I feel horrible saying this but have you ever wished that your PD parent would just pass on and you didn't have to deal with her anymore and she couldn't go on hurting people.
I didn't wish for it, no.
But I WAS looking forward to it, to finally being free of all the issues she brought around and the chaos she created from nothing.
Maybe looking forward to it is a better way of saying it. I have been NC for three months and now she is harrasing my adult nephew.
I didn't wish it but I did look forward to it.
Has turned out to be even better than I imagined it would be. Once their respective Probates etc were sorted out, it has been wonderful. In both cases I chose to help clear their homes. Gave such a sense of closure to me. I am glad I did it rather than ask a firm to do so.
Peace, peace, peace and a bit more peace. For me. Also a sense of them being at peace at last too.
Also I have been able to re-establish loving relationships with other family members which had been disrupted by the parents. This has been an extra gift I never dreamed would happen.
My experience has been that once the PD out of the way, it gives other people chance to connect in a healthy ways and build good relationships.
No PD stirring the pot and creates rifts.
The honest truth? Not just looking forward to, fully wishing.
Im wishing Dad goes when the time is right and hes not ill for years. Hes a nightmare when hes not ill and know it'll be worse.
I just know he'll push it and make me choose between him and my family (it'll be my family) which won't end well.
In anger I have said to my DH, "Why don't they just go to hell? They're already miserable and that will never change, but at least they couldn't hurt us any more." It was at a time when we had to enforce the boundaries yet again. I was sick and tired of it all.
DH said something about the mercy of God and how they still had a chance as long as they were above ground. I shot back, "Well what about God's mercy on ME?!?"
The fruitfulness of such an argument aside, and all theological implications, I think the feeling of just wanting the relief of being free from abuse is absolutely legitimate. Being free of abuse is our right, after all. I'm not homicidal either, but we recognize the reality that as long as certain people are alive and capable, they will be wishing ill against us and even acting to hurt us. In my case I believe maliciously, in others pure selfishness accomplishes pretty much the same thing. It will not change, our only recourses are 1) unassailable boundaries (at times attacked anyway) or 2) the final solution. I'm leaving out the option that DH is wishing for for both my FOO and ILs which is 3) they really do change. I wouldn't trust it so option 1 is a given. It's an unjust situation, and death appears to be the only real way out. We would still have to pick up the pieces of our shattered psyches, but at least we could do it without active interference.
The Old Testament has been a comfort to me. The psalms and wisdom books speak plenty about the death of the wicked being a source of relief and even joy. We're doing most of our grieving before the death in the case of PD parents. The source of the sadness is how they lived. It stands to reason that the world would seem a better place to us when our abusers are no longer in it. Which just points to validate our experience that yes, they really are that bad. I do not think we are horrible people for wishing for peace.
If you're thinking, "I can't wait until they finally die!" all the time though, that can't be healthy for you. Our focus needs to be off the PD and onto our own life.
I think passing from this life will be Nmom's only path to healing. I will be both extraordinarily relieved and supremely sad.
Quote from: Ariel on October 06, 2019, 09:58:58 PM
I feel horrible saying this but have you ever wished that your PD parent would just pass on and you didn't have to deal with her anymore and she couldn't go on hurting people.
Yes I have.
Absolutely yes. I read a psychology article a few years back on another site that articulated my feelings fairly well. I really just want relief from the ridiculous, emotionally needy behavior.
Fortunately I have able to find a similar sense of relief from just very little contact, but there's always that uncertainty around "what will they do next" that just hangs over life like a dark cloud.
Quote from: Amadahy on October 07, 2019, 08:28:26 AM
I think passing from this life will be Nmom's only path to healing. I will be both extraordinarily relieved and supremely sad.
Yep. You said it better than I. I don't wish ill on mother regardless of our history, but like you I don't see how there will be any true healing for her in this life. She seemingly "enjoys" the chaos too much to allow that. I'm already sad that this is the path she chose and has stayed with, come what may. So senseless, such a waste of a life - or lives, I guess I should say when stated for us all.
In the heat of anger, I've said things to DW like "maybe she'll suddenly drop into a diabetic coma or not recover from one of her many mysterious respiratory illnesses," but I am actually dreading that day. I just know the complex grief will be nuts.
I realize that this is probably not a very comforting observation, but it has been my experience that when the personality disordered parent passes away the problems are not over. Yes, the PD person can't harm you themselves anymore and that is a relief. But the personality disordered parent leaves behind a very dysfunctional system they created and continues into the next generation. My experience was that my enabling dad and my PD siblings just picked up where my deceased PD mother left off. In other words, my siblings exhibited the very same abusive behavior that my mother had. They learned from my mother her abusive ways, and now they do the very same abusive things to me.
My emotionally abusive mother passed away five years ago. Before her death, I had been NC with her. After mom died my enabling father asked me to come to a family beach trip and later to the family thanksgiving dinner. Since PD mom had passed away I thought things would now be better. There was no way she could hurt me anymore. I should have stayed NC. When I went to see my family, I realized that nothing had changed. Her abusive behaviors were passed onto the next generation and my siblings and father treated me the same way she did. Once I realized what was going on, I went NC for a second time. But this time, I didn't try to talk to anyone about the problems. I knew from past experience they would just deny the problems and play the victim. So I quietly walked away and stopped accepting my dad's invitations to family events. I wish I could say things had improved after my PD mother's death, but they didn't. The whole system was dysfunctional.
Hopefully your situation is different, and there are some emotionally healthy people in your family. But in my experience, the death of the PD parent doesn't end the problems. Sometimes the golden child steps into the PD parent's role.
Yep, Ariel. 100%. Wish it, look forward to it. If it make you feel any less guilty, I told my T this once and she said, "well, that's just logical. Do you think she's ever going to change or get better?' (I said no ma'am). She said, 'Do you think she's ever going to admit she's wrong, apologize, leave you alone, or stop trying to dump all her emotional garbage on you?' (Nyet). 'So,' wise T says, 'what else would you wish for? What else is going to change the situation?' Wise lady.
