Out of the FOG

Several months back mommie dearest accused me of being the reason she doesn't have relationship with one of my siblings, that I somehow drove a wedge there. She was vicious about it and seemed to truly believe and enjoy her version of the story. She completely disregarded her own contempt for and neglect of that whole relationship, as if she could neatly lay it all at my feet.

My first (unfortunate) response was outright laughter at the ridiculousness of it all, and it didn't improve from there. I wasn't laughing at her but rather the very idea that I somehow created this chasm between them. As I pointed out to her that day, he's a deeply intelligent and strong willed individual on his own - he doesn't need and wouldn't welcome any interference from me.

The call ended with more attacks on *my* character and supposed motives, then her telling me where I could go and hanging up on me. I've not called her since. She's called a couple of times with perky chirpy airy fairy messages as if that ugliness never happened. I went along ... Until I find I can't.

All is not right with the world/her and it's not okay. I need her to explain and to clear the air. If she's not able to do that, I can't pretend any longer. It's eaten at me long enough. Lord knows she built that up in her mind a while before dumping it on me so ...

I have before me an ultimatum. I threw it out to her via text that I'd like to clear the air. If she can't or won't apologize for the things she said and the way she talked to me, my way forward is clear and she's well and truly on her own.

this is HUGE girl!

Huge to me/us but I'm afraid she may use this as another opportunity to put on a big mad and be a victim. I'm just not willing to swallow it any longer and pretend it's all okay.

Thing is, mother's much more likely to call or text during the work week when she knows I won't answer. Actually talking something out and laying it to rest is not her forte, but I have to try even if she'd rather play all put upon and mad. And then trot out the many and varied excuses why I'm wrong and she isnt responsible (yet again) for her own words.


And if the gods are kind, she'll do just that and go completely silent.

She responded but -wait for it- she says I didn't seem to want to talk about it (after I asked specifically wth she was talking about??) AND says she's not going to dwell on something she can do nothing about. What. The actual. She can do nothing about the way she talks to me? She can do nothing about her baseless accusations and outright nastiness??

But the piece' de resistance? She wants me to come up there/her house after my brothers legal issues are resolved. Wth has one to do with the other?? I have no answer. These issues have been ongoing for some five years now and I'm not sure what any of it has to do with her. Guarandamntee he's not and won't be requesting her presence. But No, she needs to wait longer to talk to me ..

What dafuq ever, mommie dearest. You do you, I should have seen an excuse coming. Bet she's hoping I'll let it go. NOPE.

And so the texts begin ... She couldn't/wouldn't talk to me yesterday, but she's already texting vague snippets with lots of exclamation points. References to "the family problems" as if she had no responsibility there for the complete lack of respect and compassion she's shown for years. She sees it as her against the world I suppose, while I'm taking each relationship individually. They're not all one and the same for me - yes they're my brothers, but they're individuals first. She sees just extensions of herself, and apparently doesn't like what she sees. So *we're* supposed to change to suit her, I guess.

Sigh. It's sad, y'all. Another glimpse into her emptiness, fed by anger and martyrdom.

Ugh.  Just what audience are these texts playing to?  They almost sound like some Facebook drama/manipulation that others are reading. 

Wowza and food for you for speaking up. It's not going to get anywhere I'm pretty certain. There's no switch to flip, no flash of light coming. No admitting anything. Just the usual PD playbook stuff, more of the same, over and over and over. I'm so sorry Mo and hope you can disconnect from the craziness.

So basically, as I'm sure y'all knew and rightly predicted, her texts were for her to speak - not at all for me to respond. She makes the rules (wait to talk), breaks them by continuing herself, then gets all huffy when I dared respond.

She ended those volleys with asking why I don't drop it for now (um YOU continued so I thought you wanted to??), then noted that "this" is discouraging. Well no shit, Sherlock!! It's been real discouraging, for a real long time! I can't help but wonder what she possibly saw as ENcouraging here, at any point in time. That I want to talk to her at all and she thought she could gloss over it? Maybe she was casting about for someone to blame and I put it right back on her and her choices?


Maybe it's one small clue for her that all is not right with the world and I cant/won't ignore it. But I'm not supposed to stand up, ask questions, request answers. I'm supposed to comply and lay down like a good little doormat.
That tiny glimpse confirmed that she wants me to "visit" to talk around it. Play nice. Pretend all is well. I know she doesn't want to talk about anything, she's fine right where it is. Leave the past in the past and all that. Well yeah. Except she doesn't. The instant she gets some push-back, it'll all blow again.

It wasn't a good day. Predictable as the sun coming up in the morning, My stomach was wrecked all day, continued into the evening. Talked to my brother for a while and got it out, then I dove back into Harry Potter to escape my mind. Soon everything settled around and within me.

Moglow - this....

