Children missing their grandparents

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi. My daughter (7) is weeping right now because she misses grandma and grandpa. I and they are NC, and really they have not been a big part of their lives. DH is LC, but still foggy. I think I'm handling it ok with her, validating her feelings and keeping things age appropriate, but at the same time it feels really crappy saying, "I really can't say when we'll see them," when she asks, because I suspect the true answer is NEVER.

Unless... unless we revisit boundaries which I know DH does not want NC for the kids. I feel myself wavering but I feel like it's FOG. I can see why my kids enjoyed visiting them. And I do feel responsible for taking away the good times. Maybe I could have tried harder to make it work for the kids' sake. Tried boundaries other than NC.

But on the other hand, give a PD an inch and they take a mile! I feel like it's going to be a big mistake as far as protecting myself goes.

For some more fun, I got triangulated by my daughter just now. DH just asked her why she's said and she said, "Mommy will tell you. I don't want my brothers to listen." Crap. I'm sure he'll ask after the little ones are in bed. So some quick advice would be very appreciated.

[11JB68]

I don't know your full story and couldn't tell you what to do even if i did..
Have you had age appropriate discussions with your kids about what's going on? My personal feeling is that often we try to protect our kids from the truth when really we should be More honest and open with them. You validated her feelings which is great! I did have to give my ds some context around mom and gram are not seeing eye to eye on some things...mom and dad are concerned about how gram is behaving with us and with you, etc. Also I thick we tried pretty hard to create new traditions and to provide some extra fun and attention when we went nc...
Maybe try to figure out what your kids miss about their grandparents...yes they love them...but if there are some simple this you can duplicate or replace (like did gram always bake cookies with ds, did gramps watch movies and eat popcorn with them,etc)...sometimes with kids it's the basic 'stuff'/routines that they miss...
If Sunday afternoons meant visiting the grandparents could you replace that with another maybe better activity (a family hike or something)

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hey, thanks for your reply. That's a very good point about giving some age-appropriate context. I did do that with my kids when I went NC with my own parents. That went well overall. They were upset but ultimately accepting and they expressed empathy for *me* that my parents had been unkind to me and wouldn't stop. But I worry about it being worse with the other grandparents, because we've been down this road before. (Now NC with both of our parents AND the children's three living great-grandparents.) I worry about destroying their trust by telling them we're not seeing just about every family member. They're kids and they don't see all the bad stuff I do. And I don't want them to, hence the NC. Will they get anxious that everybody is untrustworthy? I've been holding back information in an effort to protect them from further pain.

And I didn't intend this NC to be a forever thing... but set a boundary that is in force until pwPDs take some personal responsibility and you just might be waiting forever. I guess I'm just not sure what is best for the kids here, having very limited contact or none. And then there's the question of whether DH can really be trusted to provide the supervision... I know I'm not up to it!

Maybe that's my answer. Too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids. Right now the ILs have NO access whatsoever to the kids. They've been told why. And have done nothing to rectify the situation except DARVO and guilt trip my husband.

[daughter]

I'm a firm believer in "too toxic for me, too toxic for our kids too".  Does your NC extend to DH too?  Does your NC extend to absolutely zero contact, or would you tolerate a restaurant meal at a casual kid-friendly restaurant, where you would be in attendance, polite but there strictly to monitor interactions and redirect inappropriate statements/behaviors directed at kids.  The sort of "stiff upper lip" Grey Rock occasion?

In regards to your daughter, at age 7, is she truly "missing grandparents", the actual grandparents as they present themselves to her in your presence, or the notion of "grandparents", because perhaps a friend of hers, our a storybook example, identifies grandparents as "wonderful people in children's lives"?  I say this because kids at this age often idealize a situation based upon how they think it should be, whether from media, school, friends, or actual life-example, but not necessarily from their own personal experience.  You may be able to put this momentary "momma I wanna" demand of your daughter's by deflecting it, by saying "okay, we'll think about doing that, let's talk about it next week", a sort of postponement-curtailing of discussion and dissent without saying direct "no".,

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you, daughter. We are at absolutely zero contact. DH doesn't even discuss the children with his parents.

I think she has been missing the fun times she had when visiting them or when we had them here. It was always a show to be the most fun grandparent, I see now. And like an idiot I encouraged all those "special times." Some are unique to the places they live, so cannot easily be duplicated. Others are just plain old spoiling, which I wouldn't do on principle.

