When you want to go NC but you can't

[Sneezy]

I know, if I really wanted to go NC with my mom I could.  But, she is 80 years old.  And she took a bad fall a couple years ago, and so I convinced her to move to senior living near me.  I now know that was a mistake because I didn't realize the full implications of her PD and the toll it would take on me.  Once she moved here, I convinced her to stop driving and give up her car.  That was definitely not a mistake.  She no longer has the physical capability to handle a car and it was only a matter of time before she got in an accident and hurt someone.

So now, she's here.  It's going on two years.  And I am miserable having to deal with her.  Until she moved near me I didn't realize that she lies constantly, that she is always negative, that everything is about her, and that she is a mean-spirited, hurtful, manipulative person.  Just talking to her on the phone makes me want to cry some days.  No matter what I do for her it isn't enough.  I have set boundaries, I regularly utilize medium chill.  I know what to do.  But I still feel like crying. 

The best thing for my mental health would be to go NC or at a minimum VLC.  But I can't imagine convincing my mom to move near me, taking away her car, and then going NC.  That just seems cruel.  Obviously, I have issues with co-dependency and needing others' approval and all that.  But I just can't do it.  So what do I do instead?  When she goes on and on about how awful everything is where she lives and how bored she is and how mean everyone is to her (with the implication that it's all my fault), then what?  Today, I called her and let her go on for a while and then just said "well, that's a shame."  She was actually stunned into silence for a few seconds. 

I get it - boundaries, medium chill, observe don't absorb, all that really good advice that truly does work.  But sometimes it's hard.

[illogical]

Hi Sneezy,

What I hear in your post is not that you can't go NC with your mother, but the time isn't right just now.  I totally get that.

My humble advice to you is to "compartmentalize" this situation.  Go through a day and log down the time you spend, either physically with her or talking to her, and the time you are spending thinking about her.  You might be surprised at how much of your day your mother has managed to commandeer.   

Then map out a plan to severely limit this time.  Cut down on the phone calls, the duration of calls, the visits, etc.  Then allow yourself, maybe 30 minutes total in your day you will spend thinking about your mother or her situation.   Could be 15 min. in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon or 30 minutes in the late afternoon.  But whenever you find yourself thinking about your mother, say to yourself "I'm not going to think about that now.  I'm going to wait until 10:00 a.m. (or 4:00 p.m., or whenever).  And when that time rolls around, set a timer.  Only think about your mother and her situation during the allotted time.  When that alarm goes off, you move on to thinking about something else until the next "allotted" time. 

It might also help you to cultivate a new creative interest-- cooking, sewing, art, music, nature walks, writing poetry, etc.-- that totally revolves around YOU and has nothing that involves your mother.  You could also give yourself little "rewards" like a nice soak in the tub, or a few minutes listening to relaxing music-- when you clear your head of all the stress your mother brings and focus on training your mind to go down positive, rather than negative, neural pathways.

Take care!

[Psuedonym]

Sneezy,

Believe me when I tell you I have been where you are. I too moved my parents (across the country!) to live in a senior living facility near me because my dad was very ill. And then my dad died, leaving me alone with her. He behavior was very similar to your mothers. And I went NC. I had to a certain point, it came down to choosing my mental and physical well being or hers and I chose me. She was 88 at that point. She died a year and a half later, never having acknowledging her any of her behavior.

Here are some weird truths to think on. They're hard to really believe at first but I believe very important. The first is the title of your post: When you want to go NC but you can't You know that's not true, as you admit later in your post. You are CHOOSING not to go NC because you believe the guilt you would feel if you did would be overwhelming and you couldn't stand it. This is an important distinction for several reasons and is actually good news because:

1. This is really about you and not your mother
2. Your irrational beliefs are running the show
3. You can change these beliefs

I would start by learning more about guilt, particularly false guilt. Jerry Wise has some great videos on this (look for his videos on systems feelings vs. real feelings. This video by Richard Grannon really knocks it out of the park: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvQvzasNHVI Tip no 1: Put yourself first. Tip no 2: Get over your guilt.

This was such an amazing quote that I wrote it down word for word:

This is a neurotic, conditioned, brainwashed compulsion to feel guilty...But because you've never been anybody else, and you've never lived the lived experience subjectively of other people's emotional reality, you don't know how guilt free other people feel....there's nothing to contrast it against, because you've never not felt this level of guilt.

