Out of the FOG

It's been over a year since my last post.  Some days I really wonder if I'm getting better.  Other days I know I am.

I tried online therapy but it didn't help a whole lot.  I told the therapist that I wanted to get better and needed to be pushed.  I easily shared everything with her.  All my insecurities, efforts, admissions.  I dumped it all out and she was positive and encouraging as she learned about me.  But she didn't give me any real insight or instruction.  I liked the idea of someone "hearing" me but I didn't feel I was making any real progress.  Plus I had to pay for it.  So I finished they program and I stopped.  I've continued to read different topics online.  I've listened to podcasts and found meaningful insights.  I'm trying.

You know how you come to that realization that if you have a problem with everyone then YOU might be the problem?  I reached that conclusion already and have worked hard to change.  To make myself behave how I thought I was "supposed" to be.  I forced myself to be strong, to push myself to be more assertive.  Less judgemental.  More positive.  The one thing I didn't really consider honoring was my natural inclination.  I'm not pushy, social or assertive. 

Example.  I have a terrible time with a group of which I was a board member.  Lots of older crotchety folks on the board.  One in particular was extremely offensive.  A few of the younger ones are sort of on the path to becoming the older crotchety ones.  I committed to this group because I care about the cause.  So I put up with it all and hated it.  For three years I felt like a failure that I couldn't efficiently discard these people's attitudes.  I was always upset.  I would resent the obligations that I needed to fulfil.  I'm terrible at fundraising and that is what I ended up having to do the most.  And every. damn. time.  I had to attend an event I would stress and dread.  I would feel terrible and weak any time I had interactions.  Finally my obligation ended and I opted to not renew my term.  I was relieved of certain tasks.  I felt so much better that I decided I could still continue to participate with a few different sort of responsibilities within the group.  And then I soon realized that only three of those obligations worked for me.  Then slowly one of those things was tarnished by the biggest Bee-itch in the group.

This all made me feel terrible.  I couldn't even "XYZ" without having a problem.  I'm pathetic.  Can't even do the bare minimum while everyone else just get's on with it.  No wonder I can't do most of the things in my life.  It's me.  I'm the problem and I'll never figure it out.

So finally I gave us the things I thought I needed to do and limited myself to do only two things for this organization.  Both which can be done on my own time, on my own schedule and mostly by myself.  This is my happy place.  THIS is how I can contribute.  I'm NOT a loser.  I still interact with people.  In fact, one task I have great joy interacting with others.  I keep deadlines.  I am able to donate and contribute in substantial ways both personally and financially.

I need to accept that I can't fully participate in this group because I need to stay away from difficult people with negative attitudes.  The old me would have thrived on the challenge to please others.  The old me would have loved the drama of the Bee-itch.  I would have feel amazing being a part of the people who banded together against her.

I no longer enjoy rolling my eyes.  But walking away from everything I have ever know seems to be a mistake, a failure, and a rejection of others.

When I force myself to fit into a group of people I do not understand, enjoy or appreciate I feel like a failure. 

When I am quiet, on my own and in a positive place I can do amazing things for myself and others. 

The solution is to find the places that bring me peace.  So many places don't.

I spent so many years blaming others for being mean, inconsiderate and jerky.  I thought I was perfect.  Then I spent several years considering that I was the terrible one and everyone else is normal.  I'm finally realizing that it's a mix and a balance.  Maybe some organizations ARE tainted and terrible and I just don't have the personality to succeed?  Maybe some organizations are fine and I'm just not a good fit and I don't handle it well?  And finally there are some organizations that suit me and are full of people that are great.

Maybe I am finding myself in so many bad situations because I put myself in them time and again.  Now that I'm awake -  I don't have a clue how to move forward because I still want to "win" all these cases.  I want to "win" by changing the organization to a positive fun group of people.  I want to "win" by being friends with all my sister in laws (even though they have no interest).  I want to "win" by being popular with my peers in my professional arena.  I want to "win" by doing my regular work as well as supporting a bunch of other people who use my office.

In my head I am "losing" in so many ways.  And I'm not seeing that the lose of some of these duties and relationships are actually a win.

I recently saw a video of a guy who desperately needed to lose weight.  It was a real medical crisis and the guy has done every possible to help himself.  He finally gave up and moved away from his regular life to a remote part of the world.  Away from habits, dangerous foods, people.  He walked, reflected, appreciated his surroundings.  And he thrived and changed his health before he moved back to claim his life.

I can't do this.  I want to but I can't.  But maybe I can do something similar to stop things in it's track and free up my mind to begin again.

Thanks for sharing so deeply and honestly, HS.  I agree.  Just like families there are some organizations that run on a dysfunctional system and attract members who live and relate like that.  It sounds like you are becoming kinder to yourself, which is wonderful.    it reminds me of a quote I came across: 

"The one thing you can control is how you treat yourself. And that one thing can change everything."

I don't think it's unusual to find yourself not gelling with various groups, especially when you're not 20 YO anymore.   I hope you find one that gives you a sense of belonging.

As far as self-improvement stuff, I always like the reminders "baby steps" and "easy does it."   Being harsh isn't necessary
   

Quote from: Lookin 2 B Free on November 25, 2022, 09:29:57 PM
"The one thing you can control is how you treat yourself. And that one thing can change everything."

As far as self-improvement stuff, I always like the reminders "baby steps" and "easy does it."   Being harsh isn't necessary

Thank you for this.  I feel like I have been taking baby steps for years.  I've been trying new things and none of it seems to be the right direction.  I'm getting confused by the baby steps in addition to the new things.
So now I'm thinking I need to just STOP everything I can - and breathe - before moving forward.  But I have built a complicated life of relationships, obligations and financial reasons why I can't seem to stop.

I've always wanted to have an antique store in a little touristy area.  I had it all mapped out in my head how I'd run it.  I never took the plunge.  Recently I rented a tiny little cubby in a popular antique shop I admire.  I always enjoyed shopping there.  So I gave it a shot and I love it.  And I'm good at it!    When I am at a thrift store and purchase something that I know is good I get excited.  When I look at my cart and see that, without even trying, I purchased a perfectly coordinated collection of lovely things I feel impressed with myself.  It's a bit of a thrill to see what I've done without even trying.  Sometimes I add my own twist to an item.  Maybe a ribbon or a piece of my own art.  And THEN - when it sells - it's just an amazing feeling.  I was right!  It WAS good.  I haven't felt that way in a long time.

Given the rest of my life, I don't have time for this new venture.  But I seem to be making time.  And loving it.  I can't do it full time - yet.  I can't abandon my real work but I see a path to a new place.  I feel a new life brewing.  I feel a bit of hope that I can transition to something better - even if I have to shut down a lot of my old life to do it.

Today I am unapologetically saying "no" to a popular college football game.  The rest of my in laws are excited. But I don't care.  I'm going to work on my own stuff while my husband enjoys himself.  I don't care if they think I'm lame or boring.  I used to care a lot.

Later tonight there is a HUGE high school game that a nephew is playing in.  His mother is my difficult sister in law.  I struggle with her a lot because she is manipulative and a true PD person.  The old me would have made time later tonight to dress warm and attend this game in support of HER.  Not the kid - her.  I briefly felt guilty because I did not attend last week.  And she pulled the strings with grand group texts about how much she appreciated those that DID attended.  She raved about how great the family support was.  The old me would have been there, trying to get credit for the effort.  Hoping she'd be happy to share that proud moment with me.  Wanting her to post a picture of us on social media.  I would have wanted all that.

Then I remembered all the (many) times she actively did not include me in her children's lives.  Or when she did, she did it in a passive aggressive way that showed me where she valued me in her life.  I have also learned over the years that while I may love and enjoy my nieces and nephews - they don't really think about me a whole lot.  Maybe that kid would have appreciated me attending the game but he certainly isn't missing me and he isn't lacking any sort of support.

So I plan to congratulate both the kid and his parents when I see them at the Christmas party.  I will acknowledge that she should be very proud.  I will even gush a little before I retreat back to my grey rock.  But I'm not going to take the bait when she talks about those who DID support her.  I don't need to worry about losing value of a relationship that has none.  I may have to spend a little time watching her with the people she DOES value but I don't need to feel sad or longing about the fact that I don't make the cut.

What an inspiring post!  I'm so happy for your wonderful changes!   I think aligning our time and effort with our heartfelt priorities is so important. 

Joy is a powerful kind of feedback.  Why would you not take time for something that brings you joy?

And why would you take time to be guilted and manipulated into something that isn't important and you don't want to do?  Bravo for being true to yourself!

It sounds like you have gained a lot of self trust over time.  What a wonderful gift!  Congratulations!

Quote from: Lookin 2 B Free on November 26, 2022, 11:40:34 PM
What an inspiring post!  I'm so happy for your wonderful changes!   I think aligning our time and effort with our heartfelt priorities is so important. 

Joy is a powerful kind of feedback.  Why would you not take time for something that brings you joy?

And why would you take time to be guilted and manipulated into something that isn't important and you don't want to do?  Bravo for being true to yourself!

It sounds like you have gained a lot of self trust over time.  What a wonderful gift!  Congratulations!

:yeahthat: +1

SoT

Thanks for the kind comments. 

I left for a two day road trip with my husband.  It was a lovely, relaxing, fun time. 

I was surprised how often I thought of his family and how much they bother me.   We weren't even talking about them but here and there - when we weren't chatting - I'd be thinking of them.  Walking through a beautiful nature preserve, I'd think about how I was NOT going to post any photos in the family chat.  While waiting for our meal to arrive, I thought about how Thanksgiving with them was okay but I started ruminated on Christmas and how it might go. 

We have construction starting at our home and I just imagined how funny it will be when the Christmas party rolls around how we'd be able to casually mention that the building was almost done.  And how surprised and maybe impressed they would be.  Then maybe they'd finally realize that we are important too.

I KNOW that this sort of thinking is unhealthy.  We have a long history of his family disregarding us.  When we have difficult times they pretend it's not a big deal.  For instance, we had a barn fire and lost a LOT of stuff we had in storage.  My husband lost almost all of his business equipment.  "Oh well, it's only stuff.  At least your house is okay." 

Awhile ago, my husband was sick for the better part of the year.  It ended up being a rare parasite and once discovered it was easily treated.  But his health was seriously in danger as well as his employment, due to his absences.  "Oh well, at least you know it's not cancer."  When a rare, well-meaning family members would ask about things we'd notice eye rolls from many others and they would start leaving the room.

So of course we'd think that there was a problem with us. Maybe we were too needy.  Maybe we played the victim.  Maybe we were weak and pathetic and they were just "done" hearing our sob story.  So we'd downplay our struggles.  Or not mention them at all.  We made concentrated efforts to ask all these people what is going on in their lives and we'd congratulate or commiserate accordingly.  It didn't make a difference.

But none of it has given us any indication that they really understand, value or care about us.  We watch pairs of them band together to help each other with much smaller trials.  And we're scratching our heads.  Just recently, one of them (one of the better ones) received a cancer diagnosis and it's scary.  It's better now but no one is comfortable.  Everyone is going nuts with their support, prayers, gifts and love.  We've personally spent over $500 in tokens and efforts of support.  Others have given much more. 

I'm not proud to admit that it gives me conflicted feelings.  Why?  Why didn't anyone give a crap about us when we had serious problems?  Did the WHOLE house have to burn down before we received support?  Even then they would probably say, "well you have insurance and no one was hurt, so . . .".

I KNOW there is a difference between my husbands past health issues and his brothers very grim diagnosis.  I KNOW that.  And I feel like a shit every time these feelings of hurt and jealously creeps into my head.  But I feel justified in a way.  That fire was extremely scary.  The aftermath has been challenging and confusing.  My husband had a good business going and it was destroyed and it's been do difficult to deal with rebuilding it all.  When we was sick we had to deal with a lot of medical stuff that was foreign to even our doctors.  So many test, insurance, lost work, stress.  And no answers.  In both cases they expressed a casual interest at best.

At Thanksgiving I sat next to my BIL who was filming another BIL doing something silly.  People were howling with laughter.  I was too, because in the moment I was appreciating their fun-loving nature.  Then he nudged me and said, "this is the BEST family ever."  That was like a wet blanket.  He's comfortable and loved in this family.  We are not.

I didn't say anything in return.  I didn't need to.  He was already moving on to someone better to talk to.

My SIL's child has a big sporting event coming up.  Even though I don't care about sports, I know it's a big deal and the kid totally deserves to have the love, support, and excitement of his family.  But me - I'm going to sit this out. Even though I believe SIL will expect everyone to show their support by attending the final game.  My husband will go because he's got a relationship with the kid.  But I won't.  And I fantasized what I could say in response to what is sure to be her passive aggressive comments.

But every time I get worked up like this nothing happens.  They do not care about my efforts or absence.  They seem to be living their best life and here I am stewing over it.  I am not focused on my own goals, dreams or activities.  Most everything I do is in spite of them.  I want to be free of this dysfunctional feeling.  I try so hard to apply my good efforts to the positive things, people and events in my life.  There are MANY positive, good, things in my life.  But I focus on those who I feel have rejected us. 

I am a person with many, many, many blessings.  Why can't I accept the rejection and move forward?

Almost everyone in the family is attending a sporting event that one of my nephews is participating in.  I know it's an important moment for the kid.  I understand the support that everyone else is offering by their attendance.  But I am not there.  I do not want to be there.  There are certainly a few others in the family who are not attending so I'm not the only one.

The ones attending have plans and various pairings together to enjoy this event.  In the family text chain they are sharing pics of them together.  Smiling faces.  Arms around each other.  Joy.

I know that if I TRIED to be there, I still wouldn't be in those pics.  Maybe I would be included if I paid attention and made sure to be in the right place, at the right time.  They'd probably let me edge into frame.  But I'd had experiences where after I walked away they took another pic of just them.

I don't understand it.  I have spent the last couple years purging my friend list and being real about who I authentically consider my friend.  And I still have many people who like me and invite me places.  I have people who DO text me just for the heck of it.  I have people who actively come to me at parties so that they can catch up with me.  And I genuinely love and respect them.  I KNOW I'm not a terrible or annoying person.

And I'm pretty much like everyone else in the family.  I grew up in the same region.  I am from the same economic class.  I know many of the same people they know.  I have a home like their homes.  I neither live grander or more shabby than anyone else.  I'm NOT a mutant who sniffs at their way of life.

So why does this family - a huge family that takes on many family friends - feel the need to shun me in these passive aggressive ways?  It hurts so much. 

By the way, my husband is attending the same game but he went with a friend.  He probably won't even sit near his siblings or parents.  My heart hurts for my husband who has finally dropped the rope on his family.  I'm so blessed that he makes the efforts to find his place elsewhere.  I have too.  I just hate being reminded of how this family rejects me.

I would love to stop seeing them.  But we live in such a small community that I'd run into them anyway.
I'd love to exit the family text chain.  But then I really will be in the dark on my nieces and nephews - who I love.

I have to find a way to make peace within myself in regards to them.

Quote from: Hopeful Spine on December 03, 2022, 04:14:07 PM
The ones attending have plans and various pairings together to enjoy this event.  In the family text chain they are sharing pics of them together.  Smiling faces.  Arms around each other.  Joy.

...I have to find a way to make peace within myself in regards to them.

Hi Hopeful Spine,

I consider myself somewhat educated in these personality disorders and how far-reaching the PD's manipulate in control, using every available tool at their disposal.  In addition, im able to better align my own experiences with these methods of covert PD control over the decades, and now know that the "smiling faces",  "arms around each other" and "joy" are in many cases, not really the deeper truth. 

Some of the smiling faces in the pictures of my extended family photo albums include persons whom I know suffer in the manipulative abuse caused by a PD who is standing near, and smiling with, their victim in the very same picture.  For folks who are not  'in the know', those pictures in my album may look like "joy", but I know there is much obligation to be in the picture, and that the true heart of the abused is hidden behind the facade of  "smiling faces" and the "arms around each other". 

Therefore for me, my "peace within myself" is knowing that i am one of the few who are bold enough to not show up, because i am correctly self-protective, and also refuse to promote the continuation of the cover-up that occurs with all the smiles and gatherings.  Imo, the continuations of the status quo are silenced acceptance of abuse by the victims and that in itself, is fuel for PD's.

Imo, you should be proud of yourself and your boldness in boundaries, not to participate.  That gives me the peace I need, while others can simply adult themselves. 

SoT

Quote from: SonofThunder on December 04, 2022, 10:32:25 AM
Therefore for me, my "peace within myself" is knowing that i am one of the few who are bold enough to not show up, because i am correctly self-protective, and also refuse to promote the continuation of the cover-up that occurs with all the smiles and gatherings.  Imo, the continuations of the status quo are silenced acceptance of abuse by the victims and that in itself, is fuel for PD's.

Imo, you should be proud of yourself and your boldness in boundaries, not to participate.  That gives me the peace I need, while others can simply adult themselves. 

Thanks for that.

Everyone believes this family is so amazing. In fact, over the weekend I attended a party and I met a person who knew one of my BILs.  She made a comment about how great he is and asked, "are they all so special and down to earth as he is?"  I just smiled and said something bland like, "yes, they are a special family."

But I KNOW that this brother has been a shit to my husband.  I KNOW that he can be the worst.  That's what bugs me.  This family has everyone fooled. 

I was thinking recently about how much they change depending on how you approach them.  If, even today, I would show up to a holiday party and say, "OMG, you guys are just the BEST!  I'm so lucky I get to be here."  They would roll out the red carpet and charm me all day.  Funny little jokes, nudges and cute exchanges.  This is what I used to do.

When I got more comfortable in the family and I realized that, "hey!  I'm one of them now and I'm fun too!" I'd attend parties with the attitude of "Let's have a blast and have as much fun as possible!"  Well.  Then the return attitude was more like, "mmmmmm, we'll see."  And they would go off and be friendly and fun with anyone who stoked their ego.  Or they would focus on entertaining a new person, such as a nieces boyfriend who attended for the first time.  I would be seen as a pest.  It's clear that I'm not "one of them."

If I go into the party with the attitude of "I'm low key, I'm going to hang back while you guys have your fun."  They act like I'm a boring bitch and ignore me.

My best solution is to fawn all over them the minute I get there so that everyone feels happy and friendly.  But I can't fawn anymore.  I just can't.

In the last couple years we've really distanced ourselves and now we don't get into most text chains (such as the sporting event activities).  We rarely share anything with them or offer information about our lives.  No one asks.  For instance, we're doing a major construction on our property to replace a building that was destroyed by fire.  It's almost completely up but we haven't told anyone or shared anything on social media.  My husband takes a twisted sense of satisfaction in this.  That we are living our lives without their input or support.  I too sort of fantasize how it will feel to say, "oh, yes, the building is up and he's been working out of it for weeks.  We've been too busy to even tell anyone."  But they won't care.  Nothing will impress them.

SoT - I get what you are saying.  Those photos aren't the truth and there are manipulations under the surface.  I can see that when my husband is included in a group photo.  He looks happy but I know it's fleeting.  But the rest of them - they all seem to be 100% happy with each other.  There's like 4 ringleaders and they all seem to be happy to take their turns leading the circus.  And supporting the others when it's their turn.  But we're tired of watching "their show".  We want to be respected and loved within this family but we feel tolerated at best.

How do you just STOP the negative feelings from coming back.  Do you have a mantra.  Do you say a prayer?  Like what do you specifically DO to fight this.  I just can't seem to shake these feelings.

HS - If I didn't know better I would say your in-law family was my in-law family.  That cruelty is covert and feels like are rejection of self.  A rejection of your core essence.

But it isn't

Remember that their rejection and action is a reflection of them - their inability/their issues/their problems - not of you.  You represent everything they can't be or have - and that is where you will find your power and your truth.

If you have to tell yourself that in the mirror every day do so.  If you have to silence the notifications from the text chain, do so.  If you have to stop and only go to events like high holidays, do so.  Your peace, your spirit - your life.

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on December 06, 2022, 11:08:47 AM
Remember that their rejection and action is a reflection of them - their inability/their issues/their problems - not of you.  You represent everything they can't be or have - and that is where you will find your power and your truth.

:yeahthat:

HopefulSpine,

As much as I would prefer the negative feelings to stop, they keep on coming...like normally spaced ocean waves.  I personally believe its just part of the social interconnectivity of human beings.  Family interconnectivity, all the more prevalent.

I do not have a mantra per-se, but rather an awareness that the negative feelings are present; awareness they will come and go...like manageable ocean waves; awareness that they will pass if I just accept their presence, ride them gently up, over the top and down the backside.  I will enjoy the calmer space in-between but am fully aware that i will repeat the up and over on the next wave's arrival.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

I agree with JKT that going as NC/LC as possible, surely helps in minimizing.  For me, the NC/LC methods help space the waves further apart and/or reduces the height of the wave, which allows my feet to possibly remain firmly in the sand while that wave passes.  But in my own experiences, the PD's and their flying monkey's (knowingly or unknowingly) cause a larger wave on occasion, even with my NC/LC methods. 

Yes, as a Christian, prayer is an interconnectivity relationship i enjoy, but it does not alter my expectation of waves.  If a storm of activity occurs without my ability to control, i know to expect even those large storm waves where my feet don't touch the sand, and even rip-currents.  Therefore i know i will still float up, over and down the larger storm waves, and if I find myself in a a tumultuous rip current of emotional-feeling events, i heed the expert instruction of not fighting against the strong current's forces, but rather let that current take me out to deeper water, and when the current slows it's pull, i know to swim sideways until out of the offshore flow, and then back to the shallows; my feet on solid ground with normal waves.

This more-relaxed wave and rip-current floating analogy is my memory 'mantra' of reminding myself that I'm human, and interconnected by my humanness.  Therefore, i tell myself that the up-over-down wave floating is a constant, expected and ok to have in my life.  Im fully aware of its permanent existence. Yet I also know that wave fighting, is not a wise move for me, for it eventually leaves me worn out and powerless, struggling even in the normally spaced smaller waves. 

Best wishes to you as you navigate those feelings.

