Out of the FOG

The further Out of the FOG I get, the more I can see her absolute craziness. I can predict her cycles almost down to detail, it's scary. I know what kind of stunts she is going to do before she even starts. Anyway, this time she has lost it completely, she does not do my MC very well. I sat back and watched her absolutely lose it with the kids, screaming, silent treat them, gaslight them, you name it..... all recorded.....  8-)  When she went physical and was starting to attack one of the children I had to step in to stop it, she then took the car keys and she has been gone since. I am due to go away tomorrow to see my parents I haven't seen since the pandemic, I knew she was going to do something like this to either try to put me in a mood or even stop the trip. If she stops it by not coming home before I will change the locks and she can stay away, if I get to go I will start the divorce process from there. My worry is what stunts she will put the kids through when I am away, but I honestly think physically they can handle her. If I stay here and cancel the trip with her in the house there will just be another cycle, and another one. Short term pain for everyone, buit long term gain.

I am so disgusted with her behaviour, but I am also so very proud of myself to have stayed calm through her entire sh*tshow.

It's just passed 3am here so I'll be straight to the point.

It may not be legal for you to change the locks.

Can you and the children leave while she's gone?  What you describe doesn't sound safe for any of you.

We support you, whatever you decide.  Keep is posted when you're able.

AOD

She is back now, back chatting me to the child she just a few hours ago battered emotionally. Now they are both turning on me and the other child.

My plan is pretty clearance, I leave tomorrow on my planned trip and then start the process next week when in a different country.

Good for you, escapingman!

I'm sure it has been a long a difficult path of trying and failing to improve the situation.

So great to see you doing what is best for your kids and yourself.

So after her screaming, back chatting and attempts tp put me down she offered me a lift to the airport. Ignored her offer and ordered an Uber, felt really good. She has lost whatever powers she had over me, I am just done with it.

I started listning to the book Stop caretaking the bpd/npd, already through 7 chapters but boy do I recognise almost every thing. The book is giving me even more insigth, more on me than her which is great.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Do the best thing for you and the kids.

Best of luck.

That's great forward progress!  :thumbup:

Once you set limits and stop feeding the drama, you can expect her to ratchet up all her tactics, both the over-the-top freak outs as well as the hoovering and love-bombing.

Hang tough. Stay the course!

I am back in my home country for the first time since rhe pandemic, got very emotional on the flight and almost started crying. If it wasn't for the kids I would put the return leg in the bin and never return.

Since I rejected the lift she hasn't contacted me, that was pretty expected and I enjoy the no contact from her. I have learnt she can't change and ut is very sad to see how she literally throw our life's and family away. I mean, how can she possible not see? But that's the trick, I now know she can't see it. And I can't accept it anymore so I have to do this. Its5not about her anymore, I feel sorry for her but I have to let go. I have to let go of the guilt that I can't save her.

Now I am off to meet a friend, I need some normal socialising.

No, you cannot save her.

But you can save yourself, and the children.

I have almost listen  to the entire book "stop caretaking..." now and it's very enlightening.  I had already started doing lots suggested without even knowing, but there are still lots to do. I have been away for almost a week know and she has tried a classic emotional stunt to drag me back, but I am not falling for it. I realised I have hardly given her any thoughts other than that she is back at home, no emotions other than a few spikes I have managed to control.

I have also realised that as I have moved away from the caretaking role, she has made GC her new caretaker. This is my challenge and this us the emotions I struggle with.

Just wanted to check in and say I am doing OK, but I am emotionally exhausted.

You're very insightful. Keep up the good work.

I'm not sure about filing a divorce outside the country.  I assume an attorney in your country will file existing paperwork for you and your stbx will be served with it while you're visiting your parents.

Stay strong.  I hope the sg stays strong too.

I am back home, a bit rested from a week away and a bit further Out of the FOG. After finishing listening to "Stop caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist" I started to listen to "Out of the FOG: Moving from confusion to clarity after narcissistic abuse" by Dana Morningstar. Wow what a book, it's so well written and so much is spot on. I think I am moving away from having the focus on her and instead have it on me.

I don't really have a short term plan for divorce. But. The more I can see, the less I am affected by her drama. Right now I feel strong, hope I can stay strong when her next drama unfolds. Long term I am getting out, I am sick of being a caretaker of a mentally ill person.

Document.
Everything.

It's amazing how much repair one week does, and also amazing how absolutely pure stupid the PD's can be. Had presents and all sorts with me back from my week, thought I buy some for her, not because of guilt or bribe or anything, just because it was some small things I know she likes. Told her some stories about my week away, behaved pretty normal. Didn't let my guard down and did not tell her the stories that had more facts in them and that I knew she would use against me later. This morning, after getting her little fix of narc supply yesterday, yes you guessed it right. She flew off the handle. Why? Because the coach had organised a match on saturday that she didn't expect, she hates the kids doing sport, they should spend the entire weekends with her and do whatever she tells them to do. Anyway, it escalated and she ended up in a squabble with GC, they started to argue about if they should leave the house at 5 or 10 past 8. They both started to shout and swear at each other. uNPDW started it all as she was already in a bad mood because of the football, but I just sat with my head in my hands listening to this as uNPDw was fighting as it was about life and death, and she behaved like a 2 year old. Then in the end she kicks off with me for not backing her.

She has seen some seminars from school where school has talked about issues and how to handle teens. Needless to say, this advice does not count for families with a PD. But she has told me in depth that all problems are caused by us not being united against he kids. Told her I agree with having a united stand but that does not say we are going to do it 100% her way.... guess what, she kicked off about that. I kept my cool and off she went swearing at me all the way out to the car where I could still hear her shouting about me.  On a side note to this, kids are begging me to keep my voice down when I am reprimanding them or just giving some advice, they do anything to stay out of her firing line. Yesterday, me and GC had a minor argument about something. uNPDw hears it and shouts to us what is going on, this is normally something that kicks everything off, but GC just shouted back nothing is going on. I was proud of her.

Anyway, my short term plan probably changed as I just can't live like this. Funny (not really), but I remember the days when she used the silent treatment heavily and I kept begging her to talk to me. Now when I don't engage she keeps coming back and pushing and pushing for me to engage.

