You Gotta Be Starting Something...

[DreamingofQuiet]

I think the last time I checked in was around Christmas time. My mother took a handful of pills and wound up in a psych hold. My brother and Dad got to go thru all that with her. I stayed far away.

Well, last week I get a flurry of bizarre texts from my mother. I can understand enough to know she's back in the hospital. Within a day of learning this, I get another flurry of texts in which she is demanding my brother call her because the hospital is holding her "against her will." I get in contact with both my brother and father and learn that she collapsed at home and has been diagnosed with congestive heart failure.

She called me while I was at work, and I answered. We talked for a bit. It was ok, all things considered. I promised her I would come see her in a week or two. It's not something I really look forward to, but I feel her health is pretty bad, and there might not be a lot of time left (while also worrying/believing she will outlive me. Anyone else experience this?)

I tried to talk to my dad about the whole Covid19 thing, advising him to lay in extra supplies so he can lay low if need be. He shuts me down on that front pretty quickly. I can never tell him anything.

Meanwhile my brother is telling me how our mother is talking to him. She's being imperious and rude, accusing him of not caring and demanding he come down where they are and help them. I find it interesting that she talks to him this way but not me. Am I the 'good' child right now, even tho my brother has been much more present for her for quite some time? Maybe it's cause she knows I won't stick around if she tries that tone with me. And that BPD 'familiarity breeds contempt' thing.

My mother is going to a nursing facility for rehab, and she told the nurse/social worker she wanted my brother to help pick the facility she goes to. He sent them a lot of info. on various nursing homes which I supplemented with rating and review info. I looked up. My parents did....nothing. In spite of being told they had a deadline to make a decision by the nurse via my brother who was communicating with her. My brother finally made a decision himself, got the ok from my mother, and told the nurse which facility she wishes to apply to. My mother told me that it's not safe for her to be at home with my dad with all his crap; it's why she's fallen a few times. He's supposed to clean up while she's in rehab. Guess who's supposed to go down there and help/make sure my father does this? 

I wonder if this is it. My parents are really losing it. And what to do about it. Interestingly, I found myself feeling panicky about the nurse/social worker. What must she think of my brother and I? That we're lazy, uncaring, useless? What if she's right? I can feel a shame spiral trying to start, but I've been REALLY working on mindfulness, staying in the present, detaching from my mind and the thoughts it generates. And also trying to practice radical acceptance. Maybe I am shiftless and lazy. Or at least in this instance. I do not want to be responsible for these two people. I don't want to caregive them. Or anyone, really. If that makes me a bad person, so be it. I can at least be honest with myself.

I think this might be pretty rambly. If you read this far, thank you. It's so nice to have a place to dump this craziness out of my head without harming anyone.

DoQ, the Lazy

[WomanInterrupted]

You're NOT shiftless and lazy! 

You live in Reality - like the rest of us - and realize the futility of trying to help in any way, shape or form, and know no good deed goes unpunished. 

You're staying away - that's SMART.  That's *necessary.*  The dreaded STRANGERS need to see and experience just what your parents call "living conditions" and taking care of themselves. 

And believe me - social workers have heard and seen *it all.*  If it's a hoarding situation, they know  there's no reasoning with your father, who might *say* he'll tidy up, but when push  comes to shove, your mom  will probably wind up placed in a nursing home, for her own safety - while  social workers keep an eye on your father, to make sure he doesn't fall through the cracks.

After rehab, they're going to want to make sure your mom goes someplace SAFE - you or your brother could tip off the rehab (which is probably the same nursing home your mom will eventually wind up in) that your father hoards, he won't clean, he doesn't listen, he doesn't care and he's competent, so nobody can force him to do a thing - but your mom won't be  safe there.

The social worker at the rehab will probably call APS - that's *good.*  You want them involved, and feel free to tell them you are NOT a caregiver, nor can you force your dad to do a thing.  If he wants to live in squalor, that's his prerogative - and they might do well to test his competence, just to be sure he can live on his own. 

Once they do a competency test, they'll keep doing them, depending on how badly your dad did - or how badly his other physical issues come into play.

After unNPD Ry had a heart attack, I asked for a competency exam.  He did okay, but his balance issues put him on a bubble - and Ray being Ray, wouldn't use a cane or walker, because they're for OLD people.  (He was 85 at the time.)   

