did tell them. They just would. not. hear it.
First, about two years ago, I tried to speak to them about the long-standing and more recent issues that broke that poor overwhelmed camel's spine. Their response when I tried to talk with them was to stare about the room, smile oddly and pretend I wasn't speaking (uPDm), and rage and scream irrational gibberish at me (enuPDf). What I was able to understand amongst all the insanity was that I was being gaslit, dismissed, invalidated and bullied for speaking up at all. Hardly surprising but to have it so in my face was retraumatising in the extreme for me and I certainly do not recommend it. Especially as I had previously spoken with my siblings - who had vented extensively for years about our parents, as had enuPDf about uPDm - and they (with the exception of uPDGCbro) had said they would support me stepping into the breach - but were (surprise!) nowhere to be seen when it counted and, with the exception of my youngest sister, offered no support to me following this unpleasant scene.
That was when I tried writing the email. I explained that I was writing as a follow up because I had things I needed to say and I hadn't been listened to when I tried to speak with them.
In the email I was rational and detailed but pulled no punches about the decades-long pattern of dysfunction. My parents' response was to ignore it for weeks and then try to turn up with donuts at my house as if nothing had happened. They were told to leave and that's when the shit really hit the fan. I was vilified, and my uPDm acted as if it was a life-threatening tragedy that I hadn't just continued to take it up the butt for FOO. And my father did nothing. Because unless he's 'forced' by her to rage that's what he does: nothing - except incessantly complain about her but never actually to her. Neither took any accountability for their behaviours. And they never will.
I am now NC with them and three of my siblings. GC made no effort with me except to try and bully me into submission, which is his general MO. Two other siblings, who I'd formerly been close to, made no contact until months later when they suddenly decided they were missing me. Yeah, no. And youngest sis lives on the opposite side of the planet and is basically in the same situation as me with regard to our FOO.
Now, regarding the whole idea of them professing to not know what they've done wrong: I believe it is more the case that they simply do not ever think they actually are wrong, ergo they have no wrong-doing to admit to.
Regarding whether they actually know: well, my uPDm certainly knows when anyone else has ever done something wrong, so it's not as if she doesn't have her extreme morality radar ranging the terrain at all times, so there's that.
Regarding whether they 'forget' what they've done wrong, ah yes, the old selective amnesia. Given that uPDm has a mind like a steel trap and can remember exactly what everyone else has apparently done wrong going decades back, I don't think memory, per se, is the issue here. But selective memory, most definitely.
As to their weaponisation of letters/emails: mine definitely did this. It was head-shaking stuff. My uPDm's response was to eventually say that a friend of hers had noted the grammatical errors in it. Yep, that's it. A couple of typos here and there. Because that's what's important. Sigh. But did she address any of the actual issues? Nopeity, nope, nope. :stars: And I say weaponise, because myuPDm also knew that's exactly where she thought she could hurt me, because she knows that I do a lot of writing for a living and it's pretty important for me to be on point with my grammar and expression. My father weaponised my email by complaining that it was 'too long,' ie. it said stuff that he didn't want to read about and he just wanted to shut me down. No other comments, though. But then again, he's never wanted to hear me. So they both knew how to weaponise and trigger me there.
I write my 'too long' story mainly as a cautionary tale. I'm now fully NC and feeling far better than when I was in contact with FOO.
Like you, Blues Cruise and Just Kathy, the cumulative effects were just too much to sustain anymore and took a major toll on my health.
My mom does the same thing. "I wish someone would tell me what I've done wrong"! :dramaqueen:
Does she really want someone to list it out? Does she know what she's done to people? Do the comments people make to her about her behavior sink in? I truly don't know.
I personally would never list it out on paper. I went NC for a while and when she finally got ahold of me, she asked for an email listing all she had done wrong. Maybe it's some weird self-punishment thing.
There is NO WAY I'd do this because in a week or so I'd get a novel sized reply from her. She'd break down each and every point I made and turn it into someone else's fault. She's like a dog with a bone when tasked with replying to someone. She loves it and it sustains her for months. It's absolutely sick. I said "I'm not sending you an email, but I'll tell you why I stopped talking to you". She flipped all of it around to be the victim so there's no winning with them.
I still don't know if they know that they've done wrong. I know my mother is always RIGHT so I can't imagine she actually feels like she's done wrong.
:stars:
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on July 23, 2021, 08:49:58 AM
I know my mother is always RIGHT so I can't imagine she actually feels like she's done wrong.
:stars:
I'm sure that part of the reason my Nmother never felt she had done something wrong was because, in her mind,
I deserved it. She had a rotten kid that needed to be punished for her bad behavior, therefore her actions were justified.
My narc sister told me one time that she learned from my narc father, "This is what you say when you are caught, or when someone questions something awful she did, "I don't know what you are talking about."
I guess that pretty much sums it up. So cowardly and cheap, but hey, it works for them. :wacko:
QuoteI wouldn't even know where to begin if I were to write him a letter trying to explain my reasons for no contact. I don't think I'm qualified to offer up guidance on introspection to someone with no emotional intelligence whatsoever. I think even a trained professional with specialist expertise in his personality disorder would struggle.
There was no single thing that he did either, just a couple of straws that broke the camel's back (after decades of the camel dragging itself along the ground and begging for some kind of respite). It was a culmination of years of intense stress, anxiety and trauma from dealing with his ongoing behaviour. A letter could pretty much just be shortened to: "Your behaviour is/has always been consistently disrespectful and hurtful and I don't want to be subjected to it".