Read that one a whole bunch of times. A healthy person with good boundaries, which none of us are, would not think it would be cruel to go NC with someone who abuses you and makes you miserable and refuses to acknowledge or change their behavior, regardless or their relationship. They would see that as a consequence of another adult's actions, and a choice on their part. Everybody gets to be responsible for their own feelings. Your mother doesn't actually need you to do anything. She lives in senior living which I'm guessing has transportation to things like the doctor and the grocery store and also has meals, etc. She expects you to be her therapist/punching bag/scapegoat/emotional garbage can, which is an entirely different thing.

By the way, I'm not telling you should go NC. That's a decision everybody must make for themselves and you know what's best for you. But as you learn more about false guilt, and realize that's what it is, it will help you set better boundaries. I'm guessing that you spend a great deal of time feeling sorry for or pity for your mother, and that's what leads you to spend more time than you'd like exposing yourself to this toxicity. Helping to reframe that will help you a great deal, I think. There's also a really good book on the subject, if you're a reader: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0010QI2LM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

I know that when I was in your situation, I felt like I was trapped in a nightmare and often helpless. Realize that you have more control than you think, and that your mother doesn't have to change for you to change how you feel.

[Psuedonym]

By the way, Sneezy, I remembered talking to you a few years back about how similar our mothers were....I went back and looked at your posts and boy was that a trip down unhappy memory lane! Yeesh. They're way too similar.

One thing I know we talked about was how much they lie. After I went NC my dear H stayed in contact and made sure she had her zillions of library books, groceries delivered, etc. She would tell him how lonely she was and had no one to talk to, blah blah blah (of course while refusing to admit she'd never done anything wrong.) After she died, H told the director of the facility this. She looked surprised and said 'really? She had quite the circle of friends here.' Later found out from my aunt that she would call her up to bitch about the new friends.

I will say that looking back at your posts that you've gone to heroic lengths to try to make your mother happier. You deserve some peace and quiet. Many hugs.

[SunnyMeadow]

Oh boy, do I ever understand these feelings Sneezy.

Boundaries, medium chill, observe don't absorb don't come easily to me either. I went NC with my uNPDm for about 3 or 4 months and holy cow, I was filled with guilt. It felt good, don't get me wrong but the underlying guilt was always there.

My mother sounds just the same as your mother. I really hate talking to her on the phone. An email or text is much better for me. If I don't have to hear her voice, I can cope must better when communicating with her. Everything is about my mother too, she's negative, pouty, waify and lies. Who wants to talk to someone like that?? Not many people. My uNPDm is even older than yours, lives in a 55+ area and has proceeded to make friends then dump them due to their perceived slights or her jealousy. She could be having a nice life but would rather live in 'poor me'.

I like illogical's advice to compartmentalize when dealing with your mother. I've been doing a version of this too and it's been helping. I say to myself, "wow, she's messed up and always has been. I can't change her so I have to stop thinking about her". NOT EASY.

Like psuedonym shared, there are many good videos on YouTube. I felt much stronger after learning about what goes on with a narcissist/PD person. It made me see it's her and not me. I really and truly can't help her so I've stopped trying. I listen to her, then go about my day.

[Starboard Song]

It can be VERY hard. That doesn't make you weak. This is actually hard.

Very good boundaries are your friend, but truly, in this personal care scenario nothing less than your own personal emotional strength will do. You are going to endure some amount of negativity, and no boundary in the world will suffice to protect you, given the situation.

You are going to need to build up your strength. I am so sorry you have to deal with this. And you're right: of course you could choose to go NC, even now. But I hope we all will respect your decision either way.

[Sneezy]

You are all so helpful - thank you!  I am reading and re-reading your responses and taking it all to heart.

Based on something Pseudonym said, I looked back at my past posts.  Wow, I have been posting pretty much the same thing over and over about my mom for quite some time.  I do feel like I handle her better now than I did two years ago.  But the moral of the story is that she hasn't changed one bit.  If anything, she is adapting to my boundaries and medium chill and getting better at what she does.

I am going to have to try to live with less guilt, while understanding that I will never be as guilt-free as I'd like to be.  It's not how I'm wired.  But I can work on it.

Thank you all!

[Adrianna]

I'm never able to fully understand how they all go by the same playbook.

They're lonely (even when people visit because it's never enough)
No one does enough for them.
They're miserable.
They lie.
They guilt trip.
They make us want to pull our hair out from frustration.

I did it for years. Daily phone calls, listening to her whine, expecting me to fix her life, do more for her, and letting me know I was doing a lousy job at it.

It gets worse not better as they age.