SoT

Quote from: Hopeful Spine on December 06, 2022, 08:52:58 AM
Everyone believes this family is so amazing.
This family has everyone fooled. 

How do you just STOP the negative feelings from coming back. 

yes, to above
not a FB follower but I see the posts on GC brother & GC sister's FB pages (open to all posts)
they both appear like perfect people on FB
I always think "if only people knew the truth!"

unfortunately, negative feelings re GC still pop up
I tell husband "can't believe this or that"
he tells me to let it go.....it's hard though!

I asked GC to drive me to store (before I renewed license that expired)
got a  "no" even tho she manages to go out several times/wk with a "lonely" friend to lunch, dinner, shopping & is not even working now

couldn't drive me to a store 5 min from my house?
I've done SO many things for GC whenever she needed help!
GC won't do one little thing for me....it's unreal

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on December 06, 2022, 11:08:47 AM
HS - If I didn't know better I would say your in-law family was my in-law family.  That cruelty is covert and feels like are rejection of self.  A rejection of your core essence.

But it isn't

Remember that their rejection and action is a reflection of them - their inability/their issues/their problems - not of you.  You represent everything they can't be or have - and that is where you will find your power and your truth.

If you have to tell yourself that in the mirror every day do so.  If you have to silence the notifications from the text chain, do so.  If you have to stop and only go to events like high holidays, do so.  Your peace, your spirit - your life.

Thank you for all this.  On some level I know this to be true.  My husband is 10 years sober after a decade of terrible behavior and mistakes.  In his years of sobriety he's found unexpected success as a specific business that I know makes some of the others jealous.  But their lives are great too.  Many of them are alcoholics but they are highly functioning and have work success, beautiful homes, lots of great tangible things that spell success.  Maybe there are things I don't know.  It would be different if ONE of them had a problem with us.  BUt when so many do - it makes you feel like the problem.

Quote from: SonofThunder on December 06, 2022, 12:14:41 PM
HopefulSpine,

As much as I would prefer the negative feelings to stop, they keep on coming...like normally spaced ocean waves.  I personally believe its just part of the social interconnectivity of human beings.  Family interconnectivity, all the more prevalent.

I do not have a mantra per-se, but rather an awareness that the negative feelings are present; awareness they will come and go...like manageable ocean waves; awareness that they will pass if I just accept their presence, ride them gently up, over the top and down the backside.  I will enjoy the calmer space in-between but am fully aware that i will repeat the up and over on the next wave's arrival.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

SoT

All of that insight was incredibly helpful.  I'm going to try this mindset during the holiday season.  Typically I feel like pond scum around them - so riding waves doesn't even occur to me.  I brace myself, waiting for whenever the crash MIGHT happen and then usually the wave pulls me under.  Maybe this year I can better anticipate that the wave WILL happen and then just allow it.  Thank you!

Quote from: Jolie40 on December 06, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

yes, to above
not a FB follower but I see the posts on GC brother & GC sister's FB pages (open to all posts)
they both appear like perfect people on FB
I always think "if only people knew the truth!"

unfortunately, negative feelings re GC still pop up
I tell husband "can't believe this or that"
he tells me to let it go.....it's hard though!

I asked GC to drive me to store (before I renewed license that expired)
got a  "no" even tho she manages to go out several times/wk with a "lonely" friend to lunch, dinner, shopping & is not even working now

couldn't drive me to a store 5 min from my house?
I've done SO many things for GC whenever she needed help!
GC won't do one little thing for me....it's unreal

I totally understand those irritations.  My in laws do this with their mother.  Too busy to do certain things for her but they have all the time in the world for other people or their friends.  Then DH and I pick up the pieces.  A family friend lost his vacation cabin due to fire.  Everyone banded together to help with the rebuild.  They even bought this guy a collection of t-shirts to replace the ones he lost in the fire.  All of this is pretty nice.  Obviously the family friend was touched.  Then a year later when we had a fire - they acted bored and did 100% NOTHING.

It's so frustrating to listen to people praise them for their actions over one event, while we suffered alone during a similar one. 

HS (I like your handle btw) - the reason they helped the family friend is because it looks good to the community.  Helping family does not raise face - unless you are big in the community or connected politically - no need to help you.  Does nothing for them in return.  Similar to the house we lived in when my kids were little - my xOCPDh would take care of the lawn so the neighborhoods would applaud him for the work and effort with the house and kids.  But inside it was hands off I don't care and just a never ending pile of stuff.  All looks good from the outside.

Look into mindfulness like SOT suggested - daily meditation and mindfulness techniques will help with the stress of dealing with them.  The more you practice the more you can ride the waves.

I am also including a link to a stategy my T calls Coping Ahead.  It helps for the times I'm going into a stressful situation.  In fact, I have that right now as I am having dinner with an old friend whose mother recently passed.  I plan on following the worksheet but my T suggested that you spend no more than 30 minutes on the imagining part.  Otherwise you will loose yourself.  https://www.sharp.com/hospitals/mesa-vista/programs/upload/Cope-Ahead.pdf. Practice on few simple things like doc visit or grocery run before you do a big family stressor.

Quote from: Hopeful Spine on December 08, 2022, 11:29:11 AM
Maybe this year I can better anticipate that the wave WILL happen and then just allow it.  Thank you!

HopefulSpine yes! 

Riding that anticipated wave up over and down is (as JKT is stating above) proactive, mental planning ahead.  If you have been out into the ocean surf before, you will know that being where the waves crash is a very volatile place to reside and is a choice.  In the curl's location, the water is very low visibility with stirred-up sand and whitewater in the crashing waves, and many times I get knocked down. 

But if I purposefully advance-swim out to deeper waters, i get beyond the crashing and it is there where the very same waves are much more manageable and predictable; allowing me to simply float up with, over the non-curled top and back down the other side.  In that purposeful position, the water below is also much more clear.  The sure expectation of ocean waves, allows me a much calmer ocean experience, and not being in the turmoil of the curls, I find that the increased advanced mental placement, allows me to deploy the toolbox much better. 

PD's are predictable enough to say that waves will be occurring. The size, frequency and duration between the drama waves is the difficult portion to predict.  But, if I float out far enough, it doesn't matter.  Up-over-down, up-over-down, wash-rinse-repeat.   Shorebirds understand this well and just bob-along, out beyond the curl.  I will be like a Seagull or Pelican and just float along with the expected waves, watching them crash in on others from out in my prepared mental floating spot.

SoT

The big family party was yesterday.  I was so busy prior that I didn't really have time to get worked up which was a good thing.

The night before I "spitefully" made a new cookie recipe.  I used to make all sorts of fun things to contribute to the meal.  In the early years I enjoyed it, but my husband's sister (who we consider the bully of the family) used to make passive aggressive comments about my food so I slowly started scaling back.  Then, when my husband and I had marital troubles I lost the interest in contributing and I certainly did NOT want attention so I provided easy things like bags of chips or a tray of fruit.  I never really bounced back to my original joy of contributing.  So when I felt happy last night making the effort to try a new recipe.  And yes, bit of me felt a little spiteful and even a little thrill, thinking maybe DH's sister will TRY her old tricks.  "Bring it" is what I said to myself.

In the end I made some special cookies, which were well received by my husband and eaten without comment by the rest of the party.  I felt happy to try something new.  I felt a little sad that no one complimented me.  A little disappointed to not have my "I don't care what you say to me" moment. 

I also feel I have more work to do.  I'm a little ashamed that I carried that spite with me but my hope is that I'm now on the path to doing things that bring me joy and in the future won't be concerned with my old bully or dependent on favorable comments by the family.

Another interesting thing happened.  I have a terrible SIL (DH's brothers wife).  I won't rehash it all because I've discussed her in my past threads.  But 7ish years ago she said TERRIBLE things about my husband.  It is a complicated situation and she wasn't entirely wrong in her feelings but her timing, her attitude and many of her actions were unfair and excessive.  I know she was geared by anxiety but it was sort of the last straw for me and I have avoided her every since.  I used to consider her a good sister and close friend.  I HAVE forgiven her for her actions but I have never gotten over her inability to circle back, apologize, feel a little remorse.  Or more importantly, invite me back into her life.  Her last words to use were, "go have kids of your own and leave mine alone."

Anyway, in the years since she has avoided me as well.  For awhile Dh's brother made efforts.  Extra friendly to us.  Invites to their kid's events.  All done without a real conversation and apology for how his wife behaved towards us.  His efforts landed badly.  Then, for a couple years, he became distant, sort of judgey when in a group converstion with others.  In recent years he's made purposeful efforts to hug us and express love.  One time he said, with great emotion and meaning, that he was praying for me.  It totally f--ks with me.  I am a mess, I know this but I'm getting help, I'm being mindful, I'm getting better with setting boundaries.  I pray for guidance.  I am kind.  I am simply not talking to HER.  For me to pedal this hard and still have one of your "enemies" make a big deal about praying for you - it's a weird sort of gaslighting.

Anyway, through it all my SIL never speaks to me.  The last couple of family events she's been very bubbly, giggly and happy.  She seems to be making great friends with my bully.  Very social, loud, and fun.  This is how I used to remember her.  How she used to behave with me.  It's incredibly annoying but I press on with my boundaries.  But yesterday was different.

I am a great gift wrapper.  Something I used to celebrate and enjoy.  Until I allowed the bully to ruined it for me.  Even though I don't go overboard anymore it's a family joke that I'm the best and it's often mentioned during the gift exchange.  The first gift was a very basic wrap job and someone in the family legitimately joked, "Oh yeah, this one was done by HS for sure."  It happened a few other times.  It was very friendly and fun and okay.  But during one gift my SIL tried to join in - and she honestly did it in a friendly way.  She addressed me directly, "HS, don't listen to them.  They are just jealous.  HS, they only want to be as good as you." 

This year I DID go overboard and extravagently wrapped a gift.  When it was SIL's turn to bring a gift to someone else she choose my extra fancy package to deliver to the intended person.  She made a big deal of showing off the wrapping and making people "ohh" and "ahhh". 

To make things even worse - SHE was my Secret Santa and I had to thank her for my gift.

I KNOW SIL was being kind.  She wasn't being a jerk or passive aggressive or mean in any way.  This was a real attempt by her to connect with me.  Maybe even apologize to me.  I totally believe that.  And a part of me was shocked and happy.

BUT.  She has done this all before.  Hurt me in smaller ways and then moves on without any real apology.

I am hurt that she choose a very public way to do this.  I'm incredulous that she thinks that she can just hop into a conversation and just "pretend" that we're okay.  I'm scared that, after seven years, I might allow her back in without receiving any accountability or respect.  So I avoided her the rest of the evening and I hid in the bathroom while her family left.  All her kids were hugging us goodbye and I couldn't chance that she'd try to hug me.

I used the wave technique.  I told myself I was I was going to sit in the deep end with my husband, my cookie tray and the fancy gift.  It's not "safe" in the deep end but I was prepared for it with my strong husband and a few things that brought me joy.  I anticipated waves when I released the cookies but didn't receive any - good or bad.  I was a little disappointed but happy because I was still safe.  When my bully sat next to me I braced myself for those waves and was relieved when they weren't too heavy.  I relaxed a little.  And when SIL made her efforts during gift giving - pumped my legs under the surface and survived by appearing calm above water.

Then I found a lifeboat in the bathroom.  I'm not proud I disappeared - but I was safe.  In the lifeboat I didn't have to feel pain if she didn't hug me and I didn't have to fear how I'd behave if she did hug me.  I was in control of myself while in the lifeboat.  I got to decide how long I'd stay.  I gained composure and when I left the life boat I was able to finish the evening with pride.

I likely won't see SIL until Easter.  My hope, as always, is that SIL would message me with a simple, "I'm sorry." or "I wish I wouldn't have said those things."  or "I miss you and I was wrong."  Those would be honest, private, attempts I could work with.  But odd, unexpected, and forced friendly banter, in front of an audience, in a place I don't consider safe.  Nope - that's not going to work for me. 

The old me would have accepted her where she was.  I'd have been joyfully relieved, thrilled and excited.  I'd have joined her in that friendly joking.  I would have later walked up next to her it the dessert table and playfully bumped into her.  I would have given her one of my fancy cookies and ask what she thought.  I'd have ask about her oldest and her youngest. I'd have sent her a text today telling her that it was nice seeing her.  And I'd have acknowledged that her silly forced comment was an attempt at an apology.  We'd be best friends again.  And I'd have accepted without receiving the words that I deserve to hear.

Today I'm going to spend some time alone in my office, doing things I like.  Later I'll join my husband and be happy.

HopefulSpine,

Throughout that entire previous post, i read self-control, planning ahead, emotional and situational awareness (effective radar), excellent balanced mindfulness from a birds-eye view of the entire situation, beginning to end, and a great use of allowing yourself to float with the experiences and emotions vs fighting against the waves. 

The lifeboat analogy of your proactive escape during a anticipated segment of the experience is a well executed 'boundary' that you 100% set and completed for yourself for pre-selected, self-protective reasons, and you utilized the boundary in full, to your advantage. 

Well done!  A big congratulations! 

SoT

Quote from: SonofThunder on December 18, 2022, 10:33:35 AM
HopefulSpine,

Throughout that entire previous post, i read self-control, planning ahead, emotional and situational awareness (effective radar), excellent balanced mindfulness from a birds-eye view of the entire situation, beginning to end, and a great use of allowing yourself to float with the experiences and emotions vs fighting against the waves. 

The lifeboat analogy of your proactive escape during a anticipated segment of the experience is a well executed 'boundary' that you 100% set and completed for yourself for pre-selected, self-protective reasons, and you utilized the boundary in full, to your advantage. 

Well done!  A big congratulations! 

SoT

Thank you for this comment and for the idea of the wave technique.  Usually I'm a mess before the party and my husband is a mess after the party.  Happily we both handled ourselves well. Yesterday afternoon we took a long drive and had a nice meal.  Part of our discussion was the family but the majority of the day was a nice calm outing.  In the past we'd have spent almost all our time complaining and rehashing everything.

My bully really IS a bully and the family has just sort of accepted her as she is.  I guess that is what I've been trying to do for years.  Be loving and accepting to this family member.  After all, she had her good points, right?  But that isn't a healthy way to incorporate someone into your life.  I wasn't a strong person when I met her.  I cringe now when I think of all the ways I've let her behave towards and around me.

At the party she needled a high school kid about his recent haircut.  The kid wore a hat because he hated his cut.  She swiped his hat twice and egged on another kid to swipe it a third time.  In two cases the kid left the room and took awhile to come back.  The third time she "playfully" sat on his lap so he couldn't leave.

The bully also heckled her own husband while he was opening gifts.  She spoke in a loud, aggressive voice at other times, even when she didn't have to.  She made negative comments about her fathers drinking and then fished for support when she said, "I hope that I don't behave like that when I'm drinking."  She looked around the table daring one of us to say anything.  I looked away.  Grey rock.

She pre-arranged for her teenage son to pick up a family friend who knew (a week ago) that he'd be too drunk to drive to the party.  She will barely give me or my husband the time of day but she goes out of her way to make sure a toxic family friend is in attendance at the family party.

I used to work so damn hard to get her approval and "respect".  Now I work hard to slide under her radar and avoid even sitting next to her.

My attention to her and her antics is why I can't move on.  I'm finally understanding that I allowed an unhealthy cycle of behavior between us.  Now it's time to move on - even if that means I have to leave a big portion of the family behind.

I had an incredible experience on Christmas day.

Rewind to the family gift exchange, which was last week.  My "terrible" SIL had me in the gift exchange and it made me all kinds of uncomfortable.  I brought the gifts home, expecting that I'd just donate them and not be reminded of her.  My husband encouraged me to keep them because, as he pointed out, "she just purchased off your amazon list anyway.  These aren't personal gifts."

So I kept them and a week later, on Christmas Day, I tried out the new coffee maker.  I went about the day and later I went to clean up and was trying to decide if I wanted to keep the coffee maker box.  I then noticed something else in the box.  I dumped it out and found that "terrible" SIL had made me a special gift AND included an apology letter!!!!

My husband and I froze when it felt out of the box.  When he saw what the handmade portion was he got a look on his face that said, "yeah, typical!".  But when I opened it further and pulled out the note we just stared at each other.  I finally read it and it was beautiful and heartfelt.  I was shaking the entire time.  My husband cried.

And now a different sort of work begins.  I used to have a close relationship with this woman.  I mourned her for the last seven years.  I tried hard to "get over it" and failed.  In my heart I knew (hoped) that she was remorseful but her actions said otherwise.  Without any sort of acknowledgement of her actions I simply could not force myself to even try to mend the gap.  It was as if God, the universe and my very self was holding me down and not allowing me to act.  Every time I tried I would get a sick feeling and I'd have to look away, or hide.  For seven years it was the hardest thing I had to do.  To simply be silent and wait.  To wait for something I never expected to happen.

But it did.

I texted her to thank her for her extra gifts and her words.  I privately wondered what would have happened if I had just dropped it all off at the thrift store and went on with my life.  I accepted her apology.  I thanked her.  And I wished her good things for the new year.

She replied back that she was glad I accepted her apology and admitted that she didn't know where to go from here.  I replied back that I didn't know either but I hoped we'd move forward together.

I am in awe of what has happened. 

I feel a peaceful calm.

I know that I will be able to face her now.  Now that I have her admission of responsibility I can feel equal in front of her.

I don't feel a rush of relief or excited energy.  I'm NOT booking a trip to see her.  I'm NOT calling her to chat or make plans.  I'm NOT imagining our next meeting.  I'm simply pleased and in no hurry to do anything.  I HOPE this means that I will be able to move forward with boundaries and meet this new person who has presented herself to me.

I used to always refer to this SIL as "my awful SIL".  Which was sort of unfair because I still loved her even if what she did made me feel awful.  Giving her that title It just sort of streamlined things when I vented to people.  Now "magically" she is not "awful".  I might look kinda silly to my friends when I move forward with her.  Maybe it's time to stop labeling people.  Maybe learning boundaries will help me with that.

This so beautiful HS.  My heart is so happy for you.

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on December 28, 2022, 05:56:30 PM
This so beautiful HS.  My heart is so happy for you.

+1

SoT

Life has been good since Christmas.  Over the weekend it occurred to me that I NEVER think of my sister in-law.  Pre-apology I though of her often.  All the time.  A lot.  I would get off track, it would ruin my alone time.  My constant need for approval and validation from this woman consumed me.  And now?  I never even THINK of the person who captivated my attention for so long.  I wish I could have healed on my own, years ago.  But I held on to that hurt and I didn't move forward.

On New Years I decided to reach out to my sister-in-law.  Just a simple text to wish her a happy new year.  We had a little exchange and that was nice.  I lobbed the ball.  Now it's sort of her turn.  I don't expect, want or need her to do anything.  That is the beauty of healing.  Should she text me I will smile and reply.  But I'm truly okay if she doesn't.

I'm trying to find a silver lining in all the years I held on to that pain.  The best I can come up with is that it made me really see the family I married into.  It's helped me to accept those people who don't please me (maybe my issue to work on - not theirs).  It made me protect myself from those who are truly toxic.  Those people don't even try with me anymore and what a gift that is!  It made me appreciate those who have never once hurt me.

The apology note I read on Christmas day changed me.  I'm not entirely sure how except that I feel more free than I ever have.  I enjoyed that for a bit but I kept thinking about all the mental energy and negativity that consumed for the for seven years I waited.  It was truly  gift that freed me from something I couldn't get out of.

I'm a bit embarrassed at how much another persons actions consumed me.  I always considered myself a strong person because I have "stuck it out", "endured" relationships, been the "better person".  I was strong in some ways.  But in other ways I was taking the easy way out.  Enduring bad behavior is actually easier than confronting it.  And dealing with the fallout. 

I never want to spend seven years being a victim and ruminating about the hurtful words of someone else.  Never again.

I was really pissed at my life a few days ago.  My phone cord is fraying and every morning and every night when I plug in my phone I'm irritated about that cord.  Every morning and night I'd tell myself I need to replace it.  My home is still in a state of disorder due to a series of events that are finally getting resolved.  I keep my home clean but it's not pretty, nice or calming and I pass by a mountain of neatly boxed items right outside my bathroom door.  My vehicle gets me where I want to go but it runs poorly and is noisy. 

Sometimes all these things add up and I just get pissed.  I've accepted these irritations as "the way life is".  I've endured my home because I know that I need to be patient and soon it will work out.  I reason with myself each time I get in that damn car that we don't need a car payment and I should be happy the damn car works.

All of that sucks but you know what is worse?  Not even TRYING to fix any of those problems.  Just going about the day - being irritated but accepting of whatever I have going on.

You know what else sucks?  Spending seven years WAITING for someone to give me closure on something that hurt me profoundly.

I'm not a total slug.  I work hard.  I do things.  I make things happen.  But many times I just look at the negative things in my life and WISH I could renovate, travel, participate.  I just don't think certain things are for me and I wait until I HAVE to fix something.  Or a situation forces my hand. 

Yes, the old me found it easier to just tell myself everything was fine.  But the new me knows that it's much harder and more scary to actually take ownership.  And the new me is finally getting sick of living the old me's life.

Because my husband and I are small business owners (in our small town) we were asked to be featured in a small scale publication.  Professional photos, interview and thousands of copies scattered all over the county.  It was FAR outside of my comfort zone.  I felt sick and dreaded the whole beautiful thing.  It would have been easier to say "no" and then be passive-aggressively supportive of the person that would go in our place.  But I went along with the hard thing and did it.  I worried people would see the cover and think that we were frauds.  That we were so full of ourselves.  And whatever else I assumed people would think.

I took my hand off the wheel and was surprised to be very pleased with the professional photos, the well written article.  I felt . . . important.  And worthy.  And it only got better when many people messaged us with kind words of support.  It was fun to see the pride on my parents face.  It was satisfying to have the toxic people in my life - act exactly how I expected them to act.

I recently took my business in another direction and it's fun and exciting.  Scary - but so worth it when I found myself accepted. 