See that's just it - looks like several of us have been subjected to "put it in writing" and it rarely ends well. As you point out, there's no one thing, no final tipping point, no last hurrah so over the top that it can't be ignored. It went out with a whimper rather than a bang, and no one can stomach that. They want PROOF! of how awful it is and would no doubt counter everything you say with an excuse, justification or lay blame firmly at your feet. Anything you say can and will be help against you/me, and anything somehow left out doesn't count.
And as Doglady pointed out above:
Quote...My uPDm's response was to eventually say that a friend of hers had noted the grammatical errors in it. Yep, that's it. A couple of typos here and there. Because that's what's important....
Seriously - your mother shared that letter, you pouring your heart out about your relationship, with someone else???! I can absolutely see mine doing this with a "see this is the kind of thing I get from my daughter ..." never mind the history behind it or her many demands that I put it in writing. To what purpose other than her to pick it apart for "errors" while missing the whole picture. HERS is the only stuff that counts, is the message I've been sent as far back as I can remember.
My mother, like yours, is firmly of the belief that 1) as the mother she can do whatever she wants and I'm to lap it up and 2) there's always always justification for her mistreatment of anyone, never any explanation or apology, much less simple admission that she made a poor choice in her behavior and can do better.
Blues, if you decide to write anything, keep it simple and to the point. Details would likely be nitpicked and if he's like mother, about the time he disagreed with something [or you make one statement he can refute] he'd shut down and that's all he sees. You're wrong, he's right and that's all she wrote. You can always go back to JADE: Don't justify, argue, defend or explain. You don't have to, really, no matter what he might say.
My abusive narc parents didn't know what they did wrong, because they 'didn't do anything wrong'.
In fact, they still saw me as a child that must obey them, that they were entitled to punish, discipline and correct as well as order me around and demand where I live with my FOC. I was 50 years old and this was still their reality - They did no wrong, because as my parents, they were always right, and you better not correct them because God would strike you down.
So, I really believe they don't believe that they see it as they have done anything wrong, so naturally they'd say 'We don't know what we've done wrong."
And, I don't care if they ever know if they have done something wrong or not.
Because when I explained what they did wrong, well of course I am evil and unforgiving.
I just know I'll never ever let it badly affect my life again. They have had their last rodeo with their clown, and they'll have to find another to chew on.
Yep I use to get asked what was wrong, note not what had they done that was so wrong, no my parents have never once thought they have done anything wrong, they have made it crystal clear in their minds its all me. I find it amusing slightly, that they won't talk about it, no this is never done in discussion its only ever asked in writing via a letter or text.
Like others I 100% believe and in some cases have been proven right that this information given to them is shown to other people. It is simply to show how they are the victim, I can hear my mother now, I try so hard, I reach out and this is what I get in response, all these accusations which simply aren't true, blah blah blah.
I haven't for a long time replied to any of the "concern" texts asking what is wrong. I ignore them completely. It is simply a game that we play for too long.
Hello,
Another mysteriously upset child here!
My alcoholic father didn't understand anything. He had "children who didn't follow the rules." That's why they didn't live with him or want to see him much, all those awesome "rules"! He came from a long line of aging alcoholics who would answer a friendly call from their adult children with, "What, is your hand broken?"
My mother believes that I have been isolated by an emotionally abusive husband and a unethical therapist who has planted false memories in my brain and was so expertly manipulative that she managed to convince *her* therapist that I may have been abused. She comes from a long line of "abandoned mothers" who have been cut off by their "lost daughters."
My in-laws forget things only when their children express anger; when their children express sadness or plead, they remember but justify their behavior by complaining about their own horrible experience as children and how difficult it was for them during my husband's childhood. They use it to try to bond with their kids about how awful it all was.
You can totally write a letter, an email, a monograph, a graphic novel, a memoir! The act of writing is cathartic. To allow yourself to express your truth is empowering. To see it all in black and white is clarifying. And to go back and read it when the fog rolls in is supportive.
Whether or not you send it is up to you. Just stay clear in that they are who they are, and a little piece of paper is not going to make a whit of difference. They aren't going to "get it." They're not going to read it beyond "Dear ...," unless their preferred way of dealing with issues is to go on the attack, in which case they'll mount an argument worthy of a supreme court clerk.
But you don't have to send it. That's the beauty of it. The healing is in the writing for you. Save it, shred it, burn it, send it to sea in a bottle.
You didn't do anything wrong. Saying how you feel about what you experienced isn't wrong.
Why not try to write it and see what happens as you do?
I have loved this article, talking about the Missing Missing Reasons (http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html). The basic gist is this. This guy reads estranged parents forums and consistently finds them indicating that either they've been told a reason, or read it in a letter, but they write that off as abusive complaining and return to "I have no idea why!"
This is a pattern the author sees as pervasive in his review of estranged parents forums. It is of course not true that all intergenerational estrangements are justified, or caused by the parents.
Yep I had it a few weeks ago when I laid it all on the line to my Dad. In his head, he can't see what hes done wrong. Of course, this is followed up "woe is me I don't even know what I've done".
As with others he compartmentalises and sweeps things under the carpet. If its obvious hes done wrong it gets forgotten about.
His best one is with my wife. In his head he doesn't understand why she won't speak to him. Even when I point out EXACTLY how he;s treated her. (and that I agree with her!).
Hes got this idea in his head that she disrespects him by not phoning him on his birthday to wish him happy birthday. Why? I get on ok with my wifes mother and I dont do this. Its like he expects people to pay "homage" to him. BUT again his answer is "but I've not done anything". I gave up.... You have.
