I thought things ha got better, we have had a good spell. But last night I FaceTime a friend and my partner, became furious at something I said, told me at the end that we were done. She was fed up with my behaviour and that that I had not changed. I had had a bit too much to drink, so I couldn't quite remember everything that we had said but I truly didn't think it was any of the things she hates. ( making fun of her, making her feel small, belittling her in front of people). I was so worried I asked my friend what I had done that could have upset my partner so much they said I hadn't done anything. We have been here before, I end up crying, and apologising for it all and trying to do better and it not again. This time I cried and state again to say sorry, but she was not interested. I am now not wanting to go downstairs, as I am going to go through it all again, or I will be ignored, cold eyes like I'm the worst killer ever. I feel terrible, upset, frightened, . I don't know what to do, say that will work. Help.
Maybe read in the toolbox in this websote and find some tools to avoid such conversations and to put up boundaries.
Also some pds get a since of anxiety and abandonment when people theybdepend on for narcissistic supply are giving attentiin to others.
Thanks. It feels like a replay of all our big fallouts, I always done something to her, overshared stuff, made her feel terrible. It's always left me feeling as if I'm the evil person and she is the viictim . I keep trying to work out if it's me with the pd and she's the ok one. The coldness, lack of affection is really horrible, I feel frozen out af is she's MCing me.. there's also a kind of over affecting to everyone else, like I'm on the outside, our boys are getting all the affection, that I'm used to. Like my bad behaviour is being rubbed in my face. The pain of all this is so bad, I just want it to stop and go back to where it was. How did I get soo careless.
Sorry, me again. I'm really struggling, I'm ready to break , to have that conversation when I break down, admit everything, say I'm sorry, will try and be a better person, that I'm the one doing her 'bad' . I Keep thinking I've blown it this time. It's always me feeling like I've done the betraying, if I hadn't called my friend, we might have been ok, if I hadn't had a drink. I keep doing the what ifs, but I think maybe this was a crash that was on its way anyway? I think she likes being the victim, the drama of it all , and I can't ever get it right.,
Sounds like you have come to a point where you are mighty confused. Do you have access to a counselling centre, some CoDA meetings, a trusted friend, family members you can trust? You need a reality check. Your perception of the situation is different than your partner's and it might help if you could find some clarity. You could start a diary where you document what you did and what your partner's reaction was. You could write down how you feel, just to bring some order into your experience.
Sounds like you trust this friend that you facetimed with. What does he say to your situation?
I do trust him, known each other for years, he's a good friend. I talked with him last night, and asked what he thought. He said I hadn't done anything to make her feel bad, and that he felt she was trying to have an argument with him. I got drawn in and reacted . It's an old argument about my work and how useless and pointless it is, with threats to withdraw any cooperation/ support if I continue with how I view it. (Photography).
I defended and eventually asked her to leave. So I have made her look bad, not agreed, and now being emotionally frozen out. Speaking but that's it.
I’m sorry for your situation, it sounds awful.
Alcohol tends to magnify our feelings and lower our inhibitions. You say you’d been drinking to the point where you don’t remember exactly what you said. My ex and I had some of our worst fights when alcohol was involved. Both on his and my side, so I’ve been where you are as well as on the receiving end.
I gently suggest looking at the drinking. Removing alcohol from my life really helped with my emotional regulation. It also allowed me to see situations for what they were vs what I thought they were. My communication with others improved dramatically and there were far fewer misunderstandings in my life.
I also support notright’s CoDA recommendation.
I hope you are able to find support and resolve this issue.
notrightinthehead is, as usual, very right in the head.
A journal of these events is a great idea, as is a trusted FOC person on whom you can rely for advice and guidance. This can give you confidence in yourself, or clarity about the nature of this relationship.
I see you are new to the forum. Welcome!
Take a moment to check out our Personality Disorders (https://outofthefog.website/types-of-personality-disorders) page, where we describe all the major types of PDs. Considering that list will help you determine if anybody in this relationship is even likely to have a PD. You may determine there are just problems, and no pathology at all.
Our Toolbox (https://outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro/) has tactics: what to do and what to avoid doing. Good luck to you. Do remember as you read that all of us exhibit some of these attributes some of the time. Displaying some of those tendencies doesn't make one disordered.
