Nice waif wants to know me better

[WinterStar]

So my mom sent an email recently that I didn't see until today. It's long. It outlines her life story of woes. Her dad left. Her mom was depressed. Her grandparents raised her for a couple of years, but then she moved away from them, so that was hard. And her mom remarried and her stepfather adopted her, so that was hard. And her mom was always depressed, so that was hard too.

There are several statements about the importance of grandparents, which I think is hinting that she is important to my kids. She says something about me not really seeing my grandparents often enough to feel close to them, which is completely untrue. I have emotional ties to all my grandparents and had a great time with my great-grandparents too. I am divining that she thinks that the "unimportance" of grandparents in my own life is why I don't value her presence in my kids' lives (I could be wrong but probably am not). Also note, we had been seeing her every couple of months before the shutdown and then, you know, the shutdown happened and it's not back to normal yet. Also also note, that her role as grandparent is the only reason I would see her so often.

Apparently, her biggest regret in life is not taking me to church when I was a child. Then, she lists all the excuses for why that didn't happen, which is what she always does. On the rare occasion where she recognizes she has made a mistake, she's got a list of excuses. She's talked at me about the church thing before. Guess what? I really don't care that she didn't take me to church. Wackiest part is that faith is incredibly important to me because I found it on my own. I go to church all the time. Why is this her biggest regret? Why is she again regretting something that doesn't matter when there are so many other really regrettable things?

She says something about how there's nothing more important in life than meeting people where they're at. Then, she adds something about that she hasn't understood me and didn't previously realize that she didn't understand me and wants to hang out more so she can get to know me. Our relationship matters to her. She wants to work things out.

Guess when she first realized that there were things to work out? When I got boundaries a couple of years ago. I stopped reassuring her that everything was fine, that she tried her best, that the world was cruel to her. I stopped sharing personal information with her because I had finally learned the hard way that she would share everything (and I mean everything) with every person she knows (and sometimes strangers). I started making end times for visits so that I could handle them. And for awhile things were really good. Like, not great, but I was satisfied. Then, I got a weepy call about how our relationship was "off." It's off when it isn't working the way she wants it to.

Ugh. I don't even know. You read more about my nice waif here: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=85936.0.

The main thing that really jumps out at me is that the entire email is about her. Her experiences. Her regrets. Her wants. There isn't a single question. How can you seek to understand someone without asking any questions? She doesn't even take a moment to account for my experience at any point.

Also, weird "coinkidink" here, but my mom's greatest desire is to spend way more time with me. It's a black hole situation. She can never get even close to enough. I have recently realized that my greatest desire in life has been to be understood. It's like I've been walking around saying, "Please understand me!" Except without saying that. I think my mom knows this on a subconscious level. I think my mom is trying to offer to understand me if I will do what she wants. Here's the thing, I don't want her understanding anymore. And I think she knows that subconsciously too. Doesn't really sound like a coincidence then.

So, I'd love to hear how you fine folks would respond to this email. I haven't decided what I'm going to do, but I have a new standing policy of letting at least two weeks pass from the time of the last email before responding. I'd love to hear thoughts as I contemplate my response (or no response maybe, who knows!).

[Psuedonym]

If your mother wanted to get to know you better then she would have started off her email with 'I know because you've told me repeatedly that me dumping all my emotional garbage on you and telling you what a victim I am is upsetting to you, so I'm not going to do that anymore. Also, sorry for all the times I did that in the past. Also, tell me how you are!'

Did she do any of that? Noooooo, of course she didn't. Because she doesn't actually care how you feel.

Exhibit A) She tells you: And her mom was always depressed, so that was hard too. How many times has she told you how depressed she is? Whatever that number is add one more to it because she's doing it again in this email. Does she acknowledge that that's hard on you and unfair? Hell no, she's too busy telling you her tale of woe. Your feelings are unimportant; make her feel better. Now. Because that's your job.

I think your mother wants you to think of her as 'nice' by saying she wants to get to know you better. It's a good way to guilt you into spending more time with her/sharing more info with her. But as you already know, anything and everything you tell her will be used as a source of entertainment or generating more pity for herself if its something she can spin that way. Personally I wouldn't respond to the email at all. You can always play dumb and say you never saw it (which you almost didn't) And if she brings it up again say something like 'everything seems fine to me' and change the subject. As you know, pointing out the truth never goes over well with disordered people. In your case I suspect that you'd get more tears and wailing about how everyone is so awful to her, and who needs more of that?