You know, I have no idea what uBPDm says or thinks really. She's blocked on all avenues, and although I speak with my grandmother, she doesn't talk about my uBPDm. Ever.
Probably some sort of whining about how she doesn't understand if I had to guess. Perhaps defaming my DH as well since he always had hard boundaries with her and never gave an inch. She never liked that and frequently complained that he wouldn't let her "joke" or "tease" in the way she enjoyed doing. It was not joking or teasing, and it was not funny to anyone but her.
Despite a message that, while very gentle was also to the point, she probably pretends to have no idea. Heck, with how BPD works, she may have deleted that message and then forgotten it ever existed. Who knows? Not me. Not sure I care really either... We could bludgeon them with the truth day after day and make no difference. It's the nature of the PD in general sadly.
My experience and observations of other people in this situation:
Adult child says, "You did x or said y."
"No I didn't! Or, if I did, that's no excuse for cutting off your mother! Or you're exaggerating or plain old made it up."
To someone else: "They never told me Why."
Whatever the adult child said or tried has been denied and rugswept and devalued into nonexistence. Just like so many other things in the adult child's life. The parent doesn't agree with it, so therefore the child's point of view doesn't exist. Which is exactly how they ended up being cut off without hope of reconciliation.
I've also read some of the estranged parents' boards, saw a number of posts where the parent go on and on about they just don't know what happened. several talked about face to face discussions, phone calls, emails, letters where their child[ren] went into some detail about "why" and it was still all pooh-poohed off that the parent didn't understand! My pea brain was thinking "what, none of y'all speak the same language?? It's right THERE, they SAID specifically what was said and how they felt and you somehow still claim to not know??" Few if any other posters point it out or quote it back to them, no challenge to reread it or break it down, no suggestions of changing things up so they could hopefully turn it around. Everybody just joined in on the "poor you, you're so mistreated and abused, guess we'll all eat worms" train.
Quote from: JustKathy on July 22, 2021, 06:44:00 PMThe other problem with writing a letter is that an N is likely to weaponize it and use it against you by showing it to others as proof that you're a mean and vindictive child. Sending a letter probably won't get through to your father at all, but might be used to cause you further pain. If you're NC you may not care, but if you still maintain relationships with other family members anything that can be shared could end up hurting you. You might feel better to write it all down with no intention of showing him. Share it here, or with your therapist, but not with him. :sadno:
Yeah, this has always been my gut reaction to it. My post was actually triggered by him coming round to my house uninvited last week and ringing the doorbell until my husband eventually answered, then laying it on thick to him about how he's a poor old man with health issues and just doesn't know what he's done wrong. I stayed out of the way during this and was so triggered at the time that I thought, "Right, I really should consider putting this in writing to him somehow so that he can no longer claim this" but I think this comes from a place of shame on my part because I
didn't explicitely give him reasons for no contact. I just dropped the rope and stopped engaging with him. I agree, I can't win either way. I sit with some feelings of shame for the estrangement but although it might feel like a weight off my shoulders to finally get my truth out there in a letter anything I say will most likely be scoffed at and shown to other people.
I'd also be playing into his hands I think. He's been in hospital recently and needs an operation and frankly I don't think it's a coincidence that since his hospital stay he's started amping up the contact attempts. Logistically I'm the closest adult child living near him, he won't be able to drive for a while after his operation and his wife doesn't drive, so yeah...after 4 years of him only bothering to send a birthday card with no genuine attempts at reconciliation in between and some passive-aggressive dumping of childhood things on my doorstep once a year thrown in, I don't think the increased, urgent desire for "answers" comes from a genuine place at all.
Quote from: moglow on July 23, 2021, 09:58:00 AM
Blues, if you decide to write anything, keep it simple and to the point. Details would likely be nitpicked and if he's like mother, about the time he disagreed with something [or you make one statement he can refute] he'd shut down and that's all he sees. You're wrong, he's right and that's all she wrote. You can always go back to JADE: Don't justify, argue, defend or explain. You don't have to, really, no matter what he might say.
I think if I ever did send anything it would very much be for me, not him. I would only do it with greater distance from him though, as I don't want to encourage unwanted visits to my home or any return correspondence. You're exactly right, he would read through anything I send in fight/defensive mode and not see the bigger picture. When it comes down to it, I just really don't like him, think he's horrible and want to protect myself from his manipulative and sadist behaviour. In a letter I think I could only generally allude to that as, "Your ongoing behaviour was causing me distress and I continue to need space from you." Even then he'll just feel attacked and it will be poking the bear, plus with no self awareness he'll throw it all back at me, play the victim and claim that my behaviour is causing
him distress. To avoid that I could try saying instead, "I continue to need space from you, if you need answers yourself then all I can suggest is self-reflection and perhaps speaking to a mental health professional to help you work through it" which would be quite funny but again, poking the bear. There's just no point, whichever way I look at it.
Quote from: Leonor on July 24, 2021, 05:42:35 AMBut you don't have to send it. That's the beauty of it. The healing is in the writing for you. Save it, shred it, burn it, send it to sea in a bottle.
You didn't do anything wrong. Saying how you feel about what you experienced isn't wrong.
Why not try to write it and see what happens as you do?
I tried writing an unsent letter once a couple of years ago and gave up two sentences in because I could just imagine being ridiculed and invalidated. But thank you, yes, I am going to try again and see how it goes. If I stall again maybe I'll write to my past self instead and validate her thoughts and feelings.