For many years I have wished that NF would finally leave this earth. But, he still keeps going even though he is in his upper 80s. I have been NC with him for over 10 years and just knowing that he is alive is sometimes still too much for me. What is to stop him from lashing out before he passes? Nothing.
I am actually looking more forward to the day when PDmil (early 80s) is no longer here since I cannot have NC with her thanks to DH. :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
I just want to finally be rid of the older generation of PDs that seem to have everyone under their thumb. I sincerely believe that DH will be a changed man, no longer having to be at the beck and call of his mother. Perhaps our relationship as husband and wife will be stronger -- as it should have been all this time. It has been an arduous journey having to do the heavy work in our marriage. I just want some relief. *sigh*
Another thing. I think I grieved his "passing" a year or so ago. Hes no longer the person he used to be - I've had to face the fact that I'm NOT going to have a nice last few years with him.
No and err yes.
p123, Unfortunately, he was never the person you thought he was . He hasnt just become a narcissist. But they get worse as they get older, their powers have weakened and as they run out of supply, so its concentrated on you to supply it.
As the Narcissist gets older their reservoir of resentment is deeper (the Narcissist is entitled and see's themselves as the Victim never having received ALL that they "should" have) and the extent of the crimes that they commit that they have never paid any consequence for, only serves to entrench the bad behavior. Family members and friends may choose to go No Contact over the years but the Narcissist is expert at finding new relationships to exploit and nearly 100% continue to exploit other decent humans until the day the Narcissist dies. :no:
Hey Hazy,
Your question made me think of this article last night and I just went back and found it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201405/the-borderline-mother
I remember being blown away when I first read it, as this psychologists point of view is that when he hears a question like yours, he immediately thinks Borderline parent:
It is almost unique to the child of a Borderline to feel a lack of attachment and lack of love for the parent while at the same time blaming themselves for feeling this way...This aspect of the parent-child relationship, where the child lacks loving feelings toward the parent and feels guilty and shameful for doing so, is one of the hallmarks of the borderline parent-child relationship.
Here's probably one of the most important things I've ever read:
Children that fantasize a wish for a parent's death (or simply to be relieved of a toxic relationship) do so because they were emotionally and continually abused, while being made to believe that they were nurtured appropriately.
It's a great article. Hope it helps.
:bighug:
Quote from: Hazy111 on October 08, 2019, 09:27:15 AM
No and err yes.
p123, Unfortunately, he was never the person you thought he was . He hasnt just become a narcissist. But they get worse as they get older, their powers have weakened and as they run out of supply, so its concentrated on you to supply it.
As the Narcissist gets older their reservoir of resentment is deeper (the Narcissist is entitled and see's themselves as the Victim never having received ALL that they "should" have) and the extent of the crimes that they commit that they have never paid any consequence for, only serves to entrench the bad behavior. Family members and friends may choose to go No Contact over the years but the Narcissist is expert at finding new relationships to exploit and nearly 100% continue to exploit other decent humans until the day the Narcissist dies. :no:
Of course. I think thats spot on.
Definitely with hindsight I can see what he was like in the past. BUT as you say he wasn't as bad. I'm aware as I was fully in the fog and completely used to his behaviour.
Looking back I remember him doing something years ago and, at the time, I remember just thinking "That's a bit much" but never connected the dots. Even things when I was a kid that I remember I look back and think "what were you playing at?" So yes hes always been a narc I realise now.
I think only as he worse it forced me to think "hang on now whats going on here". All adds up then and it becomes apparent.
I think as well with Dad, when hes happy, got things to do, no worries, he pretty much leaves me alone. Thats what used to happen. Its only as he got older, got less mobile, got a few illnesses, that it because an issue. Because, as you say, he felt he deserved to be treated a particular way.
Which is why I dread him getting older with "real" illnesses. At the moment, physically, hes pretty good for his age. BUT, even a cold or sore throat, and it all goes off. If he got something like cancer he would pretty much expect 24/7 me on site. I'll be honest, if I gave in to him it would be the end of my marriage and my relationship with my kids.
@Psuedonym - Thanks for posting that link. That was the exact article I was thinking of. For me, that article was one of the most targeted write-ups of this I've ever seen.
@p123 - I completely agree about the grieving part. Obviously I cannot know how I will react to my parents passing but I feel like the last 2-3 years have been a grieving process surrounding the parents I will never have. I don't expect to grieve a great deal when they go, but I guess time will tell. Silver lining? Maybe.
P123 thanks for that link. That was so true. I thought my mom was a narcissist but maybe she is BPD. Anyways she always made me feel like a was never a good person, never a good daughter.
It is good to know that I am not alone. I am not proud of my feelings. Even going 2 months no contact it's still hard. I hope I can repair relationships after she is gone and maybe my family can be honest. My mother has gotten worse as she got older, my eyes have been opened, I am angry and sad. Sad about the family I never had,angry of how I was treated and angry at my dad for enabling her
I range on a spectrum, going from wishing she were better, to wishing she were out of my life, to wishing she were dead, to fantasizing about killing her myself. In my defense, I'm disabled and have to deal with her every day.
Quote
If you're thinking, "I can't wait until they finally die!" all the time though, that can't be healthy for you. Our focus needs to be off the PD and onto our own life.
There was a time when I thought her death would be the only escape for me. But T. pointed out that if my only strategy = trying to outlast her, then when she *did* die I'd be in the exact same place mentally as I am now, and would continue to live my life within the exact same invisible boundaries that my parents set for me. And that's one of my biggest fears - to be forever in thrall to the parents in my mind, long after their physical forms have passed away.
So I'm focusing on my own life, trying to identify and remedy those deficiencies my parents beat into me, and attain those developmental stages I never hit. That way I can get a head start on living, without having to wait for someone to die.
A couple of years ago, I posted that I will be relieved when my parents die. I've been NC for 13 years. I never plan to see them, but I will still feel a sense of relief when they die.
The moderators removed my post, and sent me an e-mail that it is inappropriate to wish someone dead.