[WinterStar]

Psuedonym,

You're right. She has never once acknowledged how hard and unfair her poor mental health has been for me. She used to say that she didn't have emotions until my dad left. I wanted to say, "So you admit that you weren't emotionally available until I was an adult? 'Cause that kinda sounds like a hard thing for me, not just you."

I completely hear you on the proposal of silence to this email. This was my initial thought because what could I possibly say? But facing this kind of junk and staying silent is incredibly triggering for me. I was forced to do that for too long.

Right now I'm leaning toward making a reply for me. Where I get to have a voice. And I can say, our number of visits works for me and if you have unresolved issues from your past, maybe you could try a counselor because I'm not qualified to help you with that. Then I just stop replying to both of those topics. The end. She cannot give me tears and wailing anymore because phone calls are out. It's really helped my mental state to know I don't have to listen to hysterics anymore. And hysterics don't quite translate to email. It's a beautiful thing.

Part of her email is clearly aimed at getting me to "resolve" things before she dies. She mentions that she was glad to resolve things with her mom before her mom died. The clear implication being that I will regret it if I don't do that. I just realized today that what I actually would regret is wasting any more time on trying to fix something that isn't fixable. The sunk cost of my time and emotional energy is already gigantic. And I'm not spending any more of my life on it. Well, that's different...

[Spring Butterfly]

Couple thoughts jump out at me. First of all you're in a super good place, or so it sounds, so good for you!

Also, weird "coinkidink" here, but my mom's greatest desire is to spend way more time with me. It's a black hole situation. She can never get even close to enough. I have recently realized that my greatest desire in life has been to be understood. It's like I've been walking around saying, "Please understand me!" Except without saying that. I think my mom knows this on a subconscious level. I think my mom is trying to offer to understand me if I will do what she wants. Here's the thing, I don't want her understanding anymore. And I think she knows that subconsciously too. Doesn't really sound like a coincidence then.

uPDm is really similar and when I was fully enmeshed spent nearly every day of the week with uPDm and enF PLUS text, emails and phone calls. It was an insatiable pit of unending need. That's what happens when they try to stuff you into their endless void because they don't make the effort to fill it themselves from within or take the time and energy needed to heal themselves. They try to make it your job but no human can heal another human, it's just not possible. A doctor can set a bone but your body must do the healing. Emotional wounds are the same.

As in your case I fully understand where uPDm damage comes from and I pity her pain but I cannot fill that void. No human can and she spends her life trying to stuff external things into it when she needs to do the hard work of healing. That's on her.

I share that so you know you're not alone in where you're at on your healing journey.

You're right to fill yourself from within and not repeat the process, to stop looking for understanding from the outside *especially* from a PD person who has no capacity to offer average understanding.

Definitely she's honing in on your need for understanding, holding it out like a carrot in exchange for compliance. You hold true to yourself now that you don't need her understanding. It's super good that you are in that place and can really heal on your own. Have you seen Karyl McBride's book Will I Ever Be Good Enough and especially the part on internal mothering?

[SparkStillLit]

Blech. respond in some bland grey rocky way. Mean old newly LC me would choose that.
Till you guys, I never realized that my mom was a waify enmesher. Reading all your descriptions of this behavior has given me a name for it. Well, definitely a forceful guilt trippy enmesher. MIL is full metal waif.
My MIL might have written such an email, with a little of my mom thrown in (grandparents relationships are the most important! FAAAAAAAmily!!!)
I say, grey rock that shizz. JMO. I'm all on the bandwagon after my mental health just hit the rocks and I got under medical treatment. I mean, just now. It's scary, y'all. These people really ARE toxic. I've never been anything but sunshine and roses, and now a host of things has contributed. I'm kicking what I can to the kerb. Now I'm all zealous about Protect your mental health!!!! Who cares what they think, they SURE don't have your best interests in mind!!!!!
Invading your privacy and telling everyone your biz, too. Yep. My mom. I haven't told her anything important in years. Had to train the kids, because she'd mine them. Had to whiz thru papers, mail, cards if she was stopping by, because she'd riffle through them the moment your back was turned.
My choice is LC. For now.
I'm just meaning to say, I get it. You have to get away. But you wish to respond in some manner. I would pick out some totally unengaging and boring returns, but my mom is like a weasel that way and will latch onto ANYTHING but the grey rockiest of grey rocks and whiz it around and make something out of it.