 

Hi escapingman.

I have been following your troubles for some time now, and I may have even posted to you a couple of times, and I have to say I don't envy what you're going through.
It's clearly been a distressing time for you.

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way.

I almost posted yesterday when you posted about getting back from your trip, saying that you didn't have a short-term plan for divorce, even though you did have when you left for your trip.

Throughout the time of following your story, you oscillate between putting off thinking of a divorce when things are good (or at least not a nightmare), and stressing that you've had enough and it's time to go, when she kicks off again.
If you look back through your posts in this thread, and your others, you will see this pattern.
I'm not having a go. I think this is probably normal behaviour.
A divorce would mean great upheaval, and you have your kids' health to think about.
Not getting a divorce would mean having to let yourself get damaged further, and your kids too.

I am not advising you on whether you should get divorced or not.
That's not for me to say.
There are many other people here who have better advice on that subject than me.

I guess the only reason I'm posting this is to say that you need to take some time to seriously consider what you want to do, and when you make the decision, stick with it.
Your current oscillation between the two states of mind don't seem to be getting you anywhere.

But if you decide once and for all to get divorced, the short-term plan could be to get everything in place over the next few months, regardless of whether your PD wife senses it and manipulates you into thinking everything is fine (PDs are very good at that, but as soon as you're hooked again, they will revert to factory default settings).

If you decide you don't want to get a divorce, then the short-term plan should be to make sure that you are getting enough therapy to help you, and enough therapy for your kids so that they don't end up with a disorder of their own as adults.

But, as I said, the oscillation between wanting to leave and wanting to stay seems to be taking away any agency you have, and the status quo remains the same.
The only person who wins when nothing changes is your PD wife, because everything is already exactly as she wants it to be.
And I think it's perfectly normal for you to flip back and forth as you are depending on how things are.
We've all sworn never to eat Candy again or to floss twice as much because we are suffering from toothache.
But as soon as that toothache has gone, we forget just how painful it was, and here comes the Candy again!

Again, please take what I'm saying in the right way.
I've read your story for a long time now, and I really sympathise with what you and your kids are going through.
And I wouldn't presume to tell you which way you should choose.

I just wanted to make you aware that your wheels are spinning, and that you're stuck in the mud.
Maybe that's where you want to be.

I wish you luck mate, I really do.
Take care.

A saying comes to mind here....

When the pain of staying out weighs the pain of leaving.....we leave.

Hi Simon, thank you for your reply.

I get what you are writing, but you are not completely correct. But before replying, I am not offended and I am not taking it the wrong way. Jeez I have been married to someone offending me daily for 15+ years....

My goal is clear, I am out, there is no future, I can't stand her, I feel ill when I look at her. However, I need to get this right and as long as I can manage with GR and MC and the rest of the toolbox there is no need to rush and get it wrong. There is one big question in all this that could help making this easier, that if I can wait that long, is that they will introduce no fault divorce here soon (however they have kept pushing this further and further into the future so not sure I can wait much longer). If I file for a no fault divorce there is nothing she can say or do to stop it, and I don't need to blame her which might make it slightly less toxic. But, I am not sure I can wait much longer. Today for example she has oscillated between painting me black and white several times (being white is actually making me feel worse than being painted black).

Listening to the book I mentioned in my earlier post, she is using every tactic to make this drama keep going. She talks about having another baby, moving house, moving country, extending the house, redecorating a room, buying a pet, booking next holiday, and so on and on. I have to deflect all of this as and it is taking a toll on me, but it has to be done.

Oh, and whilst writing this she is shouting in the kitchen and being nasty to SG. I can either stay out of it and let it calm down, or interfere and get another world war as GC quickly will join in and then it will be me against them all.

A saying comes to mind here....

When the pain of staying out weighs the pain of leaving.....we leave.


I think I just about passed that now so don't think it will be long, just don't want to leave based on emotions only.

Glad you weren't offended by it.
That wasn't my intention.
We can all see how difficult it is for you from your posts.

Seems like you have clarity of mind, and are just being very careful about you next step.
That's good to see.
As you say, you don't want to rush it, and I understand that it has to be done right, with surgical precision, so that it minimizes the pain for everyone.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

I wish I'd had myself in therapy before filing.  Not with any T, but with a Buddhist leaning Trauma Informed T to help me learn to regulate my Nervous System.  Buddhists strive to cultivate a way to live with less suffering and more joy. 

I suppose getting the kids into T won't be possible, bc pd parents typically don't want anyone looking behind the curtain.

In that case, it's even more important for the good enough parent to get T so they can model coping strategies and navigating trauma for their children.

You don't need your wife's permission to see a T.  Maybe the sg can see a T secretly, but the GC would give the game away.

Fight for every inch you can get.  Evidence to show the court your situation.  Advocates to help you and your children through current and all future struggles.  Witnesses to stand up and do the right thing.

Good luck,

Hhaw, I am doing a lot of self therapy at the moment listening to audiobooks about recovery. I am going to continue with this to build myself up as much as possible. I am also hoping I can get the courage to get a therapist specialising on this kind of problems. But, I am always having in the back of my mind that any time now it can/will be unbearable and  I just have to go. To always have an alternative I keep booking hotels on a flexible deal so I can just go when this point is coming. I can't see it being to far into the future as I am struggling to just bring myself to be in the same room as uNPDw.

The kids needs to get a T, but there is no way I will be able to arrange that whilst still living with her. We are supposed to be the perfect family that everybody else envy. No problems are allowed to be taken with outsiders, except uNPDw's problems of course as she can tell anyone about how horrible I am......

However, I am pushing it now and I am doing alot for myself. Things I would never have imagined a couple years ago. I go on my own trips, work related or not. Booking myself massages, going to the gym, classes. But still, not enough but at least going in the right direction.

Suppose I am still to scared to just go, not completely Out of the FOG. I think I am waiting for it to be bad enough, bad the fact is that it was bad enough years ago.

To wait for a (relative) crisis won't work because you need to be doing the planning. You can do the planning without committing to pull the pin. Just because you see a lawyer doesn't mean you must file. You can see a lawyer and figure out the steps to take. And then one day if you feel like you're ready to jump, you CAN.