That bubble meant his competence and balance was retested every 2 months.  The man who aced a competency test in November flubbed a few questions in January and *refused* to be retested in March, growling, "They think I'm crazy!"

No Ray - we KNOW you are!  We're just trying to prove it!   

A few days later, he staged a fall and didn't press his Life Alert.  He stayed on the bathroom floor, thinking I'd be dragged over to be his  caregiver - but what actually happened was I told the cops to break in (over the phone),  APS had him removed to the hospital, and Ray was declared incompetent an hour or so later, after trying to snow a shrink with some half-assed confabulated  story.   

If, for some reason, nobody checks out your parents house, your mom will probably go home after rehab - until she needs an ambulance and THEN the hording conditions may be reported.

I'm not sure when it will happen - but it will, eventually - your parents will be forced to live in separately.  Let THEM deal with it and figure it out because this is NOT something you want to get involved in.   

Once your mom is out of the house on a more-or-less permanent basis, that's when your dad's little choo-choo will probably start going off the tracks, because everything he's known for his entire marriage has now changed, and he won't take it well. 

UnBPD Didi died after 60+ years of marriage.  It only took unNPD Ray 2 years and 2 months to be declared incompetent.  He lost his verbal sparring partner, and just completely sprung apart. 

I stayed out of Didi and Ray's messes no matter what was thrown at me - or how many social workers tried to "motivate" me to be Ray's caregiver.   

I refused.  I told them I actually was on their side and wanted Ray in AL, but if I went over there, all I'd be doing was *covering* for him and nobody wanted that.  We had to keep the curtains drawn back on Ray so professionals could see and experience just WTF was going on, before he accidentally killed himself on the basement stairs.

No matter what anybody says or does - stay OUT of it.  Let your parents and their health care providers navigate this quagmire without you.  If your brother wants to involve himself,  that's his business, but I think he's going to realize pretty quickly that he's in WAY over his head.

If he tries to get you to intervene - tell him NO.  Tell *anybody* who tries to get you involved NO, that is NOT possible. 

Tell social workers NO - all you'll be doing is covering for your parents and the truth needs to come out, so they can get the care they actually need, and not the care they've convinced themselves they're going to get from you and your brother.

If social workers get on your case or you just don't like what you're hearing - it's okay to hang up on them and block them. 

Once you mention the word "hoarder" anybody with half a brain is going to understand and realize the best thing you can do is stay away, because you're the LAST person on earth your parents will listen to - and they may even accuse YOU of making the mess.   

Didi and Ray were both hoarders and the only time I got involve was after Didi died.  Ray wanted her stuff gone so he could rehoard the place with his junk. 

You've GOT this, DoQ!   

No matter what anybody says or does or insists or tries to FOG you into - DO NOTHING and brush up on your Medium Chill. 

It'll come in really handy as you deflect  like crazy, staying away from your parents' insanity. 

You CAN do this - I'm living proof of it and I'm nothing big, fancy or special.

I was just REALLY motivated! 

[DreamingofQuiet]

WI,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Thank.You. Did I say thank you? Well, it bears repeating.

One thing I'm worried about is money. I think my mom very much needs to be in AL now, as in permanently. She has Medicare, and my brother said she will get full coverage for several weeks. After that, I'm not sure what happens.

I see that nursing homes require residents pay an astronomical amount up front and then a monthly rental fee on top of that. My father pretty much holds the purse strings. What if he refuses to pay? You may not know the answer to that, I'm just thinking aloud.

When I was talking to him last week, he was telling me how combative she was being in the hospital. He told her that if she didn't stop, he was going to divorce her, which really set her off. Then he tells me he would never actually do that, not because he doesn't really want to, but because it would be too expensive; he'd have to buy her half of their house together "or some shit," as he put it. He's got the house, his hoard and a hoard of money. And I don't think he wants to spend it on care for her.

Maybe it doesn't matter. It's not like I have a say. But I'm anticipating being expected to step in and try to manage things by outsiders as well as my parents. Ugh.

I keep coming back to, "I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it." I guess that needs to be my mantra.

-DoQ-

[WomanInterrupted]

Hi DoQ - you're VERY welcome! 

Your mom is probably in rehab, for the time being - as I mentioned before, it's probably the same nursing home she'll wind up in, but rehab means she's eventually going to go home - or at least, that's the plan.

