Hes still not happy that my wife hasn't phoned him - LET IT GO

[Poison Ivy]

Examples of "it will never be enough" from my former father-in-law:  1) Their oldest son, my ex-husband, has been his parents' caregiver 24/7 for the past several years. In December 2014, both our adult children were going to be visiting our family home (we were still married then) at the holidays. H told his dad he wanted to come here to see our children.  At that point in the year, H had spent approximately 350 days (and nights) with his parents.  His dad expressed displeasure about H seeing our children and said to him, "You know, your mom is a member of your family, too."
2) At the end of 2016, after our divorce, the adult children were going to be visiting what is now my home.  Ex-H, who had spent approximately 360 days and night with his parents over the course of that year, told his dad he wanted to see our children.  His dad expressed displeasure and said, "You'll have the rest of their lives to spend with them.  I'm going to be dead soon." Let it be stated for the record that former FIL is still alive, age 93.

[Adrianna]

P123 I'm glad you found this forum. Really glad. Because people who haven't been raised by a pd parent have absolutely no idea what we go through.

I can do relate to what you are saying. He's old, you think you're being too sensitive, what if it's dementia (easy, have him evaluated.) You're a people pleaser, of course, you were groomed to be one, like so many of us. I was taught it's my responsibility to make her happy. I was her emotional dumping ground for well over a decade.  Many adult children of narcissists suffer from from depression and anxiety. If you really get to the heart of the matter, what we have all been taught, through the constant guilt trips and demands is:

We're not good enough.

It's a lie. We are good enough, in fact, it's often the kindest who get exploited by them. They know you have empathy and they take full advantage of it. You will feel guilt because you want to do the right thing. If the tables are turned and someone told them THEY didn't do enough for someone, I can almost guarantee you they would be unaffected. Guilt trips do not work on people who lack a fully functioning conscience.

This article may help you. Your personality falls right in line with most who have narcissistic parents.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2016/07/09/how-being-raised-by-a-narcissist-damages-your-life-and-self-esteem/amp/

[Adrianna]

Examples of "it will never be enough" from my former father-in-law:  1) Their oldest son, my ex-husband, has been his parents' caregiver 24/7 for the past several years. In December 2014, both our adult children were going to be visiting our family home (we were still married then) at the holidays. H told his dad he wanted to come here to see our children.  At that point in the year, H had spent approximately 350 days (and nights) with his parents.  His dad expressed displeasure about H seeing our children and said to him, "You know, your mom is a member of your family, too."
2) At the end of 2016, after our divorce, the adult children were going to be visiting what is now my home.  Ex-H, who had spent approximately 360 days and night with his parents over the course of that year, told his dad he wanted to see our children.  His dad expressed displeasure and said, "You'll have the rest of their lives to spend with them.  I'm going to be dead soon." Let it be stated for the record that former FIL is still alive, age 93.

It can't be overstated that these types do tend to live well into their nineties. My grandmother is 97. I know someone whose father was 95 when he died. Another whose father was early nineties. I don't know the reasons for this but it is very odd. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

In literature vampires can be hundreds of years old. It's easy when you have unfettered access to someone else's life force. 

[illogical]

...BUT, heres what goes through my mind:-

1. If put down a few boundaries, but keep him happy the rest of the time, then it'll be manageable.
2. If I escalate things, its going to be a massive fight that is going to be VERY stressful for me. I dread to think to what level he will escalate this.
3. Is he that bad? Or am I being over critical of him and should I be more tolerant of an elderly parent? Is dementia playing a part here? (Im not a religious person really but if he passed away in 6 months time and I'd blocked him for those months, how would I feel for the rest of my life?)

My comments on the above--

1.  What is "manageable"?  It seems to me that you are currently walking on eggshells.  You are being abused by your dad and you never really know for sure what's going to set him off.  So you are currently in a stressed out, drained state.  Meanwhile, in spite of all your efforts, your dad is getting worse.  So you can't really say that anything you've done has improved the situation. 

You are "rationalizing" enabling your father by telling yourself that "he's your Dad" so it's okay to let him abuse you.  And speaking of YOU, what about you?  You are ignoring your needs in favor of your Dad, who is a bottomless pit of need and will never give back to you, only take, take, take.

2.  You are predicting an apocalypse if you cross your Dad.  A HELL of epic proportions.  As such, you are not allowing yourself to believe there is any way out of this problem.  So you keep doing what you've always done-- enabling your Dad and putting yourself and your needs second to his. 

3.  You are rationalizing enabling your father by telling yourself "he's old" and "may not be around that much longer".  You believe it's your job to make him happy, and if you neglect this duty for even a short period of time, he might die and you will be left with the legacy of GUILT that will consume you.

