I have 3 children - the oldest is 19. Over a year ago, he had a full blown panic attack and was curled up on the floor, saying he couldn't go back to my BPDx's house - he couldn't take it anymore. He did this in front of my dad and my dad called me to let me know what was going on. Later that same evening we had a switch in parenting time and he was supposed to go back. I made some calls to friends to get some feedback and in the end, I told him he could stay at my house. In classic fashion, the cops showed up - she was waiting on the street to take him home. The cops asked him what he wanted to do - he said he wanted to stay at my house and that was what he did. He lived with me for the rest of the school year and stayed until he was ready to move out in August and get an apartment on his own. Not long before this incident, i found out from my younger son that the cops were called (by him) because my BPDx and current husband were holding our oldest son down on the floor trying to take his keys so he couldn't leave. Middle son left the house and called the cops from the neighbors - I had to get a copy of the police report to verify if this was true, and it was - it was all in the report. Somehow my BPDx forgot to tell me this happened :doh:
All of this was in the past and the only reason I mention it now is it seems like now, a year later, he is reluctant to come over to my house and spends a considerable amount of time at his mom's, even spending the night over there. He comes in to town and I hardly hear anything from him. It seems kind of petty on my part to be up in arms about this, but I just don't get it. He has seemed distant and I have been going back and forth about whether or not to talk to him about it. I don't even really know what I would say - I know that hurt feelings on my part are underlying this. He is an adult - I have always worked extremely hard to leave the kids out of the issues that their mom and I have had and I don't disparage mom or stepdad in front of the kids. It still feels like I am continuosly fighting from behind and getting my ass kicked for taking the high road as a parent. I have told him on several different occasions that he is an adult and he can choose what he wants his relationships to look like with both his mom and dad. I am really struggling here.
Anybody have any experience with this?
sonto92,
Sorry this sat so long unanswered. You've not posted much about this son. I think if there is any time for honest conversations, now would be a good time to start. Take him for dinner or a movie or to buy something for his apartment or his car-- and talk a bit and start to tell your story and let him know you love him and care for him. Be ready to listen to him without judgement.
That's all I can really offer. 19 year olds vary in maturity, but it sounds like he's been traumatized.
Best,
Latchkey
Could it be that he feels you did not protect him from his PD parent enough and is angry with you? I agree with Latchkey, I would try to find out from him what is going on.
I have been talking this through with my family over the last several days and trying to get my head around it. I had a strange event happen the other day after this initial post. I had picked up his sister and he was at his mom's house. He was talking with me about some plans he wanted to do with his sister that day and was REALLY vague and kind of sketchy about the details and none of it made much sense. I asked him to stop by the house when he was getting ready to leave and he did not come over and didn't call. His sister sent a text to him and he did respond to her saying that he decided to leave and was worried about his car breaking down, which is why he didn't come over. He was clearly uncomfortable explaining all of this to me before we left and doing a "not so good" job of trying to, what i feel, was to lie about his reasons for wanting his sister to come along. It's all so weird. We are set to go on a family vacation next week and he and his girlfriend are going to be there, so we will be able to spend some family time together.
Hi Sonto, I am the oldest of 4 to a uPD mother. I just wanted to share what happened to me at around your sons ages.
When I became a teen, I guess my mom's abandonment issues popped up. She changed the dynamic of our relationship from dictator/peon to bffs (buds is the next best description). She wanted my life and feelings to still revolve around her but she also started acting in a somewhat covert way. She used my teenage mind against me to her advantage. She became that voice in my head that I wanted to follow. The one that said I could be lazy, or irresponsible, that I should have what I want because it makes me feel better. As far as I know, all people get that voice as teens, it's part of growing up and testing boundaries, and realizing responsibilities. Questioning adults, forming my own opinions. She used that to confuse me.
All of a sudden she seemed like a nice person, especially when I wasn't living with her. She fed me believable lies about everyone else, including my siblings to get me to move back in with her. She told me to quit my job I hated, that I didn't have to go to school that day if I didn't feel like it, that I could do what I wanted while staying with her until I did find that imaginary perfect job (no actual work but high paying LOL).
I look back at that time, and realized that was a natural progression of my mind, but my mom took advantage and fed me lies I wanted to hear. I did move back in with her. It was the beginning of my 1 year of HELL! Worse than when I was a child. This forced me Out of the FOG. She waited until I couldn't just up and leave except to a homeless shelter before she started trying to destroy my autonomy. I felt like she wanted me to live in a closet and come out at night to clean like those house elves in Harry Potter. I wasn't supposed to need anything and she yelled at me everyday to bring her money yet to not get a job!? :stars:
I got away. I had to plan my escape and force myself to overcome that teenage voice that was a little self centred and self serving (completely normal).
I then noticed she did the same thing to my sister, and my brothers. She still offers to take care of all of us, especially when we NEED help. But it always comes with the price of enmeshment.