Medicare and your parents' supplemental insurance will pay for X days of rehab, depending on the diagnosis.  Your mom will probably wind up owing a copay of $25-$50 (or more) a day, which your dad will probably bitch and scream about, claiming your mom can do deep knee bends at home, for free. 

Yeah...there's a LOT more to it than that! 

If your parents have no supplemental insurance - never mind.  They'll owe the balance of what Medicare doesn't pay, and it will be up to your dad to speak to the nursing home's billing office about making payments.  If he doesn't - not your problem. 

If  your mom is permanently in a nursing home, she gets up to 100 days of Medicare coverage.  Medicare determines, based on doctor reports, whether your mom is getting better or has reached a plateau and she's as good as she's going to get.

Once that happens, Medicare no longer pays for the nursing home and your parents' supplemental insurance will be holding the bag - and people will want your dad to apply for Medicaid on your mom's behalf.

I got ahead of myself a bit, but that's how it goes - however, before ANY of that comes into play, the FIRST thing you need to do is look up your state  and find out if they have any filial responsibility laws.

If no?  GREAT! 

If yes - *don't panic!* 

Unless you're obscenely wealthy, the state probably won't come after you for your mom's bills, but they WILL probably send you letters and bills, in the hope that you can convince your dad to apply for Medicaid on your mom's behalf.

Most elderly people don't want to give the state that much personal information and balk.   By involving the adult children, a parent might soften their stance - I wasn't going to give them all that information, but they're threatening my kid with my bills, and that's not fair!

When it comes to PDs, who don't CARE that you're being threatened and might even find it funny or some sort of poetic justice - the state really doesn't have an answer for that BUT an attorney WILL. 

Yes - if you're in a filial responsibility state and you know your dad is going to be like, "Pfffffff!" when it comes to your mom's bills and/or applying for Medicaid, HIRE AN ATTORNEY! 

He or she will probably fire off a couple of letters, protecting your rights (and bank account), but it will be the best money you ever spent. 

I don't live in a filial responsibility state, and for the sake of this next example, we'll say you don't, either.

What do you do when your dad starts complaining about your mom's bills?

1.  NOTHING. 

That's right - not a damned thing.  They are not YOUR bills.

2.  Advise your dad to consult an eldercare attorney for estate planning ( AKA sheltering the assets) AND the Medicaid application. 

This will probably cost your dad at least $16K of his own money ($16.5 in 2016, in my expensivo northeast state) and he won't want to spend it, which is stupid, because spending that money will keep his other money and assets from being swallowed by your state!   

UnNPD was the same way - he hated lawyers and thought them all crooks.  He was convinced his vast wealth (hah!) was going to make me "a rich little girl" when he died.  I'd just have to earn every penny of it, three times over, in my blood, sweat, tears and the complete breakdown of my mental  health. 

But I stayed away and let the wheels fall of Ray's choo-choo, organically.  I didn't do a thing.  He wound up in a memory care unit and I was his POA.  Wise folks told me to get an eldercare attorney, ASAP - and they were right! 

All told, Ray had roughly $160K in assets (including his house, bonds, and life insurance policies).  Instead of letting the state drink that milkshake, I involved "Saul" - the eldercare attorney - and with all the tables and formulae in his mighty brain, he was able to shelter $50K of Ray's assets - that's my inheritance. 

The rest of the assets were liquidated and spent down in an orderly fashion AND Saul was able to prove this to Medicaid.  His office did the application, got it approved when they said they would and none of that nightmare was mine to deal with.  I was able to make it somebody else's problem.   

The only thing I had to do was keep locating statements and bringing them to Saul's office - but if I couldn't find them, that was okay.  He has a team dedicated to finding the obscure.

So...you mention to your dad he'd be wise to get an eldercare attorney - the attorney will handle everything and advise your dad, every step of the way - including telling him what bills to pay and when.

And your dad says, "NO!  All lawyers are cheats and just want to swindle me out of my money!" 

GREAT! 

Block his number and *walk away.*  Let him deal with the nursing home on his own!   If that includes threats of collection or having to find a new place for your mom - that's on HIM, and no, they will NOT just dump her back at his, if the place is a flipping disaster - nor will they dump her on you!