QuoteI have before me an ultimatum. I threw it out to her via text that I'd like to clear the air. If she can't or won't apologize for the things she said and the way she talked to me, my way forward is clear and she's well and truly on her own.

:cheer:

False accusations made. Mo corrects and confronts the lies and falsehoods setting a firm line. Mother equivocates and kicks up dust to confuse and confound and frustrate.

Your mother seems like a person that needs a fight to get out of bed in the morning.

And your body keeps score and you suffer once again. What a painful exchange. I am so sorry you are dealing with this and really proud of you for drawing the line. That is huge!

And she's texting again this morning ... Apparently I gave her a tongue lashing in my few texts yesterday. And she paid her debt to me a long time ago. Not sure what that debt may have been or that one was owed on either side, but duly noted.

But yes, I guess she starts her days with/looking for a fight, gets what she's looking for and then feels all justified in it. As a good friend just noted, maybe if this debt is paid I'm free to walk away.

QuoteShe ended those volleys with asking why I don't drop it for now (um YOU continued so I thought you wanted to??),

Gosh, it's she related to my probably N BIL? He starts stuff and then says "Just drop it now! " as if he didn't start it. :roll:

*We* are supposed to drop it I suppose, while they continue on unhampered This goes back to her standard "children are to be seen and not heard," and you never "talk back" to mommie dearest. You're supposed to sit/stand there and take it for as long as it lasts and whatever form it takes. In silence. In my mind I hear "did you hear what I said??? Answer me when I'm talking to you!" Then yelling more when you dared say anything in response.

Double bind, damned if you do damned if you don't. Guess she's found her mad through my unwanted response.

Gosh Mo, every time I think perhaps I should dive back into my FOO to try to mend some bridges, I come here and there's one of your posts somewhere at the top of the thread list.
It's like you're the tour guide up front of me in the track shouting 'Rock Fall! Rock Fall.'
I don't know what to say other than I'm sorry you're going through this and thank you for reminding me what happens when you venture back down the rabbit hole, trying to hold one of them accountable, and invariably they turn it around and spin it so it's all your fault.
It's exhausting and crazy-making and infuriating.
Whenever I encounter anyone who believes the spin promoted by my family and they want me to justify myself I just shake my head & say 'Oh no, you should believe all they say. It's all my fault and I am a terrible human being and they are all far better off without me poisoning their lives.'
And then I add another name to the list of Suckers, Flying Monkeys and Sycophants that I need to keep far from my inner circle of sanity and I exit the rabbit hole and leave them to it.
:bighug:

I made that very reference today, that I'm the one who dragged myself back down the rabbit hole. I did it. I brought up the unmentionable, the very thing that set her off the last time, only that time she blindsided me with it. I didn't understand then, understand even less now other than her insistence on always having a mad in reserve.

I would occasionally have appreciated some insight in how she goes from point A to B by way of XY or Z. But as we all well know, it's based on the whim if a moment, a shift of the air, lunar eclipse at midday or what have you. So nah. Her debt to me was paid long ago, remember.  :blink:

Quote from: sandpiperGosh Mo, every time I think perhaps I should dive back into my FOO to try to mend some bridges, I come here and there's one of your posts somewhere at the top of the thread list.
It's like you're the tour guide up front of me in the track shouting 'Rock Fall! Rock Fall.'
I don't know what to say other than I'm sorry you're going through this and thank you for reminding me what happens when you venture back down the rabbit hole, trying to hold one of them accountable, and invariably they turn it around and spin it so it's all your fault.

You think maybe I'm that lesson we all need, that big ole flashing "Danger, Will Robinson!" meant to give someone pause before you leap? Perhaps. My mistake yet again was in not sticking with that gut punch "I'm done here" that was voiced by both me and mommie dearest when she lit into me last time. But she's not done, she's never done. She pulls back then plays nice like all is well, only it's not and we both know it.

For all that she flings in my face that I've shown her over and over how I feel about her (or not), it doesn't occur to her that works both ways OR that she gets mad whenever I point it out. The contempt in her words and tone, the many times she's sneered at me like I'm nothing - I have no doubt at times I've returned it without thinking. I honestly wonder if it's deliberate on her part, trying to goad me into returning fire so she can SEE??? And you dare accuse me of talking down to you!! What do you expect, treating your own mother that way?? You know, painting me as the bad guy so she can feel all justified.

But, I called it again. She tells me to wait until "things settle down" so we can talk, then starts texting and gets all offended when I respond. She burns down all possibility of trying to find any middle ground within a couple of days. Once again she's texting when she knows I'm at work and can't focus or talk to her at all. That's WHY I blocked her cell phone years ago, because it was so disruptive with her circular spiral bullshit. Who am I kidding? It's all a game to her, entertainment.