Life could really be different for me if I only push myself a little more.

That last post was an interesting read Hopeful Spine!   

From one self-employed person to another, I will be keeping you in thought and prayer for the self-encouraging 'pushing' that you desire to do on yourself!  I personally find organization to be a big motivator in other areas outside of being organized. Organization seems to stimulate the 'push' for me, and sometimes, I simply do some small organization, so that I simply stay motivated. 

Organizing thoughts is another way of organizing, both personally and with my business, and I really like mind mapping, for organizational purposes.  I highly recommend the app named Mindly.  It's not a traditional looking mind map, but it works very well on a smart phone.  If you desire a more family tree looking map, then you could use MindNode.

Congratulations on having your business featured, and I hope that you continue to find it both stimulating and also potentially increasing your business volume.  Cheers!

SoT

Quote from: SonofThunder on April 04, 2023, 12:57:38 PM
Organizing thoughts is another way of organizing, both personally and with my business, and I really like mind mapping, for organizational purposes.  I highly recommend the app named Mindly.  It's not a traditional looking mind map, but it works very well on a smart phone.  If you desire a more family tree looking map, then you could use MindNode.

I have never heard of Mind Mapping so I will look into the apps you suggested.  Enough good things have happened lately that I feel ready to make changes and make new things happen.  But it all seems overwhelming.  Perhaps mind mapping will help?

I have been filling my life with new people and letting the old ones go.  But I am still hyper-focused on my in-laws.  We try to not be but we are.  All the slights, all the disregards.  For instance, the publication.  My family is thrilled.  My friends are texting nice things.  Random acquaintances are sending messages.  I'm feeling the love.  So why do I care that my husbands family hasn't given one word of praise?

My truly toxic sister-in-law stopped by my office because she needed me to employ my services.  I grey-rocked while being friendly and helpful in a business sense.  She made a passing comment of, "so I heard you were featured!"  And I said, "oh yeah.  It was a really fun experience and we got some great pictures out of it."  She then said that she hadn't seen it yet but her friend was going to give her a copy.

And then she went on to ask "random" leading questions about some of the things that were in the article.  She pointedly asked if I was "happy" with the article which seemed odd all around - especially if she hadn't read it herself.

I was perfectly pleasant, positive and flippant during our whole conversation.  I felt strong and in control.  But the minute she left I escaped to the bathroom to hide and recoup in private.  I don't want this woman to have ANY sort of power over me so I know I have work to do.

Anyway, all the local in-laws are very aware of anything happening in the community.  There is NO WAY that these people didn't get the publication or know 10 people who did.  But not one word of praise or support.  And it just irritates that crap out of us.  We do not want to feel this way.  Each holiday is not a time to draw closer to family and make memories.  Each holiday is an opportunity to grow stronger in our tolerance to their treatment of us.  These are nice people with nice families and nice jobs and nice homes.  People who have nice pets, take nice vacations and have nice friends. But these people - are NOT nice.

I agree with you HopefulSpine that your SiL read the article.  Im so sorry that the family members are as you describe.  You wrote:

"These are nice people with nice families and nice jobs and nice homes.  People who have nice pets, take nice vacations and have nice friends. But these people - are NOT nice."

Imo, when others have that much 'nice' going on but you dont experience pleasant people, then 'nice' is a maintained facade, covering up a whole pile crap they don't want anyone to know about. 

I encourage you to possibly look up mind-mapping in general, on an Internet search or on YouTube, which will give you a good overview of how the process (and software) enable very proactive brainstorming.  In my opinion mind-mapping is also excellent practice for being mindful (mindfulness), as the process requires both a birds-eye, ongoing look at the whole 'map' but also the details within, all coming together in steady fashion. 

Any topic can be mind-mapped (brainstormed), so when you understand how they work, think about topics you would like to brainstorm.  Each topic will be its own map.  For example, the person who wrote the article could have laid out a mind-map of the process.  The center starting point is the general topic and similar to a family tree, the branches that come out of the starting point are the first branches of topical breakdown, such as:

Topic: Main Center Circle (using Mindly app as example) is 'HopefulSpine Article'

First three branches off center circle :  1A: Interviews  1B: Photos  1C: Written Materials

Next is three branches off 1A are 2A: Mrs Hopeful  3A: Mr Hopeful  4A: Customers

*Similar three branch titles for 1B.

1C branches are 2C: History of company  3C: Company process  4C: The Hopeful family

The proactive nature of end to end brainstorming, quick and intuitive nature of the apps, allows for a steady thought process.  You can mind-map your "push-myself" process and goal if you desired! 😃

Have fun with it, as the proactivity is energizing.  All the best! 

SoT

Just a quick venting of how difficult I find boundaries.

Yesterday SIL invited us to a "last minute" birthday party for her child.   It was on the family text chain and I easily texted, "thanks for the invite but we won't be able to make it.  Happy Birthday to child!"

That was easy.  I knew that others had already been invited.  Her mentioning it on the family text was a public way to "pretend" that this was a last minute thing.  The out of town people wouldn't have wanted to make the trip anyway and they don't care or notice the unequal treatment this SIL shows us.  The intown people would understand the need for her to post info they already knew about.  I was the only one to RSVP on this text chain.

It was easy to decline because I truly didn't want to attend the party.  I don't want to be a guest in her home.  I don't want to socialize with the other PD people who would be there.  I wasn't hurt or surprised by this "last minute" invite.  It was easy to roll my eyes and decline.  Aside from a quick chat with my husband ("typical SIL, right?  I know!") it didn't factor into my headspace at all.

Today she picked up her order from my office.  I knew she was coming and I sort of dreaded meeting with her alone.  I ruminated how it might go.  How I'd tell a little white lie and say I needed to help my mom with something and that is why I couldn't go to her kids party.  I imagined that she would sense my uncomfortable-ness and confront me about it.  I imagined how I'd be brave and calmly tell her what's what.  I imagined that she'd strike back with a passive aggressive comment and how I'd expertly handle it and shut her down.  Several times in this imaginary scene I actually spoke out loud to myself, "Stop it!  This isn't happening and it's pointless to fantasize about how you'd handle it.  It's not real!"

So, in real life,  she picked up her order.  Happily someone else was already in my shop when she arrived so that broke up the initial tension that I feared.  I was pleased when the other client raved a little on me in her presence.  When the other person left I was friendly to SIL.  I even complimented her makeup and she was friendly and shared with me some info on it.  It was nice.  A fun chat even.  My heart softened and even as she's telling me about "the gift card that so and so gave her and where she purchased things" I'm thinking a lot of things.

"See, she's not terrible.  This is nice.  Just small doses and we're fine.  I can be the bigger person.  This is great."

Before she left she made a cutting comment about her mother and the Easter meal.  For a second I felt even better.  She was confiding in me!!!!  Like a sister!!!  And I personally agreed with what she was saying!!  Yes, she likes me!!! 

And then I remembered and smiled and shrugged my shoulders in solidarity for her complaint.  "Well, you know how it goes.  Whatya going to do, right?"

And now she's gone and I can't shake the conflicting feelings in my head (and heart).

That five minute interaction is what I WANT our relationship to be - always.  Fun chatting, commiserating, caring.  But the REALITY is that she was feeling magnanimous today.  She looked great (I do not).  I did work for her.  She's hosting a party.  She has a big milestone coming up.  She wants to collect as much friendship, love and alliances, so that soon - in her public moment - her life will look FULL - making her appear amazing.

The great sadness is that she IS amazing.  A truly talented, funny and wonderful person.  But her insecurities make her narcissistic and terrible. 

The greater sadness is that I want so much to heal her.  But I can't.

She might have enjoyed the conversation too.  But not enough to actually invest in a real relationship with me.  Not enough to "share" my business posts.  Not enough to give me a cheerful "congrats on the great article".  Not enough to reach out the few times life was hard and I needed some private support.  Not enough to tell me last week that she was throwing a party and hoped I could come.

I very much appreciate and respect authentic people.  Even if those people aren't my favorite.  I want to BE authentic.  And I want to avoid people whose actions make me feel like typing all of this on a beautiful Saturday morning.

I don't want relationships with people where I go from
- Scorn and disregard
- Anxiety about seeing them
- Cautiously interacting with them
- Cautiously enjoying them
- Having false feelings of acceptance and love for them
- Being on the lookout for red flags
- Zipping up those feelings to guard my heart
- Feeling sadness for what they are not and what they could be in my life
- A period of decompressing and reminding myself that grey rock is best
- Worry that I'm wrong and I could be doing more
- Sadness of knowing all the other people that they allow into their world while they shut me out.

And now, I will see her again tomorrow on Easter.   :unsure:

+1 HopefulSpine.  Imo, the beauty is how you fully understand all your wrote, from an end-to-end birds eye perspective.

"The great sadness is that she IS amazing.  A truly talented, funny and wonderful person.  But her insecurities make her narcissistic and terrible."

That statement is unbiased truth, formed from experience, mixed with self-compassionate boundaries in which you must protect.  That imo is a true balance.  Well done.

SoT

This is a flat out, pity party, brain dump.  I find myself thinking of my mother-in-law and I get so irritated.  I'm dropping this here so I can get on with my day.

When I was a newly married to my mother-in-laws son - he was a drunk.  And not a highly functioning one like the rest of the people in this family.  Awful fights, combative and just shy of abusive.  I wanted help.  I was shocked when no one stepped in to save me from this marriage that was so clearly unhealthy.  That hurt.  Then later I accepted that marriages are private and other people shouldn't get in the way.  But even later, after my marriage was healthy, I sort of felt that maybe his parents, at least, COULD have spoken up.

One time we were at the town festival and my husband (only my boyfriend at the time) was out of hand.  Drunk, acting stupid - I was fed up.  We stepped away from the crowd.  He insisted that we stand outside in the rain.  It was my "punishment" for being upset with him.  If I wanted to complain he would only do it in the rain.  He got so angry with me and begged me to slap him.  He taunted me with his face, pointing at it and saying, "go ahead, do it - I know you want to. Hit me!  HIT ME!"  It was so far outside the realm of a normal reaction, relationship, whatever.  I cried and got away from the embarrassing situation.  I called my own mother to pick me up.  While walking to the end of the park I saw his mother and I stopped to tell her that her son was out of line and that I was going home.  She hugged me and said, "okay, see ya later."  She said it like I had told her that I forgot my purse and was heading home.

I felt terrible.  My boyfriend hated me.  His mother didn't care that I was crying and emotional.  Then, a few minutes later, my mother was pissed because I had drug her out in the rain.  She was disgusted and instead of telling me that I deserved better.  That HE was out of line.  She berated me for being "stupid enough" to stay with him.

This was one of many times I felt defeated.  I remember family weddings, parties, even Sunday afternoons on the patio where he was a jerky drunk to not only me but others.  In her presence.  Even in his anger towards me he was sweet as pie to his mother.  She loved it.  She acted like it was no big deal.  But it was a terrible way for me to live.

Now that my husband is sober and fully contrite for the life we used to lead I rarely think of situations like this.  I am not perfect but I am secure in my marriage, happy to have come out the other side.  Relieved that it all ended so well.  Proud that I was able to work hard and apply the boundaries I clearly needed to build.  I can even accept why my peers didn't step in and try to "help".  Marriages are private.

I recently saw a video of a woman outlining a big project in her life.  In the video she states a couple times, "no one is coming to save me."  And it resonated so well with me.  I WANTED someone to save me for many years.  I waited and expected and stuck it out - thinking that eventually someone would step in. But no one did.  It was because "I" needed to save me.  I needed to find the courage to FINALLY lay it all out and make decisions and demands and follow through on what I needed and expected.  I endured a lot but in the end - I saved me.

These days family functions are difficult.  They are full of dysfunctional people and pained relationships.  There are a lot of confused in-laws.  And in recent years a very drunk and disorderly father-in-law.  My mother-in-law has changed.  She used to be a sweet, supportive person - even if she ignored the real problems in front of her.  But the years have changed her and now she has a husband who picks arguments, gets aggressive in his speech and who looks like a joke. He leaves often to go to the family cabin.  She's alone a lot.

The family endures it all with a lot of eye rolls.  My mother in law joins in.  She sits and pouts.  She is negative and angry.  And when she tries to be positive it's very much a martyr-like attitude.

I WISH I was the sort of person who could offer support.  But I find myself thinking, "There!  There is your bed.  Lie in it."  It's so unkind, so petty and so very hard of me, to think this way.  But the truth is - "no one is coming to save you".  I could have left but I choose to stay.  So, I had to grow as a person.  I had to build a back bone.  I had to put in years of hard work in therapy.  I had to endure a few years of uncertainty, hoping that my efforts would pay off.  I had to become a person with boundaries.  I had to do SO MUCH on my own while she pretended that her son had simply drank a few too many beers.

She is the mother.  I really did expect her to see how terrible her son was and step in.  She didn't.  She never does.  She only pretends that her family is perfect.

When I watch my in-laws - I see the familiar pattern.  I know how difficult it can be.  I don't wish that on anyone.  I don't want her to suffer like I did.  I don't want her to be alone during her retirement years, where is is still healthy and interested in life.  I want her to follow my lead and do the hard things so that the family can heal.  So SHE can have the happiness I have.

She complains all the time. 

She is "perfect" - in how she eats, how she she follows all the rules of the church, how she gives so much of her time to the easy people.

But she won't do the hard things. 

She makes fun of her husband behind his back - instead of getting real with him.  Or admonishing her own children for being unkind.  The disrespect is awful.

She puts other people in the drivers seat.  A child in the family had surgery.  And a week later she pouts because the parents haven't updated her on how he's doing.  She hasn't considered that they are busy.  Or that he's not healing well and they don't have time to communicating with those who haven't asked.  Or maybe they are testing her - to see if she will even care enough to text them.  Because people in this family do this.  Back when I wanted their approval I did this.

I get irritated with her because I see a lot of my old self in her.  It's not easy to watch and remember how I used to be.

She relies a lot on my husband and that is not healthy.  She doesn't treat me poorly but it does feel like competition.  She helps my husband with his business and sometimes I feel like I'm the third wheel.  I know she gets a lot of joy from being involved in his business and I don't want to take that away.  But I also feel like I'm missing out when I step aside for her.  My husband is at a loss on what to do.

I know none of this is healthy and I will have to sort it out with my husband.  But for today I need to dump it all here and get back to work.

Hi Hopeful Spine.  I read your brain dump.  It was written very well, flowed in a timeline and also in your thought process.  You were very mindful in your analysis, able to step outside yourself and rise high enough to see, understand and explain the past, present and future, as well as analyze not only the realities, but also your hopes.  I wish you the best as you navigate your future.

SoT

This morning I was in a bit of a cranky mood.  Just didn't feel great, getting older and feeling groggy until I had my water and vitamins, etc.  I was supposed to have breakfast with friends but a fog delay meant that they'd have to stay home with their children until school started.  I had a regular thought of "geez, I can't even deal with myself, how would I deal with kids on a fog delay."  I thought about how the other ladies would have to pivot and switch up their whole day to accommodate the kids.  I thought of how "easy" I had it because nothing in my day would change.  "See, this is why God didn't make you a mother, you wouldn't be able to handle it."

That's what I told myself.  That God was probably withholding children from me because He knew I couldn't do it.

But I am an idiot with a pity party. 

God, in His INFINATE wisdom, purposely did not make me a mother. 

Not as a punishment.  Not because I'm a weak person.  Not because the "bar" of life is to have children and I fall so low below the bar.

He purposely made me exactly who I am. 

Perhaps my great role is that I needed to be my husbands savior.  (side note: when I googled "savior" to make sure I had the correct spelling I came across the term "savior complex" which I will continue to read up on)

My work is creative, fun and helpful to others but it's not significant.  Aside from my husband, and maybe one or two friends, no one in my life really "needs" me.  I mean, they will be sad when I die but I doubt many people will really mourn me. 

People with children seem to have purpose.  They are raising an entire human being.  A helpless person who NEEDS them.  Without children, what is my role.  What is my purpose?

And why do I spend so much time thinking I fell short of Jesus and need to stress and suffer to make up for it.

Why do I attach all sorts of meaning to having a child?  Because for the most part, I don't really "want" a child.  I haven't tried infertility measures or looked into adoption or even fostering.  I'm not inclined to do any of that.  And yet I feel like a failure.  Selfish, even though I don't consider myself even close to operating in a selfish manner.

Today I considered that maybe my current life is a REWARD for the many hardships I've felt over the years.  The confusing sexual situations, the difficult marriage, the years I was a doormat.  All the years I worked my tail off.  I endure and grew from it all.  Maybe my - quite good - life is my reward?

Maybe God knows exactly what He is doing after all.

Another beautifully written piece of writing, Hopeful Spine! 

While reading your post, I was able to visualize your thoughtful walk as you explored the rooms of your experiences and 🤔 mindful contemplations. 

You wrote: "He purposely made me exactly who I am."  Bingo!! 

My study and understanding, teaches me the the mighty Potter works each lump of clay into a vessel of his own design, consecrating each work of art for the purpose in which he intends. You are individually, hand-formed; an incredibly useful and beautiful work of art!!  You are also specifically pre-designed and actually known by the Potter before you were even formed! 

I find it exceptionally encouraging in my life purposes, to know I am not a mass-produced vessel, but the solo, focal-work of God's creative and sovereign design. I believe I will not realize how incredibly useful I have been in God's unfolding plan with my life, until I am with God the Potter once again, and that the kiln's fiery purpose in my life is to harden me and bring about the changes necessary in me to complete the purposes of his unique design. 

In encouragement for you, a beautiful, specific work of highly useful art!

SoT

Quote from: SonofThunder on April 26, 2023, 08:25:41 AM
I find it exceptionally encouraging in my life purposes, to know I am not a mass-produced vessel, but the solo, focal-work of God's creative and sovereign design. I believe I will not realize how incredibly useful I have been in God's unfolding plan with my life, until I am with God the Potter once again, and that the kiln's fiery purpose in my life is to harden me and bring about the changes necessary in me to complete the purposes of his unique design.
SoT

Thanks so much for the feedback.  It helps me very much to vent, unload and write things here.  I never expect an answer but I very much appreciate your comments and especially this extra special gem.  A few times I've looked back and journey makes sense.  Other times I haven't a clue.

I didn't know that I'd play such a huge role in the transformation of my husband.  When he healed I thought that task was "complete".  But I find myself still working in that capacity and the changes keep happening as we struggle within his family.  It all leads to a better place (eventually) but it all seems so petty.  So silly.  Can this be my purpose?  Surely God doesn't want me to waste my time with such nonsense?  But then I see tiny changes and hope that this family can be healed.  But then I fail and wonder why I care.  What am I really doing here?

I was invited to a womens party thrown by my husband cousin and his family.  A whole other branch of his family tree.  I felt I had grown.  Instead of trying to organize a group gift with my husbands siblings or wait to see if they would include me - I simply rsvped, purchased a gift off the registry, and showed up.  I didn't talk to anyone about it.  I didn't fuss.  I didn't even try to do some of the "extra" stuff I usually do to get favor.  This felt authentic.  This felt good and strong. 

But I started to gloat within.  First, when no one else mentioned the party,  I thought, "Oh, maybe I'm the only one invited."  As the weeks pasts I'd ask my husband if his mother talked about the party or if his sister mentioned it when he saw her.  Then when none of my other SIL's showed up to the party I thought, "wow, this is amazing.  Were they not invited?  I feel special to be here". 

I waited in anticipation for the host to post pics on social media.  Hoping I'd be in the photos and they'd see.  Finally they posted pics and I appeared.  I waited to see if any of my SILs would "like" or comment.  Finally my worst SIL commented on a pic of the guest of honor opening a gift.  She had purchased the gift and I could see her passive aggressive comment that she was publicly letting everyone know that she had sent it.  And I was annoyed.  Still annoyed.  I don't know why.  Certainly it's no surprise that her blood family invited her.  I shouldn't be deflated to learn that others were invited and simply declined.  I should be happy that the guest of honor received this special gift, even if SIL couldn't attend.  It was a nice gift.  Beyond attending, and enjoying, the party - I shouldn't care about any of it.

But she bugs me.  Everything about my husbands family bugs me.  Certainly God is not proud of my pettiness.  I'm not proud of these thoughts and feelings.  And then I go off track and start feeling like a failure in general.  It feels like God made many mistakes when He made me - and I'm working hard to fix them for Him.  I know that isn't right.  I hope I can get over these immature thoughts and be better next time.  To truly appreciate the opportunity to be a guest.  To be less petty in my thoughts.  To not judge a person who is literally not actively insulting or hurting me.  To focus on the good.

SoT - Thank you for the reminder that we will never know the scope of our reach - until we are reunited with Him.  And that God has a unique design.  He makes no mistakes.

Today I said "no".  To a woman I never say "no" to.  While she has provided good things in my past, she has largely caused me stress and anxiety.  And irritation.  She's a user, in a kind so of way.  But a user nonetheless.

Today she:
- disregarded my boundaries of meeting time, which I gave her the benefit of the doubt.
- fake insisted that she was taking care of certain things to "help me along" in this project she needs done.
- made sure to tell me how much she brags about me to people and "tries really hard" to get me extra business.
- gave me unreasonable deadlines and hinted that as a community-minded project that this needed to be done "as cost efficiently as possible."
- gushed about all the new people she was meeting in her new group.  Humbly listed herself as the matriarch and as the wise older woman who is guiding the younger ladies (ladies who are in their 30s mind you)
- wasted my time by chatting about all the people in her life that were counting on her recently.  (I allowed her to chat too long, due to my desire to be friendly)

When I notified her, via a nicely written text, she did not reply.  I could see that she read it but even an hour later she hasn't replied with, "sorry to hear that." or a simple "thanks for the update".  And she won't.  I have learned from past interactions that when you don't do what she wants she drops you for a bit.