She was telling me what I had always wanted to hear from her while growing up, because as child, it seemed like she hated me for existing and as a teen/young adult, she suddenly wanted to love me as my mother. It's very confusing. I basically had to convince myself that everything she said was lies, I couldn't trust her. It was hard because I wanted to believe she loved me.
I know it's not the answer you're looking for but I thought maybe understanding what could be happening might be useful. Your sons are still young, still have that teenage/young adult mentality. It's not bad but it can sometimes be easily misled, especially if you tell it what it wants to hear. Even moreso if there are others adults that are trying to convince that teen/young adult to be more responsible then they want to be. It was easier to talk me into things than to talk me out of things. Especially if I wanted those things.
I'm sorry I can't be of more help.
D.Dan I'm SO sorry about everything you experienced with your mother but I can't tell you what it means to have someone who experienced it to explain it.
Sonto92, this is so similar to what we're seeing with my DSS17.
He is the oldest of 4 and was REALLY close to his dad (my DH) prior to his parent's divorce. BM left for several years and he was always the scapegoat. When she would come home and they would go visit her DH would have to drag him to her car (she was accusing DH of alienation at the time and the court forced DSS to go). He would call DH crying and upset because he and BM had gotten into a fight and he wanted to leave (some of that was manipulation on his part to avoid consequences but some of it was genuine). BM moved home last summer and began her campaign for full custody and started with DSS. Like D. Dan I think she made him feel important. She depended on him for emotional support, said he was "the man of the house" etc. He picked a fight with me one evening, ran off to BM's house and was gone for 8 months. As a result of this we were then required to pay BM a settlement to "offset the cost" of having him with her full time (never mind that she was in violation of a custody agreement). I'm 100% positive that she told DSS that she needed him to stay with her so she would get the money DH had to pay. Luckily, we got a parent coordinator involved who saw what was happening and helped us work everything out (mostly).
DSS is back now and has been doing okay. But during his time with only her I saw SO MANY of the same things you've both described. Santo92 you've talked before about the incessant referring to all things "my mom," we're definitely seeing that. You can tell he still feels like he has to validate her. She didn't make him go to school and we received letters that he's truant (and mostly flunking out) she's not encouraging him to get a job so he sits around and plays computer games all day. He rides his bike a REALLY long way to hang out with kids he probably shouldn't in an unsafe area. He's already talking about moving back in with her when he turns 18 so he can "help with rent." I'm wondering how long it will take for that to blow up.
Anyway. It's hard to watch because DH routinely says "that's not the kid that left my house 8 months ago." I'm worried that he won't graduate, will have no work ethic, will get involved with a really bad crowd (if he hasn't already). My DH and I have gone to a therapist and talked about DSS specifically quite a bit. We've come to the conclusion that pushing him is just going to cause more of a rift between he and DH. We're trying really hard just to make sure he's safe when he's with us and that he and DH have ANY shred of a relationship left so that if he needs/wants help in the future he'll come ask.
Sonto92 the only advice I can think of is just to make sure your son knows he can come to you if he needs help. And D.Dan, thank you SO much for putting some light on a situation that can be so hurtful and confusing.
Wow - I just want to give a huge thanks for the great feedback on this, especially you d.dan. Both of my boys (now 19 and 15) at some point have used this line with me during some of our family discussions - "it's my job to keep my (siblings) safe". My 15 y/o brought this up when we had a discussion at my parents which resulted in him starting to escalate and bad mouth everyone present. it INSTANTLY shot up a red flag for me because when my oldest was bearing the brunt of his BPDM's fury, he used to say the same thing. My 19 y/o always used to talk with me like he was speaking from the role of a parent and i had to steer him in the direction of "that's not your role". I can't even begin to tell you how helpful it was to hear from you Ddan, because I feel like my 19 y/o son is getting sucked back in to the "nice mom" trap and i keep asking myself "why in the hell would you want to do that?" I came across a note that my oldest had written to his mom when I was cleaning out my son's room about 2 months ago. The note was probably written about 2 years ago, but it was terrifying. He is telling his mom he is a horrible kid and that he is so lucky to have the best mom in the world, and I hope you can forgive me for being a terrible son. For the record - the oldest son has been the one kid that hasn't been in any trouble - he's not a risk taker, and is an all around polite young man. He excelled in school and was most certainly a rule follower. When i read this letter I was horrified and sad, because their is no reason that he would ever have to go to those lengths in a letter to his mom to make-up for any perceived mistakes. I know I mentioned earlier in this thread that BPDM and Stepdad were holding him down to get his keys and the police were called (by the 15 y/o) and, for the life of me, and I can't imagine WHY THERE WOULD EVER be a need for them to do that because of anything he did, ignoring the fact that it is absolutely wrong in the first place. My oldest suffers from anxiety and I have always felt like he would be just a step or 2 away from having a nervous breakdown. Which gets me back to my earlier question - why the hell would you ever want to go back?