There are certain FACTS here that you are ignoring--

*FACT:  You are not "managing" the situation.  You are putting your Dad's needs in front of yours.  You are ignoring your own needs.  You wrongly think that "loving" your Dad means you have to let him abuse you.  Meanwhile, you are not allowing YOU to matter here.  You do matter.  In fact, you matter a great deal.  And you are the only one who can live your life.  You can't live your Dad's life.  You can't make your Dad happy.  That's his job.  But you can live your life and carve out a peaceful life.  That is totally within your power.

*FACT:  Contrary to your believe that you are trapped in this situation, you do have the power to change your life.  You can start emotionally detaching from your dad.  This means not getting caught up in all his drama and the chaos he manufactures.  You can do this emotional detaching with love.  If he wants to go off the rails and into the abyss, you have to let him go.  But you can let him descend into that hell by himself.  You don't have to let him drag you there with him.  As other posters have pointed out, what is the worst that can happen if you start putting up boundaries?  He threatens self-harm?  Call 911 and let the professionals deal with it.  He lands himself in the hospital?  Again, let the professionals deal with it.  You aren't a medical professional.  The most you can do is lend him emotional support, but you don't have to go rushing to his side and hold his hand.  You can attend to his basic needs from afar.  And you can give him emotional support from a safe distance.  So the bottom line here is that your fear of an apocalypse is a FALSE FEAR.

*FACT:  You don't know how much longer your Dad is going to be around.  None of us know how much time we have on this planet.  So start reclaiming your life by shifting the spotlight back on you.  What I'm saying is to tend your own garden.  Don't neglect your own health (both mental and physical) at the expense of your Dad's.  As I stated above, it's not your job to make him happy.  It's not your job to make anyone else happy.  We are each responsible for our own happiness. 

Boundary setting is a process.  But if you will commit to setting just a few boundaries WITH CONSEQUENCES for your Dad disrespecting those boundaries, and FOLLOW THROUGH with those consequences if he tramples your boundaries, you will have begun the process of reclaiming your life.  You've already taken the first step:  Recognizing there is a problem.  But the process will not move forward if you continue to remain "stuck" at "I'm managing this" stage, when you know what you're really doing is "managing" a ticking time-bomb.

[Adrianna]

In literature vampires can be hundreds of years old. It's easy when you have unfettered access to someone else's life force. 

Well they are emotional vampires in a sense. They do feed off our energy.

You know she was in hospital recently and I went to her house to do laundry. I thought I would have still felt lousy over there given it's her house. However, sitting on the porch, it was actually peaceful. Calm. Air felt different. Energy was lighter.

When she got out of rehab, I stayed overnight that first night she was home. She was asleep in bed on the other side of the house as I sat on the porch again that evening. Totally different feeling. Anxious, dread, frustration, discouragement. She wasn't on the porch with me but she was in the house.

I went home following morning with a splitting headache and exhausted.

It was an interesting experience.

[illogical]

One other comment, p123--

Your Dad is capable of way more stuff than he lets on he can do.  You've posted about how he manages to get around with his friends.  But he obviously loves to play The Victim.

My NM's favorite phrase was "I CAN'T!"  I CAN'T, I CAN'T, I CAN'T!!!  It still rings in my head like a bell.

I remember one time when she was being evaluated at hospital and a bad-ass nurse (a take-no-prisoners type of nurse) asked my mother to sit up and swing her legs over the examining table.  My NM was lying down, apparently "helpless".  She said "I CAN'T!!!"  and the nurse said, in an authoritative and commanding voice, "Sure you can!  Sit up and swing your legs over here!"  And my NM complied.  It was just so typical of her playing The Victim.  But when someone challenged her, she complied and proved she could do what she said she could not.

When you let go of enabling your father, you will actually do him a favor.  I know it doesn't seem like that now, but when you refuse to do things for him, he will find a way to do them for himself.  So you are doing him a favor, because you aren't allowing yourself to be his crutch.  You are letting him do things for himself, which he will do, when you stop doing them for him.  And he may still find others to do his bidding, but at least you have given him the opportunity to rise to the occasion.  If he refuses and gets others to do for him, so be it.  At least he's not corralling you.

By letting go and letting him do things for himself, you are allowing him to be independent, rather than dependent on you.  Sure, there may come a time when he can't do for himself, but then you arrange things from a distance and don't get involved.  In the meantime, you wean him off being dependent on you.  He will find a way to get his needs met.  He's not incompetent.  He's proven he's quite capable of doing for himself, he just doesn't want to.  WI has posted about this very extensively, outlining her parents' refusal to do what they can do, and trying to force her into doing whatever it is they want for them.  (This is the way it was for my NM.)  And you have noted that your dad doesn't necessarily need you to do for him, he just wants you to do for him. 

