Is no contact the only way

[Adrianna]

I've been on this board off and on for several years. I know about gray rock, etc. I know the importance of boundaries, self worth, and valuing ourselves. I am very familiar with personality disorders.

I have yet to hear a story of anyone who can remain in full or low contact with the pd person and live a peaceful life. I'm wondering if anyone has any stories on that. To be clear I am NOT looking to go this route. I am and will remain no contact when possible or very very very low contact when not possible. I seem to have no peace in my life when in regular communication with the pd person.

I'm wondering if you all agree or have any examples of someone making it work to be in regular communication with the person.

p123 comes to mind. He's struggling plenty because he's still in the thick of it with regular contact. I think if I was still in regular contact I'd be still stuck in frustration, anger and bitterness too, even after all the work I've done on myself and even with the knowledge.

I truly feel that limiting or eliminating contact with a person who has an extreme pd is literally an act of self love to save our own sanity and well-being.

Just looking for input from others.

[moglow]

I think it depends on the people involved and which behaviors the PD is most comfortable with. There's a vast difference to me in mother being an annoyance and the flat-out vicious bs thars too comfortable for her. I could pretty much tune out the whining and demands, but when mother goes/went full on queen/witch, decimating every and anyone in the vicinity, I'm done. I remove myself now rather than trying to reason with her as in years past.

With mine, I've gone back and forth between very limited to no contact for several years now. No contact for/to mother is silent treat(ment), reserved for when I refuse to submit or play her foolish games. I'm good with that, to be honest. I'm not subjected to the incessant bitterness and spite, don't hear her judgments of me and others. I'm a more peaceful, gentle human the longer I'm away from her, and that's more telling than anything.

Being mother's "friend" however briefly it lasts, means that you have to agree with everything she says and that's just exhausting. It's also dishonest and leads to a lot of jaw-clenching teeth-grinding stomach-churning after effects that aren't worth it. The instant you stand up for yourself or others, or just refuse to pretend in order to placate her, all hell breaks loose and rains down on your head.
I fully support whatever anyone chooses, with the caveat that one size doesn't and never will fit all. What "works" or is at least manageable for me won't be for others, depending on where they are. It took decades of work and practice and a lot of tears to get where I am now. Unfortunately it also means I don't trust easily, hold people at arms length, and would often rather be alone than take a chance with others.

[Adrianna]

"I'm a more peaceful, gentle human the longer I'm away from her, and that's more telling than anything."

I feel this way too.

I want to stress that I'm talking about dealing with people at the extreme end of the pd scale, not someone with a Mild form of a Personality disorder or just traits of it.  I understand those relationships should be able to be managed more easily with tools.

[Psuedonym]

Hey Adrianna,

I think it has to do, as moglow said, with the particular person with the PD, what type of behavior they tend towards, but also important your own peace of mind/well being is.

If you're dealing with an ignoring type of PD, for instance, as soon as you don't do what they want or prove less than useful, they'll ditch you for someone else and the problem sort of solves itself. However, if you have a clinging, parasitic sort of PD, who thinks you OWE THEM and tramples over every boundary you try to put up, it's a different story. In that scenario you're constantly defending yourself and dodging their attempts to attack you.

In my case, when my dad was alive and I lived on the other side of the country, it was managable, because I could get away with talking to her once a week and my dad was the major source of supply (which is probably what hastened his death, to be honest). I still hated talking to her and it still affected me, but i could deal with it. Sometimes she'd be in a good mood and the conversation went fine, which was a relief, sometimes it was the surly/depressed/angry victim and I was somehow to blame for everything. You just never knew what you were going to get. After my dad got really sick, they moved within five minutes of me, and my dad died, it got infinitely worse. I lasted about a year putting up with the multiple calls a day, stupid invented emergencies and errands, and seeing her a couple of times a week. My mental and physical health suffered a lot. I was constantly suppressing an immense amount of rage, I had a constant headache for over a year, and I felt a sense of impending doom at all times. I began to be afraid of the phone: first I turned the ringer off, then I'd put it face down so I wouldn't see the screen light up, and then I didn't even want to be in the same room with it. My H said that whenever either of our phones would ring and i was sitting next to him he could feel my whole body tense up, something that I wasn't even aware of. Eventually things spun up to a point where I truly thought I was on the verge of a nervous collapse and I went NC. I started having panic attacks. My therapist at the time said if i hadn't shown up for that appointment with H with me she would have recommended I spend some time in a hospital.

When I went NC, I felt infitinitely better, but the anxiety truly didn't go away until Negatron died in late May. That was the real turning point; I'm not sure even now that its totally sunk in that I don't have to deal with that ever again.