And I jumped down that rabbit hole, AGAIN  :disappear:

I am sorry over how she is acting, Moglow. Don't beat yourself up over wanting to try to make things better. How she is acting is certainly not your fault. You just wanted to see if she'd be willing to have a discussion so you could try to work out the problems in your relationship. IMO she is showing that she cant do that. How frustrating that she keeps saying "Let's wait until this settles down" then continues to blow up your phone.

There is nothing wrong with going down the rabbit hole to try to see if things will be better the next time around. I randomly test the waters with my parents to always find nothing has changed. I always have to recheck just in case. And I do it far less out in the open than you (like I share something about me to see how they react). You have a lot of courage even if you don't feel it. I've never had the courage to openly confront either of them. I think it's natural to crave a better relationship with our parents even if logically we know it's impractical. Coming to terms with "things will never change" is difficult IMO. It feels too final.

I hope your situation improves and she gives you a break from the texting tirade.

Athene, honestly at this point I hope she just goes away and stays there. I know who she is as much as I'm able, and I don't like her. Were she not my mother, I'd have never kept her even on the distant periphery of my life. That's telling, isn't it? Mother sees me as a lesser extension of herself who is apparently only allowed mother's views and opinions, follows her lead and never dares speak up otherwise.

She's chosen to let it/this concern of mine go (for whatever period of time, again) so everyone must. Over and over and over again, now's not the time. It's the holidays, birthday, random anniversary of some event or death in the family, "situations" needing resolution first, etc. She goes on about "everything going on" but doesn't actually say what that is, just complains that I have no idea what she's dealing with. Plus her inevitably taking on stress and drama of something totally not hers at all, and her nerves are shot with the drama of it all.  :dramaqueen:


There's never going to be a perfect time, and she doesn't want to hear it anyway. Always an excuse and "just leave it in the past," as if it's not the self same as before, possibly a slightly different event but same result. Her response/lack of same has rolled it off into a lifetime of problems between us. She says/said in the past she wants a relationship with me, but why?? To what possible purpose?

Truth is, we don't and won't have a relationship to speak of. If either of us were remotely interested, we wouldn't be having this conversation about a good time to talk. We'd just talk, strive to do better, lay it down and continue on. Random peripheral bullshit wouldn't be flung in my face to cloud the issue. She wouldn't be picking up sticks to throw later when it's quiet and peaceful. Because there's somehow always one.more.thing that she's dredged from ancient history that I never heard about before ...

