Out of the FOG

Hi all,

I haven't been on here in a while. My mother died 2 weeks ago. I haven't spoken to her, my father or sister in 3 years. However, I have been speaking with my extended family. We do live quite far away so we haven't seen anyone during this time.

Apparently, my mother was diagnosed with cancer over Christmas. No one in my family told me this until after she died. I had no idea. My father and sister made the rest of my family promise not to tell me anything. My mother didn't want me to know because she said she would never see her grandchildren(my children) again. Not me, but my children. My father/sister even told them not to tell me that she died. Well, someone finally did tell me.

I don't know what to make of this... the fact that my mother took her bitterness, sadness and possibly hatred to the grave. The fact that my sister and father made my family swore not to tell me. And the fact that my family listened to them possibly out of fear, guilt or something else.

It's odd too because during these past 3 years, I have contemplated if I should give a relationship with my parents a go one more time. I don't think I ever thought "never again". Or maybe sometimes I did. I'm in a fog at the moment.   

We plan to visit family soon. One asked if I called my father... do I call my father? I don't even know what to say to most of my family because they did not tell me my mother was dying. They told me they loved me and were in a tough position... but the funny thing is half of them don't even like my father/sister! They know how he and my sister are, as well as what I grew-up with.

This is such a horrific story. I have so many emotions and mixed feelings as one could imagine. Hurt, sad, grief, embarrassment because this is my family, confusion, etc. I don't know how to process all of this.

Any guidance? Advice? Has anything similar happened to anyone on here?

Thanks in advance.

Wow, that's awful. I don't have any specific advice for you but my heart goes out to you. My estranged mum also died recently but I didn't have this thing where people hid it from me, that would add a whole other layer of feelings when there are already so many!

Take care of yourself, rest a lot. This many emotions is tiring. Let yourself feel them all.
:Bighug:

Oh, Relieved 333, I am so sorry to hear this, it truly is horrific. The whole concept of making adults "swear" to keep such a secret is appalling on two levels, the obvious one of malice that anyone would act in such a manner, and the slightly less obvious but in some ways more appalling is that thinking adult persons would agree to and honor this.
To a much lesser extent (death of a family friend) I had this happen to me and I had a long talk with my nephew about how it was OK that he told me, that his mother had absolutely no right to make him promise not to tell me. He was put in an untenable position, and felt quite guilty that he had let it slip.

I can't give you any advice, I am sorry, but I wish for you some internal peace to come soon. I personally would be unlikely to forgive, or accept apologies from the people who were complicit in the secret, no matter how "tough" a position they were in. They let convenience and comfort color their moral obligation.
But I am angry at those who continue to refuse to understand. My feelings are based on the fact that I have trouble moving past the awfulness.

Peace, rest and self-care to you, take joy in your chosen family.  :bighug:

This is truly horrific. I’m sorry.

This reads exactly like something my family would do. Where I’m from it’s called cutting your nose off to spite your face. My family are masters at this kind of behavior.

People do not change unless they put in a lot of work and look at the difficult, painful parts of themselves that they have spent a life time avoiding.

I don’t know if it will be of any comfort but it’s highly unlikely you would have had a deathbed reunion with your mother where she acknowledged your pain, hurt and her part in it.

When my father thought he was dying he said some of the cruelest things to me, as if he was making sure to get in all the digs he wouldn’t be able to after he died.

As far as for the rest of the family my observation as been that dysfunctional families don’t happen in a vacuum. They impact the entire family system to varying degrees. My wider family also don’t particularly like my father and siblings and they claim to know how hard I had it growing up and how terrible they still are to me yet they continue to be “neutral” which is essentially choosing a side.

Since going NC with my father and siblings I have seen just how dysfunctional the rest of the family is. They are not as bad but they are far from healthy. I have started distancing myself from them too.

I’m truly sorry that these people are your family. I’m sorry for the loss of your mother and the healthy, loving relationship with her you didn’t and won’t have.

I hope you are able to find some comfort in these words and my experience.

This really is a horrific story Relieved333. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I agree, the making adults swear to keep this secret is disturbing. It shows you exactly what you're dealing with in the people who asked and the people who agreed to keep silent.

I haven't been in this position exactly but I've been asked (told) not to tell family when my stepdad dies. Yes, my uNPDmother told me not to tell HIS CHILDREN when he dies. First thing I'm doing when he dies, call his children.

Sadly, you're going to have to process all this betrayal and decide if any of these extended relationships are worth keeping. This might sweep a bunch of people out of your life but that's okay. You may just decide they aren't worth your time.

Practice self-care (walks, exercise, baths, books) do what you need to do to get through this turmoil. Put all those other people on the back burner in your mind for now until you decide how to handle them. There is no rush. You might decide you don't want to visit these extended family members, and that would be perfectly fine.

Thank you all for taking the time to write. I can't make any sense of this. These other family members told me they love me and they hate that I found out this way. It is so utterly confusing.

"I don't know if it will be of any comfort but it's highly unlikely you would have had a deathbed reunion with your mother where she acknowledged your pain, hurt and her part in it."
- I think you're right, GettingOOTF... I don't think she would have ever acknowledged my hurt, pain and her part in it.

-Good for you, SunnyMeadow. I agree, if I were in your position or one of my relatives' position, I would definitely tell.

Thanks, Fuzzydog. "He was put in an untenable position, and felt quite guilty that he had let it slip."
- Did he say why he felt he couldn't tell you from the start? Was the pressure too great from his mother?

Thank you for the kind words, raindrop.

My husband said, "why do you want to see them? They didn't tell you your mother was dying and didn't plan to tell you she died. Only one person told you AFTER she died".