[Andeza]

However you choose to respond, it's important to realize that the response is unlikely to lead to lasting change. She may step up and be on her best behavior for a while since you've put her on notice that her games aren't working, but that is of course just a ploy to lull you back into your place. The recipient of toxic abuse.

Whatever you decide, we are here to help.

[Call Me Cordelia]

What they said. That's just lovebombing. My MIL tried that tactic too. Actually I find the similarities really striking. I dug up the thread from last summer for you: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=80659.msg698941#msg698941

This is sad and on the other hand I'm so proud of you for all the detachment you've done!

[Thru the Rain]

A year or so ago my uPDM told me I was her best friend. I talk to to this woman a couple times a year, live (intentionally) 1500 miles away and only see her for major family events where I'll have lots of other people as buffer.

The first time she said this, I was completely speechless. So thankfully I said nothing at all. Dead air.

Later I worked up a very blunt response to have ready if she ever brought me that nonsense again. But she never did. Flat silence told her more than words ever could.

She didn't get the gushy lovey "oh you're my BFF too" response she wanted. She would also have been equally happy (maybe even more happy) with me reminding her of just want a lousy mom she was. She wanted to be the center of the conversation, getting my full attention. Instead she got.......nothing. And I never heard about how I'm her best friend ever again.

I've learned silence is a response that works for me. I don't say something I may regret, she can't later twist my words to boo-hoo to anyone and everyone. And it seems to make her stop - until the next dumbfounding thing that comes out of her mouth.

[WinterStar]

Hello Spring Butterfly, Yes, I am in a good place right now, and it was nice that you noticed that. It's a hard place to get to. I did read Will I Ever Be Good Enough and reread the chapter on internal mothering today. Definitely helpful. Thanks!

SparkStillLit, I'm glad you're getting help. You are totally right, these people are incredibly harmful.

Andeza, I'm not expecting lasting change. I have completely given up on her being the mom I need or even want. I do still wish that she will stop dumping her emotional garbage and triangulating me with my brother. I'm going to need to keep working to let those things go too.

Call Me Cordelia, your post gave me a lightbulb moment. I had never put together that my mother is lovebombing. I knew she was manipulative. I recently realized that she says things she knows I want to hear in order to get me to do what she wants. But giving it a name has brought me so much clarity. What she's doing is lovebombing. It's a tactic. It's part of the cycle of abuse.

Thru the Rain, your story gives me a lot to think about. I've been doing silence for a long time. Silence instead of reassurance. Silence when she suggests something I don't want to do (like "working things out"). Even though it feels very similar to the appeasing I had to do when I was growing up, it's not. Restating my boundaries to my mother may show her that I am still affected by what she says. She may like it on some level even if it's not positive. She may "learn" that I make a more involved reply when she sends me a long email about her sad life story and throwing in a line about how important our relationship is to her.

I've laid off of telling my mom to stop dumping her emotional crap. For 15 years, I mostly just say nothing and try to change the subject. She does it less often than she used to, partly because she's not as depressed as she was when my dad left. Is there any point in giving her a "yeah, I know about your sad life history and would rather not hear about it"? It just feels like I should be able to say, "I don't like that." I'm never allowed to say, "I don't like that."

Also, who tells their daughter "I don't think I've ever understood you"? I mean, it's pretty common knowledge that nobody wants to hear that from their mom. And whose fault is it exactly if you haven't taken the care to learn who your child is?

[Psuedonym]

This is all so very familiar.

WinterStar, I think when they say 'I don't think I've ever understood you"? they really mean 'I only really see you as a reflection of me or the support system I want you to be and when you don't behave like that it upsets me and I demand that you explain yourself....so that I can fix it.' Being a different person is not acceptable unless its beneficial to them.