ACC1984 - thanks for the great feedback as well. My middle son is spiraling in the exact same fashion - no work ethic, no ownership in his actions, failing school - he's doing summer school and will miss our family vacation for the first time in the 15 years that he has been alive - a trip that, even though there has been tension in this co-parenting situation, ALL of the kids look forward to and they talk about it all year until we are ready to go. I am glad that you came to the realization that the harder you pushback, the more distant he will become. All of my middle son's abusive rantings have always been triggered by me putting my foot down and holding him accountable for his responsibilities at school.
the courts formally removed me from my uPD mother's custody the summer between 9th/10th grade. this was after living with her ALONE very briefly for the first time since she left my biological father- from the time i was 7 up until then her parents took care of me and when she got remarried and came back to 'claim' me i was in middle school so i didn;t need the same level of care and she was in MOTY mode around her ex...
i won't go into detail about the charges or how her ex husband got custody of me because she was unfit and my biodad had given up at that point. fast forward about two years and she's trying to get me back, MOTY act again (this was because there was back child support $$$ involved for her). she fought the termination of her parental rights and won.
so there we were, me being close to 17 and her being the 'BFF' or 'bud' that some of the other posters described. even though i was on probation for my own behaviors she lied for me when i didn't go to school or make curfew because she wanted to be seen as fun and hip. she encourage me to party, drove me to bars, and looked the other way when i came home TORE UP as a minor. when i got suspended, we made cookies.... she didn't even seem to be bothered that i would need to repeat my senior year and helped me sign up for trade school...
this lasted until the checks stopped shortly after i turned 18. she flipped almost OVERNIGHT -then i was the devil and she had to cast me out. i started my first adult version of NC about 4 months after i turned 18 and it lasted until i was almost 21. i moved home with her/her parents (the entire family dynamic is SKEWED) and lasted a little over a year in the chaos and i've been NC since leaving shortly after i turned 22- i'm almost 47 now for perspective.
depending on where your son is developmentally it sounds like your ex is doing something similar- trying to win his confidence and trust in order to get something- whether financial or emotional who knows, but please do keep the lines of communication open with your DS.
D Dan and redshoes, thank you SO much for coming in here and explaining what might be going on. So often I feel like we are all in the dark about what's going on at the other house. Even having a sense of what the other parent might be saying gives me better ideas about how to counteract it. Seriously, I think you've helped a lot of children of the people on this board.
Sonto92, I am thinking of you. It seems like you're having a really hard time right now but it seems like your kids are really lucky to have you even if they don't realize it right now. Good luck.
Xredshoes - thanks for jumping in on this thread. I am keeping my fingers crossed that my 2 oldest boys won't have to wait until they are significantly older before they can make the connection that their BPDx mother is a master manipulator. It is so insidious at this young age (especially my 15 y/o ) because developmentally they can't process it. Their mom can not do anything wrong.
Sonto92,
We have the same problem. Dad (my bF) is always the bad guy and BM can do no wrong. SD feels like she needs to protect and help BM, no matter the cost. SD is 17. BM randomly tries to keep her for more time so she can file for custody to get $$$. Everything she does to manipulate SD goes back to BM needing $$$. SD doesn't see it. It is so frustrating.
D.Dan and Redshoe, thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Interesting that you would make the connection to money. I'm wondering if this is coming into play in my situation as well. I had a meeting with BPDx and family's therapist not too long ago. My 15 y/o made the decision to move to his moms within the last month (long story). For now, our custody arrangement hasn't changed- it is 50/50. We are meeting in August to discuss next steps. Her lead in for the session was "15 y/o is worried that dad will swoop in and demand to take him during his (my) parenting time" , sparing no time to stoke the flames of distrust. I spoke to her about a week later to let her know that I changed health coverage for the kids (deductible to copay) and her first comment was that it will cost her money in reduced child support (which I had called beforehand and found out that it wouldn't change) She was on the phone with our support person from the county immediately after I told her. The irony is that I told her in the middle of May that I was going to do this). It takes a $25 dollar copay to take the kids in rather than a ton of money out of pocket.
I did talk with my 19 y/o son this evening- shared with him that I feel like he has been distant lately and I was wondering if there was something he needed to talk about. Fairly quickly he was having an anxiety attack and was hyperventilating on the floor. He was diagnosed with anxiety about 2 years ago and hasn't been doing anything lately to help him with his anxiety. It was a great conversation today. I did my best to take the focus off of his mom and keep it focused on getting in to see someone who can help himself with his anxiety.
I am sorry to hear his anxiety is that bad. But hopefully he will decide to see someone to talk about it. Maybe it will help him learn a helpful coping mechanism or how to identify his triggers. :) It sounds like he is worried about something. I hope he is able to sort it out. Anxiety can be rough.
With your ex's comments about the insurance, it does sound like she is concerned about the money. Even if switching insurances made her child support payment drop, the focus should be on what's best for the kids and not how much $$$ she is getting. Technically the same money goes to the kids, just up front from you for the insurance instead of our of pocket at the doctor's visits. So it seems selfish she's concerned over the support payment. Unfortunately that is our reality too. Everything revolves around money with BM.
