Should I take my 7 year old to see Dad when he has no interest?

[p123]

Probably seen my other thread....

Dad has NEVER had any interest in my kids. He seems to see them as an inconvenience taking up my time. Always has. He has zero relationship with them. Its sad but its his choice - his own grandkids hardly know him.
When I was smaller and wife worked, I'd take my youngest with me. She'd sit there good as gold with her headphones on. Dad would ignore her.  Occasionally, he'd even make a comment like "Oh you've brought her have you?"

Shes 7 now and a little angel and so full of energy. Hour round trip in the car and sitting there being ignored is not what she wants to do now.

I've started going to see him on weekday evenings. Hes now moaning I don't visit at weekends and he wants me to take him out for a ride in the car.

I've done this in the past with daughter. We've gone somewhere there's a park for her. Hes moaned the whole time. Many times hes sat in the car and sulked while I took her on the swings. Then he moans "I want to go home now". I remember the one time near Xmas, he moaned that she wanted to see Santa which meant he had to wait 5 mins and he wanted to go home. The trips is always all about him.

Anyway, my wife is working a lot of weekends now. Hes asked and I've told him no she doesn't want to come. Hes trying his best to say "bring her". Pretty rich since its me he wants to visit and not her. He always says "I need shopping" or "I want to see her", not once has he said he wants to see her. In fact, hes not seen her now, due to lockdown since February probably but hes not mentioned that at all, her older brother who's 16 probably for 2 years - all he wants is me to go there.

Wife is really annoyed and says its not fair to drag her there when she doesn't want to go, he, blatantly, does not want her to be there really either. She has a very good point.
I've never spoken to Dad about this - I know he would deny it anyway.....

Thats Dad all over. He is so obsessed with himself, what he needs, and what he needs other to do for him, he has no time to even think of other people.....

[lkdrymom]

Who cares if he denies it?  Do you seriously think he would ever admit to him being at fault in anything?

Just say it....Dad, you are too miserable to be around.  You want to be the center of my attention so I can't bring my kid, watch her and cater to you...so this is why you get Thursday evenings....take it or leave it. I've had enough.  I am doing my best but it is never enough for you. I might as well stop even trying because there is really no pleasing you.  (Mike drop....then get up and leave and let it sink in for him)

[GettingOOTF]

You can choose to use this time your wife is at work to build your relationship with your daughter or you can choose to continue this dance with your father. The choice is 100% yours.

Your wife is right, this is not fair on your daughter and  it's not fair on your wife to have this stress, annoyance and worry that her daughter is unhappy when she has to work.

Your daughter will carry the memories of her childhood with her for the rest of her life, they will influence every single decision she makes as an adult. What do you want these memories to be? How do you want her to feel about where she fits in in your priorities?

[Adrianna]

The answer is no. Don't bring her.

You know your father doesn't care about her.

Look at those of us who are still unraveling the trauma of our childhoods.
Do you want that for your daughter?
Because these experiences leave a mark.

Do you want her also to grow up thinking abuse is ok? Or that abuse equals love?

I know someone whose father was narcissistic. She catered to him. Her daughter grew up watching this dynamic between her mother and grandfather. She later married a narcissist who ended up being verbally, emotionally and physically abusive. Who knows if it was 100% because of what she had seen modeled but I doubt it helped.

Children of narcissistic parents, especially girls, grow up thinking abuse equals love. It's not uncommon for them to become codependent and fall for a narcissist, unconsciously trying to get it right this time, trying to get love from someone who can't love them back.

If they see a parent playing out that dynamic with a grandparent, they are also learning that lesson.

Model healthy boundaries for your daughter. Keep her away from toxic people. Let her know that no one should control another person through fear, obligation and guilt. The fog we talk about. She's watching your situation whether you realize it or not. You have a chance to turn this around. Do you want your daughter to grow up to be strong, with a sense of self and boundaries? Start modeling that for her.

At age 7 she's taking in more than you realize of this. Please keep her away from your father. I can't stress this enough. Not only to keep her away from him, but to prevent her from watching the unhealthy dynamic between you and your father. No good will come of it to have her watch you get manipulated, guilted and angry all in the name of trying to care for someone who is supposed to love you back. That's  not love but she will grow up thinking it is, and may play out that in her later relationships, always trying to be a people pleaser and valuing others before herself.

[nanotech]

The answer is no. Don't bring her.