So much good strength to you. Count to ten, stabilize, and then begin your new day.
Thanks for this, I don't usually drink a lot but this time yes I did. I think avoiding alcohol is a good idea from now on. I just want to say I have altered quite a few details, as I'm really anxious about being recognised.
I worked with a therapist. I found this enormously helpful. I was resistant a first but it changed my path.
She helped me recognize that I drink when I’m uncertain about things. I worked on finding ways to deal with uncertainly so I didn’t drink. I generally didn’t drink at other times. A lot of the change for me was recognizing how I felt and not being reactive.
It sounds like a stressful situation with your partner. There is a lot of information and support here and many of us have or had very similar situations to you so most importantly there is understanding.
Quote from: Feeling sick on May 12, 2020, 06:13:56 AM
I do trust him, known each other for years, he's a good friend. I talked with him last night, and asked what he thought. He said I hadn't done anything to make her feel bad, and that he felt she was trying to have an argument with him. I got drawn in and reacted . It's an old argument about my work and how useless and pointless it is, with threats to withdraw any cooperation/ support if I continue with how I view it. (Photography).
I defended and eventually asked her to leave. So I have made her look bad, not agreed, and now being emotionally frozen out. Speaking but that's it.
Im sorry for the fear and sadness you are experiencing.
To me it sounds more like it is about her 'policing' your thoughts and beliefs than it is about you actually doing or saying something offensive.
Its common ime to notice a repeating cycle eventually in this type of dynamics in a relationship.
IMO it isnt helpful to grovel and beg or apologise for things you didnt even do. You did not betray her. You did not do her wrong. You did not blow it! You are not responsible for her reactions.
I would only apologise for specific behaviors she could name IE 'name calling, yelling, making threats, etc.
I would ask her to describe the behaviors that were troubling to her so that you know what specifically to work on. 'Making her look bad', 'dis agreeing', etc. are vague and descriptive of
her feelings. Do
not accept them as
your 'faults' imo!
Somehow when I read advice in books, like boundaries books, it always seems like it's just to be honest and straightforward and ought to be easy. Yet, it's so hard to do when in the middle of a situation - I know I struggle a lot.
Here you could say something like "I'm sorry you didn't like what I said when talking to my friend. I don't think that I said anything that I would expect to bother you, but I was a bit drunk and I don't really remember, so I can't be sure. If I did, I apologize. A way you could help me do better in the future is if you can remember specific phrases or topics from the convo that bothered you and tell me now. If you don't remember the details either, then maybe we should just let this one go."
This gives you a base you can stick to regardless of what happens. If she gets more specific, you can decide if you believe her, or would say that, or think it's actually impolite, and respond accordingly. If not, there's really not much more to be said besides "If I said something I shouldn't have, I apologize". No need to let the drama build, or have anyone be "bad". We all make mistakes sometimes, hard though some people find that to believe.
Thank you for this, I have just read Dana' Mornithstar's book on narcissism and personality disorders Start Here' I am learning a lot.
I can see an awful lot of things that ring true for this relationship, but I'm still in it, I'm really scared because I've stepped on her boundaries and reacted when she pushed my buttons, but I can't get out of it. I feel so lonely, still thinking how stupid I've been, how couldn't I shut up? She being cordial, but not affectionate, cold, but not nasty, as such,. It felt really good before, I relaxed, thought we were doing well, thought I had managed to make her feel I was behaving , that I was walking the right path, and then I go and say the wrong things to trigger this all off. I should have known better. My partner never forgets an insult or offence, she brings up everything, even the things I haven't done and makes it like I had. The good has been so nice I forgot to be careful, and now I'm reaping the whirlwind. She threatened that I was on my own now, that I would never make it on my own , has said that no one would love me as much or like her again. And now she is acting out her threat, she's treating me like a visitor in my own family and it's real agony.
Also beginning to see I' am co dependant and want to rescue people too.
Quote from: Feeling sick on May 12, 2020, 11:28:54 PM
Thank you for this, I have just read Dana' Mornithstar's book on narcissism and personality disorders Start Here' I am learning a lot.