Sonto 92, Athene 1399
Thank you for your insight. I would also agree with the money connection. I don't know if it's the selfishness that manifests itself in that form or what but the biggest issues we've had are centered around finances. Our BM convinced SS17 to live at her house for almost a year in violation of our time sharing agreement. Because of that we had to pay her monthly. I don't think for a second that she didn't tell SS he had to stay with her or she wouldn't be able to pay rent (in a house she can't afford and has no business living in). SS was the scapegoat for a very long time but she jumped on the chance to turn him into the golden child when it meant she would benefit. He feels the need to protect and help her (has already said he's moving in with her when he turns 18 to help her pay rent). It took us a year to get him back... they never could give a valid reason for his leaving. "He doesn't like the back and forth" was as much as we could get. When threatened to be held in contempt by the court appointed parent coordinator BM blamed everything on SS "You had better go back, you're going to get me in trouble and cost me more money." It was very sad.
acc1984 - Your experience with having a child leave in violation of a stipulated order is the position that I am in as well. My 15 y/o made the decision to move to my BPDx's house about a month ago. There is a longer back story, but this is supposed to be on a trial basis and we are going to re-evaluate this in August. I'm wondering how long it will take before my BPDx makes the move to change our parenting order. It was interesting that you noted that as far as reasons go, there wasn't any that made it clear that it was a good idea for son to change houses. My 15 y/o is convinced that I am a horrible father and that i screwed up as a dad, but when you ask him why he feels that way, he doesn't have a reason or examples to back it up.
On a sidenote, my oldest did get in yesterday to meet with his doctor and discuss some of the issues he has been having with his anxiety and he felt really good about the appointment. My BPDx has a instilled a mental health/medication stigma fully in his head and he discussed this with me at length prior to his appointment. I told him that at 19, he is in charge of making his own decisions on what he feels he needs.
QuoteOn a sidenote, my oldest did get in yesterday to meet with his doctor and discuss some of the issues he has been having with his anxiety and he felt really good about the appointment. My BPDx has a instilled a mental health/medication stigma fully in his head and he discussed this with me at length prior to his appointment. I told him that at 19, he is in charge of making his own decisions on what he feels he needs.
That is great news. I am so glad he is doing better and you are there to support him and that he likes and trusts his doctor.
acc1984 and sonto, we had the same issue with the custody violation. SD starting spending more time with BM and then every time we went to pick her up there was an excuse why she had to stay. We got it back on track for the most part, but it's hard and we can't always stick to the schedule. BM always has family in from out of town or her older kids visit and we're supposed to make up the missed time but generally never do. There's always another excuse, and if we try to be rigid with the schedule we look like the bad guys. I hate to say it, but it's a bit of a relief that we aren't the only ones dealing with this (which is messed up. No one should have to go through this).
I am so glad the therapy appointment went well. I hope it helps. :)
Sonto92,
I'm glad your oldest's appointment went well! Unfortunately, I don't have any good advice for you and your other son except to keep trying... see if you can get the court to order counseling (our PC recommended a reunification specialist although she never followed through with the referral) the more people, therapists, even your son can see that you care about him and the things his BM is probably telling him about you aren't true, the better. I could really see when we got to the end of everything this spring SS and even BM were just beat down. They had used every excuse and blamed everyone they could and the PC wasn't budging. Maybe also keep track of how he's doing in school? SS was with BM from the end of last July until the beginning of this month and his grades were AWFUL. We received letters from the school that he was truant... it made it hard for BM to argue that her house was the best environment for SS. She did try to say that his grades fell and he was having issues in school because he had been having more contact with DH, but no one bought that. She actually looked at the PC and said "I believe what is best for my son is that he have no relationship with his father." In our case, her claims were so outrageous that they didn't get her far.
Good for you for empowering your 19 year old to take charge of his own mental health! The hold BPD parents can have over their kids is unreal. People keep saying "they'll grow up and realize what happened, they'll see the parent for what they are." That's just such a hard thing to hope for when you're in the middle of it all like this.
Sonto92,
My son is 13, turning 14 in a few weeks.
I have had some similar struggles with him, he is very protective of exBPDw. He is passive aggressive towards me and his sisters, especially after visits with his BM.
I am afraid that if he were allowed to decide he would choose to live with BM.
He wishes that we were still together, i think he resents me for leaving.
This would all be reinforced by exBPDw.
I attend a support group that is intended for men that have been involved in domestic violence. Most are there because they are the offenders.
Some, like myself, were accused and attended because of a mandatory order. I continue to attend because everyone in the group is open, honest and progressive. there are good counselors that facilitate and at times I can offer advise or get advise from others.
One of the men in attendance last week is in his mid 30's, his mother was diagnosed as Bipolar and Borderline as well as Schizophrenic.
His parents stayed together despite the abusive relationship, but he grew up resenting and being angry at his father.
No one ever explained to him that his mother was mentally ill, he blamed his dad for "setting her off" he thought that if his dad was nicer to her and gave her what she wanted that everything would have been O.K.
He grew up with anger and violence problems and ended up as an abuser himself.
He told me that he wished someone (his father) had explained things to him.