Limit contact with her now. Don't be like me, having wasted over a decade of tolerating daily bitch sessions because I felt it was my duty and obligation. It was no such thing. It was voluntary servitude and I didn't have the strength to say no. That was on me. Not her. It took me a long time to see that. I blame myself for tolerating it. It was wasted effort, all those hours and all the weekends I spent trying to make her happy. In the end she basically told anyone who would listen that I was a lousy granddaughter. 

Now she's in a nursing home and the thought of speaking to her or seeing her turns my stomach.

[Psuedonym]

Good points Adrianna.

You know one of your old posts that stood out to me Sneezy was one when your mother was just gushing with the crying and the self pity and the misery and then your sibling called and told you she was just fine when they talked to her. I think one of the things we do as overly empathetic people is to use ourselves as a baseline; we think what sort of state we'd have to be in to behave anything like the disordered person, how much pain we'd have to be in to feel the need to dump on someone so badly, and we think they're coming from the same place.

I think a much more accurate comparison would be: how much misery does it take for  a small child to go off on a full blown 'YOU"RE SO MEAN!" "I NEVER GET TO DO ANYTHING! wailing tantrum? Pretty much anything involving saying no to anything they feel they need or want to do will do it. Because really, emotionally, that's how they old these disordered people are.They never got to the stage where they put on their big girl pants and took responsibility for themselves. (There's actually a website called Reasons My Son is Crying which is quite funny, btw). Also, like a small child, the misery only lasts for as long as the emotion does, which is usually quite fleeting. Then it's just....gone. Never happened. The only thing that is real is what they feel at that particular moment. And to continue the analogy, a small child is not going to sit there quietly with an unpleasant emotion. They're going to vent it all over you so you can make them feel better and FIX IT.

I can pretty much guarantee you that your mother has moments of happiness or contentment that you don't hear about, but you hear about each and every unhappy emotion she has because she wrongly believes its your job to fix it. They want you to believe that their misery and suffering is the worst that anybody has ever endured, ever, but then so does a 4 year old who doesn't get to wear her ballet slippers outside when its snowing (real example from my good friend! She had to pull the car over because of the wailing on the way to school!)  Maybe if you can see her more like that, a small child throwing a tantrum, you will be able to see the ridiculousness of her behavior more clearly and feel less guilty about saying no to it.

[Adrianna]

Pseudonym good information. I have heard that narcissists are stuck emotionally at a young age. They aren't able to regulate their emotions like adults should. They have low emotional intelligence. They really are like children.

I noticed this with the ones in my life with the exception of my father, who seems to have no emotions whatsoever, thus no problem controlling them. He's beyond narcissism in my opinion. 

[Sneezy]

It might also help you to cultivate a new creative interest-- cooking, sewing, art, music, nature walks, writing poetry, etc.-- that totally revolves around YOU and has nothing that involves your mother. 

I've been thinking about this, and am open to suggestions for new hobbies.  What are you all doing right now?  My area is still fairly shut down and in the middle of a heat wave.  But I'm thinking that as soon as it cools down, I need to strap on my fitbit and get walking again.  Other suggestions are welcome (not cooking or baking - been there, done that, at the beginning of shelter in place, hence the need to get walking again  ).

Psuedonym - You are right, of course Mom calls me and does her crying, because my siblings won't/don't deal with it.  One sib recently told me that when Mom starts crying she says something like "we're not gonna do this, Mom - I'll call you tomorrow and we can talk when you're feeling better."  Brilliant strategy and one I know people on this page have also recommended.

I think one thing that is bothering me lately (and I need to get over it) is the repetitive nature of mom's complaints.  A while back, we had a big fight because she said I never spent time with her or took her anywhere.  Being the listmaker that I am, I made a list of everything we had done in the past year and called her and read her the list.  That didn't really help, but it made me feel better, and it put a damper on her "you never spend time with me" crap.  But this week, she started up again.  Same refrain - you never take me anywhere, I haven't seen anything in this state, people say there's a lot to do here, but how would I know because I've never done anything, etc.  Obviously, me making another list is not going to help this situation.  It is going to be a regular complaint added to the repertoire.

Thanks again to all of you - I feel like we all have the same mom sometimes 

[Hepatica]

Hi Sneezy, I am reading this thread with interest bc I have two elderly parents in their 80's and I too struggle very much with how much contact is good for my mental health.
When my mother returned from hospital (six months from sepsis) I decided to try. I visited her and my father every Sunday for nearly a year. Sometime I felt like that scene from the old Airplane films, where the girl keeps telling everyone her problems and they lose it. My eyes would glaze over after hearing the same sad stories and I'd think: how nice would it be if even once they asked me how are you doing daughter? How's life? They never ever asked. I just sat there and listened to their million problems thinking that was my duty bc they are old.

