Out of the FOG

My H has undiagnosed Avoidant Personality Disorder.

We live fairly separate lives; spending time in different rooms, usually eat our own food in different places, very little conversation. There are times we do things together and it is usually polite and seems "normal." When I realized he was uAVPD, I stopped putting so much energy into the relationship and that separateness increased significantly.

I am trying to decide if I should let him know that I want us to have separate bedrooms. We share a room and a bed, but there is no sex (my choice) and no touching (his subconscious choice). As a person who has deep relationships, there are times when his avoidance is highly distressing to me. Also when I am in a difficult place, I don't want to be around him. At home, I want to be able to be myself and not have to wear a happy mask.

To him, everything is great. (I'm guessing because he doesn't tell me what is going on with him.) My therapist says that he's in his happy place; no one expecting much conversation or closeness with him. If I do decide on separate bedrooms, it will disrupt our present calm. I also will need to explain to our adult kids why we are in separate rooms, in a way that is truthful and still respecting that he is their dad.

There have been times when I had decided on separate rooms, but the timing wasn't right. (eg., adult child hadn't moved our yet, so there wasn't another bedroom.) Now I'm somewhat on the fence.

Thoughts and advice are welcome.

Can you expand on how it will disrupt your present calm?

Explaining it to the children, I see no need to get further than "just like having extra space" maybe say you both can go to sleep or read or whatever without disturbing each other. No big deal.

I know you're aware of this but saying it anyway because sometimes we can know a thing perfectly well but still be a little surprised. This will move you both a little further apart. I know you are already apart and I don't say it to dissuade you but to prepare you.

uNPDh and I have had separate bedrooms for 3 years now. It was originally his idea (stated a few times when he was angry, then taken back). I finally insisted, in part, to stop H's controlling tactics of sleep deprivation paired with sexual coercion. But we also agreed to separate rooms because H and I both snore, and we both take turns with insomnia. Plus, since last year's lockdown, I work nights from home in my room now. Even if H and I shared a healthy, non-abusive, non-PD relationship, we have some perfectly understandable reasons for sleeping separately.

There are articles and studies available online that show separate rooms can actually benefit marriage or live-in relationships, so the decision to sleep apart is not necessarily a negative option.

Youngest DS19 is the only kid still at home, and he is honestly surprised his father and I are still in the same house. Occasional houseguests who notice the separate rooms are simply told "We snore."

My sleep has improved, and H and I actually seem to get along *better* now that we each have some privacy. Just getting that sleep, and some reprieve, has helped lift my FOG even more. Of course, some of H's stuff, and mutual items like important documents or the first aid kit, are still in my closet or my bathroom, and H uses this to occasionally invade my space unannounced. He also teases/grumbles when I "sleep in" to such ungodly hours as 9am ?! (Um, I work nights...). But overall it has been a helpful arrangement.

Late uPD husband and myself had separate bedrooms. It was a real blessing and help.  I don't think we could have remained together sharing a bedroom.  He liked to be up awake all night then sleep until about lunchtime.

The separate rooms brought more calmness to our home.   

I never felt I needed to explain to anyone why we had separate rooms.  I think it was for about five years.   

We have seperate bedrooms too, but that came about for different reasons - it was before PD issues were a major factor in our relationship. H has always struggled with sleep and his odd bedtimes plus snoring was a problem for me as I am unfortunately a light sleeper.

DD was too small to have any opinion on this, and our respective parents accepted our brief explanation with no fuss. H was ok with it because he also enjoyed having his own space.

Most days I literally don't see him at all - sleeps all day and then showers and heads to work. I'd be in my room so our paths would not cross during his brief time getting ready. I'm in bed when he gets home. It's lonely but it's lonely anyway. I like being lonely better than running the risk of being in his crosshairs.

For you, it might feel less lonely than sharing a room. But for me, I think it's lonely either way. The thing that seems so much less lonely would be having my own home. Two can be the loneliest number.

Dh and I have separate bedrooms as well for probably 10 years. He snores and does the loud stop/start breathing thing with a loud snort, not to mention jerking his legs, moving around etc. I wasn't getting good sleep so having separate bedrooms is fantastic.