I think, as many people have pointed out, any  contact you have with a truly disordered person is damaging. Richard Grannon has an excellent new video on overcoming people pleasing (which all of us here know a lot about): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvQvzasNHVI. Not to give anything away, but the first 3 tips are: 1. Put yourself first, 2. Deal with your guilt, and 3. Accept other people suffering. A disordered victim type is going to make sure they do everything they can to undermine all that: making you feel guilty for not fixing their unhappiness and putting them before everything else. Grey Rock and MC help avoid blowups, but that internal struggle with feelings of anger/rage/guilt/shame/hopelessness/helplessness is still there. Its exhausting, in my experience. I think Pete Walker, Jerry Wise, Richard Grannon and Kris Godinez would all recommend removing yourself as much as possible from the source of trauma as you can. How far away that is is of course up to you, be it limited contact or no contact at all. I think some people would argue that you can detach yourself enough so that you aren't affected by a PDs behavior, but I myself did not find that to be true. Will be interested to see what other people have to say.

[Psuedonym]

Also, I feel that this statement you made is absolutely true: I truly feel that limiting or eliminating contact with a person who has an extreme pd is literally an act of self love to save our own sanity and well-being.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I agree, Pseudonym. Maybe you CAN be detached enough to be in contact with somebody who is so toxic, and some of us need to be (shared parenting for example), but why on earth would you CHOOSE to be?

I ask my DH that when he starts up on my getting back in touch with his uPD parents and how surely I'm "healed enough to handle it," now. Maybe I could, but why would I choose that for myself? I haven't had a satisfactory answer yet. At least one that truly tempts me out of NC. I'm perfectly content with being here.

[GettingOOTF]

For me I found that the compromises I’d have to make to my own well-being were not worth the continued relationship.

Could I be LC or VLC with my FOO and my BPDxH? Sure I could. Would I be living a happy, calm and fulfilled life? No.

We choose what level of conflict and “drama” we allow in our lives. I have reached the point where my tolerance is close to zero.

NC is hard and I’m desperately sad and guilty I don’t have a relationship with it family but I am finally happy and proud of who I am.

On the scale of abuse the abuse I suffered probably wasn’t as “bad” as many here but it was bad enough for me to draw the NC line in the sand.

[MamaDryad]

I struggle with this question a lot, especially as I have learned recently that my mother is starting to decline cognitively.  For me, it comes down to a couple of things.

The first is what they would accept. In my mother's case, if I could just show up, help her with the logistical things she needs done and just be a friendly presence, without having to talk, I would do that in a heartbeat. But that would drive her batty; she would push and push to get a reaction from me. She needs the conflict and the drama.

The second, as previous posters have touched on, is how it affects me. Even NC, I struggle with anxiety and extreme negative self-judgement, and it was much worse when I was still trying to maintain LC/VLC. I also have a kid. I cannot be the parent he needs me to be with her in my ear and in my head.

[nanotech]

I'm VLC with dad but I think I cope okay because I've put boundaries up and he's had to accept them. Our family dysfunction is such that at a certain point of annoyance they back off, thinking they are ghosting me  and causing me pain.

Actually, I'm fine! 

GCbrother was a bit trickier, because he likes to bait and ghost. I stated my truth to him (flurry of narc rage from him) and... I'm NC with him now.

NC with Nsis too. She's histrionic and  malignant.  Why would I want to be around that?  When I first began to distance she invited herself to a family party, my daughter's family party (they will use your grown kids against you) where she hoovered me madly with sentimental reminders of our childhood experiences and games.
I medium -chilled that. #nicetry
Besides, she left out the part where she used to get her friends at school to make my life hell.
I was so happy when she left my primary school! I had three blissful years there after that!  No more bullying from my sister's cronies. She gaslighted me too on it. It came from them, not her.
But of course it was her.
NC is amazing. It's given me life.

If dad ever gets worse, it's curtains for him as well.

As it is, I limit phonecalls. I have boundaries on what I will and won't discuss. I call him out if I feel he's getting close to crossing a line.
I think deep down, he's realised that I'm no longer going to take the BS.

I also see him less and less. This has been easy this year. The last thing he wanted, during lockdown, was contact with any of us. Apart from GC brother of course. And his chiropodist and doctor!

[p123]

I've been on this board off and on for several years. I know about gray rock, etc. I know the importance of boundaries, self worth, and valuing ourselves. I am very familiar with personality disorders.

I have yet to hear a story of anyone who can remain in full or low contact with the pd person and live a peaceful life. I'm wondering if anyone has any stories on that. To be clear I am NOT looking to go this route. I am and will remain no contact when possible or very very very low contact when not possible. I seem to have no peace in my life when in regular communication with the pd person.

I'm wondering if you all agree or have any examples of someone making it work to be in regular communication with the person.

p123 comes to mind. He's struggling plenty because he's still in the thick of it with regular contact. I think if I was still in regular contact I'd be still stuck in frustration, anger and bitterness too, even after all the work I've done on myself and even with the knowledge.

I truly feel that limiting or eliminating contact with a person who has an extreme pd is literally an act of self love to save our own sanity and well-being.

Just looking for input from others.

Would love to go NC but its never going to happen. Hes just too manupulative and I've not got the courage.