For some reason I feel the need to see everyone. I don't know if I can face my father. I can't believe he went to this level. My sister, no way because she can be vicious.
However, I don't know what to say to them? I still haven't heard from a few family members... they know that I found out my mother died.

I can't get a hold of my therapist because she's been busy dealing with lockdown and what comes with that.

I feel lost. I already told relatives I'm coming but now I have to figure out what to say. :sadno:

Relieved333, the sad thing is that my nephew is an educated 33 year old man, with a wonderful wife and a son. He has a responsible job and life and his highly intelligent, and yes, under the right circumstances (usually involving other members of my FOO) will just cave to pressure. We've talked about this, and I think he understands that such pointless promises made under duress are not honorable, but it's still hard. I get that. Poor guy.
Learning these lessons is very difficult, but it gets harder and harder for me to forgive the hurting of others for fear of confrontation.

In my experience, very sadly Pds use illness and even death as a further source of drama and supply.  When my unNpd mother broke her hip she told my en (likely BPd) sis not to say anything until months later when she called herself expecting help and without a shred of recognition of how that exclusion would have affected me.  Similarly my own father (admittedly we were estranged, but he was close -surprise surprise -to said sister) was dead for two months before she deigned to let me know.  It almost takes my breath away when I think about it, like a punch to the stomach.  But it reminds me how I need to stay away and focus on people who are important. And who deserve my notice and my time. Despite the flying monkey phone calls that happen infrequently.  It is hard, though. I completely sympathise and only you can know what is right for you.

Your poor nephew, Fuzzydog. I hope you're able to have a good relationship with him.

Thanks,  Serendipity12. " It almost takes my breath away when I think about it, like a punch to the stomach.  But it reminds me how I need to stay away and focus on people who are important."
— Agreed. I feel like I've been massively punched in the stomach. Sometimes I feel like vomiting.

I keep going back and forth... what if I continued the relationship with my mother, father and sister just to keep the peace? Put-up more boundaries. Keep things on a very surface level. But then again, would it have really worked in the end? I was in this vicious cycle since I was a child. My sister the golden child, me the scapegoat. My parents had a sense of entitlement. They're the parents, I'm still the child.

What killed me was my mother(and father) wanted to be these amazing grandparents while pushing me aside. They wanted the title. To show their "grandchildren" off. To be the playful ones but asking them to be flexible was tiresome. A couple times they were. But everything had to be on their terms.

How could they claim to love my children so much but not like me? My children are a part of me!

So her dying wish was for the family not to tell me because she will never see her grandchildren again. Well, I found out. Now there is strife within my extended family because my sister is livid I found out. I think a few of my family members are finished with my father and sister.

My mother and father had many chances to reach out and mend our relationship. Why was I the one who always had to reach out? ...Especially after they hurt me and refused to acknowledge my feelings?

My emotions are all over the place. I don't want to feel guilty but it's creeping in. But normal people do not do these things, right? My mother had the choice before she passed to get in touch with me, right?

🙏🏻

This is NOT your fault. That guilt is FOG. It is ime the purpose of what they did to you. To 'punish' you for not remaining in your 'role'. Your M reaped what she sowed with you. Instead of taking any kind of responsibility she tried to martyr herself as a loving grandma who couldnt see her grandchildren. She didnt really care about your children except to use them for props in her fantasy world of lies.
Sorry to sound so harsh. Im so angry for you.
Please give youself compassion and love. Be to you and your inner child as well as your own children what your M was encapable of. But dont waste one minute of your present moment in this life regretting what you had no control over.
I am sorry for your greif and pain.
I fully expect to be in your shoes someday soon. I am NC with all Foo too.

PS I would not call father.

Quote from: Relieved333 on July 22, 2020, 09:16:35 AMMy emotions are all over the place. I don't want to feel guilty but it's creeping in. But normal people do not do these things, right? My mother had the choice before she passed to get in touch with me, right?

YES.  Normal people do NOT do these things.  Your mother ABSOLUTELY had the choice to contact you.  From my own experience and that of others, I think it is likely that you are going to have times when you start to feel guilt, but please remind yourself of this, over and over if you have to.  Intellectually, you know this to be true.  Normal people do not do these things.  Your mother had the choice to contact you.

I am very sorry that this has happened to you.  The betrayal here is horrid.     

Thank you, Peanut Butter! You are so right and thank you for being angry for me. You have put my feelings and thoughts into words. I'm still processing everything and it's really hard.

"This is NOT your fault. That guilt is FOG. It is ime the purpose of what they did to you. To 'punish' you for not remaining in your 'role'. Your M reaped what she sowed with you. Instead of taking any kind of responsibility she tried to martyr herself as a loving grandma who couldnt see her grandchildren."
—-This exactly. My mother mainly played the victim card. All I wanted was for her to see that her and I had to make amends! I was ignored, as always.

Thanks, xyzo. The betrayal is unfathomable.

I just looked back at emails and texts from 3 years ago. My dad sent a somewhat cold, short email saying "haven't heard from you in a while". I kindly replied asking how he and mom were, telling him about our kids and what has been happening, sending my phone number again, etc. NO response.

Same with a text a month later. Sent mom and dad a nice text with photos. NO response.

They would send gifts for my children on their bdays and Christmas. My children would mail thank you cards. NO response. After a year or so, I didn't bother with the thank you cards.

I know they have smeared me. My mom's side didn't fully buy it. However, I think my dad's did. Even though I have been in contact with relatives on my dad's side... not one person has sent me a condolence message, card, etc.

I have not called my aunt/uncle and cousins on my dad's side since my mom's death. Should I?