I can see an awful lot of things that ring true for this relationship, but I'm still in it, I'm really scared because I've stepped on her boundaries and reacted when she pushed my buttons, but I can't get out of it. I feel so lonely, still thinking how stupid I've been, how couldn't I shut up? She being cordial, but not affectionate, cold, but not nasty, as such,. It felt really good before, I relaxed, thought we were doing well, thought I had managed to make her feel I was behaving , that I was walking the right path, and then I go and say the wrong things to trigger this all off. I should have known better. My partner never forgets an insult or offence, she brings up everything, even the things I haven't done and makes it like I had. The good has been so nice I forgot to be careful, and now I'm reaping the whirlwind. She threatened that I was on my own now, that I would never make it on my own , has said that no one would love me as much or like her again. And now she is acting out her threat, she's treating me like a visitor in my own family and it's real agony.
It's great that you are learning about PDs. It's not stupid to want to have an open, relaxed conversation with a friend where you aren't walking on eggshells. It also could be that you made a mistake and did something you told her you wouldn't - if so, that's worth a little regret and an apology, but that's it - people make mistakes.
Based on what you are saying, it sounds like you believe that there is a path you can walk that won't trigger her - that her being angry is mainly about you and what you did, and not about her. You should consider the possibility that her feelings are actually about her much more than you, and that maybe there is no way for you to not trigger her (ie she will always find something to be offended about). Or, that the only way is to make yourself so small and show so little of yourself, that it's not a way you can actually live and be happy. The books I've read on abuse say that the #1 mistake of victims is to think that they can stop the abuse by not triggering the abuser. To think it's about the victim's actions, rather than the abusers issues.
Just something to consider. Also, from what I read, it's common for abusers to say that you can't make it on your own or no one will love you as much, and it's basically never true. You should read the statement as an attempt to dominate and control you and make you need her, whatever the psychic cost to you, not as a true evaluation of your character or relationship.
Feeling Sick have you read Codependent No More? That book helped me so much. I recommend it to every single person who is in an abusive/PD/alcoholic relationship. It really opened my eyes to so many things about myself.
Thank you for the book suggestions, I'm working my way through them. But , I think I can see just now a little clearer. He's withdrawing affection just now and I'm desperate for any crumb of that, but as we haven't had a discussion over what happened, it is up to me to ask to talk about it, and when he agrees, I am begging for forgiveness and for us to be back to .where we were . This is the pattern of our big arguments, it's always me having failed him and then having to promise not to do it again then he will be affectionate again and I'm relieved. These last few years have been bad as I have been on a development course, which he has not liked, and the job it results in, (which I have just started) he demeans, has said if I don't View it the way he does, then we are done , that it's a deal breaker for him. I tried to defend it but then collapsed and agreed to view it the he way he does. I have really really tried to do that, but in that FaceTime, he told my friend and me again what he thinks of what we do and he didn't hold back. I got defensive as I said and we are here.
Last year he told his love for me was like a fire, but if I kept behaving the way I did I would be putting out the fire permanently and that was fine by him if that was the Relationship that I wanted , because that would be what I got. Ever since then I have been trying not to do that, so why did he push those buttons knowing how I might be.
I have also seen how I have never had any of the power in this, it has always been up to him to decide what happens because I'm always begging for the crumbs. How come I've never seen this before, and what do I do. He has all the cards, whatever our relationship becomes he gets to choose.
I'm also frightened whether I ask to talk or whether I just keep silent and it's like this forever. It's a no win place to be and it's really scary. Just realised, so much for me trying to change details. .
Wow! What insight you have! You can see the dynamics of your relationship clearly. Now ask yourself - is that the kind of relationship that you want and that is good for you?
Thank you for this, I do find all of Everyone's posts really helpful, it's becoming a helpline for me. I think I am beginning to lift my head Out of the FOG, and maybe I have been denying a lot of it even since the first dates we had. I am remembering when I first met him my dad had just died and when I introduced him to my mom, I mentioned three things she would not appreciate him doing, to be careful and that she was vulnerable. Within the first few hours he had done ALL 3. When I asked him what it is about, he thought it was a bit funny, then that I hadn't really meant it, it wasn't that bad, and thar she would get over it.
How come I didn't I didn't have an ahahahaha moment!
I have also realised that when all these books talk of boundaries, mine have either been non existent or very loose and I do have a problem not holding them. Boy did I have Supply written on my head.