Quote from: mazenavigator on October 08, 2019, 11:46:02 AM
@Psuedonym - Thanks for posting that link. That was the exact article I was thinking of. For me, that article was one of the most targeted write-ups of this I've ever seen.
@p123 - I completely agree about the grieving part. Obviously I cannot know how I will react to my parents passing but I feel like the last 2-3 years have been a grieving process surrounding the parents I will never have. I don't expect to grieve a great deal when they go, but I guess time will tell. Silver lining? Maybe.
maze - no at the moment I think the same to be honest...
@Psuedonym I was actually thinking of my narc father. Yes interesting article. My mother passed away many years ago. I believe she was suffering from BPD (hermit type), after i read "Understanding the Borderline Mother." I was a combination of the Golden/Lost child. So my abuse was different to that received by my sis, the Bad child, who i now believe to be BPD as a result.
@p123. i remember my father telling me when he was in the army, he was promoted to corporal a couple of times and was demoted for insolence, back to the ranks. An officer told him he could make Sargent, if it wasnt for his "attitude, lack of respect towards others" Hmmmm. :roll:
Quote from: Hazy111 on October 09, 2019, 10:00:05 AM
@Psuedonym I was actually thinking of my narc father. Yes interesting article. My mother passed away many years ago. I believe she was suffering from BPD (hermit type), after i read "Understanding the Borderline Mother." I was a combination of the Golden/Lost child. So my abuse was different to that received by my sis, the Bad child, who i now believe to be BPD as a result.
@p123. i remember my father telling me when he was in the army, he was promoted to corporal a couple of times and was demoted for insolence, back to the ranks. An officer told him he could make Sargent, if it wasnt for his "attitude, lack of respect towards others" Hmmmm. :roll:
Ha ha wish someone had told dad he had a bad attitude years ago! No-one has ever told him. I see a long line of people (friends, work colleagues, family) who hes got his claws into, got them to do something for him, taken advantage, then they've distanced themselves from him. Of course, he doesn't even see this at all.
Oh yes, gentle soul. Not only did it change the way I felt, it changed my entire family. I have no children, but I have three sisters and five nieces/nephew plus great nieces/nephew. Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays -all previously times of great tension and stress- overnight have become times of incredible fun and joy! We laugh hysterically, have great food (without emotional blackmail over what we are or aren't eating), enjoy each other's company and just have a great real family time! It was amazing!!!
Didn't wish it, particularly, but when it happened, it was such a change, well, for the better for the family!
Tommom, that someone's death should make room for joy is itself incredibly sad. But when I started EMDR, I was no contact and the therapist asked me what I was hoping to achieve in therapy. My answer was exactly that, to make room for joy. To be able and free to experience real family love. That's been shown to be impossible with my particular pwPD's in the mix. I'm so glad for you the rest of your FOO has been able to pick up the pieces and remain together.
I understand that you could say that.
NF died, NM took over. I don't wish her harm but...... I am waiting. I am nc with my sister which I miss. She doesn't have the strength and capacity to go nc with NM, was parentified when I left home. It was NM who strained our relationship, triangulation. Then again she has fleas but with the knowledge I acquired, I would be able handle them.
Quote: Anyways she always made me feel like a was never a good person, never a good daughter.
Same here. I never loved her. She liked to provoke and used sarcasm, a lot. :barfy:
I always thought of it in terms of the Grateful Dead's "Hell in a Bucket"
There may come a day I will dance on your grave
If unable to dance I will crawl cross it
If unable to dance I will crawl cross it
If unable to dance I will crawl
UnBPD Didi wished herself dead for so long, that my wish she'd die was only echoing her own.
I haven't danced on her grave - in this case, a mausoleum - nor have I visited it, but I did do a happy dance around the house when I was told she was gone.
With unNPD Ray, there's nothing. I'm NC, his carefully elaborate plans were dismantled by me, and he's not even having a funeral - he's going from the nursing home to the embalming table, to the mausoleum, and that's that.
I'll be the last one left, singing, "I may be going to hell in a bucket baby, but at least I'm enjoying the ride..." 8-)
BTW - if you listen to the words, it sounds like Bob Weir is talking about somebody with a PD, so it's VERY fitting.
My feeling is that if somebody has done enough damage to you that you wish them dead, it's not a reflection on you - it's a reflection on THEM.
:hug:
Good point, WI, as usual.
I think another part of it is that, not only do they live in a grim, pessimistic reality, but they INSIST that you live in that reality with them.
Case in point, it has been reiterated to Negatron dozens of times, if she wants to have any contact with me ever again she needs to a) own up to her own behavior, b) seek professional help, and c) change her behavior. Not that hard. She could have at any time:
a) said yes she will attempt to do these things (even faking an attempt would have gotten her somewhere)
b) tried to make positive improvements in her life
c) accepted the fact that I'm not speaking to her
Instead, she has spent all of her time and energy INSISTING that I accept her version of reality: that she is 'the greatest mother in the world (TM), and that she has done nothing wrong. She has spent 10 months on a smear campaign of me and making up excuses that I HAVE to do things for her. It's sort of frightening, really. In a different relationship this would be someone who be a stalker, unable to let go of a failed relationship.
Living with the knowledge that someone is saying nasty things about you while insisting you deny reality and accept the lie they are selling, and that they'll never, ever change (or possibly stop with the smear campagin) is disturbing, to say the least. There's really only one thing that's going to change that, and I don't think its at all unreasonable or wrong to hope that change comes sooner rather than later.
:bighug:
I have been censored here saying exactly that. Although not as nice. I get it.
Yes - for 20 years I have watched people grieve over a parent the way people that don't like animals watch us who LOVE our pets do. I was told such cruel stupid things about losing my cat - well it could have been your parent.. Not allowed to say. Yes please.
I have known for 2 decades that I will be neutral. I don't wish for it but my real emotional attachments are not them. Have not been for a decade
Right, sunshine. One moment of near-hilarity came at my PDm's memorial. (She was very covert) when her minister was going on and on and on about how wonderful she was (he really only had ever seen that side). how loving and kind. and my sister turned to - I thought- put her head on my shoulder. Instead she whispered in my ear: "Are we sure they are burying mother?"