The group counselor (who counsels abused children) also recommended that I have a conversation with my son about his mom's mental illness.
My son has said similar things to me. He has given indications that he thinks I treated exBPDw poorly by not giving in to her, which of course resulted in rages, blaming, accusations, threats, swearing and name calling in front of the kids. From her, not from me.
When kids are constantly exposed to this I think they begin to believe the words of the abuser. My son has also blamed my daughters (when they were being physically and verbally abused) for being the cause of the abuse.
It is important that your son is taught the difference. PDs are skillful at reversing the victim and offender. They justify their actions, they don't take accountability.
They gaslight, they blame and they are relentless.
I had a good conversation with my son about this on the weekend. I explained the story about "my friend" from support group to help him identify his situation and to help him understand he is not alone. (much like this website helped me).
I talked to him about mental illness. I empathized, acknowledging how confusing it must be for him.
Especially when he is told bad things about people that he knows are good and treat him good.
You can do this while still maintaining compassion for your ex.
I told him that I know she loves him and is doing her best. I also said that she is not a bad person.
I acknowledged that she sees things differently.
I also said that she didn't ask or decide to be this way, but reality is that she has a disorder. She has to work to get better.
I also explained that we had to leave so that things would get better. That eventually it will be better for everyone, even his mom.
Constant exposure to arguments is damaging to him and his sisters and i don't want them to end up like "my friend" from support group with serious problems later in life.
The only thing that I could do to protect them is leave.
I think that showing him I still care about his mom's wellbeing, that I understand how he may be feeling, and overall that I care deeply about him and his sisters will help him come around.
He did not want to have this conversation and fought against talking about it. he does not like to talk about how he is feeling or express his anger towards me (although I can tell when he is angry because he gets very passive-aggressive).
I also acknowledged that he may be angry at me for leaving or for causing his mom emotional pain.
At the beginning of the conversation I said "I know you are a smart kid and I think you are old enough to understand what I have to tell you".
I think this helped bring down his defenses a bit.
I guess I am saying that there are ways to talk about this with your kids without blaming or accusing your ex. or making your son think poorly about her.
Also acknowledge that things you did may have caused him to be angry (not blaming his mom for the situation) but also your very important reasons for your actions. Children don't want their parents to break up, it is upsetting to them and they may want to blame someone for that, and you can guarantee your ex will be blaming you.
Take accountability for your decisions and that alone will help them realize the difference between you and the PD.
Be prepared to hear some things that you may not want to hear.
Thank you for sharing, Findingmyvoice. I've wanted to discuss with SD18 her mom's mental illness, but am afraid she would just take it the wrong way. Since end of October, she's been staying at BM's full time even though SO technically has custody. I only see her once a month now when it used to be daily. Her excuse was "the back and forth is too much". But I don't know if we should take the few chances we get to see her to talk about her mom's illness (officially bipolar, but once was diagnosed BPD). When we've tried to bring it up years ago when we were going through court SD got very defensive and shut down. Basically all we said was SO wanted a judge to decide if SO should remain the custodial guardian, and brought up how her mom's rages are inappropriate (I think we actually said "not cool"). SD was 15 while this was going on. At the time BM was raging on both SD and SO. We tried to tell SD that the rages were not her fault and her mom shouldn't act like that, but sometimes can't help it. She just shuts down and doesn't want to talk about it. Her mom recently has been raging on their neighbor, and SD sees nothing wrong with the behavior and thinks the neighbor deserves to be yelled at by BM. We've left the whole thing alone, kind of hoping SD will figure it out on her own and be more receptive to talk about it later. We just don't know what the right thing to do is. SD seems to assume the parent role with BM, and when we were in court years ago SD wanted her mom to have custody so that she could get child support from SO to pay her bills. I just feel SD is still in the fog so she is not ready to talk about it, but maybe we should try? I'm afraid to push her away, especially since we hardly see her.
Sorry if I hijacked this thread.
Hi Athene,
It's such a hard position to be in! You have the information that you feel would help SD understand her circumstances and experiences, but it's really a land mine putting it out there. I would honestly be very, very careful based on your recent posts about SD pulling away. I think the way you have handled it in the past with telling her that the behaviors aren't her fault are good. Even if you name the mental illness for her, that won't necessarily change her perspective of how her mom treats people. She may even go MORE on the defensive of her mother because now she really "can't help it" and then there could be blame for everyone around her etc. IMO, you are best served trying to model consistent and stable behavior. When she talks about the neighbor situation, maybe use it as a gentle conversation about how to approach difficult people effectively without compromising your own values. I have a LOT of discussions with DSD about how she reacts to people she perceives as "offending" her. BM has taught her to be aggressive and "stand up for her rights", but I am trying to talk to her about how that is not really going to help anything in the long term. Wouldn't she be better served by reacting with kindness and trying to help that person understand why she is offended in a friendly way, so in the future they have a better understanding of her situation. DSD is motivated by the idea of changing the world for the better, so it really helps to get her to see the "long game". She may not always admit it, but I see her wheels start turning. And to be fair, BM has also taught her to see EVERYTHING as "offensive", so she is really really not served well by reacting to it. BM is trying to create her very own little mini-PD.