You may have to slip into a new habit of cash so you can pay for a lawyer on the downlow. Start by withdrawing like £50 or £100.  Come up with a reason. Take the blowup on the chin. A week later do it again. Say it's for the pub maybe. Won't go down well but oh well. You're an adult. Or something else.

EM:

Understanding the dynamics of your dysfunctional relationship is part of the puzzle.

Understanding how it effects your Nervous System, what it does to your ability to problem solve and access logic..... learn how to shut down fight or flight mode and ragain your emotional and biochemical footing is another piece of the puzzle you're entitled to and can seek out for yourself in Therapy, if you choose.  Maybe.  Hiding a Therapist from your PDw might be necessary and possible.  Feeling entilted and worthy enough to take that step, without discussion or explanation, might help in ways you can't see yet. 

I don't know and I wouldn't have known when I was wearing your shoes either.

What I do know is what I wish I'd have changed and what resources I'd have availed myself to.  I DID see Ts, but I didn't know there were Trauma Informed Ts with Buddhist leanings.... if there were at that time.  Talk T didn't help in any small way. 

I needed to get myself in a better headspace.... for everyone involved.  More planning and doing what I could, then putting the divorce/pd/worrying about my children on the backburner would have meant less worrying myself into an exhausted primal state where logic and creative problem solving skills were outside my grasp. 

You NEED to be able to problem solve and calm your Nervous System...... you're your most valuable asset.

Good luck and I'm glad you're cultivating as much self care you're managing. 

Thanks so much for all input.

What is really making a difference is that my cognitive dissonance is getting better, her mask slips way to often for me to even remotely start thinking it could get better. Yesterday she lost the plot for me helping one of the kids logging on the the school system, she needed to see it being done so she could help in the future. Today she went full blown mental about the kids sports team (she hates it and she has no involvement in it), there is a dads chat group where we have some light hearted banter. She told me she must join the group, I said no. She insisted she need to join the group and said the reason was so she could now when there is any changes to the schedule. I told her she doesn't need to as I would tell her of any changes. She then kicked off saying she has to join it and why can't she join. I couldn't help myself and told her the talk is to adult for her. She absolutely lost it starting to screaming at me, then I just told her "I told you". Now she refuse to take the kids to training, cause obviously the kids should be punished for something I have done.

Anyway, this just jump started my planning AGAIN. I need out before I get seriously mentally ill myself.

How are you documenting your situation?

Remember, your behaviors will be judged also if you're recording.

Talking to the best attorneys in your county will prevent your stbx pdw from hiring them.

Hhaw, I am just writing down the incidents and then recording as much as possible. Yes, I am aware my behaviour will also be looked at if ever using the recordings. But I am pretty sure anyone with an ounce of intelligence listening to them would now what is going on. She has now pity played it and told the kids how horrible I am treating her like a child and she has gone round in the house talking to her self saying this and that activity is not age appropriate for her. 

I have lined up a firm to speak to, just need the conviction to do it (which I think I have now).

You don't have to be committed to leaving to talk to them. Just go and get the advice you need.

 :yeahthat:

I am committed to leaving, she has just gaslighted her self out of any other option now. Made another lie and turned GC against me again, it makes my hearth bleeding when I hear GC laughing at me making jokes about me based on utter lies.

Just need to get massif together and the leave thus weekend. Couldn't care about anything else other than just break free. I can fight for the kids from a distance, I am of no use when at home in this environment.

Regarding getting the kids in therapy - a great time to do this is right after you file.  Have your attorney propose it to her attorney, you can say it's simply to help the kids process the divorce.  When the eyes of the court are watching it's hard for the PD to deny something that would be good for the kids, her lawyer will know this and guide her towards agreeing to therapy.

I've had better luck with therapists that list dialectical behavior therapy as something they practice, they tend to be more familiar with PDs than your normal, run of the mill therapist.  Having a therapist that is familiar with PDs helps because they can spot the peculiarities in the PD's behavior and quickly ascertain who the problem parent is.

Good luck!

My experience with PDs and TS for their children is dismal.  Even when they agree, they sabotage and pull the kids out if they can't control the situation completely.

By that I mean control the T so they're the one making false allegations to authorities about the "normal" parent, which is next level fockery.....esp if GC is being directed to lie by stbx mum.

I've never seen a PD allow therapy where they couldn't completely control the narrative. 

Looking down the road...... I'd try to get myself and SG NTO therapy before filing so it's in place with a T who understands the plot before the PD has a chance to say yes or no to the choice of TS.

This also sturdies up the narrative around the PD's abusive treatment of dad and the SG...... it's a paper trail. 

Hopefully, the Judge won't allow the PD to end SG's therapy once PD discovers it..... hopefully it's in place and one of the things the Judge wants to keep status quo. 

Hopefully the T can support the SG, help her understand and navigate the adult conflict/personal attacks, but more importantly ADVOCATE for this child during what promises to be an ongoing nightmare through SG's entire life....a toxic, blaming, critical, immature PD mother posing as a victim while weaponizing children and pulling the trigger without thought, remorse or the ability to self reflect on those choices, IME.

I'd consider contacting a domestic violence agency and asking for further support, advice and any protective measures for the children available.  It may be useful documentation down the road corroborating the diary, recordings and SG's situation.....GC's situation. 

I feel very sorry for the pD mum, but it's impossible to help people who lash out and do trauma when and if we try, ime.

In that case the primary mission becomes self care and mitigating harm to the children.....and I would like to see the courts SEE, understand and adopt that mission instead of assume everyone lies, split the baby and fail to protect the children, yet again in these situations.

Self care, bc someone should model a functional file for the kids and create a safe place to land.

Self care, bc you're obligated to save yourself, even if you can't save your wife.

So, back to interviews with attorneys and TS, I think.  Now is the time to build the theory of your legal case AROUND your documents and evidence.

You shouldn't say or allege what you can't prove, ime.

Most cases come down to he said/ she said, which is a maddening process when children are involved....we owe it to them to do better than that, ime

Documenting well enough so court officers, including the dumb bunnies likely to buy into the PD narrative but documenting wee enough they SEE the facts, without being able to deny or excuse them....is crucial, ime.