Then I'd notice my father's face - of which I am really attuned to - from childhood abuse. I am so sensitive to his pouting and silences and I began to realize he was mad at me every time I went. He felt I was not doing enough, and had not done enough when my mother was in hospital and he could not get over it. He made the visits even more stressful.

One day I went over on a Friday to drop off flowers and a birthday card for my father. He wasn't there. He was galavanting around during COVID visiting people, dropping in on them when he shouldn't have been. Later he blamed me for never giving him a birthday card. Well, I had given him one. I had set the flowers too on his kitchen counter. How he missed this perhaps was due to his hoarding issue.

But no matter what I do or did, he was always mad at me. This seems a theme with these people - and I think for me, my unhealed trauma flares up whenever i engage and this thing about the flowers really made me angry. I haven't gone to see them since. I'm just done. I am done trying when I get nothing but criticism and heaps of vitriol about their lives that they never ever take responsibility for. They seem to believe it is up to everyone else to make them happy and have never learned that some of that must come from within.

I am not learning how to make myself happy.

Good luck on your walking. Today I am trying to figure out what courses I might take online. It's time I engaged in some passions too.

[illogical]

Hi Sneezy,

Think of it this way-- you are The Director of Your Life.

So YOU get to control where the spotlight falls.  Your mother will try with every ounce of her being to wrest that spotlight and put it on her.  But you have to say to yourself "I'm in control here.  I get to choose who is in the spotlight.  And I choose 'Sneezy'."  lol

I am into music and art.  Those are my hobbies.  They really have enabled me to focus on what is beautiful in life and get away from what is not.

There are many options for you, Sneezy.  Maybe think back to when you were a teenager and what engaged you.  For me, like I said, it was music and art.  But whatever makes you happy.  Is there something creative in your past you liked to do, but have not visited that in awhile?  Or would you rather venture into new territory and do something you have never done?  For some, that is intimidating.  For others, it's exhilarating.  It's totally up to you.  And really, it's exciting.  Because if you put your efforts into something creative and it doesn't work out, you can do something else.  There are hundreds of possibilities here!  The key is to get something that you really like to do that will take you miles away from your mom.  An escape.  But more than that, something that will tap into your creative spirit and allow you to grow!   

[Medowynd]

Your mother would be miserable no matter where she lived, because that is how people with a PD are.  As the others suggested, no need to take her incessant phone calls and complaints.  You can choose to speak with her one a week, twice a week or whatever is the best for you.  Your mother has had two years to get to know the residents of the community that she lives in.  That is her choice to remain miserable.  My mom was miserable and complaining on her deathbed.  She chose to live her life like that and died in misery.  Your mother is making these choices, time to step away from the fear, obligation and guilt.  Lots of great resources are available to help you determine what is best for your life going forward.

[Sneezy]

Your mother would be miserable no matter where she lived, because that is how people with a PD are. 

That is the truth!  Before moving near me, Mom was sad and lonely and miserable.  She would call me, crying that no one would go out or do anything with her.  Her favorite phrase was "the walls are closing in on me."  Of course, nowadays if I remind her of this, she claims she can't remember.  And then she will proceed to tell me how wonderful it was when she was back in her old home and how busy and happy she was.

I've probably been dwelling on Mom too much lately, but I have observed some interesting things.  First, I'm not the only one who struggles to find ways to deal with her.  I can see others setting boundaries, such as telling her not to call before or after certain hours and telling her that they need some quiet time on their own to read or relax in their own apartment.  Mom even confided that one of her new friends has told Mom that she is too needy.  The woman told Mom that they both need to have more than just each other as friends.  So, it's not just me, which makes me feel better.

Second observation - I got to see my DD for the first time in six months (thanks to coronavirus).  And it was heavenly, just to spend time together.  We drank coffee, chatted, took walks.  Nothing exciting.  We were just together.  And I think in my mind I assumed my mother would feel the same way about me as I feel about my daughter.  In other words, I expected that Mom would be content just to spend some time with me.  Coffee, TV, an occasional movie or shopping trip.  But she's not happy.  Instead, she complains endlessly that she's bored and we aren't doing anything.  That's where Mom and I are different, I guess.  For me, just sitting and having a cup of coffee with someone I love, especially DD, is all I need.  It's enough.  In fact it's more than enough, there just isn't anything better.  For Mom, all the activity and excitement and attention in the world is never enough.

[nanotech]

Your mother would be miserable no matter where she lived, because that is how people with a PD are. 