Should I even call my father? Again, he, my mother and my sister made my family swear not to tell me about her illness and death. My father and sister are so angry I found out. I don't know if my mom's side will ever speak to them again. Strangely, I feel sorry for my dad and sister. They have so much hate in their hearts. And of course, they did lose my mother.

I still lost my mom. I am a saddened by her death. There were some good times. But I tried. I did. I was never heard. I couldn't take their blame, silent treatments, gaslighting, cruel words and guilt-trips anymore.

I am seeing a few family members from my mom's side soon. I am glad that one relative finally told me my mom passed, the day after she died. I still love them. I am angry but I can't yell at them or anything like that. I want answers though. What would you say to them?

I cant say that I know what I would or wouldnt do or say because i havnt experienced anything like this although it is one of my fears. My ubpdM is very similar to me with no remorse, punishing attitude, and yet plays victim to others.
I relate to your empathy for your D and S having lost someone they love.
Perhaps  to send cards/emails of condolences?
Will they have the same awareness of your pain?
I dont know about actually bringing myself face to face with them. It seems like trying to keep this from you may be a 'baiting' of you. They may want you to confront them so they can dump all their shame, blame, and neglecting/ignoring behavior on you. Which is projection since you tried to connect but they wouldn't.
I would want to only allow persons who respect my decisions and recognize my grief around me while I was in this 'shocked' 'vulnerable' state.
:grouphug: Be good to yourself! You deserve care during this newest trauma.

Relieved333,

I'm sorry for your loss.

I truly understand what you are going through.  Nobody told me when my mom had a triple bypass, nobody told me she had terminal cancer, and my father and sisters told all of my extended family not to tell me when she passed away, that they would tell me.  Well, guess what? They didn't!!!

Nobody called when my mother passed away. Not to tell me. Not to send condolences. Nothing. Crickets.  I found out later when my dad called my son and said, "Tell your mom her mother is dead." My knees buckled underneath me and I nearly dropped to the floor as the flood of betrayal hit my mind from aunts and uncles that acted like they were my best friend.

When I finally made it back to my home town, I had to go from cemetery to cemetery in search of where my mother was buried. 

You are absolutely right!  It his horrific!!! Even typing about it now makes my nerves burn.  That was eight years ago, and just one month ago, I was finally able to verbalize it to my aunt.  And to top it off, I was then blamed and called cold and heartless because I didn't show up at a funeral I knew nothing about.  My daughter was pregnant at the time and when she found out I was in fear she would lose the baby because of how upset she was.   Fortunately, the baby was fine.

I guess if I had any advice, it would be to question the relatives that didn't inform you.  I sat with it for years because people advised me not to say anything.  But, if you are going to see them, IMHO, they owe you an explanation.  It will probably be weak and wishy washy, but at least you get to say it. 

This is one of the most cruel acts a person can do to someone. Nobody deserves that kind of disrespect and pain.  I still can't get my head around it.  They have all shown you who they are. Now, take care of yourself.   :bighug:

Thanks again, PeanutButter

"I dont know about actually bringing myself face to face with them. It seems like trying to keep this from you may be a 'baiting' of you. They may want you to confront them so they can dump all their shame, blame, and neglecting/ignoring behavior on you."
—This is what I'm afraid of. This is what they've pretty much done my entire life.
I really hope you won't go through this.

Wow, Adria. We have had the same experience. Yes, a relative told me about my mom's passing a day after she died but the feelings are the same. Keeping a mother's illness and death from her daughter is an appalling thing to do to someone. I still don't know how to handle this.

Your father told your son and not you. That is betrayal and so hurtful. I don't understand how people can be this cruel and are able to sleep at night.

After you found out about your mother's death, did you still speak with your extended relatives? Or did you just reconnect with your aunt 8 yrs later?

I did see my relatives. It was good and bad. I told them I was hurt no one told me. Mainly all of them said they were in a tough spot. One relative said "it wasn't my place to tell". One said "we tried so hard to tell you, we wanted to tell you so badly". What does one say to that??

Apparently my mother never gave a full explanation to anyone. All I know is she said she would never see my children(her grandchildren) again. How could she say she loved my children so much, who are a part of me, but didn't truly want a relationship with me? I was in the way.

I found out my sister told my relatives one of the reasons I was putting up boundaries is because "I was jealous of the relationship my children had with my mother". This is absurd and a complete lie. My mother did not see my children that much. Plus I would never care or be jealous of such petty nonsense. This one relative said he didn't believe my sister. But I know a few probably do.

I can't believe I still haven't heard from several relatives. I can't believe these people believe such lies. How can my family accept what my sister/father and deceased mother did? This is beyond cruel, spiteful and hateful... No one can see this? One relative asked me "what happened between us"? I actually have to explain? What they have done should speak for itself.

I can't believe it has come to this. I have experienced such neglect, abuse, lack of empathy and understanding, disregard for my feelings, silent treatments, silencing and bullying from these 3 people and no one said anything. No one could fully see what I've been through. Many of my relatives know how vicious my father and sister can be. One relative said he saw my mother become more and more like them over the years. A few said they never liked them. They probably won't speak to them again. And I still felt like I had to defend myself... really?!

It's a confusing and horrendous situation to be in. This was just a huge punch in the stomach. The betrayal is unfathomable. I will move on eventually. I will focus on myself, my husband and children like I have been over the past few years. However, I hope this awful feeling passes soon.

"I did see my relatives. It was good and bad. I told them I was hurt no one told me. Mainly all of them said they were in a tough spot. One relative said "it wasn't my place to tell". One said "we tried so hard to tell you, we wanted to tell you so badly". What does one say to that?? "

If you have the stomach for it, (I actually do, now) you can ask them (as gently as possible) why they, as thinking adults, wouldn't follow their own instincts and either protest or ignore a directive to keep quiet about such a thing. That's the worst kind of promise to make, the kind that will cause so much pain to another.
But in the moment, I can see how it would be difficult to confront and respond.