This begins with how we talk about the PD, always, so our voice isn't dismissed as vengeful or unhinged in a typical "divorce" ever.  Even though the PD has been cruel and relentless in her mission to turn the kids against you..... she's still the beloved mother of your children.  You should come across as a loving husband who has tried to "help" his....what do you call her when discussing your situation with attorneys, dv people, judges, neighbors and you FOO/ children?

The narrative....
The theory of your case begins with your evidence and you shouldn't lable your wife EVER, ime. 

You should state facts in a calm, concerned manner to allow listeners to come to their own conclusions.  If you succeed you will create advocates in the telling of your story, ime, instead of people who assume you're lying, or worse, crazy for putting up with what you're alleging without facts.

You want to preserve your integrity while showing the court you're interested....no.....INVESTED in facilitating the best possible relationship between the children and their mother.  You need the court to understand that and believe what your stbx w will likely support with PD behaviors IF you can just hold steady, not get triggered or say negative things about her.

If you pull together the evidence to support your case....you have more ability to limit harm to you and your children, ime.

IMHO, that would look like a good T who monitors the children's mental health, understands the situation and is charged with making reports regarding the Mum's behaviors as they affect the girls......if you can get that from a Judge, that might be helpful and limit the PD weaponizing the children....maybe.

If the PD can't help herself, and you've been able to show the Court harm to the children, maybe supervised visits only till Mum at least fakes appropriate behavior for a while.....then the T is back
monitoring the girls around visits.

It's going to o b a nightmare, no matter what you do, so I advise doing everything you can do to help yourself and your children through the difficult break up and beyond....which is learning good coping strategies, boundaries and emotional regulation for a lifetime of COWs (crisis of the week) bc there will always BE COWs

Having a PDmum is a difficult start in life.  Understanding and learning to COPE with a PD mum could be the silver lining in it.
Evidence collection, organize it, get familiar it so you can calmly lay your hands on any piece of it to back up every statement you make.
Theory of your case needs to be formed around the evidence. 
Good attorney.  You should choose wisely, bc your mental health will be greatly compromised IF you don't feel believed or understood by them, ime.
You need to believe in your counsel AND  if you don't, fire and hire someone better suited early on, rather than later.  Attorneys are tools we wield.  Once you hire an attorney....he or she is your pony.  You pet, feed, saddle and ride your pony through this process.  Avoid making them angry....many have huge egos, ime. 

Establish your story and integrity....never make a judgment or say a cross word about the PD.....be impeccable with your word, always.  The children are the important thing, the children the childrenthechildren.  Always.

Even with your attorney, choose words carefully.  Make it a habit to BE steady, consistently level and compassionate towards your stbx....we have compassion for mentally ill people....right?  She's not the enemy.  She's unwell and the mother of your children.  You made children with her, so be prepared for most people to have zero sympathy for you.  It's ok.  You don't need sympathy.  You need people to do their jobs and, unfortunately, good evidence is the leverage one uses to get compel jaded, very bitter court officers to step up and actually put your children's best interests IN the mix.  IME, they pay lip service to it, roll their eyes and do what they can to scrape their plate of your case as quickly as they can as priority.  Sad, but true.  You have to PROVE everything and always be someone the court CAN trust enough to give you what you're asking for.

Once you file that divorce, do not send mixed messages about your intentions (if you can help it.)

What is the best case scenario, once you're divorced, escapingman?

Your kids can't escape.  What will their lives look like?  Are you go ing for full custody? 

What would that look like?

Could you handle the girls if GC is full out warring against you?

There are 2 choices....to placate the PD parent
or
exert authority over them through the courts (which is laborious, expensive and extremely time consuming, ime.)

Everyrhing you file should be for maximum gain, bc going back is really tough.

Hashing out every detail may seem extreme, but will be central to getting any peace in your lives regarding visitation schedule, hand off, pick ups.....T for the kids.... enforceable through the Courts....how you communicate, any checks on the PD...you have to go for the reasonable max and do not settle for anything akin to emotional suicide, ime.

You're advocating for your ability to give your children some normalcy and protection in a situation offering none as it should ands, ime.

Don't let the PD talk you out of a good plan you make with great consideration, if you can help it.

Compassionate people are vulnerable to that compassion being used against us.

Make a plan.  Stick to it.  Ask a few good supporters to help you stay that course and not veer from it.... Let the people who don't understand go.

  All suggestions made with hindsight.  Your situation is unique and your own, escapingman.

Good luck

Quote from: hhaw on October 01, 2021, 09:26:20 AM
I've never seen a PD allow therapy where they couldn't completely control the narrative.

Dr. T (Shrink4Men) mentions this in one of her videos.
She talks about how the PD will sometimes decide to meet the T on their own first, so that they can suss them out, and if possible get them onside and believing that the normal parent is to blame before the proper therapy has even begun.

It's staggering how they simply must have control over everything.
Personally, looking back, in hindsight, I can see many examples of my BPD ex gf making the decisions through coercion and manipulation, that at the time, I thought were my decisions.

I'm so glad that my relationship ruptured before we talked seriously about moving in together/getting married etc, because there are so many really sad stories on these forums, including escapingman's.

God bless those few boundaries of mine that she wasn't able to break down for some reason, which caused her to seek weaker prey.
I'm a lucky man.

Again, good luck escapingman.
We're all rooting for you.

She is throwing it all on this now, 2 solid days she played the victim card to the kids and have at the moment managed to turn them both against me. She is calling me all the things she actually is, and they are lapping it up (or are they?). At the moment she is love bombing them both and at my expense. I have nothing to say, as soon as I have tried to reason they run to her saying I am mean. I done nothing. I am beside myself.

BUT

All of this is just solidifying the fact I am leaving tomorrow, I can't fight her from home as her manipulations beats anything I say. If I stay I would seriously worry about what I would do to someone that spend all their energy on making my life miserable. I am leaving tomorrow morning, I won't go back. Next week I will contact a family solicitor and start the ending of this nightmare. I love my kids to bits but I can't be with them when they are manipulated against me.

I never knew these kind of evil people existed before this.

Quote from: escapingman on October 01, 2021, 01:50:45 PM
All of this is just solidifying the fact I am leaving tomorrow, I can't fight her from home as her manipulations beats anything I say.