Blues, the unsent letter is for YOU, to get out whatever it is you need to say in whatever form it takes. I've written several here, others at home. I've actually gained some peace by writing it out then having a ceremonial burning. Something about that cleansing fire, watching it all go down to ash and up in smoke works for my brain and helps me let go of of the ugliness.
You'll get no judgment here - part of the process is learning to not judge ourselves. We're here with you.
Thank you so much Moglow, it's really reassuring to hear that. :) I LOVE the idea of a ceremonial burning as a way of letting go of what doesn't serve you, it sounds like it could be really healing.
DENIAL is the strongest tool in the PD armoury.
I once heard a psychiatrist mention that the brain of a narcissist does not work like ours. The blame is placed directly on others. This would be a form of defense mechanism for their fragile ego. Continually blaming others would make it very unlikely that a narcissist would ever change. Their brains are programmed so that nothing is ever their fault.
Thank you for posting this. I keep writing out long responses and deleting them. I think just writing it out was therapeutic for me.
My parents insist that they don't know what they've done. They wanted a list that I decided not to give. They decided my "final straw" insults from my mother were the whole reason I'm NC and they are are telling others how petty I am for going NC over what PDm sees as a helpful suggestion rather than decades of enforced enmeshment and requirements that I do everything her way or am punished or my kids are punished if I don't.
I think her ego is so fragile that she can't accept that she does anything wrong. She can't be told no or accept any boundary. Only full on enmeshment is ok or she cries, acts like a victim and punishes me. But because the punishment isn't physical, she thinks it's totally ok.
I did write the letter. Initially I considered sending it, so I put everything in it that I wanted to say. It was 10 typed pages long. I'll never send it. I know better now. It will be used to further punish, manipulate, and embarrass me. But I have that letter to refer back to when I'm headed back into the fog which is where I am today.
I believe that my N mother thinks she did nothing wrong since she (in her mind) had the right to do anything she wanted. I was an object there to serve. She gave birth to me so she felt entitled to abuse me. She still does not see what is wrong with them because in her mind there is nothing wrong with that. This is why I stopped explaining to her and never will since it makes no sense. To not even mention that she had never ever listen to a word I had to say.
Now that I talk openly about the abuse I endured, she spread lies that I am mentally sick to discredit me. Lucky for me this will be very hard for her to convince anyone of.
This shows me that she knows very well that what she did to me was so bad otherwise she would not be afraid of me exposing her.
She is a pathological lair so she will keep saying her versions of the story and keep trying to gaslight all the ones that were involved for the rest of her life. I am sure of that. Lucky I am out of it.
SeaSalt, I could have written that post. Right down to the smearing my mental health and making up complete and truly vicious lies about me to cover himself. On the one hand, they know very well, as evidenced by the deliberateness of the coverup and deflection of the fault onto us. On the other, dominant hand, they can never ever admit it.
I think not every narcissist is going to be that psychopathic though… the vast majority I think aren’t quite so simultaneously Machiavellian and malicious.
Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on August 02, 2021, 04:09:05 PM
SeaSalt, I could have written that post. Right down to the smearing my mental health and making up complete and truly vicious lies about me to cover himself. On the one hand, they know very well, as evidenced by the deliberateness of the coverup and deflection of the fault onto us. On the other, dominant hand, they can never ever admit it.
I think not every narcissist is going to be that psychopathic though... the vast majority I think aren't quite so simultaneously Machiavellian and malicious.
I agree Cordeila, there is a large palette of N spectrum and of course not all are extreme. It is very important to realize when there are extreme and in those cases really one should almost change its identity and disappear. My mother is one of these. I had to move very far away to feel safe and still I am watching my back.
regarding N knowing what they do once I read that we just need to listen to them what they blame us for and there is their confession. Those are the moment where they tell everything about them. My mother before my last NC wrote me that I stand by an abuser and that I support abuse which is exactly what she does by keeping her husbands pedophile side. If I had any doubt before, I would not have after that confession she did. She also wrote me that her husbands only mistake was that he loved me too much. Oh boy I do believe that one. We are still all paying consequences on him "loving me too much". Etc. Its better to not give it too much attention and energy because its mind twisting. I find that finding ways to not think of her is the sweetest victory. How I stopped thinking of her? I made a little mind trick: every time my mind wanted to think about her I was thinking of a friend of mine, lets say, Maria. Each time NM came to my mind, I would call Maria, think of Maria, wonder what Maria is doing so that after few months my mind was automatically starting to think of Maria when I was about to think of Nm. Now I can go 2-3 weeks without thinking of my NM. Absolutely fantastic.
Quote from: Hazy111 on July 29, 2021, 06:44:17 AM
DENIAL is the strongest tool in the PD armoury.
Isn't that the truth. Even when something has been done that I have found out about and I have been upset about it, the denial is flabbergasting. There was never any apology for outright lying about me or giving away gifts from others that were meant for me or a direct insult, nope no apology or acknowledgement on their end that their behaviour was unjustified. There was just denial, that I misunderstood and then blaming where it was turned on me and I was sensitive and depressed. Its exhausting to deal with. They cannot and will not admit that their behaviour is wrong on any level. I am happy to give up on them, its simply too hard to deal with.
He KNOWS what he's done wrong BUT..here it gets complicated. He doesn't see that your perception of wrong is an objective perception.
There is a very insightful site (issendai.com) where estranged parents come to seek support after their kids go no contact with them.
From all those discussions I've read, it is obvious that, THEY KNOW they have behaved badly BUT, their minds justify this bad behavior to the point where it becomes 'normal', 'acceptable', 'desirable' UNDER certain circumstances.