And now because of my blindness and actually my continued blindness, I am in this horrible state with two kids and no escape.
I don't want to live like this but don't think I have much choice just now and I'm afraid of making any decisions , I also don't know what would pacify him so he's not angry.
Sorry it's me again. Having a hard evening. I feel like I'm being played with like it's a horrible cat and mouse with me as the scared mouse. I am missing the intimacy soo much, how can he talk with me so easily as if there had been nothing and not miss that. Oh and of course it's all my fault. Having some insight doesn't make the pain go.im in hell at the moment, and even thinking of having the talk makes me sick, because I will have it all shoved down my throat, cos I did it didnt l? We need to have that talk but I'm soo scared , I think I'm still hoping that he will go back to being what he was a week ago ! It's such an overnight change! And yet if he hadn't said those things I wouldn't have got angry. I'm so conflicted
WTF he callled me baby WTF don't think it means anything
Its important to take responsibility for our emotions. Your anger is yours to own and be accountable for regardless of what he said.
Ime check out the toolbox. https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do
It helps to change our reactions to healthier regardless of what our pd does.
Thank you peanut butter.
Well we had our bust up and it is me, and how I treat him, make others think badly of him so much stuff , so detailed,, I forgot my truth , and apologised , tears, thought how horrible I was to live with, began to feel I should see a professional. He said he had no feelings left I had done that, he didn't want to feel nothing , but I had done it, I had destroyed my best friend. I completely gave in, was trashed. He told me what I had said that had finished it for him. By then I was so upside down I was thinking I was the true npd, and that maybe I was getting a twisted satisfaction from posting here.
I was feeling so bad that I did think everything was worthless, and no point in anything.
Then somehow, I remembered from here about the cycles and I what I had written earlier. It made things less black, later I found out that what he said I had said was not right.
Not sure where I am with anything just now, but maybe not so upside down.
I'm so sorry. I know how it is in these moments. I have referred to that business of whizzing things all around and somehow turning it into your fault as the "salad spinner". My therapist finds this hilariously apt.
You can't get caught up in that thing. I find writing stuff down helps me hang on to what's real and who actually did or said what. Because for sure that's all going in that salad spinner for a good whizzing, and it will never come out in your favor.
As I've said in some other posts, these days I have some all purpose statements written down, and I also have what I call "non committal noises" like ah and mmm hmmm and I see, and I extricate ASAP.
A long time ago, this nonsense led me to consider ending my life. I never want to think those things ever again. So I've had some therapy and these boards and other support groups. It can really turn stuff around. You don't have to be Led by their nonsense.
I hope you keep coming here no matter what.
I can remember the anihilation of my spirit once I would give in to my pd's reality. I think it got easier with time but probably only because I disconnected and numbed myself more and more to survive it. Its hard to hold onto your truth. Especially if you are isolated. He constantly told me about how much other people we knew told him I sucked and asked him why he was with me. At the time I didnt know about npd or bpd or even malicious, manipulative people existing.
I want you to read the following words out loud feelingsick.
'(You) "I am not the person he is identifying me as. Even if he truly believes what he is saying about me, its because of his unackowledged core wounds that he NEEDS to put me in this role so he can unconciously repeat the disfunction that was his upbringing.
Who I am at the core of my being is NOT changed no matter how many times he does this.
I forgive myself for giving in and apologising just to get peace. I DESERVE PEACE!"
IME next time youll notice the signs a little sooner and will eventually be able to medium chill instead of react in anger. Thats what you can do. It will help. He might never change. But you can! You are not a burden. Your children love and need you!
I am really struggling, I've been reading a lot about narcissistic abuse, and I'm now starting to get really confused and upside down. A lot of the stuff I'm reading that is a feature of npd's, is what he says I've done to him! Now, he's talking but withholding all affection, saying he's numb, and that I've killed the love he had for me.
I know I haven't done what he says , but I'm scared that maybe I have and I'm just lying to myself and it's me that's as horrible as he says! Most of the time I know it's not me, but sometimes i cant help thinking it is.
This coldness is terrible, I'm going to be living an empty, lonely existence, with him. I can't leave just now, I'm kind of stuck in this hell.