That's illegal and I want it known, far and wide:  Nobody is going to dump her on your doorstep, ring the bell and run away!   

The nursing home may call you, to try to get your help in motivating your dad - tell them the truth.  He's as unreasonable as he is rigid and doesn't seem to understand he's living up to the old chestnut, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Like Ray, he's his own worst enemy and doesn't realize that by doing nothing, he'll lose far more than if he took action and let a lawyer handle everything.

Your dad may demand one of you take care of it - that would mean being your mom's POA.  If you're not comfortable with it that's FINE.  You don't have to do a thing. 

If your brother won't, and your father refuses to do a thing, the nursing home will probably name a guardian  for your mom, or make her a ward of the state.  This will make things easier in regard to doing the Medicaid application and getting approval, but it might not help getting money from your father, and they may wind up attaching liens to his properties, which will probably be satisfied after his death.

Provided there's anything left, of course - when it comes to hoarded properties, there's no telling what's going to happen when the property is emptied.  It may be salvageable, or it may need to be bulldozed. 

But that's a LONG time off.  For now  -is there filial responsibility?  If yes, get a lawyer to protect yourself.  If no, advise your dad to get an eldercare attorney involved and if he won't?

Not your problem.  Not your circus - not your monkeys. 

If you have any other questions or concerns, I'll be more than happy to help, if I can. 

There's nothing quite like putting order to chaos to help you sleep at night! 

[TriedTooHard]

Hello, WI gave great advice - I couldn't have said it better!

I'd like to add that Medicaid has a look back period.  They look to see if any significant sums of money, property, etc were transferred to anyone else for a set period prior to applying for Medicaid.  Anyone who accepted those transfers may be responsible to pay it back, or the person will not get approved for Medicaid.

This is a reality in my FOO right now.  I am in very low contact, and used to hear griping from 1 or 2 siblings about how another 1 or 2 siblings is taking $$$ from uNPDm.  I just shrugged it off  - figuring its their payment for having to put up with what's to come.  Nobody bothers me anymore with that particular gripe.  Now I just need to figure out a way to not hear the other gripes!

[DreamingofQuiet]

WI,

Thank you for all your wisdom. You are a wealth of information and compassion on this subject.

TriedtooHard,

Thank you as well for your input. I had heard something to the effect of this look back issue but couldn't remember exactly what it entailed. Fortunately, my parents have not tried to gift me with large sums of money.

And WI, my state has no filial laws. I checked on that quite some time ago. I was frightened to learn that there even were such things. But no, they do not apply in this case.

So my mother did indeed spend a couple of weeks at the SNF. They sent her home with oxygen and the promise of a home health aide to do PT with her. I believe today was her first day back, and she's already sent my brother and I a lengthy text saying it's not going to work, and she needs to go back to a facility, but some place closer to their house. She's made it clear she wants my brother and I to be invested in the choice of said nursing home and then "we" will need to figure out costs and coverage and a place that do all the things she needs but isn't full of people "over 90..." etc. etc. I don't know who exactly she means by "we," but I can guess.

I guess this is the part where I tell Dad he needs an eldercare attorney?

Oh and of course as we all well know, there's a pandemic going on, and they're both in the high risk bracket. They know it's going on, but I don't think they understand just how serious it is. I've been going back and forth inside myself about whether to go down there and check up on them. But what if I'm infected and don't know it? And then I feel guilty because while I don't want to infect them with Covid, I also just plain don't want to go, period. I don't want them to come to any harm, but I don't want to be responsible for taking care of them.

I am going to call my father tomorrow and get his take on things. My guess is she will have another health crisis and will have to go right back to the hospital.

I am just standing back for the moment, watching all this go down. I know we talk about the shark cage. In this case, I'm in my apartment quarantine zone, and I'm not particularly inclined to leave right now.

Thank you for reading, and hope whoever is reading this that you and yours are staying healthy and safe!

-DoQ-

[startwhereyouare]

DoQ - Bless you. Hope you practice some grounding techniques.Keep your mantra, your grit and whatever else you need for your strength during this time. Those C's are important in every instance when dealing with thought processes that don't conform to the norms. My thoughts and prayers are with you, good vibes your way.

[WomanInterrupted]

Stay in the shark cage...erm...quarantine zone!   