I feel a little sick.  Worried.  Guilty.  Sad.  At one time in my life I enjoyed this woman.  Because of her I met a lot of nice people.  Some of who I still enjoy to this day.  Because of her I made money.  She's always had endless projects with her small and large business ideas.  I never made as much money as I deserved, but I did make a profit and I can't blame her for the price tag.  Because of her I own my dream home.  I paid full price for it but she was kind and let me rent for a year while we got our finances in order.  I had to spend the year shuffling around her belongings because she technically owned the place - but still.

I feared saying "no" to her because I didn't want all those nice things to go away.  We had some laughs and she's been genuinely kind over the years.  I don't want to let those things go so I guess I've been accommodating and plastering a smile on my face, trying to see the good.  And being disappointed when she'd "use" me again.

But today I just couldn't  do it.  All these fabulous projects in my life.  All these ideas in my head.  All these opportunities to chase.  I did not, for even a large price tag, want to do her work for her. I reasoned with myself that I could assist on parts of the project.  But I still felt the dread.  And I knew I'd regret it.

So I said no and feel uncomfortable.  But I'm expecting that tomorrow I will thank myself.  And be happier.

Last week my sister in law told me, in passing, that her daughter did not have a good time at a school function.  She was terribly excited about attending but this sweet, popular, teenager ended up being "mean-girled" by her friends.  It ruined the special event for her.  My sister in law was almost in tears talking about it.  We chatted a bit about how "mean girls" shouldn't have a place in our lives.  And that it's good to be free of those sorts of people. 

Over the weekend a family friend made a social media post that was cryptic and passive aggressive.  Something about needing new friends.  It was inappropriate, but this man is still healing from the tragic loss of his wife.  We wondered what it was all about but we're not close enough to this person to really reach out.  On Sunday, while attending a family function, we got our answer.

My husbands sibling, and his wife (mother of the young girl who was "mean-girled"), planned a weekend getaway party with many people and specifically didn't invite this person.  Even though this person has long-time been solidly part of their friend group for many years.  In fact, most of the people attending the event were pall bearers at his wife's funeral.

While they were chatting about their big, fun, epic, party, I guessed that this might have been the source of the cryptic post.  Finally my SIL said, "OH, did you see what HE posted?"  And she showed me the post and said, "I don't care if he's upset.  It was MY birthday and he is SO negative.  I can't have that in my life!"  She tossed her hair when I pointed out that he clearly considered himself a part of their friend group so it's no surprise that he was upset to not be included.  "I don't care if it makes me a bitch.  It was my choice and I said, "NO!". 

I gently said, "I mean, he's still recovering from Wife's tragic death.  Maybe cut him a little slack?"  She replied again that it's been a year since the wife death and she'd be happy to tell him the problem "if he wants to make a thing of this."

And we moved the conversation in another direction.

But this is a perfect example of how this family operates.  Instead of talking to her friend and saying, "Wow, Guy, every weekend you are super negative.  Are you doing okay?"  Or, "By the way Guy, we're planning a party and want to include you but we're worried that you might bring down the tone of the weekend.  Are you okay to go or should we include you on the next one."

I'm not saying that these are easy conversations.  But last week she was almost in tears because her daughter was excluded and this week she's defiantly tossing her hair with zero cares that she hurt a friend.  It's astounding that she finds it okay.  I considered her one of the safer ones in this family.

This is the kind of garbage that happens all the time in this family.  Toxic.  Cold.  Calculating.

I can't mentally survive in this environment.  I'm sick of judging people.  It is too hard to be kind-hearted around these people.  It's too hard to be generous with my thoughts.  I either feel arrogantly superior or fully a failure in their company.

The woman I said "no" to is teaching me valuable lessons.  I ran into her this past weekend and she was polite but cold and indifferent to me.  Friendly enough to my husband.  But not me, the person she once touted (on social media) that I was her "very special, dear friend."

For years I worked FOR her on various projects (and was paid).  For years we worked next to each other (unpaid) on social projects (where I did most of the work and she either claimed credit or actively discredited my work by comparing me to herself).

For years she included in in social outings and I'd go.  Sometimes I didn't feel like it.  But, despite my reservations about her I could admit that she was "overall a nice person" and I would play the part.  I was lying to myself.

I said "no" because I was tired, because I am overworked, because I simply did not want to do her project.  All are justified and real reasons to say "no".  A real friend would have said, "no worries, I completely understand."  Or "Bummer, I wish you were available."  Or even, "It's not like you to say "no", are you okay?"

It's weird - she doesn't usually post on social media but ever since I said "no" she's been posting and kind of bragging about outings with her friends.  It feels personal but maybe it has nothing to do with me.  It's probably my guilt making me feel manipulated.

It doesn't feel good to be treated with cold indifference, but it does feel okay to accept to make this change to the relationship.  I made a mistake.  I spent years investing in a relationship that was clearly one-sided.  I can admit that I wanted to  feel worthy so I did the things that she wanted me to do.  Hearing praise at the end of everything was the drug I needed.  It didn't matter that I gave away my services, or cheated myself on sleep to achieve her goal.  It didn't matter that she would get a lot of the glory.  I mean, it would hurt but I made myself be okay with it because it made me feel "helpful", "good", and worse of all "better" than other people.  I could "let" her take the praise because I knew in my heart that I was the hero.  In my head I'd say to her, "Yeah, I'll let you say those things, but YOU know I'm the one that really did this.".

After my weekend interaction with her I found myself thinking, "Yup, you know who holds the power - ME.  And you can't have me."  It's not exactly gracious.  I'm not proud of my thoughts and I hope someday I no longer have them.

After all, I have to take responsibility for the way she treated me.  I allowed a relationship to reach such a dysfunctional level.  I WANTED to give - as much as she wanted to take.  For years I allowed this unhealthy relationship to flourish.  In a way she has every right to be hurt and angry with me.  I'm not doing the thing she reasonably expects out of me.  I'm different and I have given her no excuse for my change.  She's upset.  I really can't blame her.

Maybe she operates as a user for all the unhealthy reasons that I operate as a people pleaser? 

I'm not sure how to "fix" it.  In my mind this relationship is over.  I broke the chain and she didn't like it.  It's over right?  But now there is this weird relationship in it's place.  Just because I said "no".  It really make a person not want to say "no" again.  What if all my relationships change.  What if no one ends up liking me? 

These are the fears in my heart as I operate as a past people pleaser.  I pray that I can have faith to continue on this path, hoping that I will come out authentic and strong.

Hi Hopeful Spine,

You are doing a great job of mindful analysis of yourself in the interactions with the "no" woman and your SIL.  You are also being strongly self-supportive in your choices. Well done!

You wrote:

"I'm not sure how to "fix" it.  In my mind this relationship is over.  I broke the chain and she didn't like it.  It's over right?  But now there is this weird relationship in it's place.  Just because I said "no".  It really make a person not want to say "no" again.  What if all my relationships change.  What if no one ends up liking me? "

Imo, you want to develop relationships with people who accept and respect a "no" and who trust you enough to give you a "no" also.  If those people are rare, then keep searching. Quality friendships are much better than quantity.

Keep up the fantastic, bold boundaries!

SoT

Quote from: SonofThunder on May 08, 2023, 07:17:56 PM
Imo, you want to develop relationships with people who accept and respect a "no" and who trust you enough to give you a "no" also.  If those people are rare, then keep searching. Quality friendships are much better than quantity.

Keep up the fantastic, bold boundaries!

Thanks so much for your comments.  Yes, the goal is to fill my life with people who respect (and have) boundaries.  I have made two new friends this past couple of years that are slowly becoming important.  With these people I feel good.  I have kept my involvement in their lives to an appropriate level (not offering excessive favors, texting at a lower level than I would have in the past, taking turns with organizing lunches and coffees).  Both woman are very well liked people with wider circles of friends and I truly enjoy them both.  Both women have quirks, strengths and a few things that I am uncomfortable with but I'm learning how to navigate. 

For instance, one friend often bails when she is feeling overwhelmed.  She wanted to take an expensive art class with me so I signed up and looked forward to it.  I had a little bit of reservation but I reasoned that she certainly wouldn't bail on something she put money into.  Well, she did bail.  Luckily I was able to recoup the money but it was a lesson to NOT invest money unless I was comfortable losing it.  To not rearrange my time unless I was okay with an empty hole on my calendar if she cancelled.  She is still a delightful person who is giving and supportive in other ways, but these are the things I am mindful of.

Anyway, I am using these relationships as a barometer of a what to look for in a friend.  I feel pretty good with the new people in my life.  Or when I join a new committee or attend a party.  It's easy for me to chat with a new person, then duck away for a drink (because I don't enjoy them) and never circle back.  It's easy for me to beg off when I don't want to accept an invite to coffee (or whatever).

It's the people in my life who have been around a long time.  Those are the people who I feel I "owe" something to.  I'm different and it's awkward to change the dynamic that has "worked" (not really) for many years.

I guess I just "want" people to straighten up and say the right things and react the right way.  I'm rooting for them so that we can keep the best parts of our relationships intact and stay friends.  Saying "no" to this woman was just as blatant as if I'd gone to a party and pointed my finger at her and said, "I'm sick of you taking advantage of me!"  I could barely do it.  I knew I was going to say "no" when she was sitting right in front of me.  But I waited to do it when it felt safer (via a text).  She didn't reply.  I couldn't respond to her response.  I couldn't tie it up nicely with a bow.  I feel like I did something terrible.  Like I owe her something now.  I feel like I have an enemy.  Yes, I need to just let her go until she has her own personal growth.  But in the meantime I'm very sad that someone is disappointed in me.  Even a person who clearly used me.

I appreciate your kind words - it helps me to KNOW that I'm on the right path, even if I'm not super confident traveling it.

Hi Hopeful,
I've read your first post from yesterday twice. It resonated.

I know how appealing it is to want to be the Nice Girl and to give. I used to think things like 'oh well, I'll get my reward sometime, and I can in the meantime be the Bigger Person'.
Then I also began to see that this means being a doormat. And that people who habitually take , or ask unreasonable 'favours', WON'T generally return them. Even if you're in need. They're always too busy, too stressed . Blah blah blah.
And they can be VERY good at the old intermittent reinforcement. You're so wonderful, we're so alike etc.

And I now see that it's my fault as well. If I had better boundaries then they would not have taken advantage. Ps I don't even think that people who do this do it necessarily deliberately. They are how they were allowed to be, by people like me.

Sad, eh ?

Also, you spoke of 'expectations'. That resonated because my Sis ( fleas ?) contacted me recently. After 2 years of LC . Because I'd asked various people please not to emotionally dump on me any more. So SHE basically stopped talking to me. She now professes  confusion that we'd become perhaps distant ? We talked for 2 hours on the phone. I was much more challenging than I have been in the past, but we rounded up by saying ok let's move on.
Apparently another Sis has now also ..gone VLC with her.
But, back to the point. One thing that I challenged her on was that she maintains that the issue is that people EXPECT behaviours of her.
And I said not true. That when I relate to another person I may HOPE that they respond reciprocally, but I'd never expect them to.

Your ex friend could hope you'd do xyz for her, but she'd not be able to expect it. Because we can't control other people's behaviour. I don't really like this definition, but really everything is a transaction.

And , btw, the social media posturing is probably just that. Look what people not in my circle are missing out on ! I don't need anyone else to make me a success, emotionally financially or in terms of respect.
Sounds a bit like she's looking for affirmation ?
Or maybe it's even aimed somewhat at you ? Especially as she knows you well enough to press your buttons ?
And is her cold demeanour designed to get you running back ?
It's all in the IDD cycle. Idealise, devalue , discard.

Quote from: feralcat on May 09, 2023, 04:36:52 AM
I know how appealing it is to want to be the Nice Girl and to give. I used to think things like 'oh well, I'll get my reward sometime, and I can in the meantime be the Bigger Person'.
---
And I now see that it's my fault as well. If I had better boundaries then they would not have taken advantage. Ps I don't even think that people who do this do it necessarily deliberately. They are how they were allowed to be, by people like me.
---
It's all in the IDD cycle. Idealise, devalue , discard.

Hi Feralcat!

Thanks for chiming in.  And especially thanks for dropping the nugget about IDD.  I looked it up.  The article I read focused on romantic relationships but it all applied to the various failing friendships I have.  To be fair to myself - I have a lot of good people in my life.  Most of the people I struggle with are people who have a reputation for being users and takers.  I was just the weakest person in the room, on the committee, on the payroll.  Users know who to use - and they all found me.  My "no" friend has a trail of used people behind her in the various industries that she dabbles in.  I can look at that stream of people and KNOW that I am not wrong - but my Spine hasn't caught up yet.

Idealize - Yes, you are so wonderful.  We are two peas in a pod and are the BEST of friends.  Only WE like this sort of stuff, right?  I'm so glad to have a friend as special as you.

Devalue - Oh you made cookies for the event?  I wish I would have had time.  I would have made my famous pie.  I've won all sort of awards for baked goods.  But people do seem to like basic chocolate chip.
I'm glad they are eating your little cookies.

Discard - What?  You can't help me? Now I have to befriend and schmooze a new person in order to get them to do my work?  I don't have time to train a new person to do the same work for free AND be happy to help me. You've wasted my time!

Boundaries - Had I said to this person a LONG time ago, "thanks for your business I was happy to help you with XYZ.  But I can't give away my services for free - even to good friends.  I keep things fair and do XYZ at full price and I will do certain other XYZ at a reduced price."  Then later, "I feel like I've been doing a lot of XYZ for a reduced price and it's taking me away from my regular work flow.  We're going to have to revisit this situation."  Then later, "remember how I told you I'm having trouble keeping up at work?  Well, I need to take a break from your projects for a bit."  Then this last situation I could have easily said, "Sorry - can't help.  My schedule is full."  With out guilt or stress.

There are so many ways I could have shut down this person but I just didn't want to be uncomfortable so I choose to be "the bigger person" and carry on.  And now?  I'm super uncomfortable and scared.  I let her befriend me.  I let her devalue me and somewhere along the line, I've assumed responsibility for her happiness.  Now that she has discarded me I am bereft of what to do next.  In the past I would have texted her again the following day and said, "you know what, my schedule opened up.  Let me get something together for you."

The article I read illustrated the narcissistic well.  This sort of person "feeds" off of good natured (and boundary-less) people.  When the narcissist is in the presence of a caring, helpful and giving person they can feel like they too are caring, helpful and giving.  But once the victim (applies a reasonable boundary, and) stops being caring, helpful and giving - the narcissist feels starved and promptly moves on to another "caring, helpful and giving" person. 

It sounds like you've handled your sister well.  I admire people who make the choice to go NC.  And the fact that another sister has gone VLC speaks volumes about what you are dealing with.  I like reading about how others have established and enforced boundaries.  Have you figured out how to stop being the "bigger person" and operate life without regard to being classified as "the nice girl"?

I have found that a lot of my enabling behavior comes from my reluctance to endure uncomfortable emotions, shame, guilt, fear, and that's why I go along. Setting boundaries has meant for me that I force myself to face and feel these unpleasant emotions. I use a lot of mindfulness meditations to be able to stick to my boundaries and stare down my fears about that.

Quote from: notrightinthehead on May 11, 2023, 02:36:13 AM
I have found that a lot of my enabling behavior comes from my reluctance to endure uncomfortable emotions, shame, guilt, fear, and that's why I go along. Setting boundaries has meant for me that I force myself to face and feel these unpleasant emotions. I use a lot of mindfulness meditations to be able to stick to my boundaries and stare down my fears about that.

Bingo!  When something uncomfortable pops up I get a sort of sick feeling.  Then, when I agree, I mindfully say, "okay, it's fine.  Deal with it.  Just do XYZ and it will be okay."  And I do the annoying "XYZ" and get very resentful but I keep it to myself and I do feel good at the end of it.  But it's not a healthy good.  It's self-rightous and superior.  Plus I'm happy that the only person upset is ME.  And I always reward myself afterward.  I'll feel justified to let myself read for hours instead of taking care of a task that needs to be done.  I'll reward myself with fast food for lunch if I finish a big favor for someone.  Or get ice cream AFTER having the fast food.  Lots of things make me happy and I selfishly over-indulge when I believe I "deserve" it. 

These are not every day decisions but it sure does put a mentally unhealthy spin on the things I do.

For the last couple years I've still been a people pleaser but - I was at least mindful of what I was doing.  It's just taking so damn long to get to this point.  And people aren't behaving how I want and it's really making me irritated.  I can't wait to be done with all this unhealthy thinking.

I'm taking stock today.  I've had a few situations that have low key been bugging me and I finally spilled it all out to ask for an honest opinion from the most brutally honest person I know - my husband.

This man has challenged me more that any person I know.  He has hurt me. He has loved me.  I've been at the very high and the very low with him.  It's a profound relationship that only makes sense when I pause in the journey and reflect on all the things we've been through.  He has held me up and he has let me down.  I have covered for him when I shouldn't have.  I have used him to save face when I was in the wrong.  I have hidden behind him. I have selfishly used him for my own glory.  He has called me out, sometimes publicly.  He has cheerful taken the fall for me a few times.  He knows who bugs me.  He know when I should not be pushed.  He's angrily kept his mouth shut when I am the level of stubborn that won't hear anything.

I still struggle with parts of our relationship and some of these struggles involved my self esteem.  Some and due to his.  It is the hardest relationship I carry - but it is the most important in my life.  The most authentic.  And authenticity is my pursuit.

He told me some truths.  When I laid out the "problems" I have in my relationships he was able to be objective.  Without telling me what to do he told me how HE would deal with my problems.  And it was the exact opposite of how I am inclined to operate.  When I told him my reasoning on how I want to proceed he explained how my actions would look to the other person.  (too needy, too rigid, etc.)

It occurs to me now - as I'm typing this - that perhaps a lot of my problems are because:

- I get affected by a situation. 
- I know in my heart what I want to do but I don't do it.
- I hold back, knowing that my inclinations aren't quite right but I don't know why.  I don't want to hurt someone but mostly I don't want to appear demanding, pushy or needy.
- I then either do a toned down version of what I really want to do, or I do nothing and sort of wait for something to happen.  This is when I really start to stress.
- When the solution appears I am never happy.  Either I get what I want or I am disappointed.  When I get what I want I'm never happy because it usually means the other person is disappointed (either reasonably or not).  I struggle with feeling terrible for upsetting anyone - even the tiny littlest bit.  On the flip side - when I am disappointed (again, either reasonably or not) I struggle to feel worthy.  I spiral a bit.  I do not pout or become manipulative with the person.  The person will likely never know how upset I am.  But I will internally crumble and I struggle to understand what has happened.

After reading up on a few new things I'm coming to realize that my problems are mostly due to low self-esteem.  And I find that so complicated.  Because I do think I'm a great person.  I know ALL my flaws but I also acknowledge my many talents.  I know I am pretty for my age (not a looker but I clean up nice).  I know that I have good friends who like me and that I am friendly enough to get along with most anyone.  I know I am smart in some ways - even if I'm not super smart in others.  I am super happy being by myself.  I enjoy lots of things that I can do on my own.  Or even by myself in a group setting.

But I seem to NEED validation from others.  Even from my very special husband who has been through everything with me.  I don't struggle to score it.  I don't fish for compliments or brag.  In the last couple years when extra special things have happened I quietly waited for people to notice.  I didn't post and do a humble brag or anything.  When they do I'm always awkward and embarrassed.  Why do I have that security in myself but crumble when I don't receive it from others or squirm when I do?

Sometimes I worry that I am actually a PD person.  I worry I might be the narcissist.  A good one - but a narcissist all the same.

Hopeful,

That was highly thought-out, creatively written and well organized on the page.  A pleasure to read.  Your writing and traits combined, seem very 'human' to me, and potentially on the high-radar HSP side (Dr. Elaine Aron's work and book). 

You also took the time to think deeply, mentioning some good traits of your husband. Your mindfulness, self described lack of manipulative behaviors, self-awareness and even self-critical high-radar noticing does not, imo, align with PD traits. 

A healthy, balanced self-image is a good thing!  I have read some writer's opinion that all people should have a dose of 'narcissism' to help balance, but imo the term 'narcissism' by itself already defines a unbalanced tip of the scale toward 'self'', so I disagree with some authors description of using the term to convey "healthy".  Imo, healthy self-esteem is better. 

I am a moderate HSP and I can be very self critical and also very assuming about another person's feelings. I believe many times, my high-radar assumes and can assume sensitive.  I am trying to learn to accept my high radar as a 'noticer', but turn down my 'assumer' dial.  I like noticing, for noticing's sake, but I want to simply mentally catalog my noticing, vs taking it onward to assumptions. 

You wrote:

"When I get what I want I'm never happy because it usually means the other person is disappointed (either reasonably or not)"

How do you actually/truthfully know they are disappointed? 

SoT

Hopeful, there is a lot of self reflection going on in your post. Does it come from a kind, loving and accepting position?
Good self esteem comes from within. Nobody and nothing on the outside can give it to you.

Two sentences in your post:

I know in my heart what I want to do but I don't do it.

How about you feel the fear and do it anyway? How can you get yourself to DO it?

When I get what I want I'm never happy because it usually means the other person is disappointed

In addition to what SoT wrote - what about allowing the other person to take care of their own feelings, whatever they might be? What about taking care of your side of the street only? You are not responsible how another person feels nor can you control or change it. That's an illusion. And a bad one. It assumes you have control over another persons feelings when you are actually not even in control of your own feelings. We feel what we feel and it's hard enough to cope with our own feelings.
With some self discipline, and I am sure you have lots of that, you can bring your mind back to yourself when it wanders and tries to read other people's minds. Tell yourself- I can only try to make myself happy and do the  right thing for myself. I will allow others to do the same.

Quote from: SonofThunder on May 13, 2023, 10:12:04 AM
How do you actually/truthfully know they are disappointed? 
SoT

I read this shortly before I left my office and I actually gasped.  So true.  I operate as if I'm all knowing.  It never occurred to me that I'd be wrong about what they are feeling.  This really helped me think differently.