So I would encourage you to wean your dad off that tit.  He needs to do for himself.  But he won't, as long as you step in and do things for him.   

[WomanInterrupted]

You wrote:

1. If put down a few boundaries, but keep him happy the rest of the time, then it'll be manageable.

I agree with Illogical - that's walking on eggshells, trying not to upset the situation or escalate it.  It's not sustainable and won't work as his demands *increase.* 

Then you have to ask yourself how far are you willing to sacrifice yourself and FOC to keep the peace?  There will be no limit to your sacrificing, as your dad keeps taking up more and more of your time.

2. If I escalate things, its going to be a massive fight that is going to be VERY stressful for me. I dread to think to what level he will escalate this.

I'm also a people-pleaser and hate confrontation, but more than that, I hate being BULLIED and treated like shit, by somebody who is supposed to *care* about me, but sure as hell doesn't act like it! 

This is not the same man who raised you - he's OLD.  All he can do is yell, or if he's screaming/raging/guilting you, all it takes is for you to calmly say, "Dad, I'm not putting up with this.  It won't work.  Goodbye." - then end the call and block him. 

You have the ability to stay *calm* - and end the conflict without giving up your ground.  Then make yourself impossible to reach, through blocking his number.

Problem solved.

You only contact him again IF you want to - and it'll probably all be forgotten and swept under the rug, like it never happened - unless you defy him, and THEN he gets the consequence of you hanging up and blocking him again, for a period of time of your choosing.

You've raised kids - you know how to handle temper tantrums.  This really isn't much different.

3. Is he that bad? Or am I being over critical of him and should I be more tolerant of an elderly parent? Is dementia playing a part here? (Im not a religious person really but if he passed away in 6 months time and I'd blocked him for those months, how would I feel for the rest of my life?)

Yes, he is that bad, and NO, you are not being overly-critical of an elderly parent.  He is MORE than that - he's a WAIF and a VICTIM, who also acts like a KING and you must *serve* him.

Okay - hypothetically, let's say you find out your dad just died.

How would you feel?

Be *honest.* There is no judgment here. 

If you said, "Relieved" - you wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last.  I said the same thing about Didi, AND I'd been lowering contact, trying to shake her Waify Highness for *months.*

I was on the verge of going NC with her when she died.  If she hadn't and I'd gone NC  - but she lived for another year or even five - my response would still be, "Relieved."

And yes, you have NO idea how long your dad will live - for some reason, people like him tend to live for freaking *ever* - Ray is 91 now, and I'm surprised he's still alive because it would be easier for me to list what *isn't* wrong with him.

But he's alive - and he's not my problem.  He's getting the care he needs. 

I'll tell you what keeps growing and growing, if you don't address the situation, push your dad's needs back to his side of that table, and make him get more involved in his own life, and seeing to his needs/wants:  your resentment.

It will fester, bubble and ooze, just beneath the surface, until you see his phone number come up and just want to scream, cry, run - or all three.

You need to *DETACH.*   

He is not you, and you are not him.  His needs are not YOUR needs.  His needs (wants) are his ALONE - and for him to solve.  They do NOT involve you.  They are not YOURS.  You are not OBLIGATED to see to him, in any way, shape or form when he's got a mouth, a phone, mobility and *the ability to take care of himself* - especially when it comes to seeing his friends, or walking to the OTB. (Off-track betting, another Americanism.  )

He *can* do a lot more than he lets on - he just doesn't want to do it.  He'd rather fob it off, make others responsible, then sit back and play King/Waif/Victim, where nastier and more verbally cutting and abusive means he'll get what he wants *from you* because he doesn't WANT to do all that stuff!  He'd rather see YOU do it, and make more work for you than necessary, just so you're *paying attention to him.*

Or God forbid, he starts feigning confusion and stupidity - which is what Didi tried.  She claimed she didn't know how to use a phone book, while I just sat here and played Spider Solitaire, replying, "Oh, that's something...well, I don't know what to tell you.  The internet is down." 

I didn't say our internet - I said THE internet, so she wouldn't order me  to drive someplace and use another computer - which would have gotten the response, "I can't do that, and I have to go.  Bye!" - but it just seemed easier to tell her the entire internet was down! 