You know your father doesn't care about her.

Look at those of us who are still unraveling the trauma of our childhoods.
Do you want that for your daughter?
Because these experiences leave a mark.

Do you want her also to grow up thinking abuse is ok? Or that abuse equals love?

I know someone whose father was narcissistic. She catered to him. Her daughter grew up watching this dynamic between her mother and grandfather. She later married a narcissist who ended up being verbally, emotionally and physically abusive. Who knows if it was 100% because of what she had seen modeled but I doubt it helped.

Children of narcissistic parents, especially girls, grow up thinking abuse equals love. It's not uncommon for them to become codependent and fall for a narcissist, unconsciously trying to get it right this time, trying to get love from someone who can't love them back.

If they see a parent playing out that dynamic with a grandparent, they are also learning that lesson.

Model healthy boundaries for your daughter. Keep her away from toxic people. Let her know that no one should control another person through fear, obligation and guilt. The fog we talk about. She's watching your situation whether you realize it or not. You have a chance to turn this around. Do you want your daughter to grow up to be strong, with a sense of self and boundaries? Start modeling that for her.

At age 7 she's taking in more than you realize of this. Please keep her away from your father. I can't stress this enough. Not only to keep her away from him, but to prevent her from watching the unhealthy dynamic between you and your father. No good will come of it to have her watch you get manipulated, guilted and angry all in the name of trying to care for someone who is supposed to love you back. That's  not love but she will grow up thinking it is, and may play out that in her later relationships, always trying to be a people pleaser and valuing others before herself.

Adrianna is right
Out of the FOG  is right.
You're feeling a rush of something warm and fuzzy, because your dad has said 'bring her.'

I've had three kids.
When they hit the age of seven ,kids get easier to manage.
You've said that last visit, she sat in the corner on her tablet. Your dad will have noticed that too.
They tolerate grandkids when they become what THEY would call (because it's often how they see it)  ''more invisible.'
Seen and not heard. 
The other reason of course is that your dad sees that he hasn't a choice.
It's either that, or no visit at all.  Your boundary there, has worked. So, he's trying a counter play- he's moved his position on grandkids. Apparently.  He's softened it. APPARENTLY.

But HE hasn't softened.

I wouldn't take her for these reasons.

1. Even if to begin with, he's on best behaviour, children sense when they are not 'seen' or valued.
2. He may abuse you in front of her. It just takes one comment.
3. He may abuse her in front of you. It just takes one comment.

He hasn't just decided now, to notice her. Not in my view. He has a use for her.
They use grandchildren as pawns.
Its simply to get you to visit. She's a means to an end.

[nanotech]

P123 I've just re read what I wrote. I hope I've not been too direct. 
I'm further in the process along than you.
I used to have hope too, it's another thing we get programmed for.  Another button for them to press.
I recently read Sherrie Campbell 's
'But It's Your Family.'
Great book  and she talks about the 'Hope is Dope' concept.
They chuck us small rewards to give us hope that it's going to lead to some love and approval. It doesn't. It often sets us up for a bigger fall.

[p123]

The answer is no. Don't bring her.

You know your father doesn't care about her.

Look at those of us who are still unraveling the trauma of our childhoods.
Do you want that for your daughter?
Because these experiences leave a mark.

Do you want her also to grow up thinking abuse is ok? Or that abuse equals love?

I know someone whose father was narcissistic. She catered to him. Her daughter grew up watching this dynamic between her mother and grandfather. She later married a narcissist who ended up being verbally, emotionally and physically abusive. Who knows if it was 100% because of what she had seen modeled but I doubt it helped.

Children of narcissistic parents, especially girls, grow up thinking abuse equals love. It's not uncommon for them to become codependent and fall for a narcissist, unconsciously trying to get it right this time, trying to get love from someone who can't love them back.

If they see a parent playing out that dynamic with a grandparent, they are also learning that lesson.

Model healthy boundaries for your daughter. Keep her away from toxic people. Let her know that no one should control another person through fear, obligation and guilt. The fog we talk about. She's watching your situation whether you realize it or not. You have a chance to turn this around. Do you want your daughter to grow up to be strong, with a sense of self and boundaries? Start modeling that for her.