Not sure that I'd say wishing, but I am extremely prepared.
I feel like I've spent an awful lot of time and energy on my mother's business and issues already, and when she goes, I want the aftermath to go as smoothly and quickly as possible. I am POA, so I was able to plan and prepay her funeral. I also put together a Death Binder with funeral info, phone numbers, acccounts, ideas on how to handle emptying her room in Assisted Living, etc. Anything I could think of, really. As soon as it happens, I'm all set to start making phone calls of all sorts to notify people and businesses. (I'm due to be executor.)
Making the binder was very satisfying. I highly recommend it. Makes you feel a little bit more in control of your own life.
I will be honest, I have often thought we'd all be better off if my father had died instead of my mother.
And I have often thought things would be better if they both died, even when my my mother was alive.
I feel like there is a small chance of the siblings having some semblance of a relationship once my father is no longer here to manipulate and stir up trouble.
My father will never change. If anything he gets worse with age. It's hard to see a way out of the abuse. It seems like it would be easier to heal knowing they really couldn't do any more damage.
I guess maybe I think it less intensely since I started therapy and have some tools to deal with it all, but I think these thoughts are probably very common but too hard to admit.
My late sister, who died last year, told me that she had a dream about both of our narcissistic parents dying in a car crash and in the dream neither of us were upset or mourning. She was telling me that it would not upset her if that actually happened. Our parents caused us so much pain including triangulating my sister and I and her daughter and her (not to mention other people as well) and then did everything they could to try to break us up after we reunited. We both went no contact with them and it stayed that way until my sister died. It will stay that way until they die or I die.
I will not mourn their deaths because I have already mourned not having parents. They are complete strangers to me who are not happy unless they destroy others including those I love. If you want my complete honesty, I wish it was them instead of my dear sister who passed on. She was loving and they are not. They don't do anything good unless it's for an evil reason.
My therapist has narcissistic parents too and she has told me to NEVER feel bad about wishing them gone. I think it's normal when parents who should have cared for, loved, and accepted you did none of those things and instead you, the child, had to take care of them. My sister's death really brought up even more issues for me as she was the only one in that household who understood what we went through. We both knew what they were and what they are capable of and so it's hard to see them still around causing pain and anguish for others.
I just want to say it's so validating to hear everyone's responses on this and I'm thankful someone started this thread! These topics need to be discussed within a group of fellow abuse survivors. No one else would understand. No one without a pd parent could possibly get this.
Quote from: mazenavigator on October 08, 2019, 11:46:02 AM
@Psuedonym - Thanks for posting that link. That was the exact article I was thinking of. For me, that article was one of the most targeted write-ups of this I've ever seen.
@p123 - I completely agree about the grieving part. Obviously I cannot know how I will react to my parents passing but I feel like the last 2-3 years have been a grieving process surrounding the parents I will never have. I don't expect to grieve a great deal when they go, but I guess time will tell. Silver lining? Maybe.
Me neither. I've been angry and sad for years. Hes not treated me well for years.
Yes!! I wouldn't say I wish for it but I do feel like it would be a relief and I wouldn't be sad if my NDad passed away. I would love to not have to hear about him talking badly and spreading lies about me ever again or to not have to worry if today is the day he's going to show up on my doorstep or he'll try to contact me or my daughter.
I have been a long-time reader and lurker on this forum, it's helped me a lot just knowing that I'm not the only one out there with a parent who seems to get off on causing their own son or daughter pain (because it really feels like I'm the only one sometimes...I don't know anyone (personally) who has parents like I do)
Quote from: Adrianna on October 14, 2019, 05:05:46 AM
I just want to say it's so validating to hear everyone's responses on this and I'm thankful someone started this thread! These topics need to be discussed within a group of fellow abuse survivors. No one else would understand. No one without a pd parent could possibly get this.
I'm also thankful this thread exists...
There are some days I really wish she was gone to finally have some peace.
Thanks for sharing your stories and thoughts. We are not alone!
I mentioned this thread to my friend and mentor who has held my hand Out of the FOG, and we both agreed how important it is to be able to have a safe space to express these emotions.
Normal people and the society they reside in, doesn't permit these honest discussions regarding the trauma felt as a result of a lifetime of abuse and tragedy.
Im grateful the moderators are allowing us to share here. Its truly makes me feel peace (if thats even possible with the situations being as they are) to know that the thoughts I try to push away, becuase I have heart and am NOT a sociopath, are common amongst those of us who live with this every minute of every day since we have been alive.
Totally agree with alphaomega and wanted to say I feel really bad for the members who tried to bring this topic up before and got shamed for it. I can see making a decision on subject matter but nobody here should be telling anybody else how they should feel. I'm sorry that happened. As has been discussed here, a) feelings are never right or wrong and b) this is such a commonly held belief that it's actually considered an indicator that someone's grown up with a PD.
I was reading a book called 'The Narcissistic Family' (recommended by someone here). It's interesting in that it's not a self-help book but one written for therapists by other therapists. The beginning talks about the authors seeing patients that puzzled them. They displayed all the signs of being the children of alcoholics/drug addicts, but they couldn't find the source of the problem. He points out that these patients universally thought that THEY were the problem. Eventually he comes to understand that these are people who grew up in narcissistic families (not the disorder but the way the family functioned). What I found fascinating was the therapists' perspective here. Patients would come in and say that that their childhoods weren't that bad or describe why something was fundamentally wrong with them, but what they said wasn't really that important, because the therapist could see the damage that had been done to these people in their views about themselves and the world and in their behavior. They could see the affect and knew there was a cause behind it. This thread is really an example of that damage showing itself: if you have the (probably secret) wish that your parent would just disappear, that doesn't say anything about your character, but it does say something about the environment you grew up in and the abuse you must have experienced.
:bighug:
Quote from: alphaomega on October 17, 2019, 08:37:38 AM
I mentioned this thread to my friend and mentor who has held my hand Out of the FOG, and we both agreed how important it is to be able to have a safe space to express these emotions.