Our children knew how loud he snores from all of us being in hotel rooms on vacation. When they were little, they'd cry in hotel rooms and ask me to make him stop snoring. So they didn't think anything about it when we started sleeping separately.

My stbx uNPDh (also very avoidant) moved out of our bedroom several years ago. He was punishing me for stating and holding a boundary. At first, it really hurt my feelings. But it ended up being a good thing.  I slept better. I was calmer. I had a place to retreat from the silence.
I had to explain to older teen kids why dad moved out. It was hard! But I'm thinking if your kids are adults, they don't need an explanation. Maybe just "This works out better for us"
One thing that I experienced was stbxh someone saw his moving out as me rejecting him. There was subtle, manipulative retaliation. I don't know if your H will do that. But something to think about. 

I am so grateful for everyone's comments, questions, and input. It was really helpful.

I told uAVPD H today that I want separate bedrooms. There was a lot said. I feel relieved that I finally said it. I feel shaken by the conversation that we had. That's all I can write for now.

My uNPDw moved out 2 years ago, best thing ever for me. No more tv in the middle of the night, no more surfing on her phone and no more kicking me in my back every time I make a noise. When I told her I want a divorce, her response was she was going to move back in the bedroom. No way I told her and she has stayed away from my bedroom since.

I think a high percentage of couples eventually sleep in separate rooms.  Many of these folks are still sexually active and with each other even.

Snoring, CPAP machines, restless legs and more can account for it in many cases.  I would not feel children need an explanation.  Or you could say something silly like ever since we started having wild sex on the roof again like we did when you were little, we find we need better sleep. 

Worthy of Care,

Many nights, i sleep elsewhere. I happen to be a fan of the couch, as the high back provides a support for me and its located in a room that is farthest away from my uPDw's nighttime activity.  Like Escapingman, my wife stays up very late with the TV on, most nights until 2am, sometimes 3am.  There are some nights i will be woken after 1am by the buzzer of the laundry washer or dryer finishing its cycle.  Other nights it may be the steady thump on the ceiling of her running on a treadmill at 1am.  My solution has been a portable and loud white-noise machine by my head and in difficult cases, my Bose 35 noise cancelling over-ear headphones (great for car-ride silent treatments also ;) ).  Problem solved. 

My uPDw has a long history of attempted sleep deprivation of me as a source of manipulation. Those ways include creating noise but also waking me around 1-2am to try and bait me into an argument over some issue shes been boiling in her mental pressure cooker.  Those attempts have mostly ended as a result of her repeatedly experiencing a boundary I now have on myself regarding those argument attempts, which includes getting up from the room/couch im sleeping on at the time of the confrontation and moving to another separate location in the home for the remainder of the evening, as well as an invitation for her to be heard over coffee in the early daylight hours, when I'm physically rested and mentally awake.  She has yet to take me up on that early morning meeting offer lol. 

Like many have stated, i believe sleeping in the same bedroom is a taboo in married culture and imo kids need to learn that proper sleep is so very important to an individual, so they can be the best parent, spouse, employee, employer, friend and so on.  Sacrificing sleep or nutrition or any part of mental or physical health for a marriage-bed taboo is imo a bad decision and unbalanced teaching of children, who end up feeling guilty about their need in later years when married.  In our cases here at Out of the FOG, with PD's, separate bedrooms is a proper boundary of protection for many. 

I applaud your bold and brave decision to communicate a separate bedroom boundary for yourself and sorry the reaction was was one that has shaken you.  Wishing you mental fortitude in your follow-through. 

SoT

Quote from: Worthy of Care on December 19, 2021, 02:24:34 PM
I am so grateful for everyone's comments, questions, and input. It was really helpful.

I told uAVPD H today that I want separate bedrooms. There was a lot said. I feel relieved that I finally said it. I feel shaken by the conversation that we had. That's all I can write for now.

let us know how the next bit unfolds worthy!

H slept on the couch last night, I think because he was so upset, not because I want separate bedrooms.