At age 7 she's taking in more than you realize of this. Please keep her away from your father. I can't stress this enough. Not only to keep her away from him, but to prevent her from watching the unhealthy dynamic between you and your father. No good will come of it to have her watch you get manipulated, guilted and angry all in the name of trying to care for someone who is supposed to love you back. That's  not love but she will grow up thinking it is, and may play out that in her later relationships, always trying to be a people pleaser and valuing others before herself.

Adrianna is right
Out of the FOG  is right.
You're feeling a rush of something warm and fuzzy, because your dad has said 'bring her.'

I've had three kids.
When they hit the age of seven ,kids get easier to manage.
You've said that last visit, she sat in the corner on her tablet. Your dad will have noticed that too.
They tolerate grandkids when they become what THEY would call (because it's often how they see it)  ''more invisible.'
Seen and not heard. 
The other reason of course is that your dad sees that he hasn't a choice.
It's either that, or no visit at all.  Your boundary there, has worked. So, he's trying a counter play- he's moved his position on grandkids. Apparently.  He's softened it. APPARENTLY.

But HE hasn't softened.

I wouldn't take her for these reasons.

1. Even if to begin with, he's on best behaviour, children sense when they are not 'seen' or valued.
2. He may abuse you in front of her. It just takes one comment.
3. He may abuse her in front of you. It just takes one comment.

He hasn't just decided now, to notice her. Not in my view. He has a use for her.
They use grandchildren as pawns.
Its simply to get you to visit. She's a means to an end.

Oh yes definitely Nano. In the past, its become obvious he'd rather I didn't bring her. If I took him out in the car he'd rather it was all about him with little time allocated to do what she wants.

Well aware, that this new stance is because he knows I can't come otherwise. Its sickening, isnt it?
Like I said, hes not seen my oldest for almost two years, my youngest probably February but, even though hes full on with me, hes not mentioned hes missed them at all.

He asks on the phone. But he never used to. It does sound like a duty now when he says it, sort of like, "I'd better ask how everyone is".

The only time he mentions my wife and her not seeing him (its been over 2 years) was when he got this idea in his head that she should phone him to wish him happy birthday. That was all about trying to make her "do her duty" and pay homage to thing. Went on for weeks about that one!

[p123]

P123 I've just re read what I wrote. I hope I've not been too direct. 
I'm further in the process along than you.
I used to have hope too, it's another thing we get programmed for.  Another button for them to press.
I recently read Sherrie Campbell 's
'But It's Your Family.'
Great book  and she talks about the 'Hope is Dope' concept.
They chuck us small rewards to give us hope that it's going to lead to some love and approval. It doesn't. It often sets us up for a bigger fall.

No no you're spot on !!!!

[nanotech]

As a granny who couldn't see my grandkids for months, when I did see finally see them I was very emotional. My heart had ached for them the whole time. I mean literally.
I would wake up pining for them. After FaceTime I'd have to go off and cry for a while.
Hubby felt the loss just as much as me. It's a loss and it felt like a loss.So it isn't just a granny thing.
Sigh. I think my dad really really loved my mum, but that was it. It was my mum who wanted kids. My dad didn't want any! His mum (classic NPD) told him not to have any because children 'drag you down.' But my dad would do anything for my mum. So kids happened.

[p123]

As a granny who couldn't see my grandkids for months, when I did see finally see them I was very emotional. My heart had ached for them the whole time. I mean literally.
I would wake up pining for them. After FaceTime I'd have to go off and cry for a while.
Hubby felt the loss just as much as me. It's a loss and it felt like a loss.So it isn't just a granny thing.
Sigh. I think my dad really really loved my mum, but that was it. It was my mum who wanted kids. My dad didn't want any! His mum (classic NPD) told him not to have any because children 'drag you down.' But my dad would do anything for my mum. So kids happened.

Yes wifes mum was the same... She missed the grandkids so much...

Like I said, Dad not at all, hes just not really mentioned them. If he was kicking off saying he hasn't seen his grandkids then I could understand. BUT, all he cares about is if I visit him and thats it.

I've always said, my kids are nothing to him. To him they're JUST my kids and thats it. Just things that get in the way a bit and prevent me from giving him my full attention.
Its just SO sad sometimes that he is so obessed with himself and what he wants.

As I've said before, my brother has got 3 kids from 2 different partners he doesnt see. Just does not bother. Dad likes this I think.