My NM is 96. I fear that my FOO will do the same. I am putting measures in place so that I will be informed when she passes.

I am so sorry that this awfulness has happened to you.

QuoteI can't believe it has come to this. I have experienced such neglect, abuse, lack of empathy and understanding, disregard for my feelings, silent treatments, silencing and bullying from these 3 people and no one said anything. No one could fully see what I've been through. Many of my relatives know how vicious my father and sister can be. One relative said he saw my mother become more and more like them over the years. A few said they never liked them. They probably won't speak to them again. And I still felt like I had to defend myself... really?!

This is so true! I have experienced the exact same with my father and two sisters, and also my mother becoming more and more like them over the years.

After nobody told me about mother's death, I heard through a grapevine that one aunt was telling everyone, "I called Adria."  A complete lie.  I was so upset over it, I changed my phone number so nobody could call me with their fabricated stories anymore.  I also heard the line, "It wasn't my place to tell," when I finally confronted my aunt years later.  What in the world????

I even wrote and published a book about my story with my family.  I found out some aunts and uncles got a hold of it, even cousins who I was very close with all my life, but nobody reached out.  Yes, they believe all the dirty lies of my father and sisters, narcs and sociopaths.  Explaining, even to the lengths of taking four years to write my story, did no good.  They choose to believe the lies because my dad can buy them with his money and he's good at always being the victim, and my sisters are great actresses and play the pity party game.  I've been left, like you, totally defenseless.  Evil always runs by the same play book, lies and manipulation. 

QuoteIt's a confusing and horrendous situation to be in. This was just a huge punch in the stomach. The betrayal is unfathomable.

Yes, there is no other way to put it.  The lengths they go to is something we can't imagine. It truly is mind boggling.  Eventually, the feelings will subside.  Keep living a good strong life for you and your family.  Never let them change who you are.  We would never want to carry that kind of viciousness in our hearts.  Those kinds of actions are practiced and honed in on over years and years until they no longer have a conscience. So in the end, they are the losers.

Again, I cannot express enough how sorry I am that you have to experience this.  Sending peace and blessings your way. Adria

Quote from: Relieved333 link=topic=85289.msg734897#msg734897
I found out my sister told my relatives one of the reasons I was putting up boundaries is because "I was jealous of the relationship my children had with my mother". This is absurd and a complete lie. My mother did not see my children that much. Plus I would never care or be jealous of such petty nonsense. This one relative said he didn't believe my sister. But I know a few probably do.

IME this would be pure Projection. Sister was the one that was jealous. She and mother both was jealous of you and your children's relationship ime. Instead of awareness and ownership of what they felt, because they deny their unwanted emotions and project them onto you, they had a conversation about how jealous you were. :wacko:

Im so incredibly sorry for this unspeakable betrayal and horrendous abuse you continue to suffer. Please take to heart that this is reflective of who they are. Your healing and recovery has highlighted a goodness from within you. That goodness is what they are attacking.

One then asks what kind of person despises goodness?

I pray for this dark cloud raining on your spirit to pass. I pray for you shelter from the storm surrounded by only those whose worthiness is evident in their love for you. You deserve no less that 100% loyalty!
:hug:

"If you have the stomach for it, (I actually do, now) you can ask them (as gently as possible) why they, as thinking adults, wouldn't follow their own instincts and either protest or ignore a directive to keep quiet about such a thing."
--- Hi Fuzzdoyg, I did ask but not fully. They all pretty much said that it wasn't their place to tell and they were in a tough spot. Only one relative said he should have told me. I don't know if they'll fully grasp what they have done. They didn't want to get involved... that was their reasoning.
I am glad that you are putting the proper measures in place with your own family. I wish I did.

Adria, good for you for publishing a book! What an accomplishment! Thank you for your encouraging words.

You might be right, PeanutButter..."She and mother both was jealous of you and your children's relationship ime. Instead of awareness and ownership of what they felt, because they deny their unwanted emotions and project them onto you, they had a conversation about how jealous you were"
---I never looked at it this way. There were times when I thought they were jealous but not of the relationship between my children and me. But looking back, maybe they were.

Another thing which is perplexing is one of my relatives asked if I called my father. Am I suppose to be the one to call?! I mean what he and my sister did was beyond hateful. I never would think this would happen to me. Nothing I have done or didn't do warrants this kind of abuse or even any past abuse I have experienced from them. I don't know what was going through my mother's mind to do something like this. I know she was angry and hurt. However, she and my father had every opportunity to make amends. They didn't. They put 100% of the responsibility and blame on me, even though they have done and said hurtful things. They sent my children gifts for their birthdays but that is all. I feel like it was an act of punishment rather than "this was her dying wish".

Do I call my father? Write him a letter? I haven't heard from my father's side at all either and I have been in contact with them before this. I don't understand.

The reason it is confusing is because it is a minipulation ime.

After choosing to NOT make amends with you M darvo'd and smeared you to extended family. She acted as if she and F are the ones who have been wronged. F is now continuing that since she has passed by claiming you dont call him?

Now if you call father that is what you will face imo. He will say how wrong you are/were and that you should have made amends to your M before she died (because she refused to make amends with you before she died). And that now you need to make amends to him and S.

Heres the way I see it. If you had no reason to call them before, and every reason to protect yourself from them, that has not changed but this is actually reinforcing that the decision you made was right. They want to harm you. Protect yourself from any more harm!

If they cannot even acknowledge any of the reality about what has happened between you and them then there is no way to engage in a way that wont end up with you further harmed.