Normal people and the society they reside in, doesn't permit these honest discussions regarding the trauma felt as a result of a lifetime of abuse and tragedy.
Im grateful the moderators are allowing us to share here. Its truly makes me feel peace (if thats even possible with the situations being as they are) to know that the thoughts I try to push away, becuase I have heart and am NOT a sociopath, are common amongst those of us who live with this every minute of every day since we have been alive.
Agreed. NOTHING in this world winds me up more than when people say "you'll be sorry when hes gone". As if its an excuse that you've got to allow them to treat you like crap because they're old.
I am so glad for all the posts here. Makes me feel I am not alone. I would never be able to express this feeling to anyone else. It's really about ending all the lies, hurt, accusations, chaos and guilt. I know she won't change so I don't see how else it will end. Sad thing is my sister will pickup where she left off. It's such a blessing not to be alone. It's hard for others to understand what we went, go through and why we took it.i see other people loving their Pat and them loving them back and I am so envious.yeah I was raised in a toxic family and I am still questioning whether what she says is abusive , when it is. Thanks for the support ♥️
Quote from: Psuedonym on October 17, 2019, 10:00:18 AM
This thread is really an example of that damage showing itself: if you have the (probably secret) wish that your parent would just disappear, that doesn't say anything about your character, but it does say something about the environment you grew up in and the abuse you must have experienced.
:bighug:
YES!
Quote from: Pepin on October 18, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
Quote from: Psuedonym on October 17, 2019, 10:00:18 AM
This thread is really an example of that damage showing itself: if you have the (probably secret) wish that your parent would just disappear, that doesn't say anything about your character, but it does say something about the environment you grew up in and the abuse you must have experienced.
:bighug:
YES!
Thank you for this thread and for the wise words.
@P123, as well as "you'll be sorry when they're gone" from innocent bystanders, do you also get (because I often do) "you'll be sorry when
I'm gone!" from your pd parent. Hmmm, will I really? Yes I probably will, due in part to abuse amnesia no doubt.
My uPDm just passed away a few weeks ago, and I am filled with joy and elation. It's a relief to be able to admit this here, because I find myself having to do a lot of faking grief in public. I'm so tired of being fake.
Quote from: MyLifeToo on October 18, 2019, 12:07:04 PM
Quote from: Pepin on October 18, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
Quote from: Psuedonym on October 17, 2019, 10:00:18 AM
This thread is really an example of that damage showing itself: if you have the (probably secret) wish that your parent would just disappear, that doesn't say anything about your character, but it does say something about the environment you grew up in and the abuse you must have experienced.
:bighug:
oh yes this is the ultimate guilt trip card he sometimes plays...
YES!
Thank you for this thread and for the wise words.
@P123, as well as "you'll be sorry when they're gone" from innocent bystanders, do you also get (because I often do) "you'll be sorry when I'm gone!" from your pd parent. Hmmm, will I really? Yes I probably will, due in part to abuse amnesia no doubt.
Biggerfish, I'm sorry you can't be quite authentic in your life right now. Although I can certainly understand why you would feel that need. Brave of you to admit you're feeling joy and elation, even in here. Being raised by PDs can feel lonely, even when the feelings are positive, because they are not the "right" or "normal" feelings. Wishing you peace.
Quote from: biggerfish on October 18, 2019, 04:00:11 PM
My uPDm just passed away a few weeks ago, and I am filled with joy and elation. It's a relief to be able to admit this here, because I find myself having to do a lot of faking grief in public. I'm so tired of being fake.
I'm so happy you're filled with joy and elation. Good for you! I understand the need to fake grieving in public.
I would imagine many of us will have to do the same. But thankfully, none of us have to do it here! :grouphug:
I found out a few minutes ago that my former FIL just died (yesterday or early this morning). I disliked him greatly; I think he was a bitter, unhappy person much of his life, and I think he made other people's lives difficult. But I still feel some sorrow, for my ex-husband, for the unfulfilled possibilities that my former FIL's life represented, for all the family members who have to get their own minds around what this person meant to them.
Edited to add: Darn it, now I'm crying. Really, I'm not sorry for the deceased; I am sorry for my ex-husband, because of the sacrifices he made for his dad; I'm sorry for us, because his dad contributed to breaking up our marriage; I'm sorry for our children, who deserved a loving grandfather. Sigh.
Poison Ivy
I am sorry for the loss of your marriage and the damage your fil did to your marriage. It is not fair the damage they cause. You and your ex husband deserved better than this. :grouphug:
Thank you, gettingstronger1. I feel fortunate that our children turned out so well, despite having a cranky grandpa and moderately messed-up parents. I guess my ex and I didn't do everything wrong.
I went NC with my Nparents six years ago and ever since my NM has used every trick in the PD hoovering handbook to make me suffer. She's also used my enabling father as bait, leaving messages or getting flying monkeys to call round saying he's dying. So when he finally did pass away this spring, it was no surprise. What was a surprise, was that I had no feelings...at all. I felt completely numb. It was as if I'd grieved his death many times already. Despite the fact endad had been NM's willing accomplice, I'd always hoped he would outlive her. As for NM, I heartily wish she now follows his lead quickly, because I never feel safe from her nasty tricks and I know that as long as she lives, she will wish me ill and do everything in her power to cause me and my FOC as much pain as she can.
I'm sure that my ex-husband will feel some strong emotions now that his dad has died, but I'm relieved for him. His dad often was not nice, and he made my ex's life difficult, sometimes intentionally, sometimes by the burdens he imposed. I was concerned that the stresses of caregiving might cause my ex to die before his parents, and that possibility really distressed me.
After spending an excruciatingly long afternoon listening to my uNPDmother go on and on about all the terrible things people do to her, me included. A bunch of :mad: :bawl: :dramaqueen: All the woe is me, fake tears and blathering on about herself, I was reminded of this topic. :evil2:
When my former MiL passed away the first thing I thought was how glad I was no longer married to her son. I was so grateful I wouldn't be subjected to how he would deal with his feelings (taking them out on me).