[nanotech]

It is sad and also hurtful. It's something we have to accept, for our own sake. We just have to.
They may not be able to help it, but it still isn't easy to get over.
I deal with it by not expecting anything from him in the way of showing affection for  his grandkids and great grandkids.
He had more patience with the grandkids but that was usually to please my mum, who though I think was undiagnosed BPD, wasn't NPD like dad and did show some love for the grandchildren.
It really shows in how he treats the great grandkids.
I've seen him greatly irritated by them. (what child doesn't make a noise on a bouncy castle?)
Af a family party, my son saw my dad mime a shout of ' Shuuuuuut UPPPP!' behind his hand, so that GCbrother could see, but no one else (or so he thought) . It was done with much energy and spitefulness.
My two granddaughters were just being children ( laughing and squealing a bit ) playing  on the bouncy castle.
He did it again, and my husband saw him that time.
He's not that subtle these days.
It really changed my husband's  view of him. Prior to that he had tried to see the best in him and he often asked me to try to do the same.
Same with my son. He suddenly believed me.
'You were right mum. I couldn't believe he did that.'
My 6 years old grandkids were not disturbing anyone. Bouncy castles create noise in children. They were both climbing as far up the sides as they could, then hanging on like demented spiders until they had to fall and bounce!  A good game!
As kids will.
I'm starting to understand why I grew up so quiet.
I can't believe he hasn't seen your son for two years.
I'm so glad my granddaughters didn't hear him or see him do that that day.
The best thing to remember is, we are not like them.

[p123]

It is sad and also hurtful. It's something we have to accept, for our own sake. We just have to.
They may not be able to help it, but it still isn't easy to get over.
I deal with it by not expecting anything from him in the way of showing affection for  his grandkids and great grandkids.
He had more patience with the grandkids but that was usually to please my mum, who though I think was undiagnosed BPD, wasn't NPD like dad and did show some love for the grandchildren.
It really shows in how he treats the great grandkids.
I've seen him greatly irritated by them. (what child doesn't make a noise on a bouncy castle?)
Af a family party, my son saw my dad mime a shout of ' Shuuuuuut UPPPP!' behind his hand, so that GCbrother could see, but no one else (or so he thought) . It was done with much energy and spitefulness.
My two granddaughters were just being children ( laughing and squealing a bit ) playing  on the bouncy castle.
He did it again, and my husband saw him that time.
He's not that subtle these days.
It really changed my husband's  view of him. Prior to that he had tried to see the best in him and he often asked me to try to do the same.
Same with my son. He suddenly believed me.
'You were right mum. I couldn't believe he did that.'
My 6 years old grandkids were not disturbing anyone. Bouncy castles create noise in children. They were both climbing as far up the sides as they could, then hanging on like demented spiders until they had to fall and bounce!  A good game!
As kids will.
I'm starting to understand why I grew up so quiet.
I can't believe he hasn't seen your son for two years.
I'm so glad my granddaughters didn't hear him or see him do that that day.
The best thing to remember is, we are not like them.

Nano - thats awful. Exactly what my Dad would do....

I mentioned in the past, we'd take him for a drive to a country park. There was a kids park there. 30 mins drive...

My daughter would go on the swings and after 5 mins he'd be shouting over "come on shes had enough time". One xmas they had santa there in the visitor center. £2 to see santa. He did not want to wait - tried to tell my daughter "you dont have time to see santa we've got to go". Then he argued with me that it was a waste of money and she could see santa again.
Several times on these trips I'd stick him back int he car for half an hour and take daughter to the park, and he'd have a massive mood on then.

[nanotech]

It is sad and also hurtful. It's something we have to accept, for our own sake. We just have to.
They may not be able to help it, but it still isn't easy to get over.
I deal with it by not expecting anything from him in the way of showing affection for  his grandkids and great grandkids.
He had more patience with the grandkids but that was usually to please my mum, who though I think was undiagnosed BPD, wasn't NPD like dad and did show some love for the grandchildren.
It really shows in how he treats the great grandkids.
I've seen him greatly irritated by them. (what child doesn't make a noise on a bouncy castle?)
Af a family party, my son saw my dad mime a shout of ' Shuuuuuut UPPPP!' behind his hand, so that GCbrother could see, but no one else (or so he thought) . It was done with much energy and spitefulness.
My two granddaughters were just being children ( laughing and squealing a bit ) playing  on the bouncy castle.
He did it again, and my husband saw him that time.
He's not that subtle these days.
It really changed my husband's  view of him. Prior to that he had tried to see the best in him and he often asked me to try to do the same.
Same with my son. He suddenly believed me.
'You were right mum. I couldn't believe he did that.'
My 6 years old grandkids were not disturbing anyone. Bouncy castles create noise in children. They were both climbing as far up the sides as they could, then hanging on like demented spiders until they had to fall and bounce!  A good game!
As kids will.
I'm starting to understand why I grew up so quiet.
I can't believe he hasn't seen your son for two years.
I'm so glad my granddaughters didn't hear him or see him do that that day.
The best thing to remember is, we are not like them.