What's worse about these people is that they compare their abuses (emotional, verbal) to worst types of abuses -physical, sexual, etc. One parent there said it's not like I have beaten her every day and left her without food for days. Or, I gave her food and clothes and took care of her as a child, I was a good parent so I can't understand why she cut me off.
In the mind of a PD, abuse means beating your child for days in a row, leaving a child without food, making a child homeless, killing a child.
Sooo, if they equate abuse to unlawful behavior, it means, in their mind, what they've done to us (narcissistic, borderline abuse) is NOT abuse, it's more like 'doing the best you could' or 'making small mistakes'.
They also have amnesia. If a parent hits the child one day, they forget they hit them the next day OR, they make the abuse in their head as a deserved punishment for disobeying the parent. (PD parents go mental when they're disobeyed, especially by little children).
So, ALL they do is justified. The child deserved it so it must not be abuse then. Real abuse is what you hear on the news/movies and NOT what they do.
I really believe that PD parents, especially narcissists on the malignant side understand an evil or an abusive act BUT they justify as it HAD to happen and it's OK that they've done it.
Pls, don't try to explain to your father again what he's done wrong. It's like talking to a wall. I found that telling what 'they''ve done to a support group or a good friend brings more comfort.
Quote from: MarlenaEve on August 03, 2021, 03:47:15 AM
He KNOWS what he's done wrong BUT..here it gets complicated. He doesn't see that your perception of wrong is an objective perception.
There is a very insightful site (issendai.com) where estranged parents come to seek support after their kids go no contact with them.
From all those discussions I've read, it is obvious that, THEY KNOW they have behaved badly BUT, their minds justify this bad behavior to the point where it becomes 'normal', 'acceptable', 'desirable' UNDER certain circumstances.
What's worse about these people is that they compare their abuses (emotional, verbal) to worst types of abuses -physical, sexual, etc. One parent there said it's not like I have beaten her every day and left her without food for days. Or, I gave her food and clothes and took care of her as a child, I was a good parent so I can't understand why she cut me off.
In the mind of a PD, abuse means beating your child for days in a row, leaving a child without food, making a child homeless, killing a child.
Sooo, if they equate abuse to unlawful behavior, it means, in their mind, what they've done to us (narcissistic, borderline abuse) is NOT abuse, it's more like 'doing the best you could' or 'making small mistakes'.
They also have amnesia. If a parent hits the child one day, they forget they hit them the next day OR, they make the abuse in their head as a deserved punishment for disobeying the parent. (PD parents go mental when they're disobeyed, especially by little children).
So, ALL they do is justified. The child deserved it so it must not be abuse then. Real abuse is what you hear on the news/movies and NOT what they do.
I really believe that PD parents, especially narcissists on the malignant side understand an evil or an abusive act BUT they justify as it HAD to happen and it's OK that they've done it.
Pls, don't try to explain to your father again what he's done wrong. It's like talking to a wall. I found that telling what 'they''ve done to a support group or a good friend brings more comfort.
What you wrote Marlena I agree 100%. When I confronted my N mother about her husband sexually harassing me through my childhood, her answer was: common but he did not rape you. So in her mind, if he did not rape me, than everything else is ok and acceptable and I am making a big deal out of nothing. I saw immediately that no words could ever explain to her. I could explain all the consequences I had, how this affected me etc. and it would never mean abuse for her.
The same with her N abuse and neglect. For her if there was always food in the house, means there was never any abuse. In my mothers mind food and physical shelter are the only child's needs. So in her mind she did her job amazingly. She also payed my university for a few years so she is a mother of the Century.
I've heard that I should be thankful that my parents aren't physically abusive alcoholics. My grandfathers both were. So because my parents weren't and because my mother was enmeshed to the point that she didn't want me to go anywhere without her or live on my own until I was almost 30, this was proof that she loved me. I should be appreciative of her "help" (constant criticism, insults, and expectation that I do everything and only have the exact same likes and opinions that she does). Anything less was mean to her,
Quote from: Sidney37 on August 03, 2021, 11:05:58 AM
I've heard that I should be thankful that my parents aren't physically abusive alcoholics. My grandfathers both were. So because my parents weren't and because my mother was enmeshed to the point that she didn't want me to go anywhere without her or live on my own until I was almost 30, this was proof that she loved me. I should be appreciative of her "help" (constant criticism, insults, and expectation that I do everything and only have the exact same likes and opinions that she does). Anything less was mean to her,
That is a sadly common thing to hear. It is not how moral standards work.
Do you all think that this is about power? I mean, the disordered parent seems to think they get an automatic pass on anything they do, because we live in a culture that has the words "honour thy father and thy mother" weaved into our lives. I think there are some (toxic) parents out there who believe this idea puts them in the powerful position of thinking they can do whatever they want, terrible as it may be, and children still must honour them. I am speaking from being raised in Christian family but I know the honour of parents can be found in many cultures and religions.
Sometimes I wish so badly that there was another commandment that said something about honouring your child and raising your child with love.
In my family it seems as if my uNPDf thinks as well that if something happened behind closed doors it didn't actually happen. It would have to be witnessed by a non-family member. He feels free of accountability because what isn't seen by a non-family member can easily be explained away and manipulated. Saying they don't know what they did wrong is the ultimate form of gaslighting. They know what they did. They just refuse to be accountable and worst of all, many toxic parents absolutely refuse to apologize. That is a big issue for me. I feel that I could easily apologize to my teen, and I have, and know when I am in the wrong.