Quote from: notrightinthehead on May 14, 2023, 01:21:40 AM
Good self esteem comes from within. Nobody and nothing on the outside can give it to you.
___

In addition to what SoT wrote - what about allowing the other person to take care of their own feelings, whatever they might be? What about taking care of your side of the street only? You are not responsible how another person feels nor can you control or change it. That's an illusion. And a bad one. It assumes you have control over another persons feelings when you are actually not even in control of your own feelings. We feel what we feel and it's hard enough to cope with our own feelings.

I appreciate these words.  And I especially reflect upon this when you are actually not even in control of your own feelings.  This is a hard truth.  And you are right - thinking I'm managing others is an illusion.

This part too is a truth I completely agree with Good self esteem comes from within. Nobody and nothing on the outside can give it to you.

I had a few things happen over the weekend that I need to sort out.  But the lesson is exactly what you are saying.  Good self esteem comes from within.  That is the core of all health relationships and interactions.  The hard part is to find healthy ways to gain positive self esteem so that you can break free from the life that you earned from the negative self esteem.  Everything is an illusion.

Thank you both for chiming in and using what you know to help a stranger.  I appreciate it so much.

Feeling out of sorts today.  It was a big weekend of graduation parties with my husbands family.  Nothing was wrong.  No one hurt me.  In fact I had an opportunity to chat with my SIL who wrote me the apology letter after 7 years of estrangement.  It was a good conversation, superficial and easy.

My husband and I helped at the huge party.  We did this to free up duties for the 5 sets of parents who were jointly hosting.  We knew they needed/wanted to chat with everyone in attendance.  We did this happily and our efforts were appreciated with kind words by them.

But.

The whole weekend I felt like I traveled to a foreign country and a family decided to let us attend so that we could see what an American graduation party looked like.  I watched them all socializing with each other, taking photos, laughing.  I could certainly stand in a circle of people and be welcomed but I wasn't really part of them.  Out of town family friends where greeted more warmly than we were.

At the end of the party the groups broke up.  Some headed to an after party.  Some went to a bar, the out of town people went back to the homes where there were staying.  We were not invited or included anywhere.  Which I really didn't want to be.  I just wanted to go home.  But it just hurts to see everyone fitting in somewhere and not be included.

The mothers of the graduates all had a special friend or family member helping them.  Being their rock while hosting a stressful event.  Their best friend.  I don't have this in my life and I want it.  But it's not something you just go out and "get".  You have to have that connection, that mutual desire of friendship and sisterhood with another woman. 

I am learning that it's not "their" fault that I don't have this.  It's true that my efforts of friendship towards them were eventually rebuffed.  And that hurt.  But it only means we weren't a good fit.  I acknowledge that it's totally okay that they found other people.  Some of them already had these special people before they even met me.  It's not their fault that I haven't found my "best friend" yet.

At this party I did what felt natural to me.  I was friendly to the people who were around me.  I gave honest compliments to the hosts of the party.  I quietly enjoyed the music, I didn't force myself to be super chatty or "fun".  I was helpful and found comfort in the tasks.  But I always feel bad about myself after these parties.  I was true to myself but it seem that the more authentic I am - the less I fit in with this group of people that make up so much of my life. I think the solution is to wish them well and make them less of my life.

My PD sister in law was nice to me at the party.  She made meaningful comments such as, "thank you for helping, it means more than you know."  She cheerfully talked about an upcoming event that we're attending and acted like we were going to have that best time.  I smiled and gray rocked.  I started to feel like maybe, JUST maybe I was wrong about her.  But at the end of the party she lied to the other hosting couples about something so that she'd get to take home more than her share of leftovers.  And I remembered exactly how she is and how I do not want to be close to her.

I'm doing some nice things for myself today.  Tomorrow I have a doctors appointment and this will be my first step towards a healthy body and eventually healthy mind.

Hi Hopeful,

You wrote:

" I was true to myself but it seem that the more authentic I am - the less I fit in with this group of people that make up so much of my life. I think the solution is to wish them well and make them less of my life."

Imo, that reads as great mindful self awareness and that you are learning more about your authentic self, and you are willing to admit that your authentic self needs a new crowd.  That all sounds healthy to me. 

SoT

At the beginning of my journey I was terribly upset with most everyone in my life.  I was genuinely hurt at times.  At other times I found offense when I should have just moved on with my day.  On my way to my doctors appointment today I thought of all these people in my life. 

My old friends (the ones I gently let slip away, the ones I still tolerate, the ones I am still open to) live in my memories.  Maybe some fun times were had but our lives are different now.  I've come to accept this.  I texted an old friend on her birthday and wished her well after maybe 3 years of no contact.  It was nice but neither of us have picked up the relationship and that is fine.  Another old friend invited me to her kids graduation.  I haven't seen her in over a year but I'm looking forward to seeing her again.

My new friends.  The ones I have authentically included in my life.  These are people I feel good around.  These are people I do favors for - or not.  These are people I invite to new experiences.  These are people in my back pocket (as I am in theirs).  I'm good with these people.  I enjoy them.

Those dangerous people.  The users.  The bullies.  The ones who disrupt how I like things to be.  I'm not over them but I have found that when they are out of my life - I don't think about them.  I would like to continue to work on my radar for these people and avoid any potential for offense.  That will be a life long battle I fear.  But I can figure it out.

My own family.  I have no grudges.  I love more than they do - I know this.  It's still complicated but at the end of the day - it's completely okay.  I love holidays with them.  I'm sad about how I never had children and sometimes being around them makes me sad but it's my own private thing to bear.

My work is amazing.  My husbands work is amazing.  We are so lucky.  Despite working hard, and always having to deal with issues with our properties - I'm living in my ideal marriage in my special forever home.  When I tell people where I live, people say, "yes, that house is perfect for you!  You were born to live in that house."  It's that obvious.

I know who I am.  I know I have value.  I know that my flaws are mine to solve and that I have enough good in me to even everything out.  I like me.  Maybe I don't always like how I look or how I handle a specific situation.  But I LIKE who I am.  I like how I live.  I'm grateful that my health is good, that I look nice.  That I have clothes and makeup to make me look even nicer if I want.  I like my hobbies.   I like being honest.  I like all the ways I care for others, especially now that I'm learning how to care appropriately.

It all boils down to this.

When I look at the whole of my life - the main thing I struggle with is my husbands family.  I don't respect them.  Even when they are good, they prove themselves to be shady for one reason or another.  They are selfish.  All those little slights and digs add up and soon - I became a pathetic mess, wondering how I could ever be good enough.  It happened so subtly.  Even his mother, who is sweet and kind - is chasing popularity.  I've seen her befriend someone in the family, only to drop them when she attracts the attention of one of the more popular siblings.  I've seen her be disappointed when she has to catch a ride with us when she'd rather be in the car with the more fun people.  His dad is an aggressive person who drinks heavily and becomes combative. 

Much like a narcissist gloms onto sweet natured and generous people in order to "take" those attributes for themselves, I seem to have attached myself to this family.  For superficial reasons.  I know their secrets but I also know that they appear, to everyone else, to be a fun, popular, successful and close knit family. 

I admit that at one time in my life I was so excited to join a "fun, popular, successful and close knit" family.  Because maybe then I'd be those things by association.  For awhile I felt that way.  I remember going to a Christmas midnight mass with them and feeling so special watching my husband and his brothers fiddle with their ties and it became a silly memorable private joke between all of us.  In the candlelight of the church I felt good, and happy.  I was excited to run through the snowy parking lot and race back to their house to start the party.  I remember things like that so vividly and that is the sort of thing I've been chasing.

But it didn't last long.  I wasn't "one of them".  In fact the following year his sister did something sneaky and pull a prank on me when we returned from mass.  I let it pass.  At first, I added to the cache because I was friendly, cute and creative.  But I had to be careful to not be too much of these things.  If I disrupted the power and energy of the group it felt bad. 

That's how it all started but somewhere along the line I changed tactics.  Now I'm trying to sort of reverse-narcissist this family.  I'm fighting to pass my positive attributes into them so that we can ALL be great.  And at this point (if I'm being honest) I feel like I'm the better person and that if they were all a little more like me - it would be great.  We'd meet in the middle.  I keep trying but they keep rejecting me.  At first for being too much of what they wanted me to be.  And now - for being something they don't want to be at all.

This is all very rambling but I'm trying hard to compartmentalize this so I can accept it, put it away, and move on. 

I need to accept that these people are not my project.  They are real people with real challenges.  They are not a club that gives me access to a fabulous life.  They do not have the real, authentic qualities that I want anyway.  They are not (at least not any longer) my ideal of what I want my life to be.  They function very well without me.  Very well.  They were raised in a way that I do not understand.  They behave the way they do because that is how they had to behave to survive within their family.  They've spent their whole life in these roles.  This works for them.  They don't want to change. 

My efforts are like fine grit sandpaper to a solid clock of wood.  Sure, if I rub hard enough I might be able to sculpt them into something I like.  But it will take years and it will still be flawed.  And my sand paper will be worn and unless.

It's wise to stop chasing them.  It's okay to accept that, for years, I was wrong in my efforts and in my thinking.  It's okay to realize that the special moments will produce a glimmer of joy and an assurance of knowledge that everything will go back to how it has always been.  That my place in this family will remain unchanged.

In my insecurities, I found offense at every turn.  Even when they didn't deliberately hurt me - it hurt.  And yet, I am the very person I am - no matter how they treat me. 

They don't have the power to take away my fun friends, my pastimes, my social media presence in my industry.  They can't break my marriage or change my husband.  They don't have access to my own family, they don't have a say in how I paint my house.  I don't have to consult them and hope they admire my vacation plans.  I don't need them to admire my marriage or my husband's achievement.  I don't have to give them a medical report and open myself to scrutiny.  I don't need to arrive on time and I don't need to stay as long as his mother wants me to - ever.  I don't have to gain permission to bring a special dessert to the cookout.  I can wear what I want so that when I leave I will be dressed as ME and not how I think I need to dress. 

They will NOT like me more or less. 
They will not respect me any more or less.
They will not wish they had done things differently so that we could be closer.
They will not consider me fun, popular or successful.

And that is more than okay.

 :chestbump:
Bravo !
Your descriptions are amazing.
I commend you on your insight and how far you have travelled. In such a short time really.

Ps your descriptions of interactions with DHs family echo mine, but with my FOO. In the better times I can feel like you seem to , when things get gnarly it's hard not to slide back into bad habits , fears and ruminations. Luckily not so often now .
I'll see if I can 'save' your last post somewhere. It's a good example of healthy thinking. I'll read it when I need a kick up the proverbial ....

Quote from: feralcat on May 24, 2023, 02:05:23 AM
Bravo !
Your descriptions are amazing.
I commend you on your insight and how far you have travelled. In such a short time really.

Thanks for commenting.  I'm 48 and I feel like I've been struggling with myself for my whole life.  The last 4 or 5 years that I've really dedicated myself to sorting things out has felt like an eternity.  I regret all the years I watched others live their best life.  I spent that time lamenting, going down wrong paths and just  waiting for someone else to change my life.  Sometimes I reread my posts and I'm embarrassed that I put all this out there.  But it has helped me and I'm glad, in a small way, it helped you too.

I feel for you to have these issues with your FOO.  I see how my husband struggles when the hurts hit too close.  His family was so exclusive and tight that they WERE his best friends.  But now?  People literally disregard his texts but fawn all over everyone elses messages.  If he speaks up about his hurt on any number of subjects he receives passive aggressive comments about how he should do more.  They list the ways he has failed in any given situation.  He struggles to make and maintain real friendships.  He just never learned how.

It's frustrating how the tides shift and the person we all disrespected a few years ago are now kings and it is someone else's turn to be on the outside. This popularity contest, the weird three legged races we put ourselves through to prove something.  The pissing matches and the hot buttons.  This is not how we should treat family.  The matriarch and the patriarch shouldn't be allowing it but, guess what, they are actually the ones setting the tone.  There seems to be no hope.

I either feel like I'm in high school or on a reality show when I'm around these people.  When a new person comes into  a gathering (like a boyfriend of a niece or something) these people trip over themselves trying to impress the newbie.  When the local priest visits - it's like we have ROYALTY in the backyard.  Plates of food, a special drink, "here take my chair".  "Hey did you know that our family is super fun?  You're going to have the time of your life here!"  (Cue the karaoke machine, elaborate drinks, and literal card tricks).  Then his mother wanders over with her drink and whatever crazy hat she's wearing (because she's "fun") and she "casually" says to the newbie, "Oh yeah, this is us.  This is how we always are."  And she's proud of her family who is very great on the surface but more dysfunctional than she'll ever admit.

Most people just say, "wow".  Because what else can they say.  The sporadic  visitors love it.  And the family loves them.  Those who stick around learn the drill - and that is when I can make a new friend.

For the record I don't feel good about all this.  I want to be honest and authentic without all the traces of superior judgement.  I know I SOUND terrible typing all these negative things.  I want to get to a real level of respect and love for them, despite their upbringing and way of life.  I just don't want to be hurt in the process.  Maybe someday I'll be able to do it.  From a distance.

This is a silly thing but I am only posting this here - so I don't complain about it in my real life.

There is an event happening tonight.  It's a silly little program that harkens back to a childhood love.  It's not a big deal but I posted the link on social media and tagged a few people who also loved this thing with a casual note of, "hey I'm going if anyone wants to join."  Happily several people said, "oh, that looks fun. I think I'll go too."  Some are bringing their kids.  Some are going to invite their own friends.  They all said, "see you there!"  If figured when it got closer I'd reach out to see if anyone wanted to share a ride.

I tagged my PD SIL.  I didn't want to but we used to have regular conversations about our love for this thing so I really "couldn't" not tag her without creating an offense.  I tagged her.  I expected her to make a "aren't we great friends" sort of comment and then collect her own friends and go without me.

Well, instead of grabbing her own friends - she tried to take mine.

The event is tonight.  This past weekend I was volunteering at an event saw "Ann", who later texted me and asked if I wanted to share a ride.  Then I ran into another gal "Monica", who said, "Hey, do you still want to go to that thing?  I guess Ann and PD SIL are going to ride together so maybe we can all share a ride?"

I immediately knew I had been "gotten" again by my SIL.

Well, I also ran into SIL at this event and she was her usual (super sweet), "Oh, look at you!  Oh, aren't your earrings so cute!  Oh, it sucks you have to work at this event, are you having any fun?"  I blew all of these things off but I was seething inside.  Finally I asked her, "oh hey, do you still want to go to that event on Monday?  I thought maybe we could ride together?"  And she replied, "Oh, Ann and Monica and I are going to share a ride."

What she SHOULD have said was, "Oh, Ann and Monica and I are going to share a ride. Would you like to join us."

"Oh, that's nice that you have that worked out." is how I replied.  She said nothing.

So 4 woman are going to the same event.  One woman gathers two woman to attend with her.  Same woman doesn't include 4th woman, even though she's a sister-in-law.  Even though the 4th woman was the one who shared the event with everyone else.  Even thought the 4th woman asks her if she wants to share a ride.  Even though the other two woman included 4th woman to join.

As it turns out, Monica texted me to let me know she has an errand to run after the event tonight so opted to drive herself.  I decided that I also had things to do after the event and I opted to drive separately as well.  We made plans to meet outside the venue at a certain time.  Then I sent Ann a text to get her up to speed. I presume she will continue to carpool with SIL.  Everyone is happy and excited to attend tonight.

What a learning experience.  I did get angry immediately when I learned that SIL was arranging all these rides but I made myself stop and consider that everything might have happened organically.  Even now, I do not know for certain that SIL asked them and not me.  I am willing to believe that one of the other ladies suggested it and it snowballed.  That's fine.  Understandable.  Normal.

It wasn't until I actually spoke with SIL that I allowed myself to feel the slight.  When she DIDN'T invite me to share a ride it made me realize how much she doesn't like me.  (Or feels threatened by me?)

The other two ladies were kind, inclusive and honest about the other conversations.  Why wouldn't they be?  They would treat any woman they way they treated me.

But SIL was evasive and not interested in including me in a flipping car pool.  When I directly asked her if she wanted to share a ride she didn't answer me.  She only told me who she was already riding with.  She didn't say, "oh sorry, already got a ride."  Or, what she should have said, "Oh, I'm riding with Ann and Monica but there's room."  That's just . . . not nice at all.  I don't want to be friends with a person who treats others this way. 

I'm a little pissed that she's going tonight but I only have myself to blame since I'm the one who tagged her.

But that's the difference between us.  I would have felt bad if later she learned that I invited a bunch of people to this event and didn't even tell her.  With our history on the subject and the fact that we're related - I just couldn't have done it.  But she's totally okay pretending that she's a sweetheart, then hogging my people and going without me.

But I feel okay about how I handled it.  I didn't vent or complain to the two innocent woman.  Instead of making it a group drama and trying to "ah-ha" my SIL, I simply messaged both woman who had messaged me and let them know I was driving separately. We all made plans to meet outside the venue at a specific time.  We'll all go in as a group and sit together and enjoy the event.  That's pretty much what I expect would happen anyway.

The old me would have messaged SIL and tried to eek something out of her.  Maybe I would have try to guilt her.  Or ask a leading question to get her to admit something.  Or I'd passive aggressively do a group message and try to assert some sort of control.  Or suggest drinks after.  I don't know.  I guess I finally learned that nothing works.

I'm not as upset about this as it might seem.  Like I said, I'm just laying it out here so I can "get over it" and enjoy the night.  This is how I know I'm dealing with a PD person.  Her little tricks made a simple fun outing - turn into an situation where my feelings were hurt and I had to do some mental gymnastics to get through it.  I hope in the future I will be able to weather these sorts of things more quickly.

She was as I expected her to be.  Overly nice to me but sort of dismissive when I'd answer.  She sort of picked Monica to be her buddy and made sure to sit near her and made extra efforts to talk to her.  She tried to lure me into agreeing with something that I didn't want to discuss.  I found it very easy to chat with everyone.  I felt comfortable around everyone except her.  It was difficult to kindly "grey rock" her while being authentic with everyone else.  I'm glad I did what I felt was right (given the mutual love of event topic) but won't do this again.

Of course you know what you could and should have done differently.

I tagged my PD SIL. I didn't want to but we used to have regular conversations about our love for this thing so I really "couldn't" not tag her without creating an offense.  I tagged her.  I expected her to make a "aren't we great friends" sort of comment and then collect her own friends and go without me.

Maybe next time you listen to yourself. This time you talked yourself into doing something against your wants. Maybe next time you follow your wants. Others do it. Why can't you? Your sil doesn't want to share a ride with you. She's honest. You don't want to tell her, but you talk yourself into doing it anyway. You are allowed to do something that might-or might not (how can you be sure?)- offend someone. You are allowed.

Quote from: notrightinthehead on June 06, 2023, 12:12:18 AMMaybe next time you listen to yourself. This time you talked yourself into doing something against your wants. Maybe next time you follow your wants. Others do it. Why can't you? Your sil doesn't want to share a ride with you. She's honest. You don't want to tell her, but you talk yourself into doing it anyway. You are allowed to do something that might-or might not (how can you be sure?)- offend someone. You are allowed.

Thank you for your feedback - it's truly helpful.  I realize today that I wasted a LOT of my time yesterday posting about this "silly little event".  I spent even more in mental energy.  I was (and still am) proud of how I was feeling.  The reality is that this whole thing was a "win" for me - even if it took a lot of effort to get there. 

But you are right - there is a next step that is more significant.  To acknowledge that it would be kind to include her - but to choose the path that will serve me best.  With this experience behind me - I will remember to confront that uncomfortable feeling, even if it doesn't feel "nice".

God is testing me today.  The devil is tempting me.  Lately I've been low key struggling but trying to rise above.

I'm finally addressing some health issues with a doctors appointment. 
I've been checking out of relationships and behaviors that are hard. 
I got through a hard weekend of volunteering that would usually really make me spiral in the moment. 
I made a significant post that would usually put me on high alert on my social media response. 
I even half-way dealt with my PD SIL.

It's hard to not worry about my health. 
It's hard to decide (and then say) "no" when I'd usually say "yes". 
It's hard to not watch other people at the volunteer event and compare myself to their skills and friendships. 
It's hard to put myself out there online and not rush to view comments.
It's hard to grey rock my SIL.

These things might not be hard for others but they are very hard for me, especially when it all happens within a week.  I got though okay.  Good even.  I've had some great moments and lots of joy.

Buy the hits keep coming.

More medical things to navigate.
My "friend" (the one I recently said "no" to) asked for something reasonable that I will assist with.  It's okay but it's just another "thing" to deal with.
Someone else, (who doesn't like me because I said "no") is back in the picture.  She's doing something that I will have to address soon.
My mom is being unreasonable about my sister and it's getting harder to gently shut her down.
PD SIL did something extra nice to thank me for my help at her party.  Once again I have to protect my feelings while grey rocking gratitude.

This has all been within the last 24 hours - after a challenging week.  I'm DONE!!

I just feel like the Devil sees my progress and is trying to get me off track.  I'm feeling good about my choices but it's getting REAL hard to not spiral.  A lot of prayer this morning and the day is still falling apart.  I need to get this out in the universe and then get focused on God, my goals, and more positive things.

Quote from: Hopeful Spine on June 10, 2023, 08:52:05 AMI'm finally addressing some health issues with a doctors appointment. 
It's hard to not worry about my health. 

I can sympathise with you re health!

I sent husband & kid to visit grandma in another state Memorial Day weekend
after letting dog out, I came inside & passed out on the floor
neighbors noticed dog out ALL day & called husband
ambulance took me to hospital where I was in ICU at first

I'm very, very lucky the neighbors got involved & called my husband!!!

I took a little trip.  I was gone for 48 hours with a newish friend who was "celebrating" five years of widowhood.  It was more like her "I'm going to really start living again" sort of anniversary.  She's young, with 4 young kids and she's been doing a lot these past five years. In the course of this long road trip we laughed a ton!  It was a comfortable time of speaking up, making choices about our plans.  Compromises on schedules, room temperature and dining.  It was the best time I'd had in years. 