Just remember- it's the long game for us too. Some days it will feel like we are losing, and the kids are spiraling down this PD hole. Other days, they peak their head out and remind us that they are still in there...and there is still hope. There is the constant resetting of rational and even thinking, just think of it as job security as a stepmom! ;D
QuoteBM has taught her to be aggressive and "stand up for her rights", but I am trying to talk to her about how that is not really going to help anything in the long term.
I'm am so glad you brought this up because we have the same things going on. I think the idea of nicely explaining why you are offended so it becomes a learning experience for both parties. I will have to try that. And thank you for pointing out discussing BM's mental issues may currently lead to SD getting more defensive. I think it's just something I will have to keep my "feelers" out for to see when she is ready to talk about it. Who knows, maybe she will never be ready.
Findingmyvoice, thank you for posting this! Everything you said was wise and on the mark. I'm going to refer back to this often, I think.
Thanks Penny,
At the time I felt like it was a breakthrough and my son was acting closer to me, I even got the odd hug when leaving the house in the morning.
But after a few evenings at his mom's house it has started to shift again.
Initially I stayed away from talking about this because I got a stern warning from the judge about talking to the kids about adult issues.
This was because I had looked at a few homes and the kids were bugging me about when we could move.
I told them that we couldn't move yet, I didn't know when we would be able to move and that mom and dad have to work things out first.
Somehow this got twisted to "it's moms fault we can't get a new house", probably by exPDw. The kids apparently told her that they were looking at houses and asked her a similar question.
I didn't want something like that to come up in court again.
However, since I had a recommendation from a counselor to fall back on and I was truly doing it in the interests of my kids I felt safe talking to him.
He may go to his mom and tell her "dad said you are mentally ill" and I will have to defend myself in front of a judge, but I am prepared to explain myself.
Athene and SL,
I know how hard it is to watch a child get molded by someone that has such warped thinking.
Its tough to think that he may decide to live with her when he is older.
It would be bad for his emotional development, but there is not much that can be done once he is old enough to make that decision for himself.
There are shocking similarities between things that PDs say. ExBPDw often used to use the term "standing up for your rights" to justify her own bad behavior or treating others badly. Standing up for her rights meant stonewalling, yelling, insults, kicking people out of the house, threats, etc. etc.
She would often say that I let people walk all over me if i was kind, patient, cooperative and collaborated with people.
She thought if she didn't get exactly what she wanted that she had lost something. She didn't care who she offended or hurt in order to get her way or control people.
My kids have used some of her phrases and tactics at times and I also have to explain how to deal with people properly. They don't have a full understanding of how to approach people when you have a problem that you want to resolve.
When you approach aggressively with blame, accusations, threats and harsh language there is no hope of resolving anything.
You can only hope to resolve issues if you approach with the intent of understanding and coming to a mutual solution.
Even if the solution is that you can't agree and go your own ways.
She also thought that if she was offended the bad person that offended her must be punished in some way. Get over yourself!
Finding my voice - thanks for the response. The feedback I got from you was very helpful. I have put some counseling in place for my 15 y/o son and I starting next week. I had a meeting with my BPDx and our respective attorneys before Christmas. During this meeting, we discussed next steps for getting my son back at my house. We discussed the work that we have been doing with our former family therapist and it is always interesting to see two different perceptions of the same event. In the time we had been working with this person, we had been able to sit down in a room for an hour on four different occasions - together - to discuss problems we have been having with our son. This has not ever happened in the last 10 years since our divorce, and I described this as a positive.
My BPDx chimed in - in her perception, this therapist is useless and nothing good has come out of any of it. My BPDx also told everyone in the room that I told my son during a session that he was not welcome at my house, which was a complete lie, and I called her out on it. She wanted to go around and around on this and I told her that if it needed to be clarified by the therapist, it could (and was done). The therapist emailed a session summary to both of us that clearly detailed that in no way did I ever tell our son he was not welcome at my house. The summary also included some conversations that my son had with therapist. When he was asked why he was treating me the way he was, he was doing it to "get dad to give up parenting time". It's so friggin dysfunctional over there right now, and I had put a post up earlier about my 15 y/o son dating and 18 y/o girl that has a 5 month old baby - AND - baby's dad is in jail because he likes to violate restraining orders. I messaged my BPDx about it and she told me that "I had all of my information wrong", that the girl is just a "family friend". My son is also failing - miserably - at school and they are talking about sending him to an alternative school, which based on his academic ability, is a joke because he's a smart kid.
I agree with the advice to not talk specifically about a parent's mental health and diagnosis. Talk about behaviors, yes, but even be careful there because it can verge into disparagement territory.
I have a bipolar 2 diagnosis. I was misdiagnosed with depression for a long time. Once I started taking a mood stabilizer, during my divorce, my life improved so much. I also have participated in regular (biweekly or monthly as needed) talk therapy. I have fought to manage my symptoms, which mostly manifest as deep depression, and I am successful. I have been in a good place for about 3 years now and even before that it was more good than bad. My late 20s, before having kids, was rough.