I found that the silence worked well too. Sometimes after endless complaining I didn't react to I would get the incredibly baiting 'Well, I guess you just don't care' and when I reacted by just staring at her and said nothing and let the silence drag out it seemed to really disarm her. Like by refusing to react to it in any way it invalidates the statement as the cheap tactic it is. It makes you wonder sometimes about how aware they are of being manipulative. If they were really distressed this approach wouldn't work, but the 'this is bullshit, we both know it, and i'm not going to dignify that with a response' reaction always seemed the most effective. Honestly I think realizing that they have the emotional maturity of a small child has been most helpful. Any reaction to a small child's bad behavior is seen as a reward. The best thing to do is not to react at all.  But there it is.

[moglow]

Okay I'll play:

"...blah blah blah yet again how awful my life has been blah blah. Children need their grandparents blah. I want to get to know you blah blah..." And yet she didn't ask about your life, what you and the grands are up to? Not that you'd give her details but see where I'm going here - she's so intent on excusing herself and her choices *yet again* that she missed the supposed point of her own email. It wasn't about you or wanting a relationship with you, it was her dumping ground. Again.

It almost begs a response along the lines of [and yes this is based on my own similar bouts with mommie dearest, so please bear with me while I rant] "You say you want this relationship with me, want to know and understand me - yet you have not one question about me and my family. No indication that you're interested in anything more than a sounding board for another recitation of your life's woes. We've been there done that with you, many times now. That's what got us where we are, so no thank you. I'm sorry for all you've been through but it doesn't change anything for me or my family. We choose no, much as you did many years ago. No further discussion is needed." Yeah, I know that wont likely translate well for her but seriously. What does she honestly expect? Never mind, rhetorical question!


You chose to change your role, and GOOD FOR YOU!! Would that I had done the same decades ago. Mine still drags out the same tired, sad excuses after being told specifically that certain subjects are off the table. There they are again - Next! Move on or go away. I'm so sick of hearing it. No recognition that we truly can't change the past, so put it down already. Nope. She has to blame someone.
I feel for you, truly I do. I doubt seriously anything you say would get through to her abd that's sad. All you really can do is hold tight to your boundaries and refuse to engage the crazy tangents.

We're here with you.

[moglow]

I reread my response and realized what a toad I sounded like! I'm not as bitter and spiteful as that sounds, just sharing from my own perspective.  I'm burned out with the pity parties and recitations of a life gone wrong, blaming others for poor choices of her own making. Honestly it ticks me off for you - she's asking to get to know you. Read that again. Why is it that you've reached adulthood and become a parent yourself, yet she doesn't know you?? How does that happen? Because of her choices. Because she's shown she's incapable of basic good manners and decency. Because she hasn't the God-given common sense to keep personal information of others to herself. Because she's so caught up in her bubble she's made herself incapable of puncturing it to reach out to others.

I could [and probably have over the years] have written much of what you did, and in much the same way. It's wearing - happy occasions that are overshadowed by that dark cloud of her self-imposed gloom. Taking the focus off celebrations and excitement of others, just to be repackaged to her "liking."

[Hepatica]

For what it's worth moglow, when someone gets ticked off on my behalf, esp. with regard to my struggle with the FOO, I count myself lucky. It's hard to carry it all alone.

And re: anger (even bitterness) they can be great energizers to finally get the courage to set those boundaries.

And.....  I am learning from this how much to share and for how long with my husband, about my awful childhood, and when to zip it and learn to manage my own feelings. I am sure he has compassion fatigue at this point. Poor guy. 

[Fiasco]

Only thing I have to add to the already great responses is she regrets not taking you to church precisely because it's important to you. She can't take credit for something you care about, and that probably drives her up a wall.

[WinterStar]

Psuedonym, you are absolutely right that my mother is saying she doesn't understand me because I am malfunctioning. I was working great for so long. Now her reassurance well has dried up. What has happened? She's asking herself, "How do I get the well to provide water again?" So she hopes I will explain what is wrong so that she can make things go back to the way they were. Yes, PDs are emotionally immature. Reading Lindsay Gibson's Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents was a pivotal moment for me. I like that it focuses on their emotional immaturity rather than being a diagnostic guide.

Moglow, I agree with Heptica. The anger on my behalf is appreciated. Growing up I had no one who was angry that I was being mistreated. No one to even notice that I was being mistreated at all. It's part of what takes us all so long to figure out that we were mistreated. You say, "Why is it that you've reached adulthood and become a parent yourself, yet she doesn't know you?? How does that happen? Because of her choices." She said in the email to me that it is my dad's fault because he abused her, and she thought everyone thought alike until after he left... She has a strong need to cast herself as naïve so that things cannot be her fault. Is there a term for that? There must be, right?