If I tried to tell my uNPDf he'd tell me I was overly sensitive and blew things out of proportion, or twisted what he said. It's just a no win and it's sad.
Well, Hepatica, there kinda is a command for that.
Ephesians 6:4 "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
I read that one off to my uBPDm once when she was on a monologue and it didn't go too well. :stars: I'm afraid it's a combination of refusing to accept responsibility for their actions, and the trauma of abusing us (ironic isn't it?) triggers the off switch on their memories in some cases. Not all. Just some. Mine will never apologize, not really. I would get those blanket fauxpologies "I'm sorry if I ever hurt you..." that mean nothing. Kinda worse than no apology at all honestly.
I think this is some kind of gaslighting. 1-This lays out the foundation for the idea that what happened was not such a big deal and you are being too sensitive, 2- It invites you to be vulnerable with them so that they can invalidate your feelings and tell you what a sensitive person you are.
In my personal situation and experience, I believe it has to do with an amplified denial of the 'truth' that they cannot accept as a replacement for the 'truth' that they refuse to let go of.
It's true when we are children, we completely rely on our parents and they have authority over us. How well the executed that authority over us may be another story.
But when an opposing truth comes, that replaces the truth they have known all of our lives as minors, they cannot accept it.
An apposing truth: my child no longer answers to me, is not under my control, that I cannot discipline, that doesn't have to do as I say or else... that is not a reality that they can accept. It's not 'true' to them.
I know others that have experienced the same thing, and have even been told "it's just a phase you're going through, you've always had those issues".
Just a phase like a 14 yr old rebellious teenager. That is what they are sure of.
When you exercise your right as a grown adult, they simply cannot accept and comprehend what you are doing, and see it as a childlike rebellion against their 'honor your mom and dad' comment made earlier.
When my parents told me to move out of the city, and that I must change my name, they actually expected me to obey them.
When I had my lawyer send them a cease and desist order, they opened it and wrote back saying they expected it was certification of my name change and was mad that it wasn't.
Adding to that, stating that I was the shame to all generations of both family names, and I was a disgrace.
Do you think I care if that worm dies today and falls in a ditch? Just one less person in the world that believes that I am evil.
So in my particular case, my narcs absolutely believe they have done nothing wrong.
My 'truth' does not fit their narrative.
So, they'll never see me again.
They WROTE BACK to your lawyer's cease and desist order? :o Just when you think you've seen it all on here...
Yeah it was amazing! And they couldn't quit, they wrote her again what liar I am, and had my brother chime in and write her also saying he never harassed me.
Again, this was after she sent all three of them individual c&d letters. Amazing.
She forwarded me their emails a few times before I guess they finally satisfied themselves, which is good because I think she was about to send her own cease and desist to them as well.. 😅
Please forgive me if I say something someone else has said - I didn't get to read everyone's replies.
I have thought about this issue a lot myself. I've come to the conclusion that maybe my own NPD parents 'don't understand what they done wrong.' But that is part of the problem! And it's not my responsibility to explain again or really at all. In going NC, I am not playing some middle school mean girl mind game. Personally I've gone NC because I know 'contact' is pointless because it's like speaking in two different language. A relationship or conversation in the most basic sense is not possible.
When my NPD parents have said they don't even know what they've done wrong, I think: yes, that's probably true. But it is extremely revealing.
A somewhat normal adult, even some total jerks, usually know when they have done something wrong and what it was. They might not admit it or like it, but they know. They know when they have crossed a line: used inappropriate language, violated basic boundaries, were manipulative or cruel. Most people know. They might not apologise but they know.
The fact that many PD/nPD claim that they don't know is just further evidence that they have a PD and that NC is often necessary. People with PDs do not have a normal or healthy gauge of human behaviour. They could scream at you in public and not think twice about acting like it was totally normal. My NPD once started a shouting match with my sister in a sky car with a dozen strangers watching. She could care less that she was ruining their vacation activity or ours. It never occurred to her that she owed everyone an apology. She didn't think her behaviour was off.
So if someone says they don't know what they did wrong I just see it as baiting me for conversation and nothing more, certainly not an indication that they care about the possibility of having done something wrong. Usually if someone cares they can pick out what they have done on their own.
:yeahthat:
Totally! It hadn't occurred to me that the pleading, "I wish I knew ..." nonsense was a bait to get dragged into yet another drama-filled convo for them to feed off of. Makes total sense. Thanks for the clarity moment I just had!
Quote from: TwentyTwenty on August 04, 2021, 07:24:59 PM
In my personal situation and experience, I believe it has to do with an amplified denial of the 'truth' that they cannot accept as a replacement for the 'truth' that they refuse to let go of.
It's true when we are children, we completely rely on our parents and they have authority over us. How well the executed that authority over us may be another story.
But when an opposing truth comes, that replaces the truth they have known all of our lives as minors, they cannot accept it.
An apposing truth: my child no longer answers to me, is not under my control, that I cannot discipline, that doesn't have to do as I say or else... that is not a reality that they can accept. It's not 'true' to them.
I know others that have experienced the same thing, and have even been told "it's just a phase you're going through, you've always had those issues".
Just a phase like a 14 yr old rebellious teenager. That is what they are sure of.
When you exercise your right as a grown adult, they simply cannot accept and comprehend what you are doing, and see it as a childlike rebellion against their 'honor your mom and dad' comment made earlier.
When my parents told me to move out of the city, and that I must change my name, they actually expected me to obey them.