I feel guilty sometimes because I don't have the courage to test the waters with my FOO.
When I started at these boards I felt like I'd been drained of the will to live because of the constant jabs. Most of it little things, but you bleed and you bruise and it erodes your spirit.
And I'd never know if they'd done something deliberately to hurt me or if it was just that I mattered so little to them that they didn't even realise they were hurting me. And there's that standard abuser response of 'You're being oversensitive.'
In my FOO there's the compounding problems of alcohol & substance abuse, so I could never nail it...is it the narcissism, the BPD, the alcohol, the illicit drugs, the over-the-counter-drugs, the prescription medications (at one point I'm sure that uBPDsis was taking stuff she'd made the doctors prescribe for her kids)...or is it just that they feel better if they can make me feel rotten - all of it was just like walking through a  field of landmines and quicksand and never knowing if something was going to suck you under and suffocate you or send you flying through the air bleeding and reeling from being hit by the explosive schrapnel.
And then there's the time you waste after each encounter, licking your wounds, doing triage, wondering WTH went wrong with your strategy and why your counsellor-endorsed psychological HAZMAT suit failed to protect you from the toxic air in that environment and how they managed to find new weapons to penetrate the armour that you don before you step back into the arena.
I just have this sense of futility, now. I still feel that longing - imagine if they did the work to get better. Imagine it. I did it, why can't they? Why is it so much easier for them to keep on with what they do, surely they can see that they're poisoning their own lives as well as mine?
It's just so damned frustrating, that they don't.
I remember when I started counselling, I had this goal of wanting to be find a way to have a relationship with my family. Therapy has led me so far away from that, because at some point I realised that this was an impossible dream and I had to set realistic goals, and the achievable goal was that I could do things differently in my own life, but I could never change my FOO. Breaking the cycle meant breaking away.
That hurts. Some days I'm OK with it, other days, no.
I can't imagine not wanting that, Mo.
I think it's very, very human. And as others have said - testing the waters isn't unreasonable, it isn't a wrong choice. It means that we are still flexible and open to change.
One of the things I beat myself up for is that I don't feel strong enough or resilient enough to test those waters. I admire those of you that do.
I've come to think that it's just human to hold out hope that one day, they'll change. Hope is the other side of the coin from despair.
Sometimes what gets to me is a sense of failure at my own inability to find a way to deal with them. In another sense it's just pure frustration that they won't step up and go to therapy and do the work that I started to do, thirty-five years ago. There's a sense for me now that I've travelled so far away from my FOO, trying to learn more positive ways to engage with the world, that FOO is now a foreign country. Even that feels like the wrong analogy, though, because I think for most people there's comfort in going home. For me, it's discomfort, and it's immediate.
I'm glad I did the work.
But I know that I'm a refugee from my own family, and it doesn't feel safe to go back.
You tried, Mo. You went back and the war is still going on inside your mother's head. You tried - it didn't work - and now you sit back and do the emotional triage.
It sucks.
I was really close to attempting contact with the worst abusers in my FOO, and then for some reason I came here and the first post I saw was yours.
Perhaps we get the moon cycles too and I'm right there behind you with that urge to try... :stars: Anyway this time around you were the canary down the coal mine, for me.
And I am grateful for the reminder.
I know that if I tried, I'd be reaching out to people who haven't done the work that everyone here has done. The way that people speak about things here, and process stuff and are kind while they are able to challenge us to seek new insights...that's become a new normal for me. It's something that I learned here and in T and I'm so grateful for that because I've been able to carry it with me into the real world and it's my tool kit, my sustenance, my first aid kit, you know?
Sometimes I need to remind myself of something I once said to a therapist, who was wanting me to test/break NC. And that was a very firm 'No' and what I said to her was 'I can't. They won't change and I don't like who I become in response to them.'
I think sometimes that is just the bottom line for me, with boundaries. I need to be with people who can bring out the best in me and who will accept and forgive and love me when I'm not at my best, when things are dragging me down.
FOO is just so hard.
I have a particularly challenging one who is creating a snarl of complications for me at the moment and the number of times I've had the uncharitable thought 'Piper, just breathe, things will be easier when he's dead.' The first time I thought that I felt terrible. The awful thing is that it's true. PDs are exhausting. People who aren't related to one just have no idea what we deal with and the weariness of spirit that comes from dealing with someone who sees everything through the distorting kaleidoscope lense of their own internal damage.
I'm rambling, and I'll stop.
Hugs, Mo. From one old soldier in the PD trenches to another.
I don't know what I'd do, some days, if I didn't have you guys at these boards.
I've built a pretty good life for myself but nobody gets it like you guys do.
:Monsta: :spaceship: :sharkbait: :yourock:

Your mother sounds a lot like mine  :doh:

My mother has this perception that "the world" owes her. She sees herself as this self-sacrificing martyr whom everyone is out to get. Even her own children. And for that reason, you cannot make any demands on her because she is such a poor victim who has always had to live up to everyone's demands.

This, of course, it projection at its finest. She is describing others as herself. She is the one making constant demands and victimizing her children.

What is so crazy is that any conflict is an energy boost for her. Whereas for me, it's the opposite. That's why it makes no sense to have a "talk" with her. She will escalate the conflict to a huge fight which will make me sad and angry whereas she will feel fantastic and energized afterwards.  She cannot learn, I will only make my own mental health worse if I try to talk reason with her. It's the opposite of what almost every self-help book, psychologist or coach will tell you. This concept of "talking about things" does not exist.

Quote from: sandpiper...I was really close to attempting contact with the worst abusers in my FOO, and then for some reason I came here and the first post I saw was yours.
Perhaps we get the moon cycles too and I'm right there behind you with that urge to try...  :stars: Anyway this time around you were the canary down the coal mine, for me.
And I am grateful for the reminder.

Sandpaper, I'm glad you saw a canary when you needed  and that I was able to help! Oddly for me, other than initial day-of stomach circus, I've been all right. Okay I'm tired - REALLY tired - but that too makes sense. Adrenalin dump and all that. Not a fun time, but that too is a necessary evil. The recovery time is much needed and a continuing reminder of what it takes out if us when we jump off into yet another exercise in futility.

QuoteI know that if I tried, I'd be reaching out to people who haven't done the work that everyone here has done. The way that people speak about things here, and process stuff and are kind while they are able to challenge us to seek new insights...that's become a new normal for me. It's something that I learned here and in T and I'm so grateful for that because I've been able to carry it with me into the real world and it's my tool kit, my sustenance, my first aid kit, you know?

I'd not thought of that but you make a good point. I've come to learn and appreciate a different world that mother has no clue even exists. We may not always agree here and we have some tough conversations, but we have them - without shredding anyone. She literally refers to those conversations as "picking a fight." Valuable information there, isn't it? Anything that challenges her inner status quo is picking a fight??? Driving turmoil? No acknowledgement that people need to be told some things, that they can only guess (and usually guess wrong!) if nothing is actually said.