Heptica, my husband also has compassion fatigue. He wants me to stop thinking about the past. He thinks the books I read are making things worse, that I'm like my mom in that I cannot let the past go. He doesn't understand that unless I do this healing work, I will become just like my mom. I've had fleas and C-PTSD without understanding what the problem was. The only reason I know this is because of this board and the books people here have recommended. I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and depression 15 years ago, and had several therapists through the years who helped but missed the whole picture. The last therapist tried to help me to see things from my family's perspective so that I could see that they weren't trying to manipulate me. She was supposed to be an expert on anxiety. To be fair to my husband, he has his own FOO fleas and fog. His family is less extreme then mine, which makes it harder to see. My dad is a malignant narcissist/sociopath, and gave me the gift of behaving so terribly that it was very clear I had to get away from him (though my brother still associates with him).

Fiasco, you could be right that my mom recognizes that faith is important to me and that is part of what makes her "regret" not taking me. One piece of this puzzle is that her second husband is very religious. Shortly after they began dating, she converted to his faith and adopted his religious beliefs. She also rewrote history and says she always had a strong faith. How does that match up with the fact that she never took her children to church? Never talked with them about God? She has a list of excuses as to what was wrong with the churches near us growing up. One didn't have an organ! I mean, how can you go to a church without an organ? I have no idea. How that stopped her from talking about God while we were home, she hasn't said. Also note that her current church has no organ, which seems to be proof that you can indeed go to church without an organ.

[Andeza]

Yes, we need a term for the affected naivete. Mine does that too! One does not party hard through the 70s and suddenly become an innocent, childlike, prude beginning with the 80s.

Maybe "affected naivete" is the term we need actually... I'm going digging in the toolbox for this one for a bit.

Also, if I could like Fiasco's comment a million times, I would.

[moglow]

She said in the email to me that it is my dad's fault because he abused her, and she thought everyone thought alike until after he left... She has a strong need to cast herself as naïve so that things cannot be her fault.

WinterStar, mine was fond of saying "we didn't know then what we know now ..." What, you didn't recognize that a screaming child was actually a bad thing?? You thought it was normal that your children avoided you, never questioned why that might be? If it's so "natural" surely there's a progression of thought that points directly at the problematic behavior and you know it needs to change?? I mean, it worked for US. But no, someone else must be blamed, the parent can't possibly accept responsibility for their own behavior - yet we are held accountable for ours. How does that work exactly in a reasonable mind?

One the faith issue - one of mommie dearest's most memorable senseless meltdowns was literally over the fact that I was baptized years ago [as an adult] and it came up in random conversation with her one day. Mother insisted that I had NOT, that if I had she'd have known about it and would have been there!! Um no, I was there and I remember. Not your stuff, not something I felt the need to share [again, history had shown a distinct lack of interest in me and my life in general so no]. I mean, she went on and on about it and dragged one of my brothers into her meltdown as if he were to bear weight on her argument. And why on earth was it hers to argue over in the first place? Another senseless control issue, pure and simple.

[WinterStar]

Maybe "affected naivete" is the term we need actually... I'm going digging in the toolbox for this one for a bit.

Maybe it's part of selective competence? It's also related to self-victimization.

[WinterStar]

One the faith issue - one of mommie dearest's most memorable senseless meltdowns was literally over the fact that I was baptized years ago [as an adult] and it came up in random conversation with her one day. Mother insisted that I had NOT, that if I had she'd have known about it and would have been there!!

They get very used to telling is who we are. And then being confused when they are wrong. But saying you weren't baptized is bizarre!

I had a former boss that I ran into a couple of years after I didn't work for him anymore. We had this conversation:
Boss: You have two children now.
Me: No, still just the one.
Boss: I heard you had two children.
Me: I don't.
Boss: I'm sure you have two children. Are you sure?

Weirdest part is that when he asked me if I was sure, I paused and thought about it for a moment. Like, wait, is he right? Did I have a second child and forget? Crazy, right? I'm sure I did that double-check because my parents were constantly telling me my perceptions, emotions and memories were wrong.