It's not the first time this has come up. Usually I can say, "Yes, you really had fun doing that. Go again? I don't think so, we have x planned this time." But that didn't work this time. This time she was asking just for uNMIL, uAFIL, and uNgreat-grandpa. She's aware it's been a super long time since they've talked to any of them and that great-grandma has been sickly. Great-grandma has been "not long for this world" as long as I've known her, according to uNMIL's wishful thinking. But she did start having dementia not long before we went NC. She was the nicest one lol. Still had issues, but the nicest.

[all4peace]

I believe in trying to fill a vacuum with something good and healthy. When we're VLC or NC with family members, there is a void there. It hurts us if it hurts our children, but we also have worked hard to find a safe space and going back to the "way things used to be" isn't an option.

In my life, I've tried really hard to fill that space with other good and loving relationships. I recently heard my teen DD talking about the important of family, was a little shocked considering our circumstances, and asked her to elaborate. In her worldview, family is anyone who is good, trustworthy, loving and kind and she clearly articulated her belief in family being the people you are closest to (related or otherwise).

I also believe it is very important to acknowledge and validate our kids' feelings. Something like "Honey, I know you miss gma and gpa. I'm sorry for how that hurts. Do you want to talk about it?" and even "It's ok for you to talk about gma and gpa. I know we don't see them anymore, but please know you can share memories about them if you want to." and even "I wish that it could be different for you with grandparents. Gma and gpa haven't found a way to be safe for our family, and that causes all of us sadness, and I wish it were different."

I can't remember if you've shared this or not, but have you had a conversation with your kids in age-appropriate terms about why you're NC with the ILs?

[Call Me Cordelia]

I have had that conversation with the older kids (6 & 8 at the time) regarding NC with my parents, but not regarding NC with my in-laws. Or my siblings and BIL. Or all their great-grandparents.

It's hard because DH is not on the same page regarding those NCs. And because I'm afraid of destroying their trust in humanity, like I've said before. Because of the sheer number of unsafe people. For the most part the children have barely noticed. All those people have been ridiculously ignoring and forget our kids exist except for the rare times when they decided they'd like to play grandma/grandpa/whoever. Usually around holidays.

We've done really well creating our own family culture, enjoying being together, they aren't suffering for lack of good people and experiences. But every once in a while I'm reminded painfully that there is still some level of attachment there.

I like all of the things you say as possibilities to validate their feelings. They are completely unaware of the abuse so their attachment doesn't hurt me in the same way as my DH's. I can stand to hear a story about a fun visit, but even that can be triggering to me. Usually because that same visit gave me something to process in EMDR.

[Starboard Song]

I believe that if someone is so toxic that I must be NC with them, they are unfit for correspondence with my son. As a therapist told me: "the separation of families into loved and un-loved parts is something that loving families simply do not do, and which responsible parents never allow."

So you have some decisioning first, about you and your husband's contact levels. After that, I consider the contact level of your children to be a forced move: they should have no more contact -- I think -- than whichever parent has the most contact.

I'd then separate two questions: understanding the impact on your children, and planning how to communicate with them.

Impact
A kind and loving grandparent is a treasure. A grandparent who is not reliably kind and loving, a grandparent who cannot manage to maintain even a reliable veneer of civility with parents is not a treasure, and ought not be confused for one.

This very day, young children around the world will lose their grandparents to death. There will be no correlation -- none at all -- between this loss and their long-term happiness. Not even for those losing the greatest of grandparent mentors.

So let's get real: your kids will be very sad because something very sad has happened. Not because you or DH have "done something." You are -- it sounds to me -- taking solid, responsible actions as the adult in the room. If you and DH determine that neither of you can maintain greater than VLC, then the kids are VLC. If you both go NC, the kids are NC. As adults, we often have to disappoint our kids.

Communications
I never forget advice received from a pediatrician when my son was 3 and his grandmother was dying. He said I needed to directly address the fact that not only was she sick, but we knew she would die soon. He said parents often wait. At best, this reduces a young child's confidence in you. At worst, they think you lied.

My son was 11 when we went NC. I could give details, but I think you'll find tons of resources if you look up divorce. Everyone makes sure the kid knows this isn't about them. I don't like quoting what we said online, but we made it clear that we hoped there would be healing one day, but did not expect it. We specifically disavowed any sense of demonizing his grandparents: made it clear that there were emotional control issues beyond MIL's control, and that this is a very big challenge.

Is he sad now, almost 4 years later? Yeah. Like literally millions of kids who lost grandparents to death. I have no doubt that my in-laws were too toxic to earn the right to correspondence with my family.

I am defending myself to myself, aren't I? That's how hard this is. But if you stay super close with DH, you can select the right course of action for yourselves, and communicate with your children in a clear and loving way.

Good luck.