I wish you would get an apology so you could make up with F and S. But I highly doubt that is a possibility. The kind of people that act in the way you describe are not the kind of people who ever admit mistakes or apologise for hurting someone.

:bighug: Im so deeply sorry for the pain you are experiencing. YOU DIDNT DESERVE ANY OF THIS!

Relieved333, your story, and others like it on this thread, have prompted me to start taking real measures in the event that my FOO tries to pull this crap when my 96 year old NM passes. I appreciate so much that you all have shared this so I can start to talk to some of the peripheral people that would be notified, but that no one would think to swear to secrecy.
You are all so brave, I am grateful to be here with such a collection of wise and strong people.
Thank you.
And really, doesn't it all just suck so much that we have to have these conversations in the first place?
:bighug:

I too have a "mole" in my parents' circle to tell me if anybody dies. It's totally normal!  :tongue2:

I'm really really sorry you are going through this Relieved. You've been given really good advice. It's all dysfunction, and it's all them. My experience is more with the death hoover, but from where I'm sitting it looks like two sides of the same coin, and it's a toss-up which part of the cycle of abuse they land on at any given time.

Thanks again, Peanut Butter! You're correct about everything.

"After choosing to NOT make amends with you M darvo'd and smeared you to extended family. She acted as if she and F are the ones who have been wronged. F is now continuing that since she has passed by claiming you dont call him?"
—-Yup, I know I will get all the blame. I would be asking to be punished if I call him.

I don't know why I keep going over past conversations and scenarios with my parents in my head. I know I said a couple of hurtful things although this was mostly after I experienced their wrath. I will say that I did not say even close to the nasty things my mother, father and sister have said to me.
My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are." 

I did not respond to that. I only asked her if she's finished.

But I'm still trying to figure out why she and my father did this. Like what was her goal?! She was dying... how can someone take this to the grave? And how can they force and make my relatives promise not to say anything?

I haven't spoken to my parents in 3 years. I didn't say anything remotely harsh the last time I saw them. We actually drove to their home which was 2 hours away before we moved across the country. We did this because we felt it was the right thing to do. Did they call to see how the move went, nope. Did they call to see how my children have settled into their new schools? Nope. And a couple relatives told me how much she loved my children.
My father emailed weeks later and only said "it's been too long". I emailed back telling them what's going on in our lives and no response. They sent one more email about something else weeks later. I responded and yet again, no reply back.

What did they want from me?!

I know 3 years is a long time but is it really that long? I guess it felt like it flew by.

Why would they do this? I know I will get over this eventually. It's still new. I do feel better because I have been getting great support from my close friends, and of course from my husband.

Do I call my aunts, uncles and cousins on my dad's side. Is it odd that not one of them has sent a text, card or anything?
One relative told me my uncle recently had surgery... do I call him?

Thanks again for your advice.

Yes, Fuzzydog... this site is great. I'm glad you are well-prepared with your FOO. I truly hope it works out for you. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

Thanks, Call Me. It is all so confusing and cruel.

[

Quote from: Relieved333 on August 04, 2020, 07:19:43 PM
1/ I don't know why I keep going over past conversations and scenarios with my parents in my head. I know I said a couple of hurtful things although this was mostly after I experienced their wrath. I will say that I did not say even close to the nasty things my mother, father and sister have said to me.

2/ My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are." 
I did not respond to that. I only asked her if she's finished.

3/ But I'm still trying to figure out why she and my father did this. Like what was her goal?! She was dying... how can someone take this to the grave? And how can they force and make my relatives promise not to say anything?
I haven't spoken to my parents in 3 years. I didn't say anything remotely harsh the last time I saw them. We actually drove to their home which was 2 hours away before we moved across the country. We did this because we felt it was the right thing to do. Did they call to see how the move went, nope. Did they call to see how my children have settled into their new schools? Nope. And a couple relatives told me how much she loved my children.
My father emailed weeks later and only said "it's been too long". I emailed back telling them what's going on in our lives and no response. They sent one more email about something else weeks later. I responded and yet again, no reply back.
What did they want from me?! .

4/ I know 3 years is a long time but is it really that long? I guess it felt like it flew by.
Why would they do this? I know I will get over this eventually. It's still new. I do feel better because I have been getting great support from my close friends, and of course from my husband.
Do I call my aunts, uncles and cousins on my dad's side. Is it odd that not one of them has sent a text, card or anything?
One relative told me my uncle recently had surgery... do I call him?

Forgive me for putting more than just my 2 cents in. Disregard anything I say that is not relevant.
But I wanted to answer your additional question. My heart has such compassion for you! The things I say are the things that I wish someone would have told me.

1/You go over it in your head because you care. You care if you made mistakes. You care about your foo's pain.

2/ Your M was projecting. She was describing herself to you. She didn know that. She said "listen to yourself" but she was the one talking! Can you see it if you read the bolded? Also she was trying to bait you into a reaction that would prove what she felt since the day you were born was justified. Your M admitted that the hate was all coming from her in that rant!

3/ They wanted you to get back in your role. They wanted you to take the blame for all the disfunction so they could be absolved. The only goal of PD persons of this type is to protect the false self.

4/ This is best if you only allow loving people to surround you. That is healthy! Calling people because you feel obligated by blood ties only but have no recipricol relationship with is ime what continues the enabling of pwPD to have endless supply in their FOO /extended Family.

Maybe if you can sit with the emotions instead of act on any that would be best.
There is nothing you need to do! You can just be. Live and let live. Take care of yourself. Post here constantly if you need to. Dont act on impulses to 'perform' what you think you are 'supposed' to do in the minds of some enmeshed/abusive persons!