When I had my lawyer send them a cease and desist order, they opened it and wrote back saying they expected it was certification of my name change and was mad that it wasn't.
Adding to that, stating that I was the shame to all generations of both family names, and I was a disgrace.
Do you think I care if that worm dies today and falls in a ditch? Just one less person in the world that believes that I am evil.
So in my particular case, my narcs absolutely believe they have done nothing wrong.
My 'truth' does not fit their narrative.
So, they'll never see me again.
If you don't mind me asking why did they want you to move? To be nearer them?
And the name change?
My wife double-barrelled her name when we got married. I just thought "so what up to her". My Dad basically tried to tell me it was disrespecting him. Eh?
I also had another one of his famous (and worrying) chats where he told me I needed to "sort my wife out and remind her whos boss". Scary eh?
Quote from: p123 on August 17, 2021, 08:58:43 AM
My wife double-barrelled her name when we got married. I just thought "so what up to her". My Dad basically tried to tell me it was disrespecting him. Eh?
I also had another one of his famous (and worrying) chats where he told me I needed to "sort my wife out and remind her whos boss". Scary eh?
:aaauuugh: He got stuck in the 50's
I am married for the second time. The first, I took my ex h name because that's how it was forty years ago plus I have a name that I need to always spell, not English. Younger I was embaressed about it and today people tell me that it's quite original and like it. Anyhow, the second time I just kept my maiden name finally accepting it, meaning I am accepting and liking myself, period. Why not. My dh does not feel disrespected at all.
@P123, yes that is scary indeed.
They wanted me to change my name because they said I was a shame to the entire lineage of our last name, and didn't deserve to be called by that.
They wanted me to move away; they didn't want to even have the slight chance that we may cross paths. So I should move away to make sure they didn't have to endure even a single second of me if we both happen to be out and about.
Quote from: blacksheep7 on August 17, 2021, 10:32:47 AM
Quote from: p123 on August 17, 2021, 08:58:43 AM
My wife double-barrelled her name when we got married. I just thought "so what up to her". My Dad basically tried to tell me it was disrespecting him. Eh?
I also had another one of his famous (and worrying) chats where he told me I needed to "sort my wife out and remind her whos boss". Scary eh?
:aaauuugh: He got stuck in the 50's
I am married for the second time. The first, I took my ex h name because that's how it was forty years ago plus I have a name that I need to always spell, not English. Younger I was embaressed about it and today people tell me that it's quite original and like it. Anyhow, the second time I just kept my maiden name finally accepting it, meaning I am accepting and liking myself, period. Why not. My dh does not feel disrespected at all.
Not wrong there! Hes firmly of the opinion that the man is the boss....
As you can imagine, my wife won't even speak to him.......
Exactly, I don't care what name my wife wants to use. So what? All I do is rib her a bit about trying to be posh!
Quote from: TwentyTwenty on August 18, 2021, 06:14:54 PM
@P123, yes that is scary indeed.
They wanted me to change my name because they said I was a shame to the entire lineage of our last name, and didn't deserve to be called by that.
They wanted me to move away; they didn't want to even have the slight chance that we may cross paths. So I should move away to make sure they didn't have to endure even a single second of me if we both happen to be out and about.
OMG thats just awful.....
One of the gifts of going NC, is not having to know what they "claim" to know or not know. When I finally went NC, I cut off all avenues of communication (hence the term NC) and therefore, am not subjected to what my uNPDM has to say about it. I have heard from a few sources that I have been labeled "mentally ill" and that I am "going to hell for the way (I have) abandoned (her)." I guess these claims only act as reminders as to why I was driven to going NC in the first place. NPD individuals do not have the capacity to internally process negative aspects of their lives or selves, so all blame must be assigned to others or the world does not make sense. I understand this but also, I am grateful I'm no longer caught in the gravitational force of it.
Quote from: My New Life on August 25, 2021, 12:57:02 PM
One of the gifts of going NC, is not having to know what they "claim" to know or not know. When I finally went NC, I cut off all avenues of communication (hence the term NC) and therefore, am not subjected to what my uNPDM has to say about it. I have heard from a few sources that I have been labeled "mentally ill" and that I am "going to hell for the way (I have) abandoned (her)." I guess these claims only act as reminders as to why I was driven to going NC in the first place. NPD individuals do not have the capacity to internally process negative aspects of their lives or selves, so all blame must be assigned to others or the world does not make sense. I understand this but also, I am grateful I'm no longer caught in the gravitational force of it.
Ah yes, I got labelled "mentally ill" too! To be honest I was/am mentally ill, but not for the reasons my father would claim. Without him in my life I've actually given myself a shot at working to emotionally re-regulate and address my deeply rooted toxic shame and social phobia. Couldn't do that when every phone call left me paralysed with anxiety and I was getting treated like crap, thus reinforcing the shame (and anger at myself for putting up with it). It's important to surround yourself with emotionally healthy, kind people in order to heal and he's certainly not one of them. It's only recently I've really grasped just how unwell and struggling I was for all those years and how his own unaddressed trauma and unhealthy coping mechanisms are at the root of it.
I think you're exactly right, the claims you described do indicate why no contact was necessary. Emotionally immature parents just won't do the trauma work needed to improve their lives and when you realise how much of an impact their unhealthy coping mechanisms have had/continue to have on your own wellbeing it's very difficult to continue to tolerate it without a lot of emotional distress. I acknowledge that my father's actions are a result of his own trauma and I do feel sympathy towards him for how it's dominated his life and caused misery (definitely for those around him, but also for himself), however he has as much responsibility in the present day to check his own behaviour as much as anyone else does. I'm pretty sure at his core he knows this but can't bear to face his shame and projects his poor behaviour on to others. I'll never understand how intentionally hurting others makes anyone feel better though, it's bizarre.