I have gotten out in front of my ex and his wife's interpretation of my mental health. My son takes medication for ADHD. So I talk about taking my medication too. He gets counseling, and I get counseling. I try to be a role model for using coping tools — I tell him my strategies and we work on his strategies. I will do my damnedest to destigmatize mental illness in my home.
My diagnosis was used against me in court but my counselor and my son's counselor were able to attest to my stability and compliance with treatment. My ex and his wife have been treated for depression (I suspect she may have been treated for more) but of course that's not as "serious" of a diagnosis as bipolar to many people.
If anyone has read my previous posts the tl;dr version is my son's stepmother emotionally and verbally abused my son for years. I was able to prove it in court last year and my ex and his wife have to be supervised now.
I found out a few weeks ago my son's stepmother is talking about my mental health to him. I have already reported it to our parenting coordinator and documented this. There is NO reason for my ex and his wife to talk about my mental health to my son. None. If they have concerns about it, they can take it up with the coordinator or the judge. Full stop.
So I'm just putting that out there. I love the support of this forum, it has helped me immensely. But the stigmatizing of some mental health diagnoses bothers me. I'm sure I'm not the only poster here that has a diagnosis. It's not about the diagnosis, it's the behaviors. People can have a diagnosis and be great parents. My dream is to start a program or center to help parents with mental health struggles. I want to give others the support I've been fortunate to receive from my community and family.
Thanks for this reminder Lilyflower! There are good people with mental health diagnoses and bad people with no diagnosis, and vice versa.
It's also a good reminder that all the coparents we talk about on this board (PD diagnosis or no) have a choice about their behavior. Even if it may be harder for them, it's still a choice. Sometimes I get stuck in the mentality of "well BM just can't do this" but that's not really true, there are other people who have worked through similar issues as she has and don't act terrible.
My therapist likes to encourage me to talk about patterns not diagnoses and maybe that's more helpful. Maybe instead of talking about mom's mental illness it's things like, mom has a hard time accepting blame (I would never say that to my stepkids but it sounds like some of you guys have a much more open dialogue about this stuff) or something like that. Or, sometimes mom's perception of what happened and my perception are very different and that's not how I remember it.
Again, thanks lilyflower for this kind and helpful reminder to all of us! It's given me some good stuff to think about in terms of teaching the kids about mental health, stigma and specifically how to talk to them about their mom.
Quote from: sonto92 on January 27, 2019, 01:31:20 AM
My son is also failing - miserably - at school and they are talking about sending him to an alternative school, which based on his academic ability, is a joke because he's a smart kid.
sonto92, You know the alternative schools often have kids with high ability not working or able to work to their potential. There are smaller class sizes and teachers and staff trained to help. It's important that you visit the school in question and make sure it seems right for your DS. If it is not find other schools in your district area where he could attend. You might need to get an attorney or advocate. A therapeutic school placement can be a godsend for kids that are failing and struggling with issues like your DS. It also will not show that he ever attended the school on the transcript usually especially if he is able to transition back to his regular high school.
Quote from: lilyflower236 on January 28, 2019, 07:52:18 AM
I agree with the advice to not talk specifically about a parent's mental health and diagnosis. Talk about behaviors, yes, but even be careful there because it can verge into disparagement territory.
I have a bipolar 2 diagnosis. I was misdiagnosed with depression for a long time. Once I started taking a mood stabilizer, during my divorce, my life improved so much. I also have participated in regular (biweekly or monthly as needed) talk therapy. I have fought to manage my symptoms, which mostly manifest as deep depression, and I am successful. I have been in a good place for about 3 years now and even before that it was more good than bad. My late 20s, before having kids, was rough.
I have gotten out in front of my ex and his wife's interpretation of my mental health. My son takes medication for ADHD. So I talk about taking my medication too. He gets counseling, and I get counseling. I try to be a role model for using coping tools — I tell him my strategies and we work on his strategies. I will do my damnedest to destigmatize mental illness in my home.
My diagnosis was used against me in court but my counselor and my son's counselor were able to attest to my stability and compliance with treatment. My ex and his wife have been treated for depression (I suspect she may have been treated for more) but of course that's not as "serious" of a diagnosis as bipolar to many people.
If anyone has read my previous posts the tl;dr version is my son's stepmother emotionally and verbally abused my son for years. I was able to prove it in court last year and my ex and his wife have to be supervised now.
I found out a few weeks ago my son's stepmother is talking about my mental health to him. I have already reported it to our parenting coordinator and documented this. There is NO reason for my ex and his wife to talk about my mental health to my son. None. If they have concerns about it, they can take it up with the coordinator or the judge. Full stop.
So I'm just putting that out there. I love the support of this forum, it has helped me immensely. But the stigmatizing of some mental health diagnoses bothers me. I'm sure I'm not the only poster here that has a diagnosis. It's not about the diagnosis, it's the behaviors. People can have a diagnosis and be great parents. My dream is to start a program or center to help parents with mental health struggles. I want to give others the support I've been fortunate to receive from my community and family.