This is extremely accurate, you can't fight them behind closed doors.  PDs play far too dirty to be countered by a rational partner.  Kudos to you for seeing it prior to leaving, I didn't fully realize it until I left and spent time with the kids without her around. 

When you leave, be prepared to go through hell for a short while.  But, it's a different (lesser) kind of hell.  Instead of manipulations behind closed doors, my experience was a nonstop barrage of BS accusations from her and her attorney.  Know that it will eventually dissipate, once things are out in the open the PD will eventually slow down the crazy behavior.  Just remain strong in your position - there is no reconciling, we're moving forward with a divorce, there will be no changing of minds.  I would also avoid verbal conversations - make the PD put everything in writing so you have time to think things over and it can be admissible in court.

Quote from: escapingman on October 01, 2021, 01:50:45 PM
and they are lapping it up (or are they?)

I suspect you'll find they aren't 100% on her side, once you create a calm house for them to feel free to be themselves.  It's not gonna happen overnight, but you'll eventually see a change in them.  Remember, a PD's love is conditional, so the kids have to "perform" for her to be loved.  Your love is unconditional so sometimes you will be secondhand news but the reality is they very much appreciate you deep down.  Just hold your head high, never talk negatively about mom, and be the stable, loving parent they need.  Those actions will eventually be rewarded.

I'm going to circle back around on the therapist thing too.  My experience is that any T worth their salt will absolutely demand to speak with both parents before taking a child as a patient.  I'm fortunate that my kids have therapists that aren't rookies, they have seen the parental manipulation game many times.  My exPDw actually tried to sneak them into therapy without me involved prior to the divorce, and the therapist told us to take a hike.  I agree the PD will try to manipulate things, I've found it best to sit back a bit and let the PD burn themselves down.  Never tell the T you think she's a PD, but don't be afraid to tell them what behaviors are happening, but also hold back a little because if you tell them what's REALLY happening it sounds so outlandish they'll start to suspect you're the problem.  It's a delicate dance for sure.  Eventually the PD will act out and the T will see what's going on.  I won't go into details, but at this point all of my kids' therapists see me as the stable parent because I didn't come out of the gate screaming about how mom is the problem, I just let her behavior speak for itself.

And I'll repeat this mantra that's been shared on here a lot.  Remember that it's a marathon, not a sprint.  You're gonna have some REALLY tough days when it feels like the PD has beaten you.  Could be three days after filing, could be two years after the divorce is finalized.  They'll continue to play dirty every way they can, just remember the goal is releasing healthy 18 year olds into the world, whatever small battles you may lose along the way don't matter.

And like me, you'll look back a few years from now when you've found yourself again, and wonder how you put up with this crap for so long.  It's no way to live life.  Best of luck to you brother!

I have left.

Said good morning to GC but got told she is not speaking to me, not a good sign for a kid to be trained to behave like that. SG then came down and spent some time with me, told me she love me more than anything. That felt good. But she will suffer with me away, but what can I do? Last night I laid in bed shaking with anger wonder how anyone can be that mean. Couldn't fall asleep as my body was full of this fight fight fight feeling.

I have various hotels booked for the coming 2 weeks. Going to contact a law firm next week to find out my options. I left all my stuff at home but I don't even care I she throw it all in the bin, I just want my life back.

Wow! Kudos to you escapingman!

I know this is an extremely hard step to take.

You are brave and strong to do this.

Keep up the good work, mate!

We've all got your back.

I don't know how things work where you are.....in divorce....with children.....and a PD.

You would benefit from knowing before you go, ime.

A solid plan would help you feel steady and level....avoid being sabotaged and avoid mistakes.

Once you go....once you file things will escalate like mad, ime.

Be ready to document it.

The kids will think it's their fault you left.

One more thing....if you've been super stoic thru the years..... you've kept secrets and everyone will be shocked when you go.

You should have a group of supporters who believe and understand your situation.....to support your mission and validate your experience, ime.

A good high conflict attorney who's dealt with PD divorces and feels up to this one

I fear your nose is on the PD pebble and you can see nothing else in the field...the other rocks and pebbles and trees and sky.

That you've been documenting and recording is good.  Make sure you take your evidence when you go.

Be prepared for the PD to use the kids in ways you can't imagine.

You might go back to her ....think of it as an opportunity to document your children's reality if you're feeling desperate and stuck in survival mode. 

Any time you raise your voice or get angry.... it's what the PD will be pointing at while posturing dramatically as victim.

Be careful you don't muddy the waters with erratic behaviors if you can.

Good luck

We're pulling for you.

Hhaw, I have left with literally nothing. I can't go back cause I think something bad would happen. I have to take ut from here.

If you do go back, take rational people/witnesses with you.
Please.

I am not going back.

Quote from: escapingman on October 02, 2021, 04:58:27 AM
But she will suffer with me away, but what can I do?

One thing my lawyer told me right after I filed was that I needed to assert myself to my exPDw and tell her I expect time with the kids.  In his words: "you're not asking for time with them, you're telling her that you're their father and you expect time with them".  I strongly suggest you do the same.  Both of your daughters need you, especially right now.  You don't want them to think your leaving had anything to do with them.  When you're with them you won't be a perfect dad, it's okay to be a human going through a hard time.  Just be there for them, that's what counts.  Those first few weeks were rough for me, but that time with the kids was crucial in quickly repairing whatever damage may have occurred from me suddenly leaving the house.  Put it all in writing, make her tell you no in writing.  Don't answer her phone calls.  If she does tell you no, show that to the courts.

Quote from: hhaw on October 02, 2021, 08:29:25 AM
I don't know how things work where you are.....in divorce....with children.....and a PD.

You would benefit from knowing before you go, ime.

This right here.  Your leaving without filing anything may place you at a big disadvantage.  You need to get legal advice and take action ASAP in order to avoid accusations of "abandonment".  Could be abandoning the family impacting your parenting time, could be abandoning the home impacting how much you get in the divorce settlement (they may just give the house 100% to her).  At least that's how it works in my jurisdiction.  I ran a risk by leaving, but she got served the same day so we got past the abandonment arguments pretty quickly.  Bottom line, you need to get out in front of the legal side of things.