With LOVE
PB

I thought about you some more while I was at work.
Specifically this right here:

QuoteThere were times when I thought they were jealous but not of the relationship between my children and me. But looking back, maybe they were.
My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are."

She said: "From the day you were born she thought you was the worst daughter" You were AN INFANT!  Having just been born from her body, they would have laid you on her chest? She would have looked at you all helpless and innoccent? and then at some point that very day she thought  "you was the worst daughter"!?!? HOW? WHY?

The reason I point this out is because this is not uncommon with estranged parents, abusive parents, mentally ill neglective parents. IMO I have heard a version of this same story many, many, many times. It goes like this: that the parent is loving, sacrificial, and mentally healthy and the child (now an adult) is ungrateful, spiteful, and disordered. The story continues that the parent KNEW something was wrong from the very beginning, at birth, in the hospital, or very early when brought home or when sibling was born, and so forth. The child described as: was hard to handle, cried all the time, was extra sensitive, was demanding, raged at the parent, and just always caused the parent trouble its whole life starting as an infant?!?! :aaauuugh:

Not only is this retoric a massive red flag it also contains truth leaks ime.

The expertise (literature, articles, manuals, websites for treatment,etc.) describes the same as indications of a problem with the mother not attaching normally to her infant. This can be from the mother's mental illness, post partem depression, personality disorder, drug addiction, and etc.
The expertise also describes the 'pattern of the projection process' of a parent that scapegoats a child which matches this rehtoric also.

So if your M could not attach normally to you when you were born because of personality disorder; instead of awareness of her inner state, (her emotions/thoughts/innervoice) she misinterpreted your cries, (crying is the only way the infant can get their needs met) projected her denied anger, disappointment, fears etc. onto you, and then she may very well have been jealous of your healthy attachment to your children when she witnessed it because it held a 'mirror of clarity' up to her. imo.

This this this!!! I too was difficult from my infancy according to my mother. When I was being hovered/love bombed, it was supposedly a sign of intelligence. Otherwise it was just a bludgeon that something has always been wrong with me and my mother is a saint to have put up with me and the sole source of problems is ME not my abusive parents.

Also the description of my colic got more and more dramatic the more friction there was in the moment. And you can't argue it, because you don't remember! And yet, I'm the one who doesn't know how to "let things go"!!!  :stars:

Quote from: PeanutButter on August 05, 2020, 12:57:52 AM
[

Quote from: Relieved333 on August 04, 2020, 07:19:43 PM
1/ I don't know why I keep going over past conversations and scenarios with my parents in my head. I know I said a couple of hurtful things although this was mostly after I experienced their wrath. I will say that I did not say even close to the nasty things my mother, father and sister have said to me.

2/ My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are." 
I did not respond to that. I only asked her if she's finished.

]

1.  I agree with PB, it's because you care.  I do the same thing and it's why I'm getting therapy.  To try to stop the ruminating.  Confessing my not-so-nice transgressions to my therapist has been helpful.  None of us is perfect.  Ironic, though, isn't it, that we're the one going to therapist.... :stars:

2.  One of the best things I've learned about BPD's and probably also covertN's is this:   They make the crime fit the punishment.
Let that sink in if you will.
They make the CRIME fit the PUNISHMENT.

Their first "response" (reaction, really) is always EMOTION.   It's a reflex.  No thinking, just emotion.
Then, they on some level realize they have reacted very emotionally/punishing  to something you have said or done. 
Many of them will experience a level of cognitive dissonance......their reaction was huge, the offense was small.

A healthy person would resolve this dissonance by apologizing for their outsized reaction.  Then the 'punishment' would fit the 'offense'..
But PD's can't apologize due to their fragile self-image.
So in order to resolve the cognitive dissonance, they inflate your "crime" to fit their already-delivered "punishment".

Once my sister has raged at me, she will start flinging the kitchen sink at me in terms of  my "offenses".  Stuff from 40 years ago even.   Stuff I don't remember.
Stuff seemingly unrelated to the current situation.
I do think she is trying to make "sense" of her own reaction, twisted as that all is.  If she can make Kat bad and deserving of a rage, well then she can't be seen as bad for having a rage.

It has helped me to understand that and depersonalize it.   I have on one occasion even been able to be amused by her resourcefulness in finding old sh@$ to fling at me, sort of like a monkey would fling poop.

Once I realized this, though, I think I lost hope of ever having the warm relationship with my sister that I thought I had.   Her rages, which I had formerly seen as sort of a "quirk" if you will, now appear to me to be the death knell of our relationship.    It made me realize that unless she gets serious therapy she will always have rages.   When she has rages she needs to find someone to be wrong/evil.   That evil person will never be her.    Because it won't be her, it will be me.   So I will always be raged at and blamed.   
So I am being asked to choose myself and truth, or choose her and lies.     I choose me.   But since she's set it up so I can't have both, I will lose her.
:(

Just me 2 cents.  Hope it might help.

Quote from: Kat1984 on August 05, 2020, 08:58:26 AM
[Their first "response" (reaction, really) is always EMOTION.   It's a reflex.  No thinking, just emotion.
Then, they on some level realize they have reacted very emotionally/punishing  to something you have said or done.
Many of them will experience a level of cognitive dissonance...

YES! YES! Thanks kat1984.

Relieved333, this further explains what the mentally unwell mother may experiences when she sees her infant or hears her infant cry. She 'feels' no love, she feels disappointed, frustrated, angry, and 'justified' so she creates a 'crime' (the child is: 'off' 'not right' 'different') to fit the 'punishment' (mother has: no attachment, no love) she is giving her baby.