Lilyflower,
you are right many here do have dx's and I think most end up here with some forms of Depression and CPTSD as they start on the forums for sure..... we work hard not to stigmatize the PDs in our lives on this forum. We also see no place in stigmatizing mental illness because that does not serve our purpose in any form. We are here to support and heal. We also specifically direct members who are looking for support for themselves or because of a BiPolar or Depressed or Schizophrenic or ADHD or whatever dx that is not also one with a PD (either dx or undx) to other forums.
We also often direct folks to a therapist, or other counselor, and real life support groups such as NAMI, CoDA, Al Anon.
If you see stigmatising please hit the report to moderator button.
Quote from: Penny Lane on January 28, 2019, 10:25:20 AM
Thanks for this reminder Lilyflower! There are good people with mental health diagnoses and bad people with no diagnosis, and vice versa.
It's also a good reminder that all the coparents we talk about on this board (PD diagnosis or no) have a choice about their behavior. Even if it may be harder for them, it's still a choice. Sometimes I get stuck in the mentality of "well BM just can't do this" but that's not really true, there are other people who have worked through similar issues as she has and don't act terrible.
My therapist likes to encourage me to talk about patterns not diagnoses and maybe that's more helpful. Maybe instead of talking about mom's mental illness it's things like, mom has a hard time accepting blame (I would never say that to my stepkids but it sounds like some of you guys have a much more open dialogue about this stuff) or something like that. Or, sometimes mom's perception of what happened and my perception are very different and that's not how I remember it.
Again, thanks lilyflower for this kind and helpful reminder to all of us! It's given me some good stuff to think about in terms of teaching the kids about mental health, stigma and specifically how to talk to them about their mom.
I agree with this. I also want to throw out there that sonto92 was initially talking about an adult son, "older kids" and I think it is appropriate to begin using the actual mental illness diagnostic terms with older children. I began when my older two were teens and they wanted to know answers as to why their BPD/ASPD Dad behaved the way he did.
Thank you for sharing, Lillyflower! I have found it's easier to talk about my mental health with SD. BM uses her mental health as an excuse for her behaviors. I told SD I went through a phase where I did this too and it was terrible. I try to talk about how I can't control my feelings but I can control my behavior, even though it can be a challenge at times. Maybe that's the way to do it though, not mention a thing about BM but discuss things with my life that overlap so we can make it a relevant learning experience. SD is 18, but I still don't think she is ready to talk openly about her mom's behavior, but that's okay. I can find a way around that and can still make it therapeutic and educational. I had a lot of issues in my 20s and I can talk about that because some of it is similar to how BM acts at times. I also want SD to know that there's nothing wrong with going to talk to a counselor. It doesn't mean you are "sick" or there's something wrong with you. There's nothing wrong in asking for help.
Ultimately it is not BM's diagnoses or disorder that is the problem, it's how she behaves due to that diagnoses. Also, the one T that diagnosed her with BPD she walked away from. She chose not to get the help she needed. I think things are changing now because she showed her T all the unprovoked nasty emails/texts she has sent in the past to SO. Now her counselor is able to address this with her and she has been much better...to us anyway. There's so much stigma around BPD i can understand why BM walked away from that first T who diagnosed her with it. She wasn't ready to acknowledge that she may have it. I think she is starting to be ready now and is taking the first steps and I am proud of her.
Now I really hijacked this thread. Sorry all!
I really struggle with the topic of talking to the kids about everything going on. Of course, no one disparages their mother and adult details aren't given. But when the kids are clearly in distress or there is obviously some kind of turmoil I don't know how you don't give them tools to work through it. I think there is definitely an age issue... the little ones don't need things explained the way the older kids do, but DSD15 and DSS 17 are noticing things and needing guidance.
For example, DSS17 got in some trouble at school a few months ago. There were some accusations made and the police ended up at his UBPD BM's front door one night. The situation was not handled well, her boyfriend said and did some things that could have gotten DSS in BIG trouble and BM let the police search his room without a warrant. DH wasn't notified about any of this until it was over but was able to speak with administrators and everything worked out really well. BM screamed and yelled at DSS and then completely backed out and wanted nothing to do with resolving the situation. DSS was really upset and felt like he was thrown under the bus. He couldn't understand why BM made some of the decisions she made or why she let her boyfriend get involved and make things worse. DH had a really genuine, heartfelt conversation (kind of like FindingMyVoice described a few messages back). He didn't make accusations or diagnoses but said (almost verbatim) some of the things FMV said. DSS seemed to be receptive and when DH told me about it I felt really good about DSS starting to get some tools and perspective in dealing with his mom.
I just think that depending on the kid, the age, and the situation there is an appropriate way to talk to these kids about the PD parent. My biggest fear is the thought of them being caught up in the drama and chaos for the rest of their lives and thinking it's normal.
Great insight, FMV. Thank you for sharing.