Incredibly sad world she's chosen isn't it - and don't mistake me, I know she *has* chosen it, time and time again. Knowingly, willingly and to all intents and purposes, happily. Feeling all justified in her anger is apparently her happy. She's welcome to it. Life really is too short and I don't want *this* to be my legacy as well.

But I'm thankful I was your canary again.  :cool2:

Yesterday was my birthday and not a peep out of mother. I'm not hurt or disappointed, actually not even surprised. I don't remember the last time I actually saw her on my birthday, but I know I last saw her on her 80th, almost two years ago.

She's made a few comments here and there about me not calling (I've sent cards the past few years), was openly angry when I went on a retreat the weekend of her birthday last year. I wouldn't have visited any way, and the chances of her actually answering the phone are slim to nonexistent. And that retreat was heavenly!!

In the back of my mind I hear her voice - now you know how it feels to have someone not care. Um no, I already knew. I learned that one waaaaaaay back. This was just petty and small minded, her trying to prove a point "well I didn't hear from you on MINE last year ..." Yeah, ya did. I just didn't do what you expected.

It'd be funny if it weren't so damn petty and spiteful.  This is my mother - isnt she a prize.

It's very sad and if your inner child is feeling wounded and needs some tender care please be sure to check in on her. It would be a normal reaction. I'm sorry and hope today is better.

It's sad, Spring, but not as hurtful as I'm sure she intended. It's just another brick in the wall she's built here. I can hear all her justifications now ... THAT is the sad part, that she never freakin grew up.

It's all so unnecessary.

Moglow - silence is just as toxic as verbal abuse in these circumstances.  I will always believe that silence and invalidation like you are experiencing on a day when you deserve to rightfully be celebrated is a targeted undermining and punitive and can be crazy making and tangle us up if we allow it to penetrate our inner defenses.  :'(

My greatest hope is that you were/are able to find personal refreshment and distance from a woman who collects perceived wrongs instead of building love and connection with her beautiful child. :hug:

Petty mo wants to send a text - You made your point, mommie dearest. I wish you joy of it.

I won't, but the gritted-teeth desire to smack back is most certainly there. She always seem to find a new lower level petty to sink to, it never ceases to amaze me.

Quote from: Outsiderchild on February 03, 2020, 10:16:29 PM
Ugh.  Just what audience are these texts playing to?  They almost sound like some Facebook drama/manipulation that others are reading.

This is a good question and something I've often wondered with my own mother (who does not do social media at all-- small mercies!). I think that some PDs are always playing to an invisible audience, arguing to an invisible jury. With my mother, it's also a jury whose memory resets with every new communication, so if she can just tell the story her way, that will be what's real. It's truly maddening.

She's mad (according to explosion with brother #2) - thought I was in town helping him with a legal issue and didn't tell her. She sees me as picking sides (there are "sides" here??) and clearly I'm not on hers. I was/am helping him where I'm able, but wasn't in her town at any point.

Again, what her issues with others have to do with me, I have no idea. Drama. All a pack of drama, and all of her own invention.

Gee, I had to tell my son "this isn't sides, it's family" because updh was bugging him in that way. What IS it with them and sides!!!
Updh wasn't saying it directly but was trying to divide us all up into sides (divide and conquer? Really?)

One of mother's favorites, divide and conquer. She  doesn't get that some things don't involve her whatsoever, yet she's still trying to insert herself in some way.


And she wonders why she has no relationships with her children ...

I'm petty mo today and I'm owning it. I sent a snotty text to mommie dearest, told her I thought it was petty and spiteful of her to completely disregard and ignore my birthday because she's mad at someone else. Basically I'm not sure what message she'd intended, but one was definitely received. It went straight downhill from there, her claiming she sent a card several days before my birthday [never saw it and still haven't], then flinging at me that on her last birthday I went on a retreat. [I did and it was wonderful! I also sent her a card ahead of time because I knew I wouldn't be able to call from there. I tried to reach her several times the next day on my drive home but she refused to answer or return my calls.]

She then sent a picture of a card and envelope addressed to me [?!!] that she says she'd sent to one of my cousins. Huh?  :unsure: [what.the actual - who DOES that??] She dipped further into accusations that there have been "a lot of lies [told] about a lot of things" [nope, no fucking clue what THAT is about, just another rendition of oft-repeated vagueness]. So now I'm a liar. Right, good move. Deflect. Attack. Accuse. And repeated "did you get the card or not??"  Um, clearly I didn't and I've already said so, thus MY petty bs here. No card, text, call or carrier pigeon. Nada. THEN I'm told I need to do something constructive instead of being destructive. Um, hello pot kettle!!

But she's mad. Blazing mad, because ...? I called her on it? Because I dared speak my mind? Me - I'm not mad. Resigned with her and disgusted with myself for even opening this cesspool.  [replacing lid and backing quietly away]

I know - I was wrong. I should have been an adult and let it go. This time I just refused - and REALLY didn't appreciate being called a liar yet again. If you're gonna do that you better be fucking well ready to back it up with specifics, not hit and run!