This morning I was awake, but still in bed. He came in and asked, "What was the reason for separate bedrooms?" (What????  :stars:) I repeated my reasons. More conversation. When we were talking about lack of intimacy, one of the things that I said was, "In my experience, you share facts. I've rarely seen you show/share your feelings." My H said, "I'm not the kind of person who show his feelings---------as much as you need." He completely put that on me.  :no:

Yesterday when we talked, he said he needed time to pray about it. I asked him how much time. He has a history of thinking about things for days, weeks, or months. He said one month. I told him that one month was not needed. He said one week then.

My pdH was flat out being a jerk and sleep depriving me.  He was also at times waking the kids with his noise.

He would get up and down and plop back into bed roughly always managed to jerk in my pillow when adjusting his own and would steal more than his share if covers.

He would in addition the nthis make loud fake sighs and on top of that he snored terribly when he went back to sleep.  Add to that night mares and restless legs and sleep apnea with all the intermittent snore pausing and snorting sounds.

I started going to bed with him then moving to the couch once he fell asleep.  He falls asleep so very easily that sometimes I would wake him because he was snoring and he would say how could I have been snoring I wasn't even asleeeee.....snock snnnnerrrrk .

For this reason I knew alot of the fumbling around and plopping and loud fake yawns and sighs were total BS.  Also I had been sleeping in the same room with him over 20years and sort of knew the real deal.

A factor in totally moving to a new room was his deny sex.  He just did not want to be bothered for the most part and was using porn also.  He even told me to outsource.  I decided he had made that bed and he could sleep in it alone.

When I moved into a basement room I over time turned into much like a studio apt. he would walk up an down the steps a dozen or more times a night to interrupt my zen with his headline news etc.

I made a boundary he was not going to hang out in my space when he ignored me upstairs.
I would meet him at the kitchen counter in the basement kitchenette.  This drove him crazy.

I eventually started asking if he needed to tell me anything before I went downstairs and over time that worked well.

Now we are in opposite locations since he came home from the mental hospitals he lives in the space I used to and I am upstairs.

When I took my own room I did so by simply rearranging furniture and things we already had.  It was cheap, and eclectic but peaceful.  I could read it watch tv or a video of my own choosing. It was amazing.  I could pet the cat or dog for a few mins without him calling them or interfering. 

I chose to stay here until my kids are grown and up out.  He is the one who killed our intimacy so I have no guilt sleeping in another room regarding that issue.

Not laying there pretending is healing.  Not having to put up with the bodily presence of someone who rejects me is healthy for me. 

I am confident he thinks he looks atls good as the youngster he places in his fantasies.  In the mean time I avoid certain places because men 20-30 years younger who work there have propositioned me. 

Despite the logic if this all there is some internal stigma against sleeping alone when married.  Maybe it's tie dissonance if calling myself married when I live as a single mom with a kid who will never grow up. 


It's a hard thing to bring about but the separate rooms could become a new norm. 

     I admire you for your courage to ask for separate bedrooms. I wish we lived in a world where people wouldn't automatically suspect something was wrong just because a married couple slept in separate rooms.
      I still share a bedroom with my PDh but I'd sleep better on my own because he snores loudly at times.  Once a few years ago, he got upset with me and slept in his office for a couple of months, and I slept so much better.  It felt awkward to me emotionally though because our children were still at home and had sleepovers with their friends, so they'd notice. I won't ask my husband to sleep in his office because of the potential fallout but I certainly won't object if he does.

I'm in my early sixties.  Most of my friends have disclosed "separate bedrm" as fact of life, due to snoring/sleep issues of our spouses. At a certain age, sleep becomes paramount, because quality sustained sleep has often become elusive.  Whether formalized separate bedrms, or normalized nightly wandering about looking for alternate sleep accommodations, no one seems to consistently spend nights laying in same bed with snoring husband anymore.

When I did tech work in people's homes I worked primarily for elderly.  One couple slept on separate floors of the house, I replaced phone jacks and installed a network there.   .  There was Viagra and lube on the night stand up and downstairs.  They were in their 80's.  Rick on!

Do what works for you and don't worry about what others think.  It's nobodies business and needs no explanation.

We have had separate bedrooms for more than 5 years and although it was sad initially, I am so glad to have my own room! We have different sleep patterns and needs, different preferences for décor and we aren't physically intimate. I sleep much, much better now and decided my sleep quality and having my own safe space to just be me, is part of taking care of myself. So I say to go for it if it means prioritizing your own wellness. ;D

Quote from: Worthy of Care on December 20, 2021, 09:04:13 AM
H slept on the couch last night, I think because he was so upset, not because I want separate bedrooms.

This morning I was awake, but still in bed. He came in and asked, "What was the reason for separate bedrooms?" (What????  :stars:) I repeated my reasons. More conversation. When we were talking about lack of intimacy, one of the things that I said was, "In my experience, you share facts. I've rarely seen you show/share your feelings." My H said, "I'm not the kind of person who show his feelings---------as much as you need." He completely put that on me.  :no:

Yesterday when we talked, he said he needed time to pray about it. I asked him how much time. He has a history of thinking about things for days, weeks, or months. He said one month. I told him that one month was not needed. He said one week then.

WOC, are you familiar with circular conversations? It sounds like he was asking you to answer the same questions/have the same conversation over again. I've lived the through the same thing, and I understand feeling the need to explain, to help him understand. But, circular conversations don't go anywhere. 
I hope things are going well for you.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, sharing your experiences and for your advice. What you have said is valuable to me.

Two days ago my H came to me with a list of-----not quite sure how to describe it------thoughts about our relationship. I gave very little verbal response to what he said. I have read that if AVPD fears they are losing their significant person, they fear abandonment and will try to get the person back. I believe that is what that list was about. I keep reminding myself of that. One of the things he said is a hook for hope for me. I need to stay away from that worm, that hook.

Quote from: Worthy of Care on December 24, 2021, 10:08:40 AM
Thank you everyone for your thoughts, sharing your experiences and for your advice. What you have said is valuable to me.

Two days ago my H came to me with a list of-----not quite sure how to describe it------thoughts about our relationship. I gave very little verbal response to what he said. I have read that if AVPD fears they are losing their significant person, they fear abandonment and will try to get the person back. I believe that is what that list was about. I keep reminding myself of that. One of the things he said is a hook for hope for me. I need to stay away from that worm, that hook.

Worthy of Care,

So glad you understand what you are experiencing from your PD and now staying one-step ahead in your planning and having the toolbox on the ready at all times.  Congratulations to you!   

Also, Merry Christmas to you, if you are one that celebrates the season.   

SoT

I can appreciate his saying he does not express his feelings as much as you need.

I had a very close male friend who was like that.  But only verbally.  His actions on the other hand said what he could not verbalize. 

Holding a door open, standing in the rain holding a large umbrella over me when I was trouble shooting the phone box to restore internet when his wife had business deadlines online. Making me a just right cup of coffee when I was delayed getting down to the church coffee hour.

I guess I am saying I could give a pass on someone not being verbal, but another "love language" should be there if that is the case. 

With my pdh, over time I was parentified.  As this parentification took place his angst toward his parent or parents was also transfered.

I was left with someone who childishly feels entitled to being taken care of, entertained, etc with no responsibilities toward me. 
I think it's pretty common for it timacy to cease once oarentificatiin has taken place as it seems wrong to both parties.   

This is an interesting topic. My unpd husband absolutely hates the separate bed stuff because he's afraid someone might find out. We usually sleep separately after a major blowout. Then, he does his poor me routine and I cave and go back. But as of yesterday, I plan to just keep sleeping separately.

He expressed his disappointment in my Xmas gift choices. Fairly certain he was looking for supply. I was stupid and feeling vulnerable because Xmas is a hard time for me. I lost it, went crazy.

I feel safer in a bed alone. And, I get better rest.

I crack up about people finding out. They already know we are hanging on by a thread.

One thing that is comical is that so many of men will as often reported hang out all me in a room watching porn or playing video games alone but then expect their wife to sleep in the same room.  Others sleep in the same room then get up and skulk away to an office etc to be alone. 

It's not like they actually want company or intimacy, they are keeping up a pretense for an audience that is not there.  It's a picture of how so many of people put so much energy into keeping up the staged role play.