Be prepared for anything.  Crazy accusations, attempts at restraining orders, attempts to woo you back, parental alienation any way you can imagine it and also in ways that completely surprise you.  I saw all of that in the first few months.  Stay strong and determined.  You mentioned the fight fight fight feeling.  I had the same feeling and it's a good thing if it's channeled correctly.  If that fight feeling is directed in anger toward your wife, drop that and turn it into a determination of steel to fight for your kids and your freedom. 

You've got this.  I'll never forget how I felt the day I left.  Know that it gets so much better, but it's one day at a time.  Fight the fight you have in front of you right now, hold your head high, and show your daughters who your dad really is.  And remember you have a community of folks here that have been through it, if you don't know how to deal with something put it on the forum and let us throw some solutions at you.  This community was immensely helpful to me when I went through it. 

Thanks for your input. I gave been thinking alot and might actually go back tomorrow and then contact a lawyer from home. If I can stay clear headed I might have a big advantage of being at home. As she is currently playing the game of trying to make me look the crazy one this might work. I need to work out a plan today though so I am not making any costly mistakes.

Thanks for all your help.

Be very careful if you decide to return home.  Don't get caught up in a conflict that could greatly affect you and the kids (eg, she calls the cops for a domestic violence situation).  If it's legal in your jurisdiction keep your phone in your pocket recording at all times, so you can provide immediate evidence you are not the aggressor.

If you go back, your stbxpd will be likely do everything she can to BAIT YOU INTO behaving irrationally, screaming, raising your voice, lashing out with snark..... IN FRONT OF THE KIDS, particularly.  The kids are under her complete control right now, getting ONLY her skewed narrative and I'll guess that narrative includes your abuse, your lashing out frightening her, your threats, your anger and now your abandonment of them and her....... she's telling stories and the kids are prisoners with no choices right now.

The PD is controlling the narrative.  I'd think long and hard about how I'd play your next moves.  Sending a text to DOCUMENT your intentions, give your (very reasoned and reasonble) narrative so YOU can hold that up in Court against her verbal account of events. 

For instance: 
Dear, PD.  I'll be back (insert return time and date), as we agreed.  I'm ready to sit down and talk about the (insert the disussion you left over) in reasonable tones.   As I said, I will physically remove myself anytime you raise your voice or name call in front of the children, going forward.  There's no need to raise voices or name call.  I'd really like to work on ways to communicate calmly.

Love,
escapingman

At least it's documentation you can give the court to back up your narrative.

I hope you have plenty of recordings of the PD losing her mind, screaming and going nuts, bc a recording is better than your word...... even if you share it with attorneys and can't use it in court. At least it's a record she can't refute.... and everyone will know who's who in this.

Remember, once she realizes you're recording her she'll stop giving you open chances to record her going forward.

IF it's illegal to record in your area...... find out before letting opposing counsel know you've done it. You might ONLY share it with your attorney to SHOW what you're reality IS.  It certainly helped my case in some ways..... the few times I CO:ULD get my STBX ASPD h on tape..... it showed everyone he wasn't the calm, aw shucks loving Father and husband looking for the chance to BE those things.  Had I known what Court WAS and how it worked I would have pulled together EVIDENCE proactively so the PD couldn't drag things out for 2 years, creating chaos and confusion as he went...... it was devastating to my mental health.  I'm not sure my brain will ever return to my base line normal again.

Document.  Think ahead. I'm afraid you're now in a chess game and he with the best records has the best chance of winning and winning for you is a short divorce with fair custody and visitation terms.

The PD winning is a long, drawn out legal battle with you as likely as her to be unstable and unhinged.  The PDs tend to dramatically pose as victims while we're stoic and understated in our posturing.... which workds against our narrative, IME.

You bettr get used to telling your story.  There's lots of information already outlining how to tell your story and be taken seriously, not dismissed or punished.

Good luck

I am going back tonight, I have a plan. This will not be easy, but I have realised I can't keep running as I just play into her hands. It's out children, but she plays the victim card how she has to babysit her own children. She can't even drive them to training without causing a scene. Now, I am going home. Going to keep to myself and live my life on my own. The kids are welcome to join me, but I won't pressurise them as that is running the risk they (at least GC) will scream and run to uNPDw saying I am mean trying to get validated.

I will do my bits, take the kids to and from training and matches. But the rest, I will leave to her as she has pushed me out of everything else. I need to be at home having access to all paperwork, protect my stuff and protect my children for when her mask with them eventually slips.

Number 1 for this week, contact a family lawyer and hopefully get a meeting to discuss options. I won't put any other tasks in, this is the most important one and need to be done.

Thanks for all your help.

I have a few suggestions for paperwork and "stuff": ASAP, make copies of all paperwork and put the copies in a safe place to which your wife doesn't have access; find a place (storage locker, friend's home) to which you can move stuff that you're concerned about.

Back home, blanked and ignorera by uNPDw  and GC. Very cautios behaviour from SG.  Can only imagine what kind of manipulations has been going on, that's why I needed to go back and fight from here. What soon to be X doesn't realise is that the more she turns the kids against me more determined I am to push ahead with this.

Wishing you luck and strength.

This is just unbearable, wish it was possible to record silence. So this morning she has walked round the house, in and out where I am, behaving like I don't exist. Speaking to the kids before school as everything is normal. I am getting the looks from GC knowing if I say a word to her she will scream to get uNPDw on her side against me. Trying to work and have meetings and she is singing in the house, coming in to my office pretending to do some important job. The sooner I can get out for real the better, just need to collect copies of everything and call the lawyer. Only problem, she is ALWAYS in the house, she never leave (other than the 2 hours of gym class or the 5 minutes to the post office). But, today no gym for her so no chance getting anything done. Tomorrow she will be out, then I have 2 hours of trying to get what I need.

I am not sure why I even work, what is the point of sitting here earning the money for someone that ignores me? It will be interesting to see what she does when reality hits her and no one is giving her all that free money anymore. I am sure she will do her best to take me to the cleaners and play the victim card she deserves everything and me nothing. To be honest, she has already laid out that threat before, and the threat that she will make sure I never see the kids again - not because she want the kids but to punish me.

I really hate her, I really do.

Well, your stbx w certainly has you triggered and operating from fear and hate.

This is a weak position to operate in, ime.

Please shift focus to your children.  If you slip, go back again and again without judging yourself...please

Don't allow the PD to keep your focus on foolish things.....what she'll do and take..... that's up to the Courts.  Not her.

The best way to impact the Courts is to document AND present a rational, consistent and child centered demeanor with plenty of evidence to back up your case.  I know you're working on that, but....

You do not want to be huffing around, crazy eyed barking about the crazy things the pd says and dies, ime.  Repeating what she says makes you look unstable, ime.

Go back to the mission, over and over.  Gather evidence.  Document everything going forward.  Be patient and consistent with the kids and your pdw.  Always. 

Think down the road....to court.  The court doesn't care about stupid threats and arguments......the court only cares about evidence. EVIDENCE.

Your wife will escalate her behavior once she knows you're filing, so maybe just ignore her and be as kind as you can.... she's mentally ill and the mother of your children. 

You're locked in a destructive power struggle with zero control.......so STOP thinking about it.  You can't change it YET.

Think about what you can control. 

1.  How you act, what you say, what you refuse to be baited into saying/doing, etc.  THIS is all you can control so keep your head where your feet are. 

2. Stay out if other people's heads (SOOOPHing.). Don't worry about what PD says.... she's got your nose on a pebble you can't control.  Get your nose off that pebble so you can see the entire field.  A good TI therapist could help you DO this
  It's important, ime. 

3.  Gathering evidence and making it secure.  Get your important documents and cherished possessions out if harm's way.  PDs know how to push buttons.  Be proactive.  Do what you can then learn to accept the way things are.  Release the outcome.  If the PD tears up cherished family photos.... it's bc you didn't secure them, not bc the PD surprised you.  KNOW she'll do her best to unhinge you then point at YOU as the crazy one.  This is what PDs DO.

Adjust your expectations and stop letting her upset you so much when she behaved abominably..... it's not personal.  It's what she'd do to anyone, bc she's broken.

You aren't, so find some way to shift off the dumb pebbles and onto the ones moving you through this process with with economy of motion.

No more talk about the PD not working and you quitting your job.  You're supposed to be the reasonable parent. 

Head in the game....focus on the kids.  Focus on the evidence.  Focus on finding a good Attorney who understands high conflict divorce with difficult people.

THESE things will likely bring serenity and fair outcome......

Letting the PD control your emotions will likely not.

Good luck

 :yeahthat:

P. S.

Vent all you want in the board, em.

It's other people you should limit what you talk about with.


Not us.  WE get it.

Once you identify other 3d people who get it, you can speak more frankly with them too.

I get it, I just needed to vent abit. What is the hardest is to to ignore the children, but short term I have to as she is using them to bait me. I am calm now and I am not acting out of anger or emotions, I just need to get out so I can live my life in peace. Without that I can't save the children. They are short term better off being in her team as the alternative is a full scale war in the house.

Tomorrow I am planning to contact the lawyers I found. Its time to get this show started.

And, thanks for all advice! I really appreciate it.

A bit disappointed here, had found a solicitor I contacted but never heard back from. It's such a big step to take but suppose I just need to get to contact another one. The process needs to start as she is turning the kids more and more against me. GC just tells me to go away as soon as I am near her, now she also told me that SG is not speaking to me either (didn't look like SG agreed but uNPDw stod in the kitchen with a big grin on her face. Honestly, people like her should be put in prison for what they do. Anyway, I am staying calm and just keeping to myself. But I just need the advice from a solicitor if I can move out without losing any claim on either the house or risking custody. Staying here any longer will kill me from inside.

It may feel like a big chunk to chew but please consider contacting multiple solicitors.

1) If one or two don't get back, you won't have lost so much time.

2) You can choose the best fit.

Square: I am aware of this, but it is incredible difficult to organise this with 1) stbxNPDw in the house almost 24/7 and 2) working all day so not time to get out to take calls. I am going to try to get a few emails out to a few more solicitors tomorrow. As things are unbearable at home I will probably invent a business trip next week and try to sort most from a hotel.

Yeah, believe me, I get it.

I still haven't scored a plumber yet.

So I spoke to a solicitor I really liked, small firm with 2 senior and 1 junior solicitors working together and with experience of abuse. I got a face to face appointment next week. Wish me luck!

Sounds great, best of luck!

I'm wishing you luck and much evidence, EM.

Lots and lots of evidence.

Perhaps get names of child psychologists from the attorneys they recommend.

Always always be focused on mitigating harm to the children.  The alienation tactics are considered abuse in theUS. The verbal abuse of a spouse in front of the children is considered abusive.

Document everything so you can SHOW the T what your children are dealing with. Be honest about the situation  and back up what you say.  Don't allege things you can't prove, IME.

 :yeahthat:

And don't mention personality disorders. Just behaviour.

And very best of luck.

When I spoke to them on the phone I only mentioned some of the lighter abuse, they where still chocked  :aaauuugh: Didn't mention PD but they might be aware, they seem to have experience with that.

She told me to not do recordings for the court, sounded like they courts here don't like it. But she said it could be used for themselves to get a feeling for the case. Next week is only a first meeting to assess next steps and I can back out after it if I don't feel a connection. My decision to get the divorce is final though, I am not going to suffer anymore. The saddest thing is that I am even better off on my own without the kids the way she has manipulated them against me. But I suppose they will see the light at some point, I am not going to go and force them to pick my side as that will only make things uglier.

I don't know but I'm hoping you'll get at least 50% custody and when they are with you they may calm down, especially SG. Several folks here describe having children wound up when the children are transferred to them for visitation and then they relax... only to have them wound up again next time.

You may want to think about parenting tactics especially for GC when you have them. A way to calmly convey that you will not be spoken to like that. A calm and reasonable punishment if they push it, but one that you can enforce rather than turning into a battle of wills.

I did it, I went to the solicitor. I told her about the abuse, this was scary as I have never ever told anyone about it before. She wanted to listen to my voice recording and was horrified about the extent of rage my stbxuNPDw showed. She asked me if she has any diagnose and said she really has control issues, pretty sure she knew exactly what the diagnose was but neither of us mentioned it in name.

Her first suggestion was to try to get a non molestation order through the courts and have stbxuNPDw removed from the house. That would involve me having to report a couple of previous incidents to the police and ideally wait for her next outburst and contact the police when she attacks me or the kids next. I don't really feel comfortable with this as I know this will open Pandora's box and stbxuNPDw will try to turn it around me being the problem. I don't think I can go ahead with this even if I have a good chance to get the order through the courts.

Second option is to use less blame and try to get her to agree to a divorce still on unreasonable behaviour but not as harsh. The idea would be to serve her the notification in about a month and for me to be away when this is done. I was also ordered by solicitor to immediately contact a doctor to get the abuse logged and to get a therapist.

So the plan is, first a doctor and to get referred to a T. Then file for divorce and serve her the papers. But all the time be prepared for the first suggestion if stbxuNPDw lash out and make any serious abuse.

It's a big weight from my chest to have been to meeting, I see some wage light in the end of the tunnel. I just need to enter it now....

Well done E.M.
I'm really pleased for you.

There will be tough times ahead, but it sounds like you're getting really good advice, and that you have options.
I agree with you about taking the second option.
You don't want to poke the bear any more than you need to.

There'll be plenty of people here to help you through the specifics as time goes on.
Many on here (not me) have gone through divorces with PD's, and I'm sure they'll be a great help when you finally start proceedings.

Having never had to go through a divorce with my PD, the only advice I can give is to keep your eyes on the goal, and make it as painless for the kids as possible.
There'll be times when they think it's all you fault (that's what your PD will tell them), but they will come to see the truth in the end.
But don't tell them that she has a PD, or bad mouth her in any way (I'm sure you know that already).

On that note, I highly recommend this guy's YouTube channel.
It's called DSD (DadSurvivingDivorce)
https://www.youtube.com/c/DadSurvivingDivorce/videos

He has gone through exactly what you are about to go through, and has a ton of videos discussing everything you need to know, from the alienation of the kids against you, to them getting older and seeing what it was really all about.
I'm sure that channel will be a big help to you.

Good luck mate.
You deserve a bit of peace, and you've taken the first step.

Well done!

Ok, this has escalated fast. SG came into me and asked for a lift to school, apparently neither her mum or sister is speaking to her. So I took her and she starts telling me about how miserable she is and how she can't concentrate in school. All she thinks about is the shouting and misery at home. Citing her sister shouting at her, her mum shouting at her, her sister shouting at me, her mum shouting at me and me not talking to stbx. She needs therapy and she needs it badly, but she is to scared her mum will find out so she says she doesn't want it. I have contacted my GP (doctor) today to try to get an appointment to at least get therapy for myself and see what can be done about SG. If this abuse continues (which it will), I might need to just take SG out of the house and live with her just us two for a while. Didn't speak about this with the solicitor but for the well being of a child this must be an option, unless I have to go down the route of non molestation order. But having stbxuNPDw removed from the house could backlash and me being blamed by the kids, especially GC.

I am at my end here, I am tearing my hear of what to do. But at least the ball has started rolling.

I am feeling sick. Been speaking to doctor who will report this to social services as kids are being abused and also report this to the police on behalf of me.

Let's see what kind of he'll this will be.

One day at a time.
You're protecting your kids, whether they see it right now or not.  This is why you can't plan too far ahead, you just don't know what is going to transpire. Just know that you're doing the right thing, and it's going to be tough for a while, but it'll get better eventually
We're rooting for you

That's the thing about abuse, abusers, telling and the abused.  If we can't protect the kids, when they tell, it's better if the kids don't tell, imo.  Facing the abuser's wrath alone is terrifying and unfair, imo.

I wonder if seeking help at a shelter would provide solutions an attorney won't have or care to look into.

If SG tells, she'll require supervised visits with the mum, at least for a while, ime.

If you take her out of the home you should go through proper steps ...maybe a shelter or advocacy group will know how.

You want to avoid labels like abandonment, kidnapping and without the court's permission.

You might be able to move out with the SG BEFORE filing divorce.....without being punished.  Once you file..... everything goes into lockdown in the US....at least for the normal parent,ime.

The PDs seem to run around doing what were told NOT to do and getting away with it, bc they're posturing as victims loudly and consistently, ime.

We tend to seek peace and avoid blathering and overstating, then,vwhen things go wrong we open up and tell the entire PD truth which makes us appear unhinged , ime.

I say be prepared to back up and protect SG child.  Make the divorce about the abuse and document every inch if what you'll base your case and actions on.

Maybe you'll benefit from a paying in a shelter while you get your plan together.....IF SG's mental health is seriously impacted from being in the home?  Not saying it's what you should do.

You should research all options and make a good plan with a few level headed supporters by your side,c whatever you do, ime.

90% research.
10% execution.

Have a plan.

Protect kids long sleeve warm, if you can

Release perfection and protecting kids all the time, bc you can't, ime.

The better you document, the better your chances of a good enough outcome, ime.

Breathe, em.
Breathe.

Your stress is palpable. I'm sorry. Just keep moving forward. We're pulling for you and the kids.

I know this is scary for you. I am very glad to hear you are taking action.

Know that all of us here have your back.

Quote from: escapingman on October 14, 2021, 02:52:11 AM
Didn't speak about this with the solicitor but for the well being of a child this must be an option, unless I have to go down the route of non molestation order.

I've never had to deal with a divorce attorney, but I've hired attorneys for quite a bit of business-oriented litigation and one thing I can tell you across the board is that it is 100% critical that you tell your attorney absolutely _everything_ that could even potentially be relevant to your case. It is especially important to let them know things that might put you in a bad light.

An attorney is hired to represent your interests and what you say to them is confidential. They can only represent you effectively if you present your entire situation with complete candor. Do not hold anything back. The worst thing you can do to your attorney is surprise them with something.

Stay strong. You will get through this. You are taking the rights steps to protect yourself and your kids.

I've never had to deal with a divorce attorney, but I've hired attorneys for quite a bit of business-oriented litigation and one thing I can tell you across the board is that it is 100% critical that you tell your attorney absolutely _everything_ that could even potentially be relevant to your case. It is especially important to let them know things that might put you in a bad light.


The only reason I didn't tell the solicitor everything was that I ran out of time, if I had all the time in the world I would still be sitting with the solicitor telling her what was going on.....