His family, his mother in particular caused so many issues in our marriage.
I wasn't happy she died, but I wasn't sad. I didn't really feel anything.
I do think it's really sad that when someone does the most one can think is "at least they can't hurt anyone any more"
I did actually see my ex a month or so after his mother died. He was a mess and even though we were long divorced he tried to draw me into one of those "I know you hated my mother" fights. I didn't hate her and my ex was spoiling for a fight.
Everyday, and I'm not afraid to say it either, for me I would only mourn the passing of a good parent.
They don't deserve our tears we have all cried enough 😢x
If I'm honest and literally every single day.
I did wish for it, though I always felt that my Nmother would outlive me. I truly believed she was so evil that nothing could kill her. I was shocked when she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She died five years ago, and like biggerfish, I was also elated.
But but but .... THIS
Quote from: gettingstronger1 on October 07, 2019, 02:18:13 PM
I realize that this is probably not a very comforting observation, but it has been my experience that when the personality disordered parent passes away the problems are not over. Yes, the PD person can't harm you themselves anymore and that is a relief. But the personality disordered parent leaves behind a very dysfunctional system they created and continues into the next generation. My experience was that my enabling dad and my PD siblings just picked up where my deceased PD mother left off. In other words, my siblings exhibited the very same abusive behavior that my mother had. They learned from my mother her abusive ways, and now they do the very same abusive things to me.
That's
exactly what happened to me after Nmother passed. Her death was such a relief to me, though in many ways it made things worse. I thought I would be able to reconnect with my siblings after her death, but instead they took her place and turned against me.
My sister has already turned against me. It's sad because there was a time when we were on the same page but I don't know what happened and she turned on me and makes up lies about me and twists my words
I believe my mom helped that since she hated that we stuck together. My father has dementia so it's only my sister's children. Right now I y close with one son but I know my mother is working that. I've already grieved my mom and sister. I have no idea what o will feel when she passes. Probably just sad that we couldn't have the mother, daughter relationship I longed for.
'Guilty' as charged.
One of my unPD parents had a close call several years ago, and my first thought was, "Is this finally going to be over?" When I found out they would recover I was actually relieved, but if it weren't for my continuing recovery, these ambivalent feelings would have upset me a lot more.
It truly is an understandable thought, and it's really the desire for the abuse and the pain to end. That's it.
I do see, though, that my work now is to get my introjected parents out of my head. The real ones will die some day, but if I don't find contentment inside myself, I still will not be free. As one Family Systems guy was saying in a video I watched on YouTube, you may say you want to get out of your family, but you need to get your family out of you.
DoQ
I know what it feels like to wish that my PD father is dead.
It's not that I wish him harm. I wish that he could no longer be able to harm me. I wish for peace -- the knowledge that it is finally over.
My ex husband was an extreme PD. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia at the end of our marriage. I have made many, many posts about him years ago as I was still working my way Out of the FOG.
He was murdered by someone after I had been NC with him for over a year. His sister contacted me to invite me to the funeral. I didn't go to the service but I did go to see his body. I was technically still married to him at the time of his death so I identified him. I saw his dead body lying on a stainless steel table. I saw where the bullet had entered and exited his head.
Initially, I was so sad. Sad that he never became a healthier person. Sad that his children (from a previous marriage) would grow up fatherless. Sad for everything that I went through with him.
After the initial shock and sadness wore off, I felt free. He can finally no longer hurt me. He can never hurt anyone else, either.
I am glad that he is dead. The world is a better place without him.
When my PD father passes, I will probably feel similarly.
It feels amazing to actually admit these feelings. Thank you.
I used to think some evenings - well that's one day fewer, one day nearer
I still think that, FlowerPot. You took the words right out of my head.
It has been two weeks since my ex-husband's dad died. I hadn't seen former FIL in years. I feel both freer and sadder than I did when he was alive. He did and said things that were very hurtful. That he can no longer do those things is freeing. That he spent much of his life choosing to do things that alienated his children and grandchildren and other people continues to cause me sadness.
Quote from: Ariel on October 06, 2019, 09:58:58 PM
I feel horrible saying this but have you ever wished that your PD parent would just pass on and you didn't have to deal with her anymore and she couldn't go on hurting people.
Yes, yes, and yes. Thank you for being brave enough to post this, it's a taboo topic but something I think we probably all consider at some point.
Though I've been no contact a solid while now and generally feel more secure than I did at the beginning, there's still the dread of NF making random visits to dump stuff on my doorstep, unwanted birthday cards and bumping into him in public. I'm not sure I actively wish death upon him (though admittedly there have been very stressful moments where I have) but to not have him exist anymore would give me some freedom back. It would be so good to not automatically scan the number plates of cars passing me which are the same make and model as his, or to have to scan the CCTV camera every time the doorbell rings in case it's him. I feel like I'm constantly looking over my shoulder in case I'm ambushed.
I think the next best thing would be if he had to stop driving. His wife doesn't drive, so he would be reliant on a very hit or miss rural bus service if he wanted to try coming to my town. He's early 70s with a fair few health conditions including diabetes which can affect the eyes, so I can see him giving up his licence sooner rather than later. I fully expect love bombing and a renewed interest in trying to force contact when this happens, since I'm the nearest adult child. Hopefully I'll have moved further away by then!
After todays discussion where hes telling me "he'll have to go into a home if theres no one to help him" I'm thinking "please don't ever be really ill and drag out for a decade".
Theres not a lot wrong with him - apart from being old and yet he cranks it up to the max as it is.
I had posted earlier that I totally wished for my Nmother to die and was elated when she finally passed. No regrets there, though I want to add that I don't wish the same on my enFather.
In many ways my father was just as rotten as Nmother was for sitting back and allowing her abuse to happen. He also did some horrible things to me, but I still make excuses for him. Tomorrow he turns 89 so I know he won't be around much longer. I imagine one day I'll just get an email saying he's gone.