The baby can 'feel' the mothers agitation so any 'soothing' efforts done are superficial and have the underlying negativity simmering just below the surface. Babies are naturally intuitive to their mother. So baby 'catches' mother's resentment and may sometimes cry harder!
Eventually the child (when older) may even 'mirror' back to the mother that negativity. The mother is in denial that she has any 'negative' emotions so she sees the childs mirroring as evidence that the child is 'bad'. Which reinforces her belief that the 'crime' happened before the 'punishment' and the 'punishment' happened because of the 'crime.' Nothing is her fault!

You are a good enough daughter and sister! You deserved to be protected! You literally had NOONE in your FOO or extended FAM stand up for you. Years of triangulation, smearing, and all manner of planning and manipulating to ensure that everyone would stand together against you for M drove that .

The FOO and extended family have shown you who they are! No matter what you did or didnt do, imo and ime they only wanted your submission to M's narrative.

Quote from: PeanutButter on August 05, 2020, 11:10:06 AM

Quote from: Kat1984 on August 05, 2020, 08:58:26 AM
[Their first "response" (reaction, really) is always EMOTION.   It's a reflex.  No thinking, just emotion.
Then, they on some level realize they have reacted very emotionally/punishing  to something you have said or done.
Many of them will experience a level of cognitive dissonance...

YES! YES! Thanks kat1984.

Relieved333, this further explains what the mentally unwell mother may experiences when she sees her infant or hears her infant cry. She 'feels' no love, she feels disappointed, frustrated, angry, and 'justified' so she creates a 'crime' (the child is: 'off' 'not right' 'different') to fit the 'punishment' (mother has: no attachment, no love) she is giving her baby.

The baby can 'feel' the mothers agitation so any 'soothing' efforts done are superficial and have the underlying negativity simmering just below the surface. Babies are naturally intuitive to their mother. So baby 'catches' mother's resentment and may sometimes cry harder!
Eventually the child (when older) may even 'mirror' back to the mother that negativity. The mother is in denial that she has any 'negative' emotions so she sees the childs mirroring as evidence that the child is 'bad'. Which reinforces her belief that the 'crime' happened before the 'punishment' and the 'punishment' happened because of the 'crime.' Nothing is her fault!

My god. This just hit home in a big way.  Like I'm in tears.

My uNPDm, when she gets called out on bad stuff she says/does such as telling me how horrible I looked at my sons wedding, goes on to say "but, but I love all my...." and then literally trails off.  This has happened more than once.  Not an isolated incident and not isolated to just me.  She obviously resents having had girls, and me most specifically because she "thought she was going to have a life after Bro6"  so being a girl in the family is the crime.  The fact that I was even born AND a girl...well, it makes sense.  I'm the worst perp of all.  Still upsetting and kind of hard not to take personally, but makes sense.

You know, because if you actually did love all your kids, you wouldn't say nasty shit about them to their face, let alone behind their backs.

Im incredibly sorry. I should have put a trigger warning.
Im deeply sympathetic.
I experienced this.
When I learned of 'lack of attachment' and the 'projection process' I finally understood why ubpdM despised me.
Thats why I shared it.
Love and hugs to ALL

Peanut Butter... again, thank you! Amazing information and help.

"Your M was projecting. She was describing herself to you."
--- Yes, she did this a lot. She would tell me "Talking to you is like walking on eggshells"! Although, I was the one who needed to be extra cautious.

"They wanted you to get back in your role. They wanted you to take the blame for all the dysfunction so they could be absolved. The only goal of PD persons of this type is to protect the false self."
--- Correct. Every time I stuck up for myself or pointed out the hurt they caused me, they twisted it back onto me. I was wrong to respond and hold them accountable.

"This is best if you only allow loving people to surround you. That is healthy! Calling people because you feel obligated by blood ties..."
--- I have been in touch with my extended relatives on both sides over the years. I'm shocked no one has contacted me on my father's side. It feels awful. I do still feel that "pull" to call them. 

"She said: "From the day you were born she thought you was the worst daughter" You were AN INFANT! "you was the worst daughter"!?!? HOW? WHY? This can be from the mother's mental illness, post-pardem depression, personality disorder..." 
--- Exactly. I think you might be onto something. Maybe she did have postpartum depression? I know she had to have a PD. Maybe she thought I was a difficult baby? She was abused by my father both emotionally and physically(at times). My father did this to me as well. It was a horrible house to grow-up in. There were good times, more so when the entire family got together, which makes things confusing. But I know my mom was insecure, fragile, scared, angry and possibly even hated herself. I don't know. I did put all this into account when trying to talk to her.

"You are a good enough daughter and sister! You deserved to be protected! You literally had NOONE in your FOO or extended FAM stand up for you. Years of triangulation, smearing, and all manner of planning and manipulating to ensure that everyone would stand together against you for M drove that."
--- Thank you! I can not believe how much control my mother, father and sister have. And the funny thing is, almost everyone knows how cold, difficult and cruel my father is. My sister is the golden child who is vicious, incredibly selfish and can do no wrong. Why did they favor her so much? Were they scared of her? They saw themselves in her and vice-versa?
My mother's brother recently told me that over the years he noticed my mother morphing into my father and sister. He said my father isn't a "family man".  My grandmother said she never liked my father. With knowing all of this... they STILL allowed them to have such power.

My sister and father were livid that I found out my mother died. My sister messaged every single family member asking who told me. When she found out, she yelled at this person saying this was my mother's "dying wish". My mother's side of family haven't spoken to them since. They all live close to each other so not sure how long it will last.