They truly believe they've done nothing wrong. Have you read the posts on the isendai blog? It explains how the mind of a PD parent works.
It's unbelievable to read there.
PD people's brains are so damaged that they constantly need to justify even their most awful and hurtful behaviors. One of the parents on the site looks at abuse this way: 'I didn't tie her up every day, beat her and left her with no clothes and to starve, so she had a nice childhood. I don't see what's the problem.'
This thinking shows us how abusers think of abuse. They look at abuse as physical torture and extreme violence-that news you hear on TV where they talk about some psychopathic parent starving their children or torturing them physically. That's how they see abuse.
It is mind-bending. Yelling at someone, putting someone down, destroying their self-esteem, even small beatings are considered OK for them. Good lord.
So, it makes sense for them to wonder what they've done wrong. They didn't tie us up for days or starved us to death, so they're great, loving parents.
Here's the site:
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/
Marlena Eve, how apposite, just had a conversation with a neighbor, whom i now try to steer clear of now his mask has slipped re his PD and bizarre beliefs.
I mentioned the sexual abuse scandal thats erupted in France regarding the Catholic Church (and i knew what was coming from previous conversations) . He replied "Well theres abuse and theres abuse. Its a big spectrum. Theres a big difference between fondling a kid and buggery" (He seems to have unhealthy obsession with sodomy) .
I replied "Well maybe the victim doesnt see it that way" . He just glared at me
Quote from: MarlenaEve on October 05, 2021, 01:32:07 PM
They truly believe they've done nothing wrong. Have you read the posts on the isendai blog? It explains how the mind of a PD parent works.
It's unbelievable to read there.
Folks will tell the precise reason they've been given, or will admit to hair-raising behavior, and then say "I never did learn what it was I did that was supposed to be so wrong."
Quote from: MarlenaEve on October 05, 2021, 01:32:07 PM
One of the parents on the site looks at abuse this way: 'I didn't tie her up every day, beat her and left her with no clothes and to starve, so she had a nice childhood. I don't see what's the problem.'
This thinking shows us how abusers think of abuse. They look at abuse as physical torture and extreme violence-that news you hear on TV where they talk about some psychopathic parent starving their children or torturing them physically. That's how they see abuse./
That is exactly how my mother thinks. She would cry and get upset about cases of child abuse in the newspapers while ignoring the way that I was treated. Including supporting and talking fondly about my ex husband (on whom she had a crush) who beat me and manipulated me into having sex with him when I was 17 and he was twice my age. He would collect me late at night and drop me home in the morning, but that was OK because he had money and my mother had set us up.
Quote from: Lillith65 on October 20, 2021, 09:26:55 AM
Quote from: MarlenaEve on October 05, 2021, 01:32:07 PM
One of the parents on the site looks at abuse this way: 'I didn't tie her up every day, beat her and left her with no clothes and to starve, so she had a nice childhood. I don't see what's the problem.'
This thinking shows us how abusers think of abuse. They look at abuse as physical torture and extreme violence-that news you hear on TV where they talk about some psychopathic parent starving their children or torturing them physically. That's how they see abuse./
That is exactly how my mother thinks. She would cry and get upset about cases of child abuse in the newspapers while ignoring the way that I was treated. Including supporting and talking fondly about my ex husband (on whom she had a crush) who beat me and manipulated me into having sex with him when I was 17 and he was twice my age. He would collect me late at night and drop me home in the morning, but that was OK because he had money and my mother had set us up.
Aw wow thats just so awful. So sorry you had to go through that
Don't be fooled. If they ever displayed control over when and where to abuse, they know. Abusive dad was Mr Equanimity in public but a nasty bully behind closed doors. He played the confused, innocent victim when I went NC. No, no, no, I'm traumatised but I"m not stupid, if he was that oblivious that his behaviour was abusive he'd have been like that in the corner shop, at the queue in the post office not just when we were alone.
:yeahthat:
It's part of why people outside the core family think you're exaggerating or even lying about the bad times - they've never seen behaviors like that from the person they think they know well.
I wonder how it might change things if PD parents knew that their children are going to remember these incidents & will revisit them through adult eyes.
Quote
I wonder how it might change things if PD parents knew that their children are going to remember these incidents & will revisit them through adult eyes.
I think you're doing what we all did and do, you're projecting your healthy patterns of logic onto a disordered mind. From what I've read there isn't a linear thread in the mind of a malignant narcissist (mn). Everything is now, no history or future which is why their behaviour seems so short sighted. They'll just do and say what makes them superior and you inferior in the moment.
My undx MN dad was abusive to me up until nc. The abuse changed but only because despite my horrific childhood I had managed to grow and mature and he had to be more subtle. I can see many instances where he tested boundaries as I grew to see what he could get me to tolerate and explain away. He couldn't behave the same as he did when I was a child (trash my room/throw me out) because I had people in my life who adored me and being an adult people were more likely to believe me. It must have been immensely frustrating for him. Diddums 😂😂
QuoteEverything is now, no history or future which is why their behaviour seems so short sighted.
I think you're right traumakorma. Which is why I have to accept that my ubpdm's current run of good behavior is likely to end with a bang, probably one aimed straight at me, since she's currently holding it together in the face of an enormous (the serious illness of my brother).
I had to look up "Diddums" - got a new word to use now!