Perhaps there's some part of me that thinks he'll do what she was incapable of ... feeling remorse and reaching out to apologize. Of course that's a fantasy, enough so that I feel NC with him is permanent, but it's still hard to let go of that fantasy. When I was a little girl I always believed he loved me and I still want to believe it. I'm not in a hurry for him to die because I feel as long as he's alive he can still make things right. I know he never will, but I guess I need still to believe he cares until he finally dies and proves me wrong.
Just Kathy, my father was an enabler too. I always thought he was the perfect parent but now realized he allowed it to happen and made us aplogize for hurting my mom, although we did nothing wrong. Unfortunately, he can't accept responsibility since he had dementia. Funny I thought of he survived her and had his brain intact that he would take responsibility. Maybe I was wrong. Although I am frustrated by not being able to talk to him about this. He probably does care for you but probably feels guilty for what happened. I am sorry. This truly does suck and I am sad that you had to experience this
Quote from: Ariel on November 03, 2019, 09:49:13 PM
Just Kathy, my father was an enabler too. I always thought he was the perfect parent but now realized he allowed it to happen and made us aplogize for hurting my mom, although we did nothing wrong. Unfortunately, he can't accept responsibility since he had dementia. Funny I thought of he survived her and had his brain intact that he would take responsibility. Maybe I was wrong.
Ariel, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this feeling of not knowing. I can understand the frustration of being in that situation. My enFather still appears to be very sharp, but even if he wanted to I don't think he'd be able to articulate his true feelings. The sad truth about enabling fathers is that their loyalty runs so deep they will remain loyal to their PD wife long after she's passed. One therapist told me they're unwilling/unable to undo any harm their wife caused or go against her wishes because they see it as a betrayal. Truthfully, there are days when I wish my father actually had dementia or Alzheimer's so I could use it as another excuse for his behavior.
When my spouse and I were young newlyweds, he began to figure out my Nmom had some issues and was studying the minefield of my relationship with her. It's like he was blindfolded (my family's denial) and let loose in a dog kennel but told not to step in the steaming piles...being raised in a stable family he was clueless greenhorn.
He was quizzing me one day and I said "look, here is how things will end up: Out of all four parents, we will lose the three and have her left to deal with" and by gosh, that's exactly what happened.
We've been no contact. I don't wish for her death, almost feel as if I've already dealt with it in some ways. I probably won't know when it happens, but will still have feelings about it and still grieve I guess, the way things couldn't/didn't work out.
I have been praying for my PD parent's death. I think my logic goes something like this - If God exists, he allowed this person to exist and he allowed things to get this bad. Now he is the only person who can clean it up and he is the only person who can deal will him. My dad tried to kill himself a while back, and when I found out he failed, I felt a pang of profound disappointment. I knew this was taboo, but I think it makes sense when you can't see any other exit from the nightmare. My husband has said don't wish him dead. When I asked why he said I just don't want you to regret saying that later when he really is dead. I think it is very freeing to acknowledge these feelings. They come out of powerlessness and hopelessness. Feeling there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
I hesitated for many days before deciding that I should post this.
I have long dreamed of the day that my mother is no longer alive. I used to feel guilty but thanks to a lot of work in therapy I don't any more.
I've also composed numerous eulogies in my journal. Some brutally speak the horrifying truth and others are the far more subtle messages that speak only by what is omitted. I find these exercises very therapeutic.
I also compose what I will say to those who offer me condolences. In one version I speak the truth. In the other I focus on the fact that no one really wants to know the truth. These people knew a very different person and fortunately will never know her for the monster I saw. They are offering kindness and I am gracious in my acceptance of their sympathy. I'd like this to be my response when the time actually comes.
Thank you Ariel for starting this discussion and to all who have contributed. There is so much wisdom here. We are never alone and my fervent wish is that all of us may find our strength together.
Big, safe hugs to those who want them. :grouphug:
Such powerful stories and feelings ❤️.Thank you all for sharing, knowing we are not alone. I really want the pain and chaos to disappear and hoped .my family could finally talk honest about my mother and her triangulation and abusive behavior. I feel that no one trusts the other not to report back to my mom. I had hoped that when my mom passed that we could reconnect but I now think that is somewhat impossible because my sister is seriously disorded, narcissist. I am NC now. Actually hoping that I will be able to heal myself and connect before she died. However, I am sure that she has discarded me already
QuoteI had hoped that when my mom passed that we could reconnect but I now think that is somewhat impossible because my sister is seriously disorded, narcissist.
Ariel, that was also my hope. There always seemed to be tension between my sister and Nmother and I really did believe that once Nmother was dead, we'd be able to have a normal relationship. Unfortunately, it became obvious that my sister had turned into my mother and is definitely disordered. On top of it, she fell for Nmother's smear campaign. I've had to accept that my sister is gone and not coming back, which at this point is okay with me. She's become such a monster I no longer recognize her and no longer desire the sisterly relationship I had once hoped for.
Quote from: Feral Child on December 27, 1974, 08:33:39 AM
I've also composed numerous eulogies in my journal. Some brutally speak the horrifying truth and others are the far more subtle messages that speak only by what is omitted.
I had only one phrase in mind, and it was of the far more subtle variety: I imagined her headstone would read "She liked Waverly Crackers."
Answer:
Yes
Reflecting on other posts:
I, too, wondered who the eulogy was referring to at my NFs funeral...I had never met the person they were describing. :stars:
BPDm has already written and submitted her own eulogy to the funeral director, including the wording on her headstone and the announcement for the local paper. Gotta give her credit for not leaving that up to my discretion. :bigwink:
~J
I don't actively wish for it; I just pretend it's already happened, or imagine that they are living on another planet far, far away.
QuoteI, too, wondered who the eulogy was referring to at my NFs funeral...I had never met the person they were describing.