Sorry for all this misery.
I keep going over and over things, and see that he feels I betrayed him by my reaction, that I chose my friend over him. Having friends was ok so long as I don't talk about anything with them, everything should stay in private.
My ex used to get irrationally upset when I spoke to my friends. He’d also feel betrayed. The thing is that that was his issue. I made it mine though and twisted myself in to knots trying to appease him.
If I was out with friends my ex would find an excuse to join us. “Oh I was just in the neighborhood” he would do this to make sure I wasn’t talking about him. He made such a big deal about any contact I had with others that eventually I stopped seeing anyone else. My life became my ex and when I left I had zero support structure. Of course I took much longer to leave because of this.
What you are describing is domestic abuse. Your partner is abusing you. You haven’t done anything wrong and nothing you can do will appease him long term and he will only find more to blame you for.
I always recommend calling a domestic abuse line. It’s something I really wish I’d done earlier.
I think I remember posting on one of your threads a while back about reading “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. While, like most books on domestic abuse, it’s written for women he explains how the advice in it and the form domestic abuse takes is the same in a relationship with two men and it is in a relationship between a man and a woman. I found this book really helpful in understanding it wasn’t me, it was him. A domestic help line will be able to advise you on other resources. I only know about the one’s I used to help me.
I’m sorry for the pain you are in.
I really think you should take the advice GettingOOTF gave. I dont think this is something you can deal with on your own when your in the thick of it.
I spent 13 years with my abuser. I was in opposite world with him. I was so influenced by his emotional torture of me that I accepted his reality.
Just one example is he cheated on me with my bf. He then broke up with me when I found out. After he broke up with me he left town. He went and stayed with his exgf when he was out of town.
I went out on 2 dates with the same guy that weekend on friday and saturday night.
As soon as ex got back he called me. He wanted me back. I said oh my wth ive started dating someone.
HE WAS DEVASTATED! For the rest of our relationship he tortured me emotionally with his version of reality 'that I had betrayed him'. That he was the only one who got hurt by those circumstsnces... and on and on. I tried to defend myself in the very beginning. But eventually I came to accept the blame for breaking his heart and felt guilty.
This is how I know what you mean when you say you are getting confused and thinking it may be you.
I wish I had reached out for help. I instead suffered silently for years with the end result of no self worth, deppression, anxiety, and addiction.
Please continue your search for answers. We are all here for you in spirit.
Thank you both for your kind words. It's not easy to get any privacy at the moment, so helplines wouldn't be much use for me, so it's more of me trying to find some kind of peace in my own head. I'm finding the careless, deliberate cruelty of cuddling the kids, interacting with them normally but only talking with me when he has to or when he wants to talk AT me, almost unbearable .
There is NO affection at all. It is really lonely and such a contrast between how our previous good week has been. I wish he had gone, it would have been easier to deal with.
With this lockdown, there is no chance to get out on my own, no opportunity to speak on the phone. It's like being an unwanted guest in my own home.
And there is this pervasive, undercurrent of judgement, bubbling anger and I think dislike all directed at me. But I know if I said anything, it would all be turned around and be my fault and that my behaviour has caused all of this. It is so painful, I can't even talk freely with anyone, for fear he will hear and then I will just be confirming all he has accused me of. It's a no win, catch 22 and I can't even find that amusing. Sorry I'm just lost and hurting.
Quote from: Feeling sick on May 18, 2020, 03:36:43 PM
It's not easy to get any privacy at the moment, so helplines wouldn't be much use for me, so it's more of me trying to find some kind of peace in my own head.
I think that is a wise goal for now. This is what you control : your thoughts and your reactions. You can find inner peace this way ime.
QuoteI'm finding the careless, deliberate cruelty of cuddling the kids, interacting with them normally but only talking with me when he has to or when he wants to talk AT me, almost unbearable .
There is NO affection at all. It is really lonely and such a contrast between how our previous good week has been. I wish he had gone, it would have been easier to deal with.
The silent treatment is such a cruel tactic. My ubpdM used it often. This is a good article. In part it explains the effects on your brain of silent treatment https://www.heysigmund.com/the-silent-treatment
QuoteWith this lockdown, there is no chance to get out on my own, no opportunity to speak on the phone. It's like being an unwanted guest in my own home.