Nano - thats awful. Exactly what my Dad would do....

I mentioned in the past, we'd take him for a drive to a country park. There was a kids park there. 30 mins drive...

My daughter would go on the swings and after 5 mins he'd be shouting over "come on shes had enough time". One xmas they had santa there in the visitor center. £2 to see santa. He did not want to wait - tried to tell my daughter "you dont have time to see santa we've got to go". Then he argued with me that it was a waste of money and she could see santa again.
Several times on these trips I'd stick him back int he car for half an hour and take daughter to the park, and he'd have a massive mood on then.

Yes, they try to dish out punishing behaviour if they don't get their way.
They don't understand a basic truth- that children have to come first. It's up to us adults to help children find their way in the world. They are small and vulnerable, and they need to learn so much. They rely on us, when small, to totally put their needs before our own.
Pushes on swings ( more than 5 mins!), being screechy on a bouncy castle and seeing Santa etc, can be just as important as three meals a day and a roof.
It's upsetting and it's disappointing. How they are around little ones- little ones they are related to!
It's their intolerance of any kind of child -like behaviour from children that really gets to me. Yet they then behave very childishly in response! ( moodiness, fussiness)

[nanotech]

It is sad and also hurtful. It's something we have to accept, for our own sake. We just have to.
They may not be able to help it, but it still isn't easy to get over.
I deal with it by not expecting anything from him in the way of showing affection for  his grandkids and great grandkids.
He had more patience with the grandkids but that was usually to please my mum, who though I think was undiagnosed BPD, wasn't NPD like dad and did show some love for the grandchildren.
It really shows in how he treats the great grandkids.
I've seen him greatly irritated by them. (what child doesn't make a noise on a bouncy castle?)
Af a family party, my son saw my dad mime a shout of ' Shuuuuuut UPPPP!' behind his hand, so that GCbrother could see, but no one else (or so he thought) . It was done with much energy and spitefulness.
My two granddaughters were just being children ( laughing and squealing a bit ) playing  on the bouncy castle.
He did it again, and my husband saw him that time.
He's not that subtle these days.
It really changed my husband's  view of him. Prior to that he had tried to see the best in him and he often asked me to try to do the same.
Same with my son. He suddenly believed me.
'You were right mum. I couldn't believe he did that.'
My 6 years old grandkids were not disturbing anyone. Bouncy castles create noise in children. They were both climbing as far up the sides as they could, then hanging on like demented spiders until they had to fall and bounce!  A good game!
As kids will.
I'm starting to understand why I grew up so quiet.
I can't believe he hasn't seen your son for two years.
I'm so glad my granddaughters didn't hear him or see him do that that day.
The best thing to remember is, we are not like them.

Nano - thats awful. Exactly what my Dad would do....

I mentioned in the past, we'd take him for a drive to a country park. There was a kids park there. 30 mins drive...

My daughter would go on the swings and after 5 mins he'd be shouting over "come on shes had enough time". One xmas they had santa there in the visitor center. £2 to see santa. He did not want to wait - tried to tell my daughter "you dont have time to see santa we've got to go". Then he argued with me that it was a waste of money and she could see santa again.
Several times on these trips I'd stick him back int he car for half an hour and take daughter to the park, and he'd have a massive mood on then.

Yes, they try to dish out punishing behaviour if they don't get their way.
They don't understand a basic truth- that children have to come first. It's up to us adults to help children find their way in the world. They are small and vulnerable, and they need to learn so much. They rely on us, when small, to totally put their needs before our own.
Pushes on swings ( more than 5 mins!), being screechy on a bouncy castle and seeing Santa etc, are just as important-if not more, as three meals a day and a roof.
It's upsetting and it's disappointing. How they are around little ones- little ones they are related to!
It's their intolerance of any kind of child -like behaviour from children that really gets to me. Yet they then behave very childishly in response! ( moodiness, fussiness)