And we don't have a decent relationship because ...?  :Idunno:

Sorry for more heart break. There is a saying VividImagination used to have as a tagline that I try to live by when dealing with people who won't quit/change trying to make your life miserable:

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." (George Bernhard Shaw)

Sent mother an apology for the hurt I caused, she didn't even acknowledge it. Guess we've commenced silent treat - and yes I'm okay with that. I don't want to talk to or hear from her.

Mother doesn't have any decency or compassion other than that directed to and for her only. She refused to accept responsibility for anything she's said or done. She's completely oblivious to how she treats others. Seems to revel in it as her due. I suppose in her mind, it really is.

There's a lesson here, for all of us. Listen to those small clear voices inside when all is quiet, when you're relaxed and at peace. Don't fight or disregard them. They will steer you right. Fighting against what you know to be true will only cause chaos and hurt.

Moglow - I think she told you why she's mad... even though you did acknowledge her last bday you also were busy living your life and she was not your first priority. :dramaqueen:

Quote from: moglow on February 16, 2020, 11:21:52 AM
Sent mother an apology for the hurt I caused, she didn't even acknowledge it. Guess we've commenced silent treat - and yes I'm okay with that. I don't want to talk to or hear from her.

Mother doesn't have any decency or compassion other than that directed to and for her only. She refused to accept responsibility for anything she's said or done. She's completely oblivious to how she treats others. Seems to revel in it as her due. I suppose in her mind, it really is.

There's a lesson here, for all of us. Listen to those small clear voices inside when all is quiet, when you're relaxed and at peace. Don't fight or disregard them. They will steer you right. Fighting against what you know to be true will only cause chaos and hurt.

I am really sorry this brought more painful realizations. Here's to us all trusting those wise voices that have our best interest at heart. Thank you for the reminder. I needed to hear this today. :hug:

i'm just so sorry it played out to this girl.   i'm still shaking my noggin about her being mad because you went away on HER birthday...... 

Quotei'm still shaking my noggin about her being mad because you went away on HER birthday...... 

Yeah, even more so when you consider on her birthday before that, we (brother and i) struggled to find topics of conversation with her. The whole time we talked about things we did as kids - she had no clue. She drew a complete blank, but brought up a few oft-repeated incidents that supposedly reflected badly on/to her. It was painful really, how little she knows even about our childhood.

Even then, that was the first birthday I'd been with her in YEARS. And then she picked it apart afterwards finding "fault", left no desire to repeat the experience.

Am I going away on her birthday *this* year? Why yes, I believe I will!!

Once again I've arrived late. Sending hugs and belated happy birthday wishes to you, Mo.
:bighug: :bighug: :bighug:
I forget, sometimes, the psychological safety and the logic of the world that I now walk around in. It's now 15 years of NC with my sisters and I miss who they once were, since they spiralled down the rabbit-hole of untreated PTSD into *functional* substance abuse/dependence and they began to settle into so many of the behaviours that our parents considered normal and which I've struggled to break away from.
It's like stepping Out of the FOG and the quicksand into the light of a gentle landscape. Looking back, it's hard to imagine why the people still trapped inside that FOG can't do the work to lift the clouds, life is so rewarding and satisfying when you aren't lost in the smog and constantly tripping over those invisible *traps*.
I get why you needed to try.
Xoxoxoxoxox

Mo - I meant to suggest a book, just for the pure enjoyment of reading a story from one of *us* - someone who gets it. I can't remember if I've mentioned this before, but I loved 'The Erratics' by Vicki Laveau-Harvie. It won the Stella prize here in Oz last year & I met her a couple of times at author events. She is The Goods.  Look for it, she has a grace and a humour about dealing with the Rabbit Hole that warmed the spikey little cockles on my heart xxx

Thank you, sandpiper! I'll have to look her up, sounds like something up my alley.

Doing a lot of thinking these days - just came off a long pet sitting gig in the best house. It was tucked back in a quiet neighborhood, very peaceful and healing there actually. Ive had a bad cold that's not easy to shake off but that kind of enforced isolation seemed to soothe me somehow. House is built around a courtyard - a waterfall feature spilled off into the pool so the sound of water and breezes blowing wind chimes was pretty much the only sound other than purring of a cat and occasional dog bark. Anyway, both pets were easy and loving, quick to snuggle and glad to see me at the end of the day.

I understand that mother doesn't want reason or resolution. She just wants a mad, so she can spew all over her victim of choice. And she wants it whenever she wants for as long as she wants, until she doesnt. Then you're supposed to be okay with that mindless sweeping under the tattered rug of her mind.