And there is this pervasive, undercurrent of judgement, bubbling anger and I think dislike all directed at me. But I know if I said anything, it would all be turned around and be my fault and that my behaviour has caused all of this. It is so painful, I can't even talk freely with anyone, for fear he will hear and then I will just be confirming all he has accused me of. It's a no win, catch 22 and I can't even find that amusing. Sorry I'm just lost and hurting.
Dont worry about apologising for your feelings here. We support you! You have every right to your pain and im so sorry you cant express or talk about it.
My ex used to tell me that I was the reason we didn't have any friends. That I simply wasn't a friendly person. I'd bring up all these times people I met at parties gave me their number and wanted to hang out again, invited me to join their book club, brunch group or go see a movie we'd discussed with them.
He's say "they are just being polite, you don't see how uncomfortable you make people".
For years I thought I was this awful person that people simply politely tolerated. Now I see that he was vomiting his own insecurities all over me.
People love hanging out with me. I'm witty, charming, smart, a total laugh and all round awesome company.
But I had to push past what my ex put on me and see those things for myself.
I see a lot of my relationship with my ex in your relationship with your partner. I hope you are able to see who you really are. It's not who he's telling you you are.
What Out of the FOG says is something I've had to learn, also. Still working on it. Who updh says I am, is not who I am at all. Nobody thinks any of that weird, awful stuff about me. Well, maybe HE does, but who cares!!!
People really enjoy my ....gosh how did somebody say it... exuberant quirkiness, or something to that effect. Fun, refreshing, sunshine; these are all things that OTHERS say about me. They LIKE that stuff and want me around more often. I might be exuberant, but peopling is exhausting to me, so I have to choose wisely. Just know that you, too can employ the kindergarten nonsense that PD so often quotes: "I'm rubber you're glue, bounces off me and sticks to you!" "I know you are, but what am I?"
Except he says "I could say the same thing about you!"
For EVERYTHING. Even if it doesn't make a lick of sense!
You are BETTER than any of that!
Not sure if this is all part of the dance, but either my pd forgot himself and showed a little bit of affection, ( and then withdrawn again) or I've been sucked in again as I wait desperately for any crumb. I was appologising for my despicable behaviour, which I must be. given what I have done, and I'm here again upside down not knowing what world I'm in. Having the vision of what it could have been , had I not destroyed it , in front of me is soul destroying, painful doesn't describe it. The fact that I am left with an empty shell which is my fault is continually demonstrated. But, if I am this bad surely I need help, surely my admitting I need help is a good sign, but it doesn't seem to be taken up.
I would dig into anything self help I could get my hands on. Not so he'll forgive you but so you are better able to cope and move through your grief.
I second what Peanutbutter said.
It's not a popular option and honestly it triggered me no end when I first heard about it but for years and years I looked to change others. I couldn't understand why they treated me the way they did. I learned that you cannot change others only yourself. For me my issue wasn't how others treated me it was that I stayed and put up with it, that I fought to change them instead of changing myself. I came to see that I too had many issues I carried with me from how I grew up.
I look back now and I can't understand why I fought so hard to stay in such a toxic situation. With some more work I'm starting to see it but it's still perplexing to me.
Turn your focus inward, build some skills and strength. At the very least it will help you to deal with him better. For me it gave me an entirely new life.
I'm sorry for your pain. I've been there myself.
Do you know if nate postlethwait? He's known mainly for the story of his childhood but recently he changed his focus and does life coaching. I follow him on Instagram and Twitter. He talks a lot about building self esteem. IG and Twitter are great for those things when you are worried about being caught reading a book.
I have a small toy mouse in a shelf as a reminder to myself to not take the bait, a frequent struggle for me with my in-laws. It's so easy to get sucked into the nonsense. It sounds to me like you are being baited into this chaos and drama. I re-read the medium chill section often and find it helps. I recommend taking a look at that and grey rock techniques to stop rewarding his bad behavior.
Here is a link to more on medium chill/gray rock/robot mode I keep nearby for reference and thought you may find useful.
http://www.kellevision.com/kellevision/2017/05/how-to-protect-yourself-from-a-cluster-bs-abuse-gray-rock-medium-chill-and-robot-mode.html