You could be a carrier, so *stay away.*  Let PROFESSIONALS deal with your parents, and that includes health care people to come over and do PT with your mom, check her oxygen tanks and assess the living situation.

If she wants to go back to a facility, that's up to her.  You don't have to be involved or even listen to her bang on about how much she'd rather be  there - or at some mythical, perfect facility that doesn't actually exist.   

I've got bad news for your mom about her rehab/nursing home - since the one she was at  has her financial deets, that's where she's going to wind up, every single time, unless she wants to go through having her finances pored over by a new facility OF HER OWN CHOOSING.

Yeah - HER choosing.  Not yours or  your brothers.  There is no WE in this decision - your mom is trying  to get you involved now, so you feel like you HAVE to be involved.

If she wants to tour a new facility, SHE will have to arrange it, as well as getting there - but I strongly suspect tours are temporarily off the table, for obvious reasons, and no, that doesn't mean you're going to try to help her get around all the Covid 19 precautions.   

See line one:  stay in the shark cage/quarantine zone.     It is *impossible* for you to help her choose another facility.  It's her decision and she'll have to get the financials to them - and please remember, there is no WE in nursing home finances.  Those bills belong to your parents and NOT you.   

Your mom will probably try going from facility to facility in an attempt to get away from those horrible old people AND trying to exploit rides, *MONEY* and all sorts of unnecessary "necessities" out of you.  Please beware of that and *stay away.* 

Ray said the same thing - he was never going to go into a facility because of all the horrible, nasty OLD people - and none were close enough to his house.  Or Catholic enough - even the Catholic facilities.   

I think the ultimate goal of your mom and possibly even Ray, in their no old people/no facility good enough edicts, is to try to wear us down so we give in and say they can live with us and blow through all our own money, with the promise of "one day" getting some amazing inheritance we'll never see. 

My answer to that?  HELL NO!   

I suspect yours is probably the same. 

To answer your question about getting your dad to an eldercare attorney, he can see one any time he wants.     He doesn't have to wait until it's decided your mom is going into a facility and staying there.

Most eldercare attorneys know there's a pretty good chance of that happening for one or both partners, and can handle everything well in advance.   

The only thing you really have to decide is if you *want* to be Power of Attorney for one or both of them, if or when the time comes.

You can say no - it doesn't make you a bad person.  It means you know your limitations and won't be pushed beyond your comfort zone. 

What about your brother in all this?  Well, I'm hoping he follows your example and stays away, but if he doesn't, that's not your problem.  He can give rides, help make decisions, be POA, get cajoled into driving all over the place to run errands or visit and that's HIS business - not yours - and he doesn't get to lord it over you. 

TriedTooHard has a good point about Medicaid, which is why distance is probably your new BFF.   

Medicaid will look back at ALL your parents' finances for the past 5 years.  They'll have to account for every penny spent or coming in and explain it.  If your parents are big on depositing their pension checks, then taking out a big wad of cash every month, they're going to have to show how it all was spent.

THIS is where your father will be SO glad he got an eldercare attorney involved because that application is *brutal* and actually kept me awake at night before I realized "Saul" and his lovely team were on it.  I didn't have to worry - all I had to do was try to put on my thinking cap and explain five years of disordered thinking! 

But Saul had legal remedies for things I couldn't answer or wasn't sure about. 

If your dad is weird about lawyers, you might be best to mention the eldercare attorney will help him keep his home and other assets, while making sure your mom's care is paid for - and it'll be the best money he ever spent.

As for you?

Stay OUT of it.  The only thing I'd do is look up a few attorney's names for him, but that's IT. 

Anything else falls under the heading "Their Stuff" - and that's where it should stay. 

Anything I *wanted* to do by phone is what I would do - and if that includes not a thing, because the emotional hangover is so  severe, then that's what you DO - nothing. 

Your parents made this mess themselves.  They danced their Dysfunctional Dance without a care in the world - well, now is the time they have to clean up the mess they made, or at least see to it and NOT try to unload it on you.

You are not their sounding board, psychiatrist, physical therapist, nurse, doctor, pharmacist, maid, chauffeur, cook, entertainment coordinator, travel facilitator, nursing home tour guide, or BANK.

You are a  human being and need to look after yourself, first and foremost - and that means staying in the shark cage, with your hands and feet inside.   I didn't realize how nicely it doubles as a quarantine zone.