I was lucky enough to have been spared any of that. One thing I discovered after my Nmother's death was that she wasn't as convincing as I had thought. In the end, she didn't have enough friends or family left for a funeral. I'm sure she had dreamt of an over-the-top service with hundreds of mourners eulogizing her greatness, but she made a last-minute change and asked to cremated and scattered at sea. From what I can glean, she more or less died alone with two of her three children being NC. She probably changed her funeral plans at the last minute to spare herself any humiliation. She decided to go out being portrayed as an environmentalist even though she hadn't been to the beach in 40 years.
I hate to admit that the image of my enFather cremating her the next day and tossing her in the ocean was very pleasing to me. No memorial of any kind and no one went with him. Seemed akin to throwing out the trash. I know that thought shouldn't make me smile, but it does. She went out like Donnie in "The Big Lebowski," but without the caring friends. ;D
JustKathy
I am sorry I didn't respond to your post sooner. I didn't see it until today.
Quote from: Just KathyBut but but .... THIS
Quote from: gettingstronger1 on October 07, 2019, 03:18:13 PM
I realize that this is probably not a very comforting observation, but it has been my experience that when the personality disordered parent passes away the problems are not over. Yes, the PD person can't harm you themselves anymore and that is a relief. But the personality disordered parent leaves behind a very dysfunctional system they created and continues into the next generation. My experience was that my enabling dad and my PD siblings just picked up where my deceased PD mother left off. In other words, my siblings exhibited the very same abusive behavior that my mother had. They learned from my mother her abusive ways, and now they do the very same abusive things to me.
That's exactly what happened to me after Nmother passed. Her death was such a relief to me, though in many ways it made things worse. I thought I would be able to reconnect with my siblings after her death, but instead they took her place and turned against me.
I wanted to let you know that I am sorry to hear that your siblings adopted the same dysfunctional behaviors as your mother. I am sorry they were hurtful to you. I can relate to your hurt and pain that your siblings caused. Basically its family mobbing and it's extremely painful. Dysfunctional parents often create a disordered family system that they can control. Your siblings probably have no idea how much they were controlled. The best thing to remember is that your family's treatment of you is not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. I too had also hoped things would get better after my SPD mother passed, but unfortunately they didn't. I had to remove myself from an emotionally unhealthy situation for a second time. :stars:
Quote from: gettingstronger1 on November 22, 2019, 03:44:48 PM
I wanted to let you know that I am sorry to hear that your siblings adopted the same dysfunctional behaviors as your mother. I am sorry they were hurtful to you. I can relate to your hurt and pain that your siblings caused. Basically its family mobbing and it's extremely painful.
Thank you, gettingstronger. It's the one thing I never expected, though in hindsight, I shouldn't be surprised. My sister had been controlled by our mother her entire life, but when Nmother was dying she disinherited myself and our GC brother and put my sister in the GC role, making her sole heir and giving her power over our enFather. After 50 years of being the quiet downtrodden sibling, she was suddenly the queen bee and assumed the personality to go along with it. It's just crazy how fast it happened. There were no warning signs that she was heading in that direction. Once she was crowned GC, boom, instant transformation.
Quote from: Feral Child on November 15, 2019, 10:36:32 AM
I hesitated for many days before deciding that I should post this.
I have long dreamed of the day that my mother is no longer alive. I used to feel guilty but thanks to a lot of work in therapy I don't any more.
I've also composed numerous eulogies in my journal. Some brutally speak the horrifying truth and others are the far more subtle messages that speak only by what is omitted. I find these exercises very therapeutic.
I also compose what I will say to those who offer me condolences. In one version I speak the truth. In the other I focus on the fact that no one really wants to know the truth. These people knew a very different person and fortunately will never know her for the monster I saw. They are offering kindness and I am gracious in my acceptance of their sympathy. I'd like this to be my response when the time actually comes.
Thank you Ariel for starting this discussion and to all who have contributed. There is so much wisdom here. We are never alone and my fervent wish is that all of us may find our strength together.
Big, safe hugs to those who want them. :grouphug:
It is good to know that so many have been there themselves and can offer support to others - thank you for the hug!
I managed to keep a "grateful face" when offered condolences, kept the chat short etc etc and yes, accept that they saw a different person - I took strength in knowing the my nearest and dearest knew the truth.
The eulogy and announcements were short, factual and no fluff.
Yes. I think it's normal when you're enmeshed in the FOG. Death truly is peaceful compared to all that.
And the farther I get out of their FOG, the more joy, life, and peace I find, and the more joy, life, and peace I wish them as well.
Take care of yourself, friend.
Hi Ariel
Yes, I wish it and dread it at the same time. Both my parents are Ns, and I don't know how I'm still alive quite frankly. It was like living with terrorists. No one who treats a little child with such contempt is worthy of that child's love. For a very long time I could say I have not loved my parents but I know I can still love because I have my own beautiful family and lovely friends who love me and I would not be where I am without them. Just because they are our flesh and blood does not mean we have to love them or even like them. The pain they cause is the impetus for wanting them gone, erased from our mind and nonexistent. Don't feel guilty for wanting them gone. They did not deserve you as their child, therefore they are invalidated.
Dotti x
I felt like this since i was 11 years old; 21 years of it.
Ariel, and everyone who has replied, THANK YOU! This has been a relief to read and re-read.
For about a decade, I wondered how I would react to hearing Ndad had died. However, I wouldn't let myself go too far down that thought trail because I feared my own thoughts and feared guilt from those thoughts. In late October this year, I got a message from a cousin that Ndad had driven himself to the hospital due to feeling short of breath. This was on the heals of a couple of weeks of his ramped up stalking that got no reaction. My immediate reaction was relief, and my first thought was "oh good, if he's in the hospital, I can go in the front room of our house without worrying about him showing up in the window." Like many have said, I don't wish him harm, but now I can acknowledge I'll be glad when he's gone. Like Blue's Cruise said, no more looking over my shoulder, no more random stuff left on my porch, no more hate-filled letters, no more creepy drive bys... I'll probably have a party in the front yard to mark his passing; reclaim my physical space as well as my head space.
Yes, yes, and YES. Unfortunately I won't rest until he's dead and I've finished dealing with his crazy family even after he's dead! It sounds terrible but it's unfortunately true.