I've also realized I'm not the victim I used to be - I don't cower under it and beg her, I don't turn myself inside out to appease her. I'm not that person anymore, far from it. I'm the mean nasty because I challenge her, call her on the stupidity of it all. I stand up for myself and refuse to be her victim, refuse to swallow whatever she dishes out. How galling that must be for her!!

I'm gonna be okay, better than okay really. I know this now. It's painful and numbing at times, but I'll be better for it. I'd much rather share THIS me than her predecessors!

A bit of zen in the surrounds is good for the soul, hey.
You know, I think that sometimes cycling back into the cray-cray to test the waters and see if the relationship can be any less toxic can lead to some positives. And that's it, isn't it, the realisation that the PD FOO may still be caught up in that cycle of the Karpman Drama Triangle of Victim/persecutor/saviour that is utterly without any kind of self-reflection, insight or growth - but we've changed.
I remember the sadness that I felt decades ago when I realised that my FOO didn't see any need for change. They would happily continue to think that they knew it all, were doing just fine and a bit better than most really, and that if someone inside the family wasn't coping it was because they just needed to shut the hell up, toe the line, drink the kool-aid, stop making life difficult...you know the drill.
I remember how hard it was when I first started learning about boundaries. It was so uncomfortable because the boundaries that had been modelled to me were 'It's my way or the highway' and I felt like I was floundering, trying to learn about boundaries and how to have respectful relationships.
I remember one thread years ago where a stack of us said 'wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a recovery guide-book' - because some days it sure as hell seems like the PDs have a playbook that they all follow, so why shouldn't there be a one-size fits all guide to recovery.
But it's different for all of us and I've come to realise that it's because we all get damaged in different ways.
I learn something every time I come here.
Even if it's just a simple reminder of just how damaged my PD FOO are, and that the progress that I've made in the last three decades towards recovering from that has done so much good for me, but the other side of that is that it's widened the chasm between us, and perhaps that's something that I can't bridge now, because of how that distance has grown, and my capacity to stretch myself that thin is something I can and will no longer do.
Does that make me inflexible or have I finally learned to be self-protective?
Maybe neither of those judgments apply. Maybe I've just learned how to have good relationships and I suck at engaging with the bad ones.
When I started therapy I thought that one day I'd have the skills to navigate any kind of BS.
I don't think that, now. These days I tend to think that the value of all my time in T has been to teach me to trust my nose and steer clear of destructive relationships. I don't think there is a way to engage with someone with a PD on any kind of intimate level, if they aren't willing to at least try to work on themselves, because you'll always get drawn back into their ways of resolving conflict - which is essentially about escalating it.
I'm glad you had some peaceful time to reflect, Mo. Nature & animals always helps me, too.

Moglow, what you're dealing with, with your mother is awful and I wish you much strength.

I just want to mention that your post that speaks of your mother needing "a mad in reserve" really struck me.

That's such a great way to describe it.

I know that my pds are always fishing for information about me that they can twist into something unrecogisable and then throw at me in the form of an accusation at some later date.

But I also know that they seem to seeth and seeth, gradually getting to bursting point where they have to let it out.

That's when the "mad" happens.  The information they've caught in their various fishing trips is the subject of the "mad".

Thanks for putting that into words. I love the term!

AOD

So yeah, I'm dredging this mess back up, simply to update. Brother who lives closest to mommie dearest asked me to text something to her - some attachment to an email, he doesn't have internet access right now and wanted her to read this thing. Against my better judgment I did. I get the uber perky chirpy gooey response I should have expected, thank you SOOOO much for thinking of me etc etc  :roll: .

Translation: She's had about a month of silence and I suppose she thought that was time enough for me to have moved on. And she has a new disaster on which to cast blame for everything awkward and uncomfortable in her life so she can feel better about how she treats people. Still not a farking clue that I'm neither a broom nor a rug and I'm not sweeping under anymore. I simply refuse to discuss anything of any substance with her any further. It's not worth my time nor air.

But wait, there's more! The next morning she texts to tell me she needed to explain to me why she's buying [frozen delivery meals] now - literally told me they're packed with seasonings and nutrition and it's so hard for her, standing to cook. [It's ALSO packed with sodium and preservatives and chemicals AND that gets expensive really quick when that's your sole source of food, but you get on with your bad self.] I didn't ask for or require an explanation. You do you - the fact that I think that's an incredibly bad idea on several levels, I'm not voicing to her. She has two perfectly good grocery stores within a mile either direction and a couple of good farmers markets where she can get local produce, but no.