Quote from: 1footouttadefog on December 27, 2021, 12:34:25 PM
It's not like they actually want company or intimacy, they are keeping up a pretense for an audience that is not there.  It's a picture of how so many of people put so much energy into keeping up the staged role play.

1foot, this is exactly it!!! Staged role play. When we go out and about and especially when we are with people he deems important, the acting is turned WAY UP. I don't get it.

Another long conversation with my H. I feel good that I was able to (mostly) calmly and without judgement, call him out on some issues. He after some time was more honest (with himself and me). I don't know that those realizations will stick-----usually they don't, but at least the truth was said.

He brought up divorce a few times. He tried to put it on me, "Would it give you relief if we divorced?" I did not step into that.

He did agree to separate bedrooms. I will have the smaller bedroom, which makes me a bit angry since he only sleeps in the room and I spend a lot of time in the room. I bought myself a new quilt!

The change won't happened immediately, because the bedroom is full of Christmas boxes. I am slowly packing Christmas.

Don't underestimate what just sleeping well can do for you.  Of you have to pile the boxes high and make room in one side of the bed and sleep well. 

Having some space to sit quietly and read or pray or meditate, or to clear your head while making appointments in a calendar and making a to do list can be huge. 

Just a bit of advice don't give up the storage space you are using in the shared bedroom. 

Quote from: 1footouttadefog on December 27, 2021, 06:33:02 PM
Just a bit of advice don't give up the storage space you are using in the shared bedroom.

Appreciate that. I'm thinking about what I want/need in my room and what can stay in bedroom that is currently shared.

 :applause: Yeah you! I'm happy for you and hope you can have fun setting up the room the way that you want it to be. That's just so cool - way to go!
;D

I've been sleeping in my "new" room for a few nights now. I am slowly moving my things into the room. There are a lot of items that I will just leave in the other bedroom and bathroom.

I'm finding this transition to be highly distressful to me. Some of that is the sadness over the state of our marriage. Some distress is my own trauma and what leaving the bedroom that was my safe place to another bedroom does inside of me.

H has been reaching out to me in some ways. I am guarded.

I think your statement that you are upset about the state of your marriage, might really speak to your sadness.

When  I  made the transition to separate bedrooms, our marriage was over and I was totally Out of the FOG.  So, it was a relief and it's my safe space.  I just got rid of the king size bed and that felt wonderful.  Now, I even make the bed every morning - I never did that  ;D

Give it some time, to me, you are grieving.   I hope in awhile this may actually give you space so you have more energy to have a balanced life and enjoy aspects of your marriage.

Thank you PFNW. Yes, I am grieving. I do hope that with realistic expectations and good boundaries I will, in time, be able to enjoy parts of my marriage.

I hope you adjust to the separate bedrooms and that the sadness you are feeling will lessen with time. Last night my husband put on strong aftershave before coming to bed, even though he should have known it would bother me.  It took me hours to get to sleep last night because of it and he thinks it's funny. Be thankful for the option to have separate bedrooms.

Cascade, I'm sorry that your H did that and then thought it was funny. To know that something bothers someone and then think that it is funny is troubling.

I appreciate your reminder to be thankful for the option of separate rooms. I've been so overwhelmed by the pain and stress of it all. I can breathe enough now to be grateful that I have a room that can become my safe space.

For me it was part survival so the emotions were numbed by that.  There was still a bunch of mixed feelings also.

For me I think it was an aknowledgemwment of the fact I was not living as or being treated as a wife so why not at least sleep well.

1 footouttadefog,

Yes, me too. My therapist worded it well for me. He (H) doesn't attach, so a separate room is congruent with the truth of that.

You've done a brave thing and made a positive step toward improving your emotional heath.

Go, you!

Thank you, Lauren. I appreciate your encouragement.

H is "trying." I do not want to be mean or cold, but I am trying to protect myself.

I have found a level of MC that is warm but still a bit distant inside where I can receive efforts.

In my head I think things like "well this is nice that he offered" but not necessarily expect he will follow through, "this was a pleasant conversation" without expecting the next one to be so, "he seems to be in a good mood today" knowing tomorrow may be different.

Square, thank you for sharing that. That helps me a lot.