This wasn't a "dying wish". This was an act of cruelty and violence. No one can be this hateful. And what is my crime... moving farther away? Not responding to an email? Living my life how I see fit? My parents have my number. If they really wanted to make amends or show that they cared, they could have called, admitted they said/done hurtful things and asked how could they make things better. I know, wishful thinking.  Instead, they put ALL of the responsibility on me because in their minds they don't do anything wrong. They're the parents. I'm suppose to "Honor thy father and mother"(which my father always told me). I need to ask for forgiveness. I HAVE to forgive and move on even though they never admitted any fault. They would berate me over the phone and/or via email but I had to take it because it was for my own good. Did they ever acknowledge how harsh and awful that was? Of course not. But I pushed it under the rug and carried on with their normal. My feelings didn't matter. All this to keep the peace.

You know why my mother took her anger to the grave? It was because she would never see "her grandchildren" again. I asked a relative if she ever mentioned me... she said no. I was in the way. I was invisible. She wanted to push me aside and only have a relationship with my children. However, my parents had many opportunities to visit us when we lived closer. But they usually had an excuse. They came for a couple birthday parties, maybe a holiday or two and my mom did help for the first few weeks when our babies were born. She would drive to our house once a week and stay overnight. But she did say one time that I used her... there was always a price. My mother bought my children so much junk. She bought them 20 gifts each one Xmas. Gave them junk food. Undermined me in my own home because she was the "fun grandma". I'm sure she loved them but at the same time it felt like my children were props to her. She gave them so many toys, candy, snacks, etc to fulfill her needs. She loved their reactions.

I recently found out that I am out of my parents Will. No surprise really. My father said "She's not going to get one dime". I don't care about the money.

Kat1984, you're right..."One of the best things I've learned about BPD's and probably also covertN's is this:  They make the crime fit the punishment. Let that sink in if you will.
They make the CRIME fit the PUNISHMENT."
---What have I done to deserve such punishment? Nothing I did or said warrants this kind of cruelty and abuse. They created their own version of the truth to justify their punishment.

"A healthy person would resolve this dissonance by apologizing for their outsized reaction.  Then the 'punishment' would fit the 'offense'..
But PD's can't apologize due to their fragile self-image. So in order to resolve the cognitive dissonance, they inflate your "crime" to fit their already-delivered "punishment".
---THIS

"Once my sister has raged at me, she will start flinging the kitchen sink at me in terms of  my "offenses".  Stuff from 40 years ago even.   Stuff I don't remember.
Stuff seemingly unrelated to the current situation. I do think she is trying to make "sense" of her own reaction, twisted as that all is."
--- AND THIS. My god, every argument that I had with them they would bring-up things I said/did as a child, teenager and onwards.

With all that has happened, it still seems my family does allow them to be in control after all this. A relative asked if I called my father yet. What on earth am I suppose to say to this man??

Thank you all again for your advice and support. Much Love. :)

Relieved333   :hug:
As we (Out of the FOG community) are sitting in our homes, at work, etc. connecting with each other through our wonderful devices (because other wise we wouldnt ever know each other) I want you to hear all our voices ( it will be your voice actually) saying this:
:heythere:
" Relieved333, I (peanut butter) have witnessed the abuse you suffered and continue to suffer. I witness the totally unjustified mistreatment, sadistic words and actions, and your continued refusal to give back anything even remotely retaliatory towards your attackers!
This speaks everything to who you are (good, loving, healthy, and whole) and evidences the vile nature of those you are dealing with (disordered to the highest malignancy).
I witness and validate the excruciating pain of your loss, deep loss, on multiple; physical, emotional, spiritual levels!
I see that YOU HAVE BROKEN THE CYCLE! You will not pass on to your children what you inherited from your parents."

Im so glad I'm here. Im so glad you are here. Because we deserve to be valued.

Thank you, Peanut Butter!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

A relative emailed for the first time in 3 months. Very brief asking how things are... no mention of my mother's death.

How do I respond?! I have to address the big elephant in the room, right?! This is so bizarre and just insane.  :stars:

You dont need to respond imo.
Do you know if this is a relative that would know about your moms death?
If you know for sure they know it seems deceptive that they asked how you are without sending condolances imo.
I would also consider reviewing my memory for what type of interactions have been the norm for this relative. 'What kind of 'role' does she play inside the family?'
Think about it for as long as you need if you cant decide right now its ok to do nothing. In your circumstances this relative should certianly understand if you were not up to chit chatting with them if they dont that is a red flag too.
'What does it feel like the message is offering?'
If it is just a message 'seeking' information I dont find that appropriate ime.
If you respond give only info that they can not use against you or use for gossip.

Thanks again, PB.

This relative is actually the closest to my parents. I haven't talked to him in a few months. I sent a gift basket because his wife is ill. He then emailed to thank me and told me how she's doing. However, no mention of my mother which felt so eerily bizarre. ...the big fat elephant in the room.

I did email back saying how much I loved them and hope for a speedy recovery. I also said I'm sure you know that I found out about mother's death, that I was saddened by it and sad that she went to great lengths to keep it a secret, that I know she's in a better place.

It felt so so weird not to say anything. Throughout my entire life I pushed my hurt feelings under the rug, what my parents said and did to me, their verbal attacks, rage, criticisms with zero remorse ever from them... all to keep the peace within the family.

You're right though, they might use whatever I said against me, gossiping, etc. I can not win no matter what I do. Hopefully they won't respond with any blaming and shaming. They only heard my parent's side of the story and we all know how that goes.

I still can't believe they have gone to this extremity. There is no justification for it. Nothing I did or said warrants this level of hate and abuse.  And they still don't see it as such. It's impossible.

Thanks again for your help! 🙏🏻

I think that was great response. I wouldnt have known of a way to reply without mentioning it either. IME That was a healthy and authentic communication.
I cant see how it could be used against you hopefully they were sincerely curious about whether you knew and if you were ok.