That is the truth!  Before moving near me, Mom was sad and lonely and miserable.  She would call me, crying that no one would go out or do anything with her......
I got to see my DD for the first time in six months (thanks to coronavirus).  And it was heavenly, just to spend time together.  We drank coffee, chatted, took walks.  Nothing exciting.  We were just together.  And I think in my mind I assumed my mother would feel the same way about me as I feel about my daughter.  In other words, I expected that Mom would be content just to spend some time with me.  Coffee, TV, an occasional movie or shopping trip.  But she's not happy.  Instead, she complains endlessly that she's bored and we aren't doing anything.  That's where Mom and I are different, I guess.  For me, just sitting and having a cup of coffee with someone I love, especially DD, is all I need.  It's enough.  In fact it's more than enough, there just isn't anything better.  For Mom, all the activity and excitement and attention in the world is never enough.

Absolutely. I'm just like you. I just want to see my kids and talk with them. I just enjoy drinking them in. Doesn't matter where we are. I could look and listen to their laughter all day. That's what it's all about.

My dad however, doesn't just want a visit from me, it has to include an outing to a restaurant or to some sort of event.
It's as if he's never heard of a cuppa tea and a catch up. I'm not enough. He has to have a day out. Even if he comes to our home he wants to go out when he gets there. I've been in this house for nearly six years. He's never sat in the garden with us and  just chilled.

[Boat Babe]

There's a folk song with the line about "the quiet joys of brotherhood" that I love, especially that line.

To spend time, ordinary, everyday time with our loved ones is a quiet joy. I remember cooking the family meal in the evening and my kid reading a book in the kitchen and that quiet joy was there.  PDs don't experience much or any of that. No wonder they're so fundamentally miserable.

[Pepin]

Sneezy - I can absolutely relate to this on behalf of my DH and his mother.  His mistake was moving closer to HER.  As we approach empty nester years and her eventual end (she's 80ish) we get to decide where we want to be. 

My husband has had an extremely difficult time setting boundaries with her as he is bound by cultural practices that she insists on enforcing.   He is literally the only sibling to reasonably comply, therefore is the favorite and loyal son. 

His anguish at being pulled in different directions, has been taken out on me and our children.  He has expectations for us that are both unreasonable and at times abusive because he thinks that we should comply with what his mother wants.

I've decided to stop being neutral when he complies and instead, implement boundaries.  And yes, he got very upset.  I have no idea what excuses he comes up with to tell his mother about why I don't visit nor do our kids - nor do we ever ask about her.

I think that the more I dig my heels in, the more he will feel the burn and will in turn also start setting boundaries with her.  It is amazing what even tiny boundaries can achieve. 

Before going NC with my own father when he was in his late 70s, I started setting boundaries.  It made him furious -- and he backed off and redirected his rage elsewhere.  Unfortunately it was toward my brother and then my brother, other sibling and I all went NC with our father.  It can be done.  We are no longer his emotional trash can.

I wish I had applied boundaries earlier to DH and PDmil's relationship- I just couldn't accept that  was going through PD abuse again.  No time like the present to keep at it. 

[SparkStillLit]

Uuugghhh my MIL does VERY similar stuff. That woman would be miserable were she Queen and lived in a palace. And her son (updh) is right behind her. "the walls are closing in" omg I cringed, except with him it's "I'm trapped, I'm trapped".
They read out of the same playbook.
You see her however often it's comfortable for YOU. SHE sure won't be happy about it.
For fun things to do, I like kayaking, hiking with or without dogs and friends, and knitting (hush). You can hike responsibly even in a pandemic. Or even just walk on local little trails. At least, they let us do it here. 'Course, everybody and their cat went outside, so you needed to be careful, but...

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Same boat here, Sneezy.  She asked me some years ago to promise that I'd always be there to help her if she sold her house.  And I did!  What was I thinking?      But since I made that promise, thoughts of even VLC do not sit right.  So .... boundaries!

Some days are really hard because of short-term health or mental health crises.  But I'm not going to make myself sick and my life miserable to meet her demands.  Nor will I make myself available enough for her to use me as her sole source of help anymore.   I use my gut as my guide.  Gut's unhappy?  Time to take it back a step.  No more daily phone calls or visiting 3 X a week.  No more returning SOS calls on the day I get them unless I feel like it. No more thinking I have to put my life on hold (until she dies) because she's unhappy and I have to fix it.  I forced her (kicking & screaming) to accept some paid help by simply making myself periodically unavailable.  It wasn't easy for a codependent like me to do, but it's all been much more manageable since then.

Make yourself a good life, Sneezy.  You deserve it!  We all do.