[BeanerJane]

Personally, I couldn't do it.  The negativity, the demands on my time, energy and focus, the interrogations, conspiracy theories, and lectures about about my attitude/actions was exhausting.  There was no chill at any level.  She could sense when I was pulling back or stalling answering her and would ratchet up the FOG. 

After one particularly nasty exchange with her something inside me switched off.  It wasn't a conscious decision.  I needed a little break so I blocked her for a bit.  It was so pleasant I left the block going and four years later we're completely estranged.  I have moments where I remember the good things about her and I question if NC was the right thing to do.  Usually in the middle of the night when my brain says 'Hey! Instead of sleeping let's think about ALL THE THINGS you might regret!'  In the light of day though I don't hear that little voice. 

What I absolutely would regret is reconciling.  She feeds on other people's energy.  She triangulates people against each other gets joy from the chaos and anger she's generated.  I love my kids too much to let that pattern infect the next generation. 

I had a very kind aunt (MOO's sister) who was an important part of my life.  She kept an eye on me and knew first hand what MOO was about.  She told me 'I'll never be in the same room with her again.  She interrogates and analyzes me.  I don't deserve that and BeanerJane, neither do you.'  Looking back on that conversation I think she was giving me permission to drop the rope with MOO if and when it came time.  If she were still alive today I think she'd understand and support me.

[Sneezy]

I began to be afraid of the phone: first I turned the ringer off, then I'd put it face down so I wouldn't see the screen light up, and then I didn't even want to be in the same room with it.

This is exactly where I am right now.  When all the shelter in place stuff started, Mom was very upset.  I couldn't see her for about 8 weeks.  And so I promised to call every day to check on her.  I know, bad decision.  I am at a point now where I have to stop the daily calls.  And I'm letting a little white lie (or maybe it's a lie of omission) help me.  Our home phone stopped working a few weeks ago.  So I switched to using my cell all the time.  And I am one of those people whose cell is usually in the bottom of my purse and out of power.  As it turns out, the home phone has been fixed.  But I don't see any reason why I have to volunteer that info to mom.  She can keep calling and leaving messages on my cell, and I am trying my darndest not to call back, but rather to wait and space calls out to every other day. 

As far as the original poster's questions, I do think it is possible to have limited contact with a PD and make it work.  For me, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  My mom is declining, physically and also in some ways mentally.  It is only a matter of time, maybe a couple years at most, before she will need to be in a more restrictive care setting (assisted living or something similar).  Pretty soon, I won't be able to take her out (I can't lift her and she knows this).  I will continue to make sure she is safe and her needs are met. But as she declines, I've noticed that her behavior seems to be having less of an effect on me.  It's not a happy ending, but it will be an ending.  So, knowing that this is short term makes me able to handle having contact with her.  If she was in her fifties or sixties, no way.  I'd have to go VLC or NC.

[Adrianna]

Sneezy that's good that her behavior is having less of an effect on you as time goes on. In my case it was the opposite. My grandmother's pd, mixed with dementia, has made her intolerable.

Keep in mind though they can live a long time. My grandmother is 98 and has been "dying" for well over a decade. She just went into a nursing home last year at 97.

[nanotech]

I began to be afraid of the phone: first I turned the ringer off, then I'd put it face down so I wouldn't see the screen light up, and then I didn't even want to be in the same room with it.

This is exactly where I am right now.  When all the shelter in place stuff started, Mom was very upset.  I couldn't see her for about 8 weeks.  And so I promised to call every day to check on her.  I know, bad decision.  I am at a point now where I have to stop the daily calls.  And I'm letting a little white lie (or maybe it's a lie of omission) help me.  Our home phone stopped working a few weeks ago.  So I switched to using my cell all the time.  And I am one of those people whose cell is usually in the bottom of my purse and out of power.  As it turns out, the home phone has been fixed.  But I don't see any reason why I have to volunteer that info to mom.  She can keep calling and leaving messages on my cell, and I am trying my darndest not to call back, but rather to wait and space calls out to every other day. 

As far as the original poster's questions, I do think it is possible to have limited contact with a PD and make it work.  For me, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  My mom is declining, physically and also in some ways mentally.  It is only a matter of time, maybe a couple years at most, before she will need to be in a more restrictive care setting (assisted living or something similar).  Pretty soon, I won't be able to take her out (I can't lift her and she knows this).  I will continue to make sure she is safe and her needs are met. But as she declines, I've noticed that her behavior seems to be having less of an effect on me.  It's not a happy ending, but it will be an ending.  So, knowing that this is short term makes me able to handle having contact with her.  If she was in her fifties or sixties, no way.  I'd have to go VLC or NC.

White lies are our friend. Go for it every time. We've been robbed of a heathy upbringing and we need all the help we can to keep safe and well from their attempts to harass and emotionally abuse us.
The truths helps us too. I've a back condition which means I never be able to nurse my dad, who is late 80s and still independent as yet. There's no way you can lift your mum, so she will need professional long -term care when the time comes.