You have to be able to pick your battles, and you can do that through *detaching.* 

Once you detach, it becomes a *lot* easier to push his problems back to his side of the table, where he can ignore them, solve them himself, or find others to do his bidding - but that's up to *him.*

Once you detach, you won't see yourself as his obligated, indentured *lifeline* - and it's easier to put up healthy boundaries. 

I promise - if, for some reason, you didn't exist, he'd be just fine.

I agree that weaning your dad off the teat  is the best thing you can do for not only yourself - but him.

He won't see it that way, but by making him do more for himself, it'll keep him out of your hair.  He'll be figuring out ways to do for himself, or conning into others to do it for him, and that takes *time.*   



PS - Illogical, isn't it funny how, "I can't!" - goes out the window when challenged?   

[Adrianna]

It still amazes me how we all have similar stories. I had at one point thought I should put the words "I can't" on Nana's headstone when she goes. It's one of her favorite sayings.

Wi is right about the resentment. Boy I can't put into words how much I understand that. At the height of my servitude I am sad to admit I really was not in a good place regarding my feelings for her. I have let that go by reducing contact and not being an audience to her pity parties, but when she ramps up the drama and I'm getting 5 calls a week from various people about her waif antics, I still can struggle with it.  It's not easy. The less I have to do with her the more peaceful I am. Time and time again that's been proven to me. I'm sure everyone on this board can relate. Resentment is a natural reaction to being abused in my opinion. The less abuse you are exposed to, the less you will struggle with it.

Even after all these years though, my stomach still drops when I see her name on my caller id.

[p123]

Not read all the replies yet but something well weird happened today. I must admit I am a little concerned about his mental health....

Anyway, dad is somewhat religious. So he says. Which is where he gets his opinions about gay people (it says in the bible apparently) - not good.
So I phoned him earlier, yes Dad I'll be up to see you (daughter was over her friends house). Then, as he often does he forgets to put the phone down. I heard him say (remember he thought I'd disconnected) "Hes visiting, thank you Lord".

Now is that freaky? As if hes been praying or something for me to visit. I mean, I'm pretty entertaining but hey! :-) FREAKED ME RIGHT. Is he that desperate? (Seems a bit of abuse of power to me too - just to get me to visit lol).

So I get there, his satellite TV (like cable) is off and hes in a right state about it. (Why? its not the end of the world). Apparently been down all day. This sort of seems to have exacerbated things (although he could have phoned me and asked me to phone the company) but it does concern me.

Its not right is it? I'm thinking thats he getting really anxious because I've started to reduce his narc supply a little? Ive not even done that much! But just wow.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Sounds like my NF. He would "pray" in a super manipulative way, "Lord have mercy," as a warning when he was about get abusive if we didn't immediately do what he wanted. And "thank you, Jesus," when we showed signs of getting back in line.

Maybe he "forgot" to put the phone down or maybe not. But being in a state about the tv or other minor things sounds about like standard for your dad. Psychosis as usual.

As far as abuse of his power with the Almighty goes... That's so not how prayer works lol. Even though your dad very well might think that. Jesus taught us to pray, "THY will be done." Just sayin'. 

[WomanInterrupted]

IME, just another trick.  He's pulling them out of the bag and throwing them at you, to see what sticks.   

Advice:  do nothing except ask your wife to do a little digging on who to call if you think an elderly relative is starting to mentally slip gears.  I'm sure she'll be *happy* to get you that information. 

Make the call, and let THEM handle it - while acting totally shocked, when he tells you about those MONSTERS who are trying to take his  house, tell him how to live, and what to do! 

It'll always be the same story - or close to it.  The INVADERS and ENEMIES are at the DOOR and you must SAVE them - nope, don't think so, since I'm the one who called! 

Every time our parents  act out, they get closer and closer to a line they didn't know was there - and once they cross it, there's no return.

Ray found that out.  Your dad may soon find out the same - or find out others are concerned enough about his living situation that he's on a "bubble" - just so he doesn't fall through the cracks.

That's a good place for him. 

Like Ray, he's going to balk at seeming "weak" - Ray also was a manly-man, who couldn't abide by appearing weak to others - especially other men. 

Once your version of APS is involved, it'll be important for you to *stay out of it and let him become their problem.*

Don't do more than you currently do - and if possible, do LESS, to prove the point that he *does* need more help than he'll let on, but only wants YOU to do it.

You'll be entering a world where you have NO idea how many times they've heard that same story.   You're NOT an anomaly - but yet another victim, wanting off the crazy, never-ending merry-go-round that keeps speeding up and trying to steal  your life and all your time. 

If you want your father to get the care he NEEDS instead of what he thinks you OWE him, you might want to consider using this  latest mind-game against him. 

You never know - it might turn out to be one of the smartest moves you've ever made, even though it may not seem like it at the time.

I'm living proof of that. 

[p123]

Sounds like my NF. He would "pray" in a super manipulative way, "Lord have mercy," as a warning when he was about get abusive if we didn't immediately do what he wanted. And "thank you, Jesus," when we showed signs of getting back in line.

Maybe he "forgot" to put the phone down or maybe not. But being in a state about the tv or other minor things sounds about like standard for your dad. Psychosis as usual.

As far as abuse of his power with the Almighty goes... That's so not how prayer works lol. Even though your dad very well might think that. Jesus taught us to pray, "THY will be done." Just sayin'. 

Of course - its hardly the end of the world his TV is not working after all. He was sitting there with his head in his hands saying "why do things always go wrong for me?". Weird or what.... ITs a TV you've not just been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Jeez.

I just ignored him... As usual, he expects the world to stop spinning and everyone else to put their lives on hold to sort his minor issue. Can guarantee he'll call me by 10am today (nope ill ignore im in work) asking if I've spoken to the management company where he lives (they look after tv services). NOPE I said YOU PHONE THEM.

[p123]

One other comment, p123--

Your Dad is capable of way more stuff than he lets on he can do.  You've posted about how he manages to get around with his friends.  But he obviously loves to play The Victim.

My NM's favorite phrase was "I CAN'T!"  I CAN'T, I CAN'T, I CAN'T!!!  It still rings in my head like a bell.

I remember one time when she was being evaluated at hospital and a bad-ass nurse (a take-no-prisoners type of nurse) asked my mother to sit up and swing her legs over the examining table.  My NM was lying down, apparently "helpless".  She said "I CAN'T!!!"  and the nurse said, in an authoritative and commanding voice, "Sure you can!  Sit up and swing your legs over here!"  And my NM complied.  It was just so typical of her playing The Victim.  But when someone challenged her, she complied and proved she could do what she said she could not.

When you let go of enabling your father, you will actually do him a favor.  I know it doesn't seem like that now, but when you refuse to do things for him, he will find a way to do them for himself.  So you are doing him a favor, because you aren't allowing yourself to be his crutch.  You are letting him do things for himself, which he will do, when you stop doing them for him.  And he may still find others to do his bidding, but at least you have given him the opportunity to rise to the occasion.  If he refuses and gets others to do for him, so be it.  At least he's not corralling you.

By letting go and letting him do things for himself, you are allowing him to be independent, rather than dependent on you.  Sure, there may come a time when he can't do for himself, but then you arrange things from a distance and don't get involved.  In the meantime, you wean him off being dependent on you.  He will find a way to get his needs met.  He's not incompetent.  He's proven he's quite capable of doing for himself, he just doesn't want to.  WI has posted about this very extensively, outlining her parents' refusal to do what they can do, and trying to force her into doing whatever it is they want for them.  (This is the way it was for my NM.)  And you have noted that your dad doesn't necessarily need you to do for him, he just wants you to do for him. 

So I would encourage you to wean your dad off that tit.  He needs to do for himself.  But he won't, as long as you step in and do things for him.   

Oh yes spot on. He can do loads he just chooses not to. His latest is "can you phone x for me?". I told him NO yesterday. His excuse - I can't hear on the phone. Yes Dad thats because you cannot be bothered to go and sort your hearing aid out that doesn't work properly.

Victory for me yesterday on this at least.

[p123]

Thanks WI/Illogical once again.

Part of the problem I found yesterday was its impossible to argue with him. He just won't. He'll do something, I'll tell him to cut it out and he'll back down. I think hes clever - he knows he needs to keep me onside.

Its like the thing with my wife and my brother over the summer. He knew he screwed up but he refused to argue about. (Which reminded me yesterday, he had this "issue" last week about her not calling on his birthday yet over the summer all he told me was "apologise to your wife for me". Yeh double standards here).

If Dad passed away today, I'd be a little sad but VERY relieved. More relieved that he didnt get older and worse. Its sad.

Yes I need to find out. That'll shock him.

I've decided, if he ever tries the "Im going to end it" rubbish, first thing I'll be doing is calling 999 for an ambulance. (yeh we got a proper emergency number in the UK!). Then he can deal with the fallout.

p.s. What do you call the place where you go to place bets on sporting events etc? We call this a "betting shop". (But then don't you call places where you get you're repaired a "shop"? Nah that's wrong- a shop is what you'c call a store in the uk).

[Adrianna]

Regarding the suicide threats, nana used to do those not very often but often enough, usually as a way to keep me in line, if I asserted a boundary, or if she didn't think she was getting enough attention, or if I was getting out of line not serving her enough. Looking back I should have called the ambulance and had them take her in to hospital. It would have put a stop to them earlier.

She still does them occasionally but knows how they don't affect me anymore. I think the last time she said it I just responded "you won't."  She had told me before she'd never do it since she's not interested in an eternal pit of fire. That's why in her case I know it's manipulation, plus I had her evaluated psychologically at one of her ER visits and she passed. If someone has been wanting to die and threatening suicide for ten years it's a pattern.

If anyone starts threatening suicide, report it. Always. Right from the start. In my case I should have done that because she would have stopped them (as a manipulation tactic) earlier.

[Adrianna]

One other comment, p123--

Your Dad is capable of way more stuff than he lets on he can do.  You've posted about how he manages to get around with his friends.  But he obviously loves to play The Victim.

My NM's favorite phrase was "I CAN'T!"  I CAN'T, I CAN'T, I CAN'T!!!  It still rings in my head like a bell.

I remember one time when she was being evaluated at hospital and a bad-ass nurse (a take-no-prisoners type of nurse) asked my mother to sit up and swing her legs over the examining table.  My NM was lying down, apparently "helpless".  She said "I CAN'T!!!"  and the nurse said, in an authoritative and commanding voice, "Sure you can!  Sit up and swing your legs over here!"  And my NM complied.  It was just so typical of her playing The Victim.  But when someone challenged her, she complied and proved she could do what she said she could not.

When you let go of enabling your father, you will actually do him a favor.  I know it doesn't seem like that now, but when you refuse to do things for him, he will find a way to do them for himself.  So you are doing him a favor, because you aren't allowing yourself to be his crutch.  You are letting him do things for himself, which he will do, when you stop doing them for him.  And he may still find others to do his bidding, but at least you have given him the opportunity to rise to the occasion.  If he refuses and gets others to do for him, so be it.  At least he's not corralling you.

By letting go and letting him do things for himself, you are allowing him to be independent, rather than dependent on you.  Sure, there may come a time when he can't do for himself, but then you arrange things from a distance and don't get involved.  In the meantime, you wean him off being dependent on you.  He will find a way to get his needs met.  He's not incompetent.  He's proven he's quite capable of doing for himself, he just doesn't want to.  WI has posted about this very extensively, outlining her parents' refusal to do what they can do, and trying to force her into doing whatever it is they want for them.  (This is the way it was for my NM.)  And you have noted that your dad doesn't necessarily need you to do for him, he just wants you to do for him. 

So I would encourage you to wean your dad off that tit.  He needs to do for himself.  But he won't, as long as you step in and do things for him.   

Oh yes spot on. He can do loads he just chooses not to. His latest is "can you phone x for me?". I told him NO yesterday. His excuse - I can't hear on the phone. Yes Dad thats because you cannot be bothered to go and sort your hearing aid out that doesn't work properly.

Victory for me yesterday on this at least.

It can't be overstated that they LOVE BEING SERVED. It's all about what you can do for them. I think it's the only joy they have in their lives.

Even now nana will act helpless to get me to do things for her. Now I'm at the point where I ignore the requests which pisses her off. Once in a while I do give in to some trivial request to keep her quiet and keep the peace but I know that's enabling the behavior and not helpful.  I don't appreciate being manipulated. 

I had a rough day yesterday with her. Heads up once he gets super old the verbal abuse increases. She immediately started whining she couldn't sleep the night before. I asked how come? She said "don't ask stupid questions." I should have walked. Instead I stayed then had to leave to visit my farther. His friend had just called saying there was an urgent medical issue with him (he's in rehab). Of course there wasn't. Was a short visit. I can hardly be around my father at all. Since he's made his mother my responsibility he gets not much from me. I have nothing left to give him apart from making sure he's ok from afar and staying away from him.  I found out from someone yesterday at rehab he's being manipulative, demanding (she said people in nursing homes don't behave like that!) and likes to "joke" with people which is really him insulting them or being mean. I avoid him as much as possible.

Oh and when I got home from the rehab place I had three whining messages from nana saying she's sooo lonely, she needs me to come over to plug something in for her which she unplugged and she can't seeeee you know so I need to run down and do it for her. One of the messages she actually said :

"I thought you loved me but you just drove away and left me here alone" or something similar. On top of the narcissistic traits she had borderline personality traits as well and fears abandonment.  She knew I was going to see my father but she wanted the attention on her.

You know what I did regarding those messages? Nothing. No call back. Her neighbor ended up going over and in her last message she said "you don't need to run down now." Guess what? Wasn't going to anyway. She sometimes will try to find a reason to get me back there a second time. All kinds of excuses

I need this prescription, nope you have a full bottle
I spilled my pills all over the place and don't know what's what, nope they were all in the bottles
Something exploded in microwave, nope
My tv doesn't work, not my issue

I wouldn't be surprised if she pulls another stunt soon for the hospital hoping to get an actual room to be admitted where people will wait on her. There's seriously where we're at now with this at 97. It only gets worse.

[lkdrymom]

One other comment, p123--

Your Dad is capable of way more stuff than he lets on he can do.  You've posted about how he manages to get around with his friends.  But he obviously loves to play The Victim.

My NM's favorite phrase was "I CAN'T!"  I CAN'T, I CAN'T, I CAN'T!!!  It still rings in my head like a bell.

I remember one time when she was being evaluated at hospital and a bad-ass nurse (a take-no-prisoners type of nurse) asked my mother to sit up and swing her legs over the examining table.  My NM was lying down, apparently "helpless".  She said "I CAN'T!!!"  and the nurse said, in an authoritative and commanding voice, "Sure you can!  Sit up and swing your legs over here!"  And my NM complied.  It was just so typical of her playing The Victim.  But when someone challenged her, she complied and proved she could do what she said she could not.

When you let go of enabling your father, you will actually do him a favor.  I know it doesn't seem like that now, but when you refuse to do things for him, he will find a way to do them for himself.  So you are doing him a favor, because you aren't allowing yourself to be his crutch.  You are letting him do things for himself, which he will do, when you stop doing them for him.  And he may still find others to do his bidding, but at least you have given him the opportunity to rise to the occasion.  If he refuses and gets others to do for him, so be it.  At least he's not corralling you.

By letting go and letting him do things for himself, you are allowing him to be independent, rather than dependent on you.  Sure, there may come a time when he can't do for himself, but then you arrange things from a distance and don't get involved.  In the meantime, you wean him off being dependent on you.  He will find a way to get his needs met.  He's not incompetent.  He's proven he's quite capable of doing for himself, he just doesn't want to.  WI has posted about this very extensively, outlining her parents' refusal to do what they can do, and trying to force her into doing whatever it is they want for them.  (This is the way it was for my NM.)  And you have noted that your dad doesn't necessarily need you to do for him, he just wants you to do for him. 

So I would encourage you to wean your dad off that tit.  He needs to do for himself.  But he won't, as long as you step in and do things for him.   

Oh yes spot on. He can do loads he just chooses not to. His latest is "can you phone x for me?". I told him NO yesterday. His excuse - I can't hear on the phone. Yes Dad thats because you cannot be bothered to go and sort your hearing aid out that doesn't work properly.

Victory for me yesterday on this at least.

My father pulled the same thing.  I took off work several times to get him set up with hearing aids then he refused to take them. (I am convinced he only went along so he would have some outings to a doctors office)  I told him if he refused I was not going to be his ears and he said he understood. Less than a week later he calls me to tell me to call someone else as "he can't hear".  Took me 20 minutes of arguing that his hearing was no longer my problem.  I would get calls to leave work immediately as his tv wasn't working.  Now he did have another in his bedroom.  He kept screwing up his remote and expected me to leave work to fix it.  I wrote down how to reprogram it but he just didn't want to be bothered.  That is the problem in a nutshell.  I doubt any of us have an issue with helping them with something they truly can't do.....it is the expectation of doing things for them that they just don't FEEL like doing for themselves that gets to all of us.

[p123]

Regarding the suicide threats, nana used to do those not very often but often enough, usually as a way to keep me in line, if I asserted a boundary, or if she didn't think she was getting enough attention, or if I was getting out of line not serving her enough. Looking back I should have called the ambulance and had them take her in to hospital. It would have put a stop to them earlier.

She still does them occasionally but knows how they don't affect me anymore. I think the last time she said it I just responded "you won't."  She had told me before she'd never do it since she's not interested in an eternal pit of fire. That's why in her case I know it's manipulation, plus I had her evaluated psychologically at one of her ER visits and she passed. If someone has been wanting to die and threatening suicide for ten years it's a pattern.

If anyone starts threatening suicide, report it. Always. Right from the start. In my case I should have done that because she would have stopped them (as a manipulation tactic) earlier.

Oh he will threaten this at some point I know. Yes I WILL be getting him admitted to hospital. It will be fun to see how that works out for him

[p123]

One other comment, p123--

Your Dad is capable of way more stuff than he lets on he can do.  You've posted about how he manages to get around with his friends.  But he obviously loves to play The Victim.

My NM's favorite phrase was "I CAN'T!"  I CAN'T, I CAN'T, I CAN'T!!!  It still rings in my head like a bell.

I remember one time when she was being evaluated at hospital and a bad-ass nurse (a take-no-prisoners type of nurse) asked my mother to sit up and swing her legs over the examining table.  My NM was lying down, apparently "helpless".  She said "I CAN'T!!!"  and the nurse said, in an authoritative and commanding voice, "Sure you can!  Sit up and swing your legs over here!"  And my NM complied.  It was just so typical of her playing The Victim.  But when someone challenged her, she complied and proved she could do what she said she could not.

When you let go of enabling your father, you will actually do him a favor.  I know it doesn't seem like that now, but when you refuse to do things for him, he will find a way to do them for himself.  So you are doing him a favor, because you aren't allowing yourself to be his crutch.  You are letting him do things for himself, which he will do, when you stop doing them for him.  And he may still find others to do his bidding, but at least you have given him the opportunity to rise to the occasion.  If he refuses and gets others to do for him, so be it.  At least he's not corralling you.

By letting go and letting him do things for himself, you are allowing him to be independent, rather than dependent on you.  Sure, there may come a time when he can't do for himself, but then you arrange things from a distance and don't get involved.  In the meantime, you wean him off being dependent on you.  He will find a way to get his needs met.  He's not incompetent.  He's proven he's quite capable of doing for himself, he just doesn't want to.  WI has posted about this very extensively, outlining her parents' refusal to do what they can do, and trying to force her into doing whatever it is they want for them.  (This is the way it was for my NM.)  And you have noted that your dad doesn't necessarily need you to do for him, he just wants you to do for him. 

So I would encourage you to wean your dad off that tit.  He needs to do for himself.  But he won't, as long as you step in and do things for him.   

Oh yes spot on. He can do loads he just chooses not to. His latest is "can you phone x for me?". I told him NO yesterday. His excuse - I can't hear on the phone. Yes Dad thats because you cannot be bothered to go and sort your hearing aid out that doesn't work properly.

Victory for me yesterday on this at least.

It can't be overstated that they LOVE BEING SERVED. It's all about what you can do for them. I think it's the only joy they have in their lives.

Even now nana will act helpless to get me to do things for her. Now I'm at the point where I ignore the requests which pisses her off. Once in a while I do give in to some trivial request to keep her quiet and keep the peace but I know that's enabling the behavior and not helpful.  I don't appreciate being manipulated. 

I had a rough day yesterday with her. Heads up once he gets super old the verbal abuse increases. She immediately started whining she couldn't sleep the night before. I asked how come? She said "don't ask stupid questions." I should have walked. Instead I stayed then had to leave to visit my farther. His friend had just called saying there was an urgent medical issue with him (he's in rehab). Of course there wasn't. Was a short visit. I can hardly be around my father at all. Since he's made his mother my responsibility he gets not much from me. I have nothing left to give him apart from making sure he's ok from afar and staying away from him.  I found out from someone yesterday at rehab he's being manipulative, demanding (she said people in nursing homes don't behave like that!) and likes to "joke" with people which is really him insulting them or being mean. I avoid him as much as possible.

Oh and when I got home from the rehab place I had three whining messages from nana saying she's sooo lonely, she needs me to come over to plug something in for her which she unplugged and she can't seeeee you know so I need to run down and do it for her. One of the messages she actually said :

"I thought you loved me but you just drove away and left me here alone" or something similar. On top of the narcissistic traits she had borderline personality traits as well and fears abandonment.  She knew I was going to see my father but she wanted the attention on her.

You know what I did regarding those messages? Nothing. No call back. Her neighbor ended up going over and in her last message she said "you don't need to run down now." Guess what? Wasn't going to anyway. She sometimes will try to find a reason to get me back there a second time. All kinds of excuses

I need this prescription, nope you have a full bottle
I spilled my pills all over the place and don't know what's what, nope they were all in the bottles
Something exploded in microwave, nope
My tv doesn't work, not my issue

I wouldn't be surprised if she pulls another stunt soon for the hospital hoping to get an actual room to be admitted where people will wait on her. There's seriously where we're at now with this at 97. It only gets worse.

Yep éxactly like me. I get "I thought you would have visited this weekend", "I've not see a soul for days".

Remember I posted about the wheelchair visit. (where he insisted he needed his wheelchair out of my car because he needed to use it). He'd wanted me to visit all week so he did this - even though he knew I'd been in the office since something like 4am that morning. Never forgive that.. (He didnt use the wheelchair after - changed his mind)