I am so inspired by how she grew from her unfortunate loss of her husband. Her ability to turn her back from the people and things in her life that drag her down or bring her stress.  She simply doesn't have time for everything so she gives her attention to joy.  She makes big choices.  She ruffles feathers.  People upset her, she has challenges, but she turns to her children and chooses to not engage with the people who don't matter. 

I have another friend who fought cancer and came out with the same attitude.  She changed her circle of people, made choices and set up boundaries that sometimes seem rigid.
 While these woman are sort of unrelenting - they are strong, determined and successful.  Proud and content with the lives they've rebuilt.

I have been through a lot with my husbands very public infidelity.  That might have been over 12 years ago but I never properly took control of my life in the way they have.  I lived small because I was humiliated.  I made careful choices because I didn't want to relive anything painful.  I gobbled up attention and support from anyone who would give it.  I wasn't picky.  I welcomed any sort of inclusion.  I didn't get a meal train.  People didn't openly pray for me in church.  My situation was uncomfortable enough that even kind people didn't know what to do.  I focused on my husband (who I wanted to divorce) because he was suicidal. 

My marriage is healed.  I am successful.  But I'm a complete mess inside.  I have stretches of time where I am very pleased with myself.  But mostly I'm angry with a lot of people who don't matter.  I'm angry about how I let people disregard me.  I'm angry that I didn't challenge people.  I made excuses, let them off the hook, and continued to be their friend - even though they were shitty to me.

Right now my husband is stressed about a new business venture and things have been tension-filled.  I'm not liking how he's talking to me and I constantly worry if I should speak up or have a bit more compassion.  I fear that if I don't he will continue on and become his father.

On the road trip I told my friend my whole story and now I regret it.  I didn't need to share.  This is old news.  I shouldn't have betrayed my husband by telling his secrets.  My friend was supportive and expressed many times that she has a lot of respect for my strength.  She's impressed to know that a person like my husband can redeem himself.  But I really wish I wouldn't have told her.  Even though she was kind, I feel judged and dirty again.  Pathetic.

I really want to take these new feelings and use the inspiration of my friends to make some changes.  No more stewing about in-laws.  Focus on how I WANT my business to grow.  Gather with real friends.  Enjoy life.  Talk to my husband.  Block out the noise.

I have a voice.  I have a social media following.  I have a better handle on the people in my life and I've even added people that I feel equal with.  Why can't I let go of things and move on with determination?  Why do I always feel like I am waiting for something to happen?  Why do I feel so incredibly weak?

I spent Saturday doing a brain dump.  Just a huge word document summarizing my life.  I wrote the things I don't like, the things I do.  It took a couple hours but I made a gameplan.  One I'm happy about.  I was feeling a bit out of sorts because the friend I went on vacation with didn't reply to a text.  Then, instead of chatting with me, she dropped something off at my house while I was gone.  I felt like I was being too sensitive but it also felt like maybe she was avoiding me.  I worried I ruined things by confiding things to her.  It took a lot to keep my emotions in check.  Later I learned that she had some family stuff that was keeping her too busy.  A lesson to not read into things on my own.  To believe that I'm trusting the right people.

My husband has been different lately.  Stressed and being dismissive.  He really hurt my feelings on Sunday.  I'm trying hard to cut him slack but I also want to stick up for myself.  I'm not sure where the line is but I'm certain it will appear soon.

In light of these difficulties I'm happy to report that I've been reading up on Narc behavior.  Today I identified it easily and succeeded.

The woman I previously said "no" to, called my business and wanted me to do something.  It's an easy and fun project so I'm doing it.

1. I cringed when I saw her name on the caller id.  Braced myself and answered everything cheerfully.

2. The comments

"So . . . how was your time away?  Where did you go? (she knew I travelled a considerable distance)
"Oh. Really?" (feigning boredom as she has traveled extensively in her past)
"Was it even worth the big bucks to get in?"  (I went somewhere expensive and special and she's pretending I wasted money)

When I assured her that yes, it was well worth the money and listed the fun things we did she sort of did her usual thing:

"Oh. Okay? Well. Great for you."

She was dismissive at everything I said. Not at all interested in anything. She tried to cut off my sentences.  You know how it is sometimes in a conversation when you sense people might not care about what you are saying.  But they are polite about it and make efforts to genuinely participate in the conversation anyway?  I've experienced this on both ends and it's okay.  It's not a great conversation but you maybe learn something or you can move onto other things that you both enjoy.  This woman did NOT want ME to talk.
Especially since I was saying positive things. She was trying to end my words so she could get to the reason of the call.

And then

"Well, I'm just glad you were able to FINALLY get away."  (as if I live a pathetic life and this was a highlight I'd been pinning over).

3. Finally - The request (which I happily took down the details) and the dismissal.  She couldn't wait to end the call.

I'm posting about this - so it DID bother me on some level.  But it feels more like a victory.  I got through that call and I feel happy and good.  Annoyed but amused.  And not likely to complain about to anyone other than you lucky strangers on a forum.  ;D   This feels hugely different from how I felt the last time.

I have been feeling a better sense of calm lately.  Like most people, I like to feel satisfied, needed, appreciated.  The problem is that I previously needed great amounts of these accolades, from others, to feel secure.  As such, I worked very HARD to inspire others to express their feelings of love and appreciation for me.  When people didn't deliver I'd spiral.  And work harder.  Then harder yet.  Always feeling empty.  I thought I was doing things for others and they didn't appreciate me.  Turns out I was doing things for myself and expecting them, as pawns, to give me what I wanted.

So at the beginning of this whole journey I stopped.  And that was the hardest work of all.  It's taken me years to learn how to just "stop".  I'm still learning.  At least when I invested extreme efforts into other people I'd be rewarded with crumbs.  And I was busy all the time.  I was around people all the time.  When I "stopped" - people forgot me and I received zero feedback.  When you rely on that feedback - your self esteem isn't really your own.  Rebuilding on an honest level is hard.

I stopped with my in-laws.  No more interest, efforts or even warm kindness.  Just the sort of polite reserve that you'd extend to total strangers in line at Target.  Except I'm actually very friendly and kind to people on the street, behind a register or anyone handing me a napkin.  So it was very hard to not even be that to family. But I am rewarded now in that I only feel small twinges of sadness when I learn I've been excluded or I know that I don't have favor with them.  I feel incredibly blessed that my one sister in law finally gave me the apology I desperately needed.  It released me and ended a chapter of trying, wishing and wanting.  It is over.  It is done.  Perhaps someday I will be friendly with them again.  Until then - polite.

It's still hard to stop investing in my mother-in-law.  She is a "nice" person who seems saintly.  Her family largely disregards her, only including her when it's appropriate.
Her husband disrespects her - boldly.  It's hard to realize that I was once like her, giving and giving and then turning around with resentment. 

She goes over and above, helping her son (my husband) with his business.  This woman is working her ass off and he appreciates her.  But she's overly inserting herself into our lives.  She's using us so that she can feel good.  So that she will be included.  So that she will feel important.  She says that she "loves" to help with menial tasks and insists on doing the grunt work.  But she pouts when she's not included in other ways.  She complains about others often.  She throws pity parties.  I have the uneasy feeling of not liking a person who does a great deal for me.

Everything she does irritates me and I can see now - how I probably (very likely) irritated others.  This is exactly how I operated.  I cringe to think of how I must have appeared to my in-laws.  It's not a wonder why they held me at a distance and eventually (by some) avoided me.  I hope someday to sort out the truly PD people in the family so I can rebuild honest relationships with some and hold kindness for others with boundaries.

I think about my mother-in-law often.  I want her to change.  She needs to change, in my opinion.  But my next goal is to STOP judging her and to START giving her validation in other ways.  Right now I am short with her and ask leading questions to try to make a point.  But it's not kind and not really helping the situation.  Maybe I'm not ready to lead yet.  Maybe I still need to "stop".  I just want her to feel good at this stage in her life.

Recently I had the pleasure of meeting with friends for coffee and having honest feelings of joy to see them.  When a mutual friend (more mine than theirs) popped in, I was so happy to be sitting at a table of woman who all said, "please, join us!"  These are the kind of woman I want to be around.  Those who are real, who care about me as much I do about them.  Woman who have their own lives, other friends and people they care about.  Woman who allow me to have my quirks and respect the things in my life.  Woman who include others warmly. 

Recently another friend had surgery.  The old me would have texted a few other people and would encourage them to reach out to her.  Maybe I'd coordinate a gift or a card.  Or I'd make it a group effort and arrange for lunch to be delivered for all of us if the patient was willing to have us.  I would have loved setting it up and I'd be waiting for the praise to come.  I'd be wanting to feel "good", caring, thoughtful, "the best".

But this time - I just reached out to my friend and asked when I could visit.  I brought a plant.  I cheered her up.  We caught up.  And I went home.  She texted me later to thank me and I felt happy that my friend was happy.  The point wasn't to feel good about myself - but I did.  With very little fanfare.

I celebrated a special private victory last night.  I went out with two friends to do something I really enjoy.  One friend picked me up and we traveled to the other friend.  Then we all left together.  After a fun night we dropped off one friend and then it was just me and the other friend alone for a few miles. 

The old me would have made a comment or two about the other friend.  Just an off comment about how she over-talked something, or how she was funny about leaving the tip at the restaurant.  The comment wouldn't be for drama.  It would be just a little nudge for the other friend to agree with me and we'd "bond" over our thoughts about how the other person behaved sort of badly.  Then I'd say, "yeah, but she IS a great person."  Always the other person would agree.  And I would feel good.  We were all good people, but me and her would be just a littler better, right?  Ending with a little bit of positivity would have made me feel "okay" about manipulating the other person to agree with me and fill my cup. 

Yikes.  I might not have been a true "mean girl", but I was certainly not a healthy one.

It's a real victory for me to look forward to and genuinely enjoy a night out with other women.  And then, on that final leg home, to chat about how great the other friend is.  To rehash the fun night before she dropped me off.  To return home and tell my husband, "it was a blast".  To not lay in bed thinking of things to tell him to manipulate him into thinking I was a better person than them.

I have a lot more growth ahead of me.  I'm scared of some of the things I will need to tackle soon.  But I'm winning.  Slowly, I'm winning.

Releasing some anxiety about saying "no". 

A sister-in-law who rarely pays attention to me sent me a very breezy, fun text.  Guess what!?!  She needs help creating a senior sports poster for her kid. 

I don't want to do it.  It's my skill set.  I am the best person to help her.  But I'm overloaded at the moment.  Plus, not having children, these sorts of projects make me sad.  Plus I know I will feel especially sad when I have to sift through photos of this kid with other aunts and uncles and friends and know that I wasn't included in those special events.

She's not a terrible person but a thoughtless one who hasn't ever returned any of my kindness.

So I said "no".  In an equally breezy, "sorry, but I'm super slammed.  Plus, honestly, these projects bum me out.  Have a great season!"  I worded it nicer but it was still short and sweet.

She flatly replied back with, "well, can you suggest anyone else that could help or a place online that I can do it myself."

That reply is helping me understand that I made the right choice.  She's not interested in what I've got going on in my life.  Or that I struggle with my childlessness.  She needs something.  I can do it.  I should do it.  And I didn't.  She's done with me for the moment.  Probably forever since she's not even going to waste her time asking again.

She has never invited me anywhere.
When she comes to town she doesn't ask if I want to meet up.
When she asks about my life it's obviously polite and not out of real interest.
When I attend a party at her house she chats mostly with her mom friends or drinking buddies.

None of this is a crime.  But it does mean that I am not obligated to rearrange my life, and my heart, to make a poster for her kid.


It feels bad.  The old me thinks, "you know what - it won't take me THAT long."  "This might change things between us."  "This would give us something to "bond" over." I even downloaded some graphics that I felt might help.  I started a file.  I stopped.

But the new me knows that in 17 years she's never really included me in her kids life.  In the 20 years I've known her she hasn't helped me in my dark times.  We have nothing in common and she's not interested in building a relationship.  ME doing this work for HER isn't going to change that.


Here's my other problem.  I reached out to a trusted friend for reassurance and support and she just replied.  She replied quickly and with honest support.  But her reply wasn't what I was looking for.  I wanted a "you're a great person.  Sorry this is hard" sort of response.  It's what I expected from her and didn't get.  I'm left with feeling like people don't care or understand me.

Which isn't true.

I'm dumping this out here to remember that it's MY JOB to make decisions and to feel okay about them.

It's OKAY to say "no" to this person and to rest in the knowledge that someone else in her life WILL be able to help her.

It's OKAY to reach out to a friend but I need to ultimately take responsibility for my own feelings, my childlessness, my choices, my decisions and especially how I operate the rest of the day.

I AM a good person who WILL do things for others.  I AM truly too busy with my own obligations to do ANOTHER project.  My heart DOES hurt when I do things pertaining to my nieces and nephews.  It's in my best interest to protect myself right now.

I still want to puke though.  I feel terrible that I'm not helping.  Someday I want to be able to just say "no" and move on effortlessly.

Hi Hopeful!

You read that request from SiL so very well and you know yourself so very well also.  a H-U-G-E congrats to you the both the mindfulness of self-control and saying no, as well as the accurate read of the situation.  :applause:

You wrote:

"She flatly replied back with, "well, can you suggest anyone else that could help or a place online that I can do it myself."

That reply is helping me understand that I made the right choice.  She's not interested in what I've got going on in my life."

:yeahthat: +100   Well done on the accurate advanced read on the situation and self-protection with the "no" boundary! 

You also wrote:

"It's OKAY to say "no" to this person and to rest in the knowledge that someone else in her life WILL be able to help her.

It's OKAY to reach out to a friend but I need to ultimately take responsibility for my own feelings, my childlessness, my choices, my decisions and especially how I operate the rest of the day.

I AM a good person who WILL do things for others.  I AM truly too busy with my own obligations to do ANOTHER project.  My heart DOES hurt when I do things pertaining to my nieces and nephews.  It's in my best interest to protect myself right now.

I still want to puke though.  I feel terrible that I'm not helping.  Someday I want to be able to just say "no" and move on effortlessly."


Great mindfulness, rising above it all, looking back down from end-to-end in understanding, as well as acceptance of the truth, with "warts and all " as some like to say. ;D

Allowing myself grace with these types of things and that any different feelings I may desire, make take lots of time to alter (like erosion)...maybe even never. I guess not in this lifetime is ok as well, but I can, like your name, be hopeful as I steady work on accepting and/or overcoming my past :)

I tip my hat to you! Cheers!

SoT

Quote from: SonofThunder on August 09, 2023, 11:48:59 AMAllowing myself grace with these types of things and that any different feelings I may desire, make take lots of time to alter (like erosion)...maybe even never. I guess not in this lifetime is ok as well, but I can, like your name, be hopeful as I steady work on accepting and/or overcoming my past :)

SoT

Thanks for your comment.  I agree that time is what is will take.  I'm rooting for both of us.

After I hit "send" I promptly got on this site and made my previous post.  I reached out to my friend and then got busy with someone who walked into the office.  By the time I finished my tasks I already felt more secure.  Strong.  Happy even.  Mostly relieved that I didn't have to deal with all the pictures and back and forth it would take to do this project. 

I still feel uneasy and I am having trouble getting back on track.  But I no longer feel sick or "ashamed" of myself for not helping her.

My mental health is enough of a (private) excuse to say no.  I don't have to share that info with anyone in order for it to be a valid reason.  I was washing my hands and caught a look of myself in the mirror and it struck me.  I'm eating better and it's improving my physical and mental health (and appearance) but I'm not well.  No one in my real life would ever know because I carry myself nicely.  However, I no long pretend to myself that I'm fine.  I know that I am not.  But I'm making real progress on putting myself together.  So I have no business taking on difficult tasks for random people - in order to make their life only a little easier.

Sometimes we pretend on the surface to get by while those internal baby steps catch up to the rest of us. Saying No was a good option and I'm glad you chose it. It's a pity she didn't have the grace to be compassionate or even respectful, but that's not yours to carry. Having that glimpse into her psyche isn't necessarily a bad thing. Kind of reaffirms what you already knew, albeit in a more undeniable way. 

I understand the heartache and I'm so sorry you carry it.

Quote from: moglow on August 09, 2023, 01:13:27 PMSometimes we pretend on the surface to get by while those internal baby steps catch up to the rest of us. Saying No was a good option and I'm glad you chose it. It's a pity she didn't have the grace to be compassionate or even respectful, but that's not yours to carry. Having that glimpse into her psyche isn't necessarily a bad thing. Kind of reaffirms what you already knew, albeit in a more undeniable way.

I understand the heartache and I'm so sorry you carry it.

I agree - it's good to experience the disregard to really understand the importance of where to invest my time.  She could have said, "thanks anyway, glad your business is going well."  Or even a more pointed, "I totally understand how this sort of project would be hard for you.  Thanks for the reply."  Instead she focused on her own need and left my last comment on read. 

I'd rather feel a little hurt and anxious about this today (and move on tomorrow) - rather than stress over the project for days, feel sad and resentful while dealing with all her requests, and then feel really hurt when I figure out that it didn't budge our relationship in anyway.

This really is a good day.

Just a rough day.  This weekend I worked an event for my husband's business.  As an introvert I dislike long hours of working with people.  I dislike seeing all sorts of people I casually know and making small talk.  Because I'm working, I can't really get away or pick and choose.  The actual task I do is fine - I can do it - but I don't like the whole experience.

His mother helps us for periods of time.  We don't really need her but "she likes helping" so my husband includes her.  I used to be proud that he made room for her.  But she makes things harder and can be negative.

My husband is very extrovert.  Plus he is passionate about his business and can be very specific on how things are done.  I really do "get that".  But he becomes so focused on his business and running the event that he doesn't have time to be complimentary or supportive.  For the greater good I set aside my feelings to be friendly, fun and as much of a team player as possible.  But he doesn't seem to remember that the whole event is a huge effort for me.  At the end of the day I only have myself to pat myself on the back. 

Yesterday I had a headache and powered through.  Honestly I felt much better 7 hours in but inside I was just a mess.  It had been a long day and everything my husband was doing (being loud, extra entertaining when not needed) was annoying me.  His mother just smiled and laughed at everything he did.  When we had discussions about the things we needed to do I had a different opinion than him but obviously didn't argue - it's his business after all.  Well, his mother completely agreed with him.  I watched her carefully look at his face while he was talking.  Then she slowly started to either shake or nod her head to match what he was saying.  Then when I disagreed she kept looking at him to gauge if he'd be changing his opinion.  She only wanted to agree with him.

Anyway, at one point in the night he was being "extra" and I asked him to please take into account my headache and tone it down.  Him and his mom both said, "go ahead and leave".  Now they said it nicely.  They weren't jerks about it or anything but I wasted no time in leaving.

I felt guilty about lying about still having a headache but the fact remains is that I worked my butt off all day (plus a good part of yesterday) for very little appreciation or credit.  I felt like my personality needed to take a backseat, which is maybe reasonable when you are helping someone with something specific.  But the difference is that my husband didn't appreciate it.  Not once did he check in.  Not once did he say, "thanks for going the extra mile".  He was just hounding me about the things I did "wrong" or got agitated when I voiced my opinion.

Plus my other sister-in-law came to town for the event, which was really surprising.  But it still hurt when she walked past my area without stopping in or saying "hi".  It's so weird.  It's not like she hates me or we had some sort of argument.  She saw me, she just literally didn't care to stop.

Sometimes I start to think that I'm just overly sensitive and that I'm expecting too much.  After all, how could so many people in the same family disregard or disappointment me?  It MUST be me and my super high expectations right?  But I truly don't think I am this way.  I mean, at one time yes, I did think people "should" do certain things.  But now I feel like I'm reasonable and just have a lot of people in my life who aren't even baseline friendly or polite.

But my problem isn't the sister in law.  It's not the mother in law.  The problem is my relationship with my husband who doesn't take into account my minimal needs.  Who doesn't respect my feelings about having his mother around so much.  I have to figure out boundaries and enforce them.  Worse of all - I have to accept the fact that he isn't able to support me on my self esteem journey.  If I tell him that I feel underappreciated he may take a deep breath and say, "Hopeful, I do appreciate you."  But he won't say it on his own.  And worse, he won't really feel it.  It's fake.

I used to feel like my husband was abused by narcissists.  He was the family scapegoat and needed to be loved.  But I'm starting to think that he is a low grade (maybe recovering) narcissist who is too busy and tired to really try anymore.  At 20 years in - fighting for my own self esteem - I'm realizing that the most important person in my life has hurt me the most and literally can't truly understand or appreciate me.  Moments like these make me questions every relationship in my life. 

Today is a hard day.

Thank you for sharing that. I think many people can relate.
Looks to me that the fog is clearing and you are ready and willing to see and accept reality. It is painful. It is hard. And it is real.
Seems to me that your need of being appreciated, complimented, receiving loving words is not being fulfilled. How can you give yourself what you need? How can you get from outside what you need? And would you be willing to freely continue giving, putting in all that effort, if you were to give up the hope that it would ever give you any appreciation from the people you make that effort for?

Quote from: notrightinthehead on August 29, 2023, 01:32:45 AMThank you for sharing that. I think many people can relate.
Looks to me that the fog is clearing and you are ready and willing to see and accept reality. It is painful. It is hard. And it is real.
Seems to me that your need of being appreciated, complimented, receiving loving words is not being fulfilled. How can you give yourself what you need? How can you get from outside what you need? And would you be willing to freely continue giving, putting in all that effort, if you were to give up the hope that it would ever give you any appreciation from the people you make that effort for?

I've been through a lot with my husband.  Infidelity, public humiliation, therapy, sobriety, all of it.  When we sorted things out 10-15 years ago I was satisfied and happy with the turn in our marriage.  So relieved and grateful.  But in recent years - the years I've been working on myself - I'm not feeling that same satisfaction with my marriage. 

I love him.  I don't want to leave him.  There is enough good (great even) about our marriage.  But as I level up with all my relationships I'm finding that I don't have the same tolerance I used to have.  If I feel used or disregarded - I make moves to end the relationship.  Sometimes slowly.  Sometimes passively.  But I close that chapter and find new people who are interested in a more balanced friendship. 