Once again, she's glossing over the whole froufrou of a month ago, where she made it abundantly clear she's going to do what she's going to do and is going to go outer limits should anyone dare attempt to redirect or God help us, talk it out and head a better direction! I'm not ya buddy. I'm honestly not concerned with your choices. It's not my stuff and I'm not allowing it to be my stuff.
That teeny voice in the back of my mind says again, "mo, you asked her to let you know when's a good time to talk and she hasn't. She's not going to because she thinks this is some kind of game to you, as it is for her. She's in it for the entertainment of it all." We know this, and the new mo doesn't live there anymore. The old mo would sweep under the rugs as demanded and play like all is okay until the next explosion. The new mo - she doesn't really care or want any apart of any explosion or icky sweetness.

So - yay me. Progress.

Thanks for refreshing the thread Mo. I haven't been on much recently so I'm glad to have seen it, and I'm sorry to read about your problems. I wish you strength to continue with your progress. Yay you!

What scares me about this thread is that my unpdM always insists that it's me who had the problem. Am I the one with the pd? She wants to talk things through, be grown up, resolve the issues. All the top psychologists have told her that you have to talk things through in order to resolve any issues. It's me who says that the only way we can continue any sort of relationship is to put things behind us, and live in the moment. She accuses me of wanting to sweep it all under the carpet, and I say putting the past behind us is the only thing that is going to work if she wants me to continue to help her. My reasoning is that she never listens, takes no responsibility for any part of the problem - it's a circular argument that would co on onto infinity and beyond! She accuses me of lying and forgetting, and I say the same about her. I know it's gaslighting, but could it be me that's lighting the gas?  :'(

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I wish I'd known about npd years ago and made my escape while she was younger and more capable. Now she's old and frail and the humanity in me doesn't want to (is afraid to?) abandon her.

QuoteWhat scares me about this thread is that my unpdM always insists that it's me who had the problem. Am I the one with the pd?

Okay, I'll play - what if you DO have a PD? Believing that she/they do, doesn't preclude the possibility that we may also have a PD or at least have traits. And? I'm fairly confident that you've at the very least looked at yourself and seen things you don't like [who among us hasn't?], and taken steps to understand why you do the things you do. That puts you several steps ahead of the curve - awareness and acceptance of your own responsibility in the dance! NONE of us are perfect or beyond redemption as long as we continue to reach out for help and input, take others' words and views under consideration. And every one of us have or will say or do things we wish we hadnt - know what we do then? We apologize. We try to make amends and change our behavior.

QuoteShe wants to talk things through, be grown up, resolve the issues. ... It's me who says that the only way we can continue any sort of relationship is to put things behind us, and live in the moment. She accuses me of wanting to sweep it all under the carpet, and I say putting the past behind us is the only thing that is going to work if she wants me to continue to help her.

Another limb I'll step out on - Maybe you don't want to get into it because it's the same old-same old, you getting battered for things that you have/had no control over or maybe even were a child and those things still continue to get thrown in your face? Speaking for myself, that's a whole shit-ton of what I've received, and pretty much what I got when I started this thread. MAYBE you just don't want a repeat performance?

And my "favorite" because it's so painfully familiar:

QuoteMy reasoning is that she never listens, takes no responsibility for any part of the problem - it's a circular argument that would go on onto infinity and beyond! She accuses me of lying and forgetting, and I say the same about her. I know it's gaslighting, but could it be me that's lighting the gas? 

Put down that stick you're beating yourself with. Do it now. Consider that she has the only version of the truth she's willing to accept. Like mine I believe, a whole lot of what's wrong in her life and her relationships are the other people, never her stuff. She can choose to believe that all she wants, but it doesn't change things: "talking it out" with her is likely just another grand opportunity for her to kitchen sink her limitless grievances and annoyances onto you. And before you know it, she wants to talk it out again and again. It's like the vent on a pressure cooker, only you/we're the one who gets cooked.

MyLife, I'm tellin' ya, we believe these awful and painful things about ourselves because our mothers told us so. The one person we've been told ad nauseum loves us unconditionally and only wants the best for us has told us repeatedly exactly what she thinks and feels. Yes, I know that deep down that's likely what she thinks and feels about herself, but that's HER STUFF. She's choosing to do nothing about her negativity and spite, holding on to ancient grievances. Her. Stuff. Listen to YOUR inner voices, the ones that tell you you're good and worthy and deserve better. Listen to your friends and loved ones who actually respond to you with warmth and kindness. Don't shut yourself off and away, believing all her stuff - find your people if you haven't already!

Tremendous insight Mo. Thank you for your detailed reply. And your last sentence, wow: yes I DO shut myself off and away, especially during the times when she's being mean and spiteful. I need to get over that, once corona has gone away that is.

:bighug:

Reach out now, even if only by text or calls  - others are lonely and hurting, scared or even just bored. Lay a foundation, find mutual interests, seek out people with kind hearts and giving minds. Change that chemistry and the habits we've developed. Do it for others and it becomes part of you.  :bigwink: