Marriage and kids as anchor for BPD?

[PenName]

I hate that I ever questioned this, but it was a gnawing question that I would love some perspective on from some of you who know borderline well...

I believe fairly strongly that my ex gf may have undiagnosed borderline personality disorder. Background on why I believe this is in my first post: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=83613.0

Anyway, the first 6-12 months of being with this woman felt like one of the most beautiful experiences of my life...it did seem weird, however, that on our first date she told me, "Just so you know, I want a lot of kids."
I thought it was a little strange (we were friends previously, so I knew her), but I chalked it up to a strong woman being clear on what she wants before committing to move forward.

She had also been divorced and so when we met, we were both in agreement about not wanting marriage...however, that shifted later and she did say she wanted that again.

My position was that I wanted her as a life partner, wanted to commit to her for life, etc., but I am middle-aged and don't agree with marriage contract law in the US where half my life's work could potentially go to someone else in the event it did not work out(would probably feel different if we met at 22). I feel totally ok about what you build with someone being split if it doesn't work out, but money you made long before meeting your partner is off limits in my mind if you break up. Basically, I'm totally on board with sharing in a relationship, but if it doesn't work out, I don't think either should have to send alimony checks to an ex...BTW, she has a great career and makes more money than me at the moment (says she would not be a stay-at-home mom either) and I felt the same for her not sending me checks. The issue is that I saved, invested and lived frugally for half my life to build a good savings/retirement. I just didn't want to sign a contract that that was fair game in the event of divorce. It breaks my heart to read of others on this forum and elsewhere who feel trapped because of financial entanglement.

Anyway, I've had the above belief system since long before meeting her, but she took it very personally. She was very upset about the idea of a prenup.

The post linked above goes further in, but to summarize, our relationship was very rocky. Extreme highs and lows, very little feeling of stability, hours-long circular arguments, boundary-pushing, etc. My therapist is the first who mentioned she had some characteristics of BPD.

I guess my question is: Was I cynical to wonder if even subconsciously, her pressure for marriage(no prenup) and multiple kids might have been her wanting anchors to the relationship?  Should I feel guilt about my outlook on prenups? I realize "prenup" is like a dirty word to a lot of people, but I sincerely see it as MORE romantic than the idea of either of us having a FINANCIAL incentive to stay in or leave our relationship. I still have a lot of guilt and feelings like maybe I WAS selfish, but I swear it came from an earnest place of wanting out relationship to only be based on love.

Would appreciate any perspective. Thanks.

[NumbLotus]

Through hard work and frugality you have a pile of savings and I don't blame you for wanting to exclude it from the marriage contract. I do believe, as it appears you do also, that marital property is to be shared, but premarital property can be different.

If she has BPD or a lot of the traits, this will be a sticking point for the entirety of your relationship. It will come up again and again as a betrayal of her. Even if you cave, the fact that you hesitated will come up.

[PenName]

Thanks for the feedback!

And rereading my post, I think I was a little clumsy in describing. I do want kids and would be on board with a marriage where there is not a contractual power dynamic (incentive to leave or stay based on money).

I guess my question was, does anyone think BPs sometimes seek out things like many kids or no prenup because it does add to their toolkit of control and making it harder to be abandoned? I feel so much guilt thinking that way, but another side of me has witnessed many examples of what appear to be controlling or manipulative behavior (often plausibly deniable), so it's been a very confusing thought process.

I

[GettingOOTF]

I am not BPD and I would not enter into a marriage with someone who insisted on a legal escape hatch.  I don’t see how this is a PD issue.

Everyone has different views on commitment. A prenup would be an absolute deal breaker for me.  To me it screams “hedging” and I’m not prepared to make the changes to my life I’d have to make to be married if the other person wasn’t in it 100%. Especially if kids are involved.

I read an article recently about a woman who called off her marriage because the groom insisted on a prenup. She gave the wedding reception to a homeless shelter. Her reasoning was similar to mine.

Everyone has their own deal breakers. Life is easier for us when we find someone who agrees with them rather than finding someone with different views and trying to talk them out of their own deal breakers.

[PenName]

I am not BPD and I would not enter into a marriage with someone who insisted on a legal escape hatch.  I don't see how this is a PD issue.

Everyone has different views on commitment. A prenup would be an absolute deal breaker for me.  To me it screams "hedging" and I'm not prepared to make the changes to my life I'd have to make to be married if the other person wasn't in it 100%. Especially if kids are involved.

I read an article recently about a woman who called off her marriage because the groom insisted on a prenup. She gave the wedding reception to a homeless shelter. Her reasoning was similar to mine.

Everyone has their own deal breakers. Life is easier for us when we find someone who agrees with them rather than trying to talk them out of their own deal breakers.

I think others could maybe relate after being in relationships where it seemed like methods of control were being used.

And that's ok for you to have your view of being offended. For people where there is a huge disproportion in assets, but still want to feel like they are marrying for love ONLY, it undeniably creates a power dynamic that is the farthest thing away from romance. I've seen many people on this board trapped because of financial control. My feeling is if a relationship becomes toxic, two parties should be able to walk away without either person taking a huge loss (especially from income from decades before they knew their partner).

Again, my concerns would be very different if my SO and I both met in our 20s and were essentially starting from zero.

So, I very much think my concern is valid where there is a potential for control dynamics with a potential PD.

[GettingOOTF]

I'm not in my 20s and I have a very successful career and the assets that come with that.

I simply would not enter into a relationship with someone who didn't have what I have financially or share the same goals around saving and investing for the future. I've been with someone who made and had less, someone who didn't see the value in savings etc. and the complications that come with that aren't worth it to me.

My point was that refusing a prenup is not a PD/BPD behavior. It's perfectly reasonable and understandable for her to feel this way. Why try to change her views on something that is clearly important to her rather than find someone who shares your values?

With my example I wouldn't start dating someone who had a lesser earning potential and fewer assets than me and then hope they'd change to see and do things my way. That's simply not how people work. I was married to someone diagnosed with BPD. I spent years trying to convince him to change. My time and money would have been better spent looking for someone who shared my values and my goals. It was a hard lesson to learn.

Your views are perfectly understandable and reasonable, but they are your views. Not everyone will share them. It's important for all of us to know our boundaries and other people having boundaries of their own isn't a PD behavior.

[Whiteheron]

I wanted to speak to one of your questions - about the kids. stbx was happiest when I was trapped at home with the kids. He used them as a way to isolate and control me. When the youngest was about to enter school full-time, stbx started having panic attacks and tried to get me to agree to have more kids (even though he didn't want any more). He needed me to stay at home with a child so that he knew where I was at all times. I was not allowed to venture out into the world where there were other adults my age.

I realize it would be different with you being the potential future dad, but PDs can definitely use the kids as a means of control.

As for a prenup - I wouldn't get married again without one. I've been through way too much.

[PenName]

I wanted to speak to one of your questions - about the kids. stbx was happiest when I was trapped at home with the kids. He used them as a way to isolate and control me. When the youngest was about to enter school full-time, stbx started having panic attacks and tried to get me to agree to have more kids (even though he didn't want any more). He needed me to stay at home with a child so that he knew where I was at all times. I was not allowed to venture out into the world where there were other adults my age.

I realize it would be different with you being the potential future dad, but PDs can definitely use the kids as a means of control.

As for a prenup - I wouldn't get married again without one. I've been through way too much.

Thank you. I really appreciate your perspective.

[ICantThinkOfAName]

At first when I read OOTFs perspective I was a bit triggered.  I am in a situation where I am going to lose quite a few assets that I have worked very hard for and he has not worked at all for.  So I was like heck yeah pre-nup!  Then when I read the second post and Out of the FOG stated that they would only get involved with someone who was like minded financially that made a whole lot more sense.  Why get involved with someone when you feel the need to ask for a pre-nup?  There is obviously something there that is untrustworthy that would give you pause and make you want to do that.  Also, in most states, pre-marital assets remain yours even without a pre-nup.  Just make sure you keep them separate.  I have a house from my previous marriage and that remains off limits to him.  Make sure you make note of 401K balances as well. 

[ICantThinkOfAName]

And also wanted to say in a previous marriage, I broke up with him because of his nasty behavior.  He was super super super nice and did a 180!  Then I got pregnant, and he went right back his old self.  So yeah, they want you tied in so that they can relax and be "themselves".

[Andeza]

Hi PenName, I'm going step out of my normal posting area, the pd parents side, to offer a slightly different perspective that I hope will be valuable to you.

I was the anchor child for my UbpdM. Let me offer some back story to that. Neither of my parents could have children, and after trying to adopt for years, my dad saw red flags in my mom and was thinking about leaving her altogether. But then I came along for adoption, the stars aligned, and he felt compelled to stay because he believed it was the right thing to do.

I now believe that the only reason my M wanted a child, specifically a daughter, was to act as an anchor to keep dad in the marriage, and also to act as her retirement plan. I was expected to fill the "dutiful daughter" role and care for in her old age.

When I got married and moved far, far away, that was one dream crushed. When dad divorced her, there went the rest. Her denial and rage, petty desire for revenge, and attempt to alienate me from my dad was all extremely intense. It was a horrible time.

I absolutely believe that at least some BPD individuals do this, want children, to lock their spouse into the relationship. I will not make a blanket statement however, indicating all, as I only have my own experience to speak from.

Now as practical advice, I would encourage you to keep, essentially, a dating journal. When you enter a relationship with someone, don't be in a hurry, everything I've read indicates that disordered individuals try to accelerate a relationship at a ridiculous rate because they can't hide their crazy for long. So in this journal, you would record red flags, and any time you wanted to take a relationship to the next stage, you review those red flags and consider very carefully how you wish to proceed.

Good luck to you.

[SparkStillLit]

Andeza this seems very sound.
If there's ever a next time (I can't see past this right now, I say if something happens to updh, I will NEVER pair whatsoever ever ever again), but if it so happens, I think this would be the safe way to proceed.

[Andeza]

We (whether it was a parent, spouse, SO, or other person in your life with PD) frequently suffer from something termed abuse amnesia. Basically we just say to ourselves "It wasn't really THAT bad was it?" Or we forget about it entirely. When in reality it was that bad. I strongly advocate recording or noting abuse/red flags to combat the amnesia, and also to help us process the incident in the moment or shortly thereafter instead of letting crap build up for years until our bodies have a "dam burst" of smothered emotions. Not pleasant in the least.

Similarly, Spark, my dad swears he's never getting married again. Dating only for him after the crap he went through.

[D.Dan]

I actually like the idea of a dating diary!

[PenName]

We (whether it was a parent, spouse, SO, or other person in your life with PD) frequently suffer from something termed abuse amnesia. Basically we just say to ourselves "It wasn't really THAT bad was it?" Or we forget about it entirely. When in reality it was that bad. I strongly advocate recording or noting abuse/red flags to combat the amnesia, and also to help us process the incident in the moment or shortly thereafter instead of letting crap build up for years until our bodies have a "dam burst" of smothered emotions. Not pleasant in the least.

Similarly, Spark, my dad swears he's never getting married again. Dating only for him after the crap he went through.

I also think this is a great idea and have found it VERY helpful...I have kept one on my phone.

My s.o. actually saw it once and interrogated me about it. I mentioned that it was just to recognize patterns in our arguments to try and learn from them and grow (we were having 3-4 hour circular arguments on the regular at the time). Before that, she would also frequently tell me i remembered things incorrectly.

Once she found out, my little notebook would come up in arguments because she very much felt threatened by it. She would yell at me to delete it and said it was basically a cynical thing for me to have.

[NumbLotus]

Yeah, I get that too. We could argue about, say, how long ago a certain conversation we had was. I think it was X, he says Y.

Now, I could have actual documentaion backing up my date, but suddenly having the documentation will itself be a crime in some way.

Why? Because they have to win. They'll burn it all down. If they can't win by saying a fact is wrong, they'll have to win by saying you're wrong for HAVING the fact.

I once had VIDEO EVIDENCE of something and I still lost.

It's a crazy, crazy world.

[PenName]

Hi PenName, I'm going step out of my normal posting area, the pd parents side, to offer a slightly different perspective that I hope will be valuable to you.

I was the anchor child for my UbpdM. Let me offer some back story to that. Neither of my parents could have children, and after trying to adopt for years, my dad saw red flags in my mom and was thinking about leaving her altogether. But then I came along for adoption, the stars aligned, and he felt compelled to stay because he believed it was the right thing to do.

I now believe that the only reason my M wanted a child, specifically a daughter, was to act as an anchor to keep dad in the marriage, and also to act as her retirement plan. I was expected to fill the "dutiful daughter" role and care for in her old age.

When I got married and moved far, far away, that was one dream crushed. When dad divorced her, there went the rest. Her denial and rage, petty desire for revenge, and attempt to alienate me from my dad was all extremely intense. It was a horrible time.

I absolutely believe that at least some BPD individuals do this, want children, to lock their spouse into the relationship. I will not make a blanket statement however, indicating all, as I only have my own experience to speak from.

Now as practical advice, I would encourage you to keep, essentially, a dating journal. When you enter a relationship with someone, don't be in a hurry, everything I've read indicates that disordered individuals try to accelerate a relationship at a ridiculous rate because they can't hide their crazy for long. So in this journal, you would record red flags, and any time you wanted to take a relationship to the next stage, you review those red flags and consider very carefully how you wish to proceed.

Good luck to you.

Thanks a lot, Andeza for your thoughtful response! Sounds like you've gone through a lot. Hope you're well!

[BlackBox]

I realised recently that my husband agreed to our 3rd child (which he'd always been against) as a way to 'keep me at home'.

Just before that, I'd been planning to move into a career which would've kept me away from home / busy with work much more often. When I fell pregnant, that obviously got put on the back burner, & now won't happen at all for me.

To add insult to injury - HE is now planning to move into that same career!

Interestingly, child 3 is the only one who he didn't resent when they were born. 🤔😠

[Dinah-sore]

So, I very much think my concern is valid where there is a potential for control dynamics with a potential PD.
[/quote]

I think that this is the problem you are having, it is because she is PD. You want to protect yourself from the PD. You are afraid of being anchored to a PD person even through children. Maybe consider if this is a person YOU want to spend the rest of your life with? And why you are with her now? What are you getting out of the relationship.

I don't know you and you have every right to love and want to be with who you love. But I don't think it is a good idea to let yourself get tied up with someone who isn't healthy for you. Even IF there is a prenup.

Best wishes, truly.

[1footouttadefog]

I grew up as a fundamental evangelical Christian my theology has changed little. However should I find myself in a position to remarry it will be a covenant marriage only and not a legal marriage.  Inno linger see the need to entangle the marriage and divorse law in my life either and I also see it as a way to screen potential PD people.