It's still a struggle but I'm learning when to stop investing myself into others.  I can still be kind.  I can still give basic human decency, respect and interest.  But I'm not going to continue a relationship where others are needy and take advantage of me.

My husband is not growing with me.  Yes, he's become a wonderful person.  Smart, good and accomplished.  He's not even close to being terrible.  But he's not seeing the need to fulfill what his "revised wife" is needing.  Eight years ago I was just thrilled to go home after a party and not deal with drunken abusive language.  I didn't need him to be anything other than sober and nice. 

Current day I want more from him.  I struggle with feeling okay.  Eight years ago I wasn't saying "no" to people.  I was still oblivious to my unhealthy patterns.  Today I use the word but it's still hard to say "no". 

It's hard to be treated with disregard after I say "no".  Even though my brain says, "see you were right to say "no" - this person is a user" my heart still hurts that I've disappointed someone.  That little bit of longing inside of me wants to say "yes" so that I can get that rush of happiness when I am momentarily "liked" by the person I said "yes" to.

He doesn't "get it".  I feel validation after posting on this forum, talking to myself, or privately enjoying the small successes along the way.  Sometimes I design something and I know it's good.  Real good.  And I love that zing in my heart that tells me I (ME!) am good!!  But without someone else (occasionally) saying, "ohhh, that is great.  You are talented" it's sort of a game.  Am I good?  Or do I only think I'm good?

My husband tells me he's not comfortable giving compliments.  He prefers to do things for me instead.  Right now he's fixing my car.  Earlier today he ran an errand for me.  Later we will enjoy our ice cream together. 

But I want him to grow outside his comfort zone the way I grew out of mine.

Did I want to deal with him being arrested for picking up a prostitute?  No, but I gathered my courage to stand by his side, attend therapy, eventually establish intimacy again.  All while knowing that others judged me for staying with him.

Did I want to deal with his drunken evenings out?  No, but I gained patience from dealing with his drunk attitude, I found more patience to support his sobriety, I myself quit drinking and faced his family parties without alcohol. 

So maybe he can find a way to dig deep and get out of his comfort zone and tell his wife she is beautiful every once in awhile?  That she is smart and kind.  That he values her.

Because I'm sick of telling myself those things.

I can't build intimacy with someone who behaves as if it's pathetic to want that sort of verbal attention.  I don't feel good around him.  I feel lesser.  Especially when I've told him ALL THESE THINGS to his face and he still doesn't get it.  I used to think that maybe I wasn't worth it.  But I've changed and I KNOW I am worth it.  But is he?

Feeling profoundly sad.  My husband's family is in town.  Long story short - we only learned of the gathering Saturday mid-morning.  Because I had all sort of things planned my husband said it was okay if I stayed behind.  He went to the gathering where many extended family showed up.  Clearly they had all gotten a message that we hadn't.

Even though I didn't want to go.  Even though I was relieved that my husband didn't expect me to attend.  It still hurt.  I spent the day feeling unloved, disregarded, confused.  When he returned home we went on to have a nice night together.  He told me all about how people behaved and it just made me sad all over again.  A reminder of their lives, their connections, their relationships where they are looking out for each other.

My husband and I are nobodies to them.  We don't understand.  We can't voice our hurts to them without setting ourselves up for scapegoating. 

I know this will pass.  But today I'm sad and realizing how much more work I have ahead of me in terms of boundaries and emotional strength.  I'm tired.

Quote from: Hopeful Spine on August 31, 2023, 01:31:55 PMI love him.  I don't want to leave him.  There is enough good (great even) about our marriage.  But as I level up with all my relationships I'm finding that I don't have the same tolerance I used to have.  If I feel used or disregarded - I make moves to end the relationship.  Sometimes slowly.  Sometimes passively.  But I close that chapter and find new people who are interested in a more balanced friendship. 


My husband is not growing with me.  Yes, he's become a wonderful person.  Smart, good and accomplished.  He's not even close to being terrible.  But he's not seeing the need to fulfill what his "revised wife" is needing. 


Current day I want more from him.  I struggle with feeling okay. 


It's hard to be treated with disregard after I say "no". 


He doesn't "get it". 


My husband tells me he's not comfortable giving compliments.  He prefers to do things for me instead. 


But I want him to grow outside his comfort zone the way I grew out of mine.


I can't build intimacy with someone who behaves as if it's pathetic to want that sort of verbal attention. 

I am sad for you...these are very painful revelations.  I am also sad for myself because I align with all of this with my husband as well.  I realized not too long ago that my husband has been unable to walk with me.  Or maybe that it is I who is unable to walk with him.  Because I have grown exponentially after everything we have been through while he remains somewhat the same.  Verbally telling him that he has hurt me with his behavior hasn't really led to much change on his end....it just means finding other ways to do what he wants to do without me finding out.  Which sadly, is kind of like what CN MIL used to do as well. 

DH's relationship towards me has become more transactional as well....he prefers to do things for me or our children.  He doesn't use words.  Same as his mother.  This isn't the man I married.  This is the man that has become this way from his mother's direction rather than the direction DH and I should have been cultivating for ourselves over the years. 

Even though we live under the same roof and CN MIL is gone, I still don't feel as though I am being included in DH's life.  I am not included because I have grown and like you, refuse to tolerate certain behaviors anymore.  The old me would just let stuff go and now I am like no way.  Because now I have boundaries about what I will and won't tolerate.  The thing is that I don't see DH making any adjustments.  He doesn't respond with any sort of concern...rather, it is a quiet sulk.  Just like CN MIL.  It is an immaturity at best....something I find concerning because CN MIL dug her heels in around being a responsible adult.  It isn't like my DH isn't being responsible, he is only being responsible to others while avoiding me - which allows others to see him as a good person.  Avoidance.  He's keeping the torch lit....getting things done for others while going around me.  I used to be central in his life....until we made more room for CN MIL.  She ruined everything.  And it's so sad....wondering every day if I should go or stay with DH.  I struggle to be intimate with a man that is constantly avoiding me.  I wish he would see the light about how he was treated within his family.  Being the hero child was not a good thing....yet he thinks it is.   

Hey Comrades,

My stbx's complaints to me of "SoT you are not the man I married!" are very true. I'm not, i'm a 'New Me'! I'm not a caretaker any longer. Hallelujah!!  I said that same thing of her a few years into the marriage, but was skillfully IDD cycled and drama triangle'd. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Mrs SoT is exactly the same person she revealed herself to be decades ago.  She was hiding the real Mrs SoT in the love bombing phase. She carefully selected and married a caretaker. Host acquired!

The turbulence reached a point I had to bail, but at the same time it was a bit unfair for my stbx to also be legally bound to the 'New Me'; the now non-caretaking, educated, experienced, hyper-aware man she didn't marry.  Possible food for thought for those who are struggling because their spouse hasn't adjusted into a 'New Me' also, but just the same unsupportive, needy, predator person we prey originally married. There are still lots of caretakers in the sea. 

SoT

Quote from: Pepin on September 06, 2023, 10:26:48 AMDH's relationship towards me has become more transactional as well....he prefers to do things for me or our children.  He doesn't use words.  Same as his mother.  This isn't the man I married.  This is the man that has become this way from his mother's direction rather than the direction DH and I should have been cultivating for ourselves over the years. 

---

Because now I have boundaries about what I will and won't tolerate.     

Good.  For.  You.  I know how hard it is to achieve boundaries and it can really be hard to not slip back into those roles with the person we consider to be the most important - our partner.  My husband has really grown SO MUCH in his journey.  But he's grown within himself.  He doesn't really extend that growth into other relationships.  His siblings push his buttons and he's sulky.  His mother strokes his ego and he enjoys it.  He has budding relationship with men who have similar interests and he doesn't take chances on making new friends.  His wife is honest about her needs, fears, anxieties and he doesn't do the things that she has told him will help.  He does what he thinks she needs.  What he is comfortable contributing.

Like you I fear that our marriage is going backwards.  His dad barks and his mom takes it and then pouts about it later.  Nope.  I'm not going to spend the rest of my life pretending that those words don't cut me down.  Maybe when I'm stronger I will push more.  But for right now I'm going to just continue to build up my self esteem. 

Good luck to you.  Sounds like you are well aware of what you are up against.  But wisdom is difficult. 

Quote from: SonofThunder on September 06, 2023, 05:05:05 PMThe turbulence reached a point I had to bail, but at the same time it was a bit unfair for my stbx to also be legally bound to the 'New Me'; the now non-caretaking, educated, experienced, hyper-aware man she didn't marry.  Possible food for thought for those who are struggling because their spouse hasn't adjusted into a 'New Me' also, but just the same unsupportive, needy, predator person we prey originally married. There are still lots of caretakers in the sea. 

SoT

Good for you for making the positive steps to help your wife be free from the "New You".  It is an interesting take.  You've given me great advice over the years.  I have no doubt that you will sail on just fine on your own (and, if you wish, find the right person to continue life with).  Your stbx will struggle for sure.  They do need us more than we need them. 

I've spent so many years feeling less than.  One visit with my mother tells me everything.  All the comments, her leading behavior.  If I wanted her approval I needed to be catty, small and only "enough".  Clean clothes and brushed hair but don't put on makeup and try to look pretty.  It's okay to talk crap about your friends as long as you say something like, "oh well, she's a nice person."  Don't even try to be friends with anyone who is "popular" they will only make fun of you behind your back.  Kiss your dates ("give em a little something") but don't be a slut.  All these rules that no one else seemed to follow.  It made me feel superior - as well as inferior. 

I don't play those games anymore but I'm just not where I want to be yet.  I'm grateful to have this place to vent.  Thank you for being a person who cares.

In other news . . .

I did something stupid and visited my PD SIL's social media.  There she was with my SIL who finally gave me that apology I was wanting.  Man.  They looked so damn happy together in all those pictures.  I KNOW it's fake.  I KNOW it's temporary.  But it still hurts.  It hurts a lot today.  I'm overwhelmed with work and other things and it just hit me hard.  I have to move forward knowing I have real friends and it's good that they are currently feeding off each other instead of reeling me into their web.

Quote from: Hopeful Spine on September 06, 2023, 06:29:47 PM

Quote from: SonofThunder on September 06, 2023, 05:05:05 PMThe turbulence reached a point I had to bail, but at the same time it was a bit unfair for my stbx to also be legally bound to the 'New Me'; the now non-caretaking, educated, experienced, hyper-aware man she didn't marry.  Possible food for thought for those who are struggling because their spouse hasn't adjusted into a 'New Me' also, but just the same unsupportive, needy, predator person we prey originally married. There are still lots of caretakers in the sea. 

SoT

Good for you for making the positive steps to help your wife be free from the "New You".  It is an interesting take.  You've given me great advice over the years.  I have no doubt that you will sail on just fine on your own (and, if you wish, find the right person to continue life with).  Your stbx will struggle for sure.  They do need us more than we need them. 

I've spent so many years feeling less than.  One visit with my mother tells me everything.  All the comments, her leading behavior.  If I wanted her approval I needed to be catty, small and only "enough".  Clean clothes and brushed hair but don't put on makeup and try to look pretty.  It's okay to talk crap about your friends as long as you say something like, "oh well, she's a nice person."  Don't even try to be friends with anyone who is "popular" they will only make fun of you behind your back.  Kiss your dates ("give em a little something") but don't be a slut.  All these rules that no one else seemed to follow.  It made me feel superior - as well as inferior. 

I don't play those games anymore but I'm just not where I want to be yet.  I'm grateful to have this place to vent.  Thank you for being a person who cares.

In other news . . .

I did something stupid and visited my PD SIL's social media.  There she was with my SIL who finally gave me that apology I was wanting.  Man.  They looked so damn happy together in all those pictures.  I KNOW it's fake.  I KNOW it's temporary.  But it still hurts.  It hurts a lot today.  I'm overwhelmed with work and other things and it just hit me hard.  I have to move forward knowing I have real friends and it's good that they are currently feeding off each other instead of reeling me into their web.

Hopeful,

Im sorry you are hurting today. Im trying to learn to be gentler on myself, and its a daily thing I need to practice.

You wrote:

"Good for you for making the positive steps to help your wife be free from the "New You".  It is an interesting take.  You've given me great advice over the years.  I have no doubt that you will sail on just fine on your own (and, if you wish, find the right person to continue life with).  Your stbx will struggle for sure.  They do need us more than we need them."

I will take that paragraph and reply backwards, from the bottom up.  I agree with your last sentence, but imo, its not the 51% rule nor is it a marriage. Its a parasite-host, a predator-prey relationship.  Imo, my stbx will mostly struggle with having new adult responsibilities that she has not had before. My adult child has noted to me that not once in the entire separation, my stbx has mentioned 'missing' me. My stbx is moving full steam ahead in her new life. As I stated, there are plenty of caretakers in the sea. Thanks for your positive well wishes and I agree, I will sail on fine on my own.

My previous post is simply a fair observation. I do not look at it as I set the predator free, but it IS true. I decided to get myself out of bordered prairie to legally protect and provide my own emotional (therefore physical) safety.

In a marriage to a PD, there is a tall, legal, locked fence around the prairie. The hungry lion loves the taste of the grass-eating gazelle. Both are born into the boundary'd prairie as predator and prey. The Gazelle has finally figured out this terribly unequal relationship and through educated awareness, new tools and application, has found the ability to become a 'New Me' and changed itself into a hyena.

Lions and hyenas are not in the same type of relationship and now the lion is slowly starving due to lack of normal supply and the new hyena is now grazing on other prairie leftovers. The meat eating lion isn't going to change itself into a gazelle so it can eat grass to survive, as then it will be prey.

Therefore, in animal (and human) equal rights, its actually fair to the lion, to unlock the gate and let the hungry lion live elsewhere. My fair observation is that my marriage should have been a covenant among equals, not a profit for one at the expense of the other. Its not a 'take' I actually claim, but it is true; I became a 'New Me'; an unpalatable and incompatible prairie companion; far different than the gazelle she was accustomed to chewing on since the wedding day. 

My stbx would emotionally starve if I kept increasing my self protection while in a legal marriage. Therefore, since I proactively unlocked the gate myself and skedaddled to safety, the gate remains wide open for her to go roam another prairie.

SoT

It's been a great weekend for self reflection and self control.

Thursday night I had an issue with a difficult customers.  Details are not important but this customer was being extra needy during a time I don't have much to give.  Despite the things I had on my plate I agreed to meet with him Friday morning.

Friday morning I greeted the customer warmly.  I had realized, overnight, that this man needed something for a very special event. He is a wealthy, highly regarded man, faced with a difficult time in his life.  My help and my skills are vital (in a way that secondary silly things are "vital").  What I mean is that he had no control over the services I was providing to him and he needed more from me than a smile and a promise.  He wasn't just a jerk bossing me around.  He's scared that I won't help him.  I set up the meeting with confidence, knowing that his efforts to control would run things off course.  That wasn't as important as it was for me to dig into my deep well of compassion and greet him at the meeting with kindness.  I had to spare 40 minutes of a very busy morning to placate him but it also did something for me too.  I knew my years of people pleasing allowed met to compartmentalize my feelings and deal with this man.

After that I had to set up for a special event and this year it was different.  I didn't notice or care what sort of connections were going on around me.  Why?  Because I have spent that last couple of years building real connections and I had four people that day that I was able to wave to, text, visit and help.  With those real connections I had no time to be jealous of the other people having little clusters of popularity.

My mother in law, who usually bugs me, was helping my husband at his area of the event.  It was her birthday so I made extra efforts to be special with her. In the course of the day I realized that one of the things that bugs me so much is how she's always making a big deal out of saying "Love ya".  The way she says it annoys me.  The fact that she says it in front of other people annoys me.  The feeling that I HAVE to say it back annoys me.  Here's what I realized.  She doesn't hear it enough and that is why she likely makes a big deal about saying it all the time.  I have no doubt that she does love her family and that is the ultimate reason she says it.  But her personality leads me to believe that she wants to hear it too and so she "gets" what she wants by giving it away.  This is not terrible but more of an indication that she doesn't have enough fulfilling relationships in her life that support her.  I very much see myself in my mother in law.  Or at least I see my old self in her actions.  My solution, going forward, is to greet her with extra kindness when I see her, which should make her more secure.  Control my annoyance.  And sort of see if that makes the pressing "love ya" disappear.

Saturday was a big day.  The event was finishing up.  My friend who ran the event wasn't chatting with me or our other friend.  She was laughing it up and schmoozing with everyone else which sort of hurt.  But I know that my friend sort of "shuts down" in these sort of situations.  She had reached her limit as she has on the last three years of Saturdays after this event.  So I gave it a pass.  She barely even said "goodbye".  But two hours later she texted me with her apologies and explained that she was super overwhelmed and saving her best for the people she needed to impress.  It was incredibly rewarding to get those honest words and to support her in return.

Next was my class reunion.  Of which I was in charge.  No one else on the committee did much.  I wanted to make posters, have a trivial contest, put up photos - SOMETHING.  But no one responded to my request for help.  Everyone is busy - I get it.  I decided to do a funny little party favor thing.  Three hours before the party I started to thing that maybe I'd do a trivia thing after all - but I stopped myself.  This class reunion was going to be a sad little party and I just needed to let it happen.  I shoved my yearbooks in a bag to bring to the reunion, brought my favor and threw on some clothes (for once I didn't even shop or plan the "perfect" outfit).  The favors were a hit, no one stayed still long enough to do a trivia contest anyway.  It was a very casual event in a local bar and the class visited with all sorts of local people who were also there.  A trivia contest would have been very awkward. 

As the "host" I chatted with everyone and was happy to notice that a few people were still the same and most of them were largely different. I was not uncomfortable or stressed at anytime and that was a huge first for me.

While going through a box of photos for the reunion I ran across pictures of me and my husband in our early years. This was when cell phone didn't take pictures so I have stacks of professionally developed, paper photos of our fun times.  Lots of parties.  Lots of pics of his siblings.  This continues with the earlier weddings (even our own) and the first few nieces and nephews.  We all looked so happy.  But.  I wasn't in very many photos. 

I could see the drunken glaze of my husbands eyes and I could remember how those evenings ended with fights and arguments between all these fun-loving people.  Yes, I got to experience their fun and laughter and I even have a few memories of my own where I was truly part of things.  I had such hopes then that I would be included and equally loved.  THAT is what I seem to be holding onto with this family.  What I captured in those pictures is what I still want.  But it doesn't exist anymore.  When it did exist I wasn't really a part of it. 

I've not been rejected from something special.  I was never really included to begin with.  I was just the silly young woman who thought she was.

This winter I'm going to go through these photos and give them to the people who are featured in them.  In kindness I want to give back the memories that I stole for my own.  It will be a gift for them (they were too busy having fun to take their own pictures) But mostly I hope that this releases me from remembering things incorrectly.

And now onto the best parts of my update.

My husband and I have a habit of buying a pie before going to a function that we don't really want to attend (a family party for him or a long event for me).  While I was getting ready I offhandedly said, "I sure wish we would have had time to get a pie today."

Well.  He snuck out and picked up a pie while I was doing my hair and when returned home it was complete joy for me to find a beautiful apple pie in the fridge! I felt so loved.

And finally - today I'm doing exactly what I want and my husband is going to join me.  We have a busy week ahead of us and today is going to be nice.  I feel so accomplished, healthy and loved.  All of us on this site are doing hard things.  It's crazy difficult to solve these deep rooted issues.  But the feeling I have today is what (I hope) many of us feel from time to time on our journey.  It's such a great feeling and I find that the longer I struggle on this path, the closer these "good" days happen.  The reward is very much worth it. 

QuoteBingo!  When something uncomfortable pops up I get a sort of sick feeling.  Then, when I agree, I mindfully say, "okay, it's fine.  Deal with it.  Just do XYZ and it will be okay."  And I do the annoying "XYZ" and get very resentful but I keep it to myself and I do feel good at the end of it.  But it's not a healthy good.  It's self-rightous and superior.  Plus I'm happy that the only person upset is ME.  And I always reward myself afterward.  I'll feel justified to let myself read for hours instead of taking care of a task that needs to be done.  I'll reward myself with fast food for lunch if I finish a big favor for someone.  Or get ice cream AFTER having the fast food.  Lots of things make me happy and I selfishly over-indulge when I believe I "deserve" it. 

These are not every day decisions but it sure does put a mentally unhealthy spin on the things I do.

For the last couple years I've still been a people pleaser but - I was at least mindful of what I was doing.  It's just taking so damn long to get to this point.  And people aren't behaving how I want and it's really making me irritated.  I can't wait to be done with all this unhealthy thinking.

Oof. Well this post sure hit home for me today! Thank you for holding up that mirror for me. I've been having similar reflections on my own stinkin' thinkin' and resentments. Donning the trauma queen tiara and martyring through and blaming everyone but myself. It's not pretty.

Like you it's not an every day thing. And yes, people are not always behaving well. But my response really does need to change. Thanks again.

Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on September 10, 2023, 10:13:54 AMOof. Well this post sure hit home for me today! Thank you for holding up that mirror for me. I've been having similar reflections on my own stinkin' thinkin' and resentments. Donning the trauma queen tiara and martyring through and blaming everyone but myself. It's not pretty.

Like you it's not an every day thing. And yes, people are not always behaving well. But my response really does need to change. Thanks again.

Happy to help.  ;)  Lately I've been doing way better at saying "no" or stopping myself from over-extending myself.  However, I scared myself over the weekend.  I had to plan the class reunion and I wasn't making people pay when they rsvp-ed.  I guess I didn't want to be fussy or whatever.  I told myself these people would pay.  It would be fine. 
Some people paid ahead of time like they were supposed to.  Well, four people didn't show up.  Another gal invited a teacher who attended with her husband (and didn't pay).  Since I had booked the arrangements I was on the hook for the balance. I did some quick math in the bathroom and (LUCKILY) luckily I had padded the registration fee and I completely broke even. 

I blamed the classmates for having poor manners and poor rsvp skills.  But it was still my fault - I should have chased down these people and pressed them, "I need money for the bill, will you be sending a venmo?".

I blamed the committee for not taking this off my plate.  Or checking in with me.  But I assumed that responsibility and it was on me to share the issue with the rest of the committee.

I blamed the gal who invited the teacher.  She should have gotten the money and paid up front.  But I couldn't argue that it was ME who told the venue the number for the food count.  I should have contacted the gal and said, "teacher didn't pay.  Did you grab payment from them when you invited?"

I didn't do these things because I wanted to be cool.  Easy-going.  And look good fronting everything.

Lesson learned.   ::)

I am so very lucky I didn't get stuck with $100 balance to pay.  Because I know right now - I would have quietly paid it and not told a soul.  So you can see - I still have a ways to go in my journey.   :-[

A happy report - my husband shared my business post on his business page in a bit of support.  He also added his own words of thanks for my help this past summer.  I was very surprised and touched.  He also slid in a private compliment while we were discussing our schedules and work loads.  I really needed both of those efforts.

A friend wants to partner up for a project and while discussing details she made a big stink about payment.  She was not going to let me give her any freebies.  I was actually a bit annoyed with her for being so bossy with me.  Worse, she actually seemed annoyed with . . . ME!   :o  The further we get into this project I'm finding myself contrite.  She is right.  All the things she threw in my face were correct and she said them to support and empower me.  In the past I've had similar situations where I allowed others to take advantage of me.  My annoyance was actually my shame for how I used to behave (and was about to again).  I'm feeling very blessed to have reached this level and to have a friend who isn't afraid to speak up.

My personal issues with my MIL continues.  I have found that I am a person who needs a default "something" to focus on.  I have also found that I have great difficulty in harnessing my focus.  I have a lot of internal thoughts but when my mind wanders I tend to focus on my issues with one particular person.  The person in question changes over the years.  In the past it has been my own mother, a SIL, a boss.  Anyone with a strong personality that was looming in my life where I felt defeated.  Like I had no control.

So it's strange that my focus person now is someone who is very passive.  And very nice to me.  And helpful.  And kind.

Yet, all I think about are the ways she is passively toxic in my life.  How much I blame her for this toxic family that I married into.  How much I used to be just like her and am trying very hard to not follow her path.  How guilty I feel for having these thoughts.

On Friday my husband was sick and unable to work a big event.  My MIL (because she is always helping) knew before me and shyly called me to explain the situation.  She tentatively explained what she was going to do to solve the issue and how maybe, if I could, might be able to help.

At this point I understand that this is a husband problem and not a MIL problem.  He should have called me to explain, to ask for my input, whatever.  Okay, that didn't happen because he was feeling so terrible.  But instead of letting us go she created this grand plan of how it could be solved - if I helped HER.

It put me on the offensive because this wasn't a problem for HER to solve.  This was actually MY problem.  A problem that my husband didn't tell me about.  Partly because he didn't consider it a problem yet.  He only wanted to rest a bit before moving forward.

Anyway, the end of the story is that on Friday night I had to work the event with just my MIL.  And I was dreading it.

Spoiler alert - the night went great.  We had a blast.  We worked well together.  Aside from the fact that she complained and gossiped (at length) about people in her personal life - I didn't have a problem with her.

Then, at the end of the night, my husband showed up to help us shut things down.  He was feeling better and was appreciative of what we did for him.  It was a great ending to a stressful day.  Except that after my husband arrived my MIL changed.  She stopped being easy and comfortable.  She focused only on him.  She tried to hide the fact that we goofed up on something (which was not a big deal).  She confessed, with some sort of shame, about something else we had done incorrectly (also not a big deal).  She disregarded me and instead watched everything her son did.  He checked his equipment, chatted with other industry vendors, and joked around with customers before coming back to us to discuss the game plan for the next day.  She watched him with fear and pride as he did the things he needed to do. 

He was not domineering or aggressive.  He was not concerned or disappointed with our errors.  He wasn't overly praiseful or fake. He was not negative in any way.  But she fed off everything he did.  I could sense her stress, relief, pride, confusion as he sail along with his regular actions.  Oblivious to her.

Baffling.  And annoying.

I was gaining respect for her during the evening.  She really did help us.  Without her help I would have had to run the event myself.  Or shut down for the night which would have hurt us financially and hurt our reputation within the industry.  She dropped her plans (only going to a sporting event but still, she gave it up) in order to help us.  And she did her part.  And she spoke up.  And she reasonably accepted responsibility when she made a mistake.  I was hard work and she worked hard!  And she treated me like a real person and not just as an extension of her son.

All that esteem tanked when my husband arrived and she changed completely.

I guess I have a problem with her problem.  Especially since my husband seems to be a trigger for her problem.

She has many sons and one daughter (my PD-SIL).  It's taken 20 years but I can see it.  All the ways she defers to her husband and worships her sons while disregarding her daughter (and by extension DILs).  Is this family toxic because of a domineering father?  Or a mother who didn't create standards for her husband (and ultimately sons) to follow?  Or both? 

My husband and his brothers all have a level of superiority due to their mother (I guess).  And they also have varying levels of shame and coping mechanisms due to their father. It's a super weird combination of being encouraged to "one up" each other to gain favor, as well as moments of solidarity as they watched others be rejected.  MIL favors whoever is with her.  Or whoever is most successful at the moment.  If a son is having a tailgate party and tickets to the college game that he's going to share with her then HE is the favorite.  If a son is buying a new house and a housewarming party is about to happen then HE is the favorite.  She rarely reaches out to them - she expects them to reach out to her.   

On the other end of the spectrum my FIL has his favorites.  One son can move the tackle box and it's just fine.  Another son could move the tackle box the same way and he will get upset and argumentative.  He is selective and consistent and everyone knows it.  Half the sons have always had their fathers approval and half never will.  They all KNOW this.

And PD-SIL was probably the one who got hurt the most.  She is not a boy so she can not possibly be a favorite with her father.  He does not really respect woman so he didn't dote upon his only little girl.  Also since she is not a boy, her mother expected her to play the woman role of worshiping and catering to the boys.  SIL has many stories of how she was treated growing up and I do believe her.  I feel for her and always have.  But I'm at a point where I cannot let her pain, hurt me.  She was saddled with her PD but she hasn't learned how to do something about it.  That's not something I can endure.

It's no wonder that most of my SIL's do not come around often.  It's just too hard.  Maybe at one time we all leaned on each other but as their children came into the family these SIL's sort of clung to their own families or formed their own support systems to cope.  Not having children gave them less of a reason to keep to what I thought we had.  The old me was too dysfunctional so it's no wonder they checked out with me too.  I was probably part of the problem back then.

I also worked with my husband's brother on Saturday morning.  We had to work for an hour alone and usually I feel awkward around him.  But with no other family members around it was easy for us to chat.  That felt good.  To get that sort of positive interaction within the family.

I cannot solve these people.  I can only solve myself.  But how can I deal with them while also dealing with my own insecurities?  I feel like a failure when I'm around these people (they are almost ALWAYS together).  That is also a me problem.  I can't let their toxic upbringing (and current coping mechanisms) get me down.  I don't know how my husband was able to endure it.

I feel a sense of growing lately. 

1.  A casual friend stopped in and we were chatting.  This woman and I have a mutual relationship with a toxic person.  We usually spend time complaining about our recent experiences with her.  When I chatted with my casual friend I mindfully told myself that I wasn't going to complain about our mutual toxic person.  No matter what!  (the old me used to say, "So, have you seen SoandSo lately?")  She started to complain on her own but I didn't engage and the conversation carried on.  I felt good about that.

2. A friend was concerned that she started a rumor.  Long story - but the "rumor" was so silly and small that many people would not have thought twice about what she said.  Still, she persisted in being upset about it.  I found myself charmed by her earnest effort to correct her mistake.  In the past I would have rolled my eyes or complained to my husband about her.  Like, "WHO CARES, right?"  Now I feel blessed to have a friend who behaves in this way.

3. A close friend asked me to pray for a specific need she had.  I felt honored that she thought to confide in me.  Now I will be able to give her extra attention in the coming weeks.

4.  Someone else needed real help and she called me.  I didn't really want to do the project but I did - because there was a real need.  Not because I wanted her to like me.  It felt good to assist someone in this way.

5.  I reached out to a sister-in-law whose father is doing poorly.  I know she'd never do that for me but I texted her anyway.  I didn't carefully craft words, I didn't read and reread the sentences hoping for a favorable response that would fulfill my desire to be a beacon for her.  I just jotted off a few lines and set my phone down.  It didn't cost me anything. Not even emotional labor.  She replied back and that was nice.  The end. 

6.  Another friend was planning to have lunch with a mutual friend.  We knew our mutual friend was acting "off" and I casually wondered why.  My friend is a bit of a gossip.  She came to see me after the lunch (on an unrelated matter) and said, "wow!  Mutual Friend has all kinds of issues going on."  My heart sank because I really like both these woman.  I didn't want original friend to gossip about this other woman's real problems.  Instead of wanting to gather "dirt" I found myself hoping that original friend would stop.  I was so happy when she quickly said, "well . . . anyway.  She's going to be fine.  Eventually."  And then she smoothly switched gears and chatted about something else.  It was a great feeling to know that I'm rubbing shoulders with real people who have flaws (tendency to gossip) but are able to do the honorable thing (not gossip about a nice person the second their back is turned).  Even better was the feeling of actually NOT wanting to know this private thing that I had no business knowing.  The old me definitely would have said all the right words to get the story.  I wouldn't have repeated it - but I would have enjoyed knowing the story.

7. I declined a friends invite to a party.  I NEED to have some downtime and I had scheduled it for the day she ended up planning the party.  I told her the truth.  That it sounded like fun but I needed time to myself.  She replied back with positive emojis and "Good for you! Enjoy!"  What a nice feeling to be able to be honest about my plans.  To feel no guilt.  To have a good friend react positively to what I need to do for myself.

While I still struggle with other things - these are the things that I consider very good.  I am mindful of them.  I think on them and feel happy about how I now behave.  I'm hoping that in time these sorts of thought processes are natural.  Like I don't even notice that I'm rooting for others (or myself).

Turning off the gossip machines does feel so good, doesn't it! I have a couple of friends who perpetually "did you hear about ..." Nope. Inevitably it's drama about someone I've not seen or spoken with literally in years, and it's rarely just to share happy news, so no. Not my stuff and don't want to play. I'm getting better at "I hate that for her, hope things straighten out sooner rather than later..." and change the subject or "Wow look at the time! I need to bounce but we'll talk soon."

I'm reminded of my brother saying: If they'll say it TO you about the last one, they'll say it ABOUT you to the next one. Maybe it's not intended maliciously but it's more of a habit, but if it's not something you can do to actually help it's just gossip.

Quote from: moglow on September 28, 2023, 11:56:21 AMI'm reminded of my brother saying: If they'll say it TO you about the last one, they'll say it ABOUT you to the next one. Maybe it's not intended maliciously but it's more of a habit, but if it's not something you can do to actually help it's just gossip.

So true!!!!


So yesterday I felt pretty good.  Today I feel the opposite.  My oldest niece is pregnant.  I'm happy for her.  I'm not surprised.  She's been married a couple years and it makes total sense.  They will be great parents.

I don't want to be pregnant.  I don't want to raise a child.  That ship sailed long ago.

But I'm sad today.  It's almost like I WANT to be sad, rather than actually be sad. 

I am jealous of my brothers big family (now growing again with his first grandchild).  The fun stories they have.  The excitement of someone always doing something and they are all included in each others lives.

Someone posted something on social media today that points out that 100 years after we die - we are all in the same boat.  Dead, buried, with only photographs to remind anyone we existed.  All the people we know are also dead so literally no one on earth will have met us or known us.  The point was to remind people to enjoy life and not focus so much on the evils of success and accumulation of wealth.  But I found some comfort in it.  When we are dust, my life is no different than my brothers (or anyone else).

My dad made a passing comment to my husband the other day.  Something big is going on in our community that will affect the way things are done 10 years down the road.  My dad, (who is very comfortable with the idea of dying) sort of shrugged and said, "It doesn't matter to me - I'll be dead."  When my husband looked confused my dad explained that no one in his family has lived past the age of 75.  At age 70 he has five years left.  He's been tying up loose ends financially.  He's got his funeral planned.  Everything is in place and he cheerfully goes about his days.

That makes me feel so . . . like what is the point of anything?  What is the point of painting your home or spending a little extra money on the great couch?  What is the point of building a business, especially if you have no one to leave it to?  What is the point of planning parties or being involved with clubs or committees.  Why travel when your memories die with you?  Why bother to make anything nice? 

The last few days I've learned of 4 local people who passed away suddenly.  These were people 40-50 years in age. Busy, active people who filled their lives with many good things.  Now gone, leaving holes in their families, neighborhoods, workplaces, everywhere.  They didn't get the chance to sort out their possessions or take even care of the breakfast dishes.  Their secrets are hiding in drawers that will need to be emptied by others.  I just don't know what to focus on in my life. 

I need to turn this mindset around.  And I will.  Just letting out a little steam here.

Yesterday I posted a good story on another person's thread about how proud I was, for the way I navigated my annual party.  All of it was true - it was a great day. 

But most of the day yesterday my thoughts kept drifting back to my most problematic PD in-law.  Saturday night (of the festival weekend) she stopped to talk to my husband and I.  She started the conversation by stroking my pony tail and saying, "Gah, the prettiest hair ever!.  It makes me sick how pretty your hair is."  She was drinking but we were polite and my husband especially made efforts to be fun and joking with her.  After a few minutes she wanted to do a selfie, something she never wants to do with us.  We humored her and took the pic.  She looked back at her phone and said, "Jesus, you even have the prettiest eyes.  Pretty eyes and pretty hair.  You BITCH!"

She said it like how plenty of woman say "You bitch!" in a funny joking way with their friends.  But we don't do that with each other.  I don't do that with anyone.  I wasn't offended because I "know" this.  I understand this.  And I know how she operates.  It was just another indication of how very differently we treat others.  And how uncomfortable she was making me.

Then she bragged about her child who won an award (which was well deserved, honestly).  But we were sort of "forced" to give her the attention she wanted.  Then she invited us to a party on behalf of her mother-in-law.  Which was interesting because her mother-in-law had already made a mention weeks ago and I learned PD person was supposed to invite us then (but never did).

Anyway, there were times at the Sunday party when she looked sad and I did nothing.  In my pictures I took of the group, she looked sad.  So on Monday I started to think about her.  How could I help?  How would that conversation go?  What if she approaches me first?  How would I reply if she said "this" or "that"?

And I wondered, after such a great Sunday party, why was I was obsessed with her?

Today I am thinking of the following quote:

"The key to happiness is letting each situation be what it is instead of what you think it should be."

I want her to respect, love and appreciate me - good and bad.  I want her to be sober and kind not drunk and needy.  I want her to give me real compliments and not back handed aggression.  I want to have a real conversation with her where I can tell her how amazing she is and that if she drops her attitude that we could be great friends and not competition or enemies. 

But

She IS a PD person.  In 20 years of both real and passive effort I have not been able to crack the code.
She IS a person who begrudges my nice features, even though she is objectively much more beautiful than me.
She IS a person who expects others to fawn over her.
She IS a person who pouts at parties when she's not being paid attention to.
She IS a person who withholds invites until the last minute, hoping we will not be able to attend.

I have to accept these realities and stop thinking that someday she will learn, understand or grow.  She DOES treat us unfairly and does NOT deserve our extra efforts at this point in the game.  Truly, we should have excused ourselves and walked away on Saturday night the second she called me a bitch.

I AM the sort of person who doesn't turn her back towards people who need help.
She needs help.
But the reality is that I cannot help her.
I am not equipped and it is not my job.
Only SHE can help herself.
I need to get over myself and accept that my love, kindness and friendship are not going to work.
I need to accept that I'm hurting myself after she hurts me and that is not fair to my life.
These are the facts and I need to move on.

Today I will.

"The key to happiness is letting each situation be what it is instead of what you think it should be." This is very helpful. Thank you for sharing it.

Hi. Going to make a new topic, but before I do, I would like to say how inspiring I find your thread. Even if I don't write in very often to Out of the FOG.
Please keep on writing. I'm cheering you on all the way, and you inspire me to post myself ( definitely a reader rather than a contributor, but thinking all the time. It never ends does it ?)

Quote from: feralcat on October 04, 2023, 11:38:40 AMHi. Going to make a new topic, but before I do, I would like to say how inspiring I find your thread. Even if I don't write in very often to Out of the FOG.
Please keep on writing. I'm cheering you on all the way, and you inspire me to post myself ( definitely a reader rather than a contributor, but thinking all the time. It never ends does it ?)

Thanks for these kinds words.  I strive to write my experiences as authentically as possible and at times I review my old posts and try to determine if I'm getting better or going in a wrong direction.

For instance, yesterday I traded PD stories with my new friend.  She was complaining about her person.  I said some comforting things and then shared my most recent PD issue with her.  She seemed to change the subject sort of quickly and I felt put out by that. 

I really do like and trust this newer friend and I was disappointed that I didn't "get" what I wanted from her.  I had posted before about how she let me down in this way and I was starting to doubt my friendship with this person.  Perhaps she doesn't like me as much as I thought.  Perhaps she has a flaw of not really caring - past the surface level.  Maybe she's using me?

She ended the conversation on a good note and I smiled, pretending that I was "okay" with how she just treated me. But thinking more about it this morning I realized a few things.

- Friend was having a stressful day.  She was late to our appointment and she had texted me that she had to finish up something specific and would be there "soon".  That irritated me but I understood the task and was only annoyed because it was going to jam up the rest of my morning.  I solved it by saying, "okay but I will have to leave by xyz for my next appointment so let me know if you run too late."  She was apologetic when she arrived, our appointment was good, and she respected that I had to wrap things up at the time I said.  All was well.

- I complained about my PD after she complained about hers.  She was interested and responsive directly after I shared with her.

And he's the part that is usually left out of these sorts of stories . . .

- I then shared ANOTHER story with her.  And THEN compared it to something else the PD did in the past.  I was detailed enough that I could see her eyes float away and her mind start to wander.  When I finished she kindly smiled and said, "that's terrible . . . well, I should be going."

Opps.

I realized that it's one thing to type endless posts on this thread.  It feels good to know that people read my words.  This is sort of my therapy and I can do this for hours if I choose.  It's also okay to vent to my husband at length when I'm really upset.  It's another thing to side track a conversation and talk - at length - about a person she doesn't personally know. 

My friend DID give me what I needed.   But I took advantage of that feeling and went way longer and much more negatively about my PD person.  I wanted more.  A lot more feedback from her.  She didn't end the conversation quickly.  She GAVE me attention and support.  But she didn't have time in her busy day (or the interest) to just flat out listen to me bitch about a person and relationship she wasn't a part of.

I took advantage of her.  Plus I sort of lied.  I told her earlier that I need to get to an appointment.  And yet, I found time in my schedule to complain.   ::)

I'm embarrassed to say that I KNOW I've done this in the past with other people.  I mistook their confessions and their mutual struggles as something we could bond over.  I have a habit of dwelling and complaining because it FEELS GOOD for someone to say:

"that's terrible."
"I can't believe that happened to you."
"You don't deserve that." 
"He/She is awful and they are lucky you put up with it." 
"Don't listen to them.  You are a good person!"

In the past these words didn't feel like pity.  It felt like something I DESERVED.  And it's never been healthy.

My newer friend isn't a robot.  She didn't share her PD complaint because she wanted to get closer to me, or become my therapist for 20 minutes.  She certainly didn't want to complete with me.  She wanted to vent a little and get on with her day.

I had already vented my annoyances here and with my husband.  I truly didn't "need" to share with someone to get their feedback or to solve my problem.  I am healthy and safe.  I should have shared my first story (it DID feel good) and put my focus back on her or I should have just gave her the support she needed.

My newer friend has probably already forgotten this.  But I am going to remember this and be more appropriate in the future.  Sharing is good.  OVER-sharing, for no reason, is what makes healthy people pause a friendship. 

Because I'm healthy enough to realize for myself:

"it's terrible"  =  "it's terrible the way some people act."
"I can't believe that happened to you."  =   "I'm not surprised that PD treated me that way,"
"You don't deserve that."  =  "I don't deserve that and that is why I am working on boundaries"
"He/She is awful and they are lucky you put up with it."  =  "I am lucky that I don't have to put up with that."
"Don't listen to them.  You are a good person!"  =  "I am a healthy person.  I'm moving on."

I'm not striving for "good person" anymore.  "Healthy person" is my new goal.

Another quick post about my PD SIL's most recent antics.

Okay, so she was supposed to invite us to her in-laws party.  She failed to do so until she drunkenly half-told us last week.  Fine.  I knew that would happen.

The party is tonight.

Just now, only hours before the party, she sent a little travel video to a handful of MY (MINE) RANDOM FRIENDS with a fun breezy, "hey we should all go". 

We are all interested in this very specific thing.  However, none of us are ever on a group message together and would NEVER go on a trip together.  Also, in 20ish years, my SIL has never willingly invited me to any sort of fun little trip.  Never.  But today she sends a message including me in something special.  (it will never happen and she knows it).

I suspect this is "love bombing".  She disregarded me and kept me from attending a party that I would have actually went to.  And now, mere hours before said party, she makes up for it by inviting me to an extra special, exclusive, thing that I know will never happen.

A healthy person, who felt bad, would have reached out to me and said, "hey, I was supposed to invite you to this party and I failed to remember.  The party is this evening and I hope you can drop in."  Instead she has arranged it perfectly.  She DID invite me, didn't she?  She did it in such a way that she doesn't have to deal with me tonight.  BUT she has "fixed it" by SHOWING my friends how much of a warm, fun, great SIL she is.   :roll:  :sly:  :applause:  :sadno:

I'm venting here because I don't want to complain to anyone (except for my husband) in real life.  I'm super annoyed but I'm not going to let it ruin my afternoon.