Hoarding

[Hepatica]

First off, I want to say that I know that I've been posting a lot here and hopefully I am not being annoying. I have a bit of time on my hands and haven't delved into the process of understanding my situation with my FOO in awhile. I seem to drop in and drop out when it gets too overwhelming or busyness happens. Lately there is a downtime and I have been giving the whole situation a closer look, as the toxicity in the family has now leaked into cousin's and the bigger family dynamic. I'm a bit overwhelmed.

I just want to ask anyone out there if they have a parent who has a personality disorder that includes hoarding, or even any other addiction? My father is a hoarder and my mother a gambler. Both have NPD characteristics.

I am wondering if anyone out there has had a 'hoarding' parent who has passed away and how the clean up was managed by the family? I have no idea what I will do with all of my father's stuff - that ranges from in his house, to a few paid garages and the family cottage, which is filled and nearly sinking into the ground now.

Will it be my responsibility to clean this up when he dies? I am really nervous about this bc it will mean having to work together with my sister who I am not on good terms with now. She is very enmeshed with my parents and I have gone nearly completely NC and she does not agree with my choices at all.

[Boat Babe]

Would it be your responsibility to clear your father's house?
If so can you arrange to do it at different times from your sister? Can you afford for professional waste disposal people to come in and do all the work.
It's good to have a plan then you can let go of that worry. One day at a time 😁❤️

[Hepatica]

Thanks Boat Babe,

I definitely need to begin making a plan. The amt. of stuff means it would cost thousands to dispose of. I have to look into how this is done.

In 2015 I had an exchange via email with my sister about it. My dad was about to turn 80, so it was on her mind, and she must have been putting a lot of thought into it. To be fair, this is really stressful and I understand her desire to fix the problem, but her email began with a sort of faux excitement that I didn't believe, after years of being told similar, that he was ready to off load much of it, and then she added how sick and in pain she was, so the gist of it, was she was offloading the process of having weekly garage sales and ebay auctions, to me. I had to laugh, bc after a car accident I had had terrible back and neck issues and couldn't lift anything. That was never considered by her. Her pain is always worse. When I sounded very uninterested she added the carrot and said: "he really believes he is going to die soon and he told me he wants to see 'you' and I receive some of his wealth bc he has hidden very valuable items for you and I"

That sentence may or may not have truth, but at this point, I very much doubt it and I don't care. The amt. of time and energy and who knows what kind of rat droppings I'd be breathing, it was not something I was going to agree to do, for her and him.

He's still alive and well. And his NPD characteristics worse than ever. Why she doesn't consider our parents abusers I can't for the life of me understand. But she did think i'd be the one to fix the problem and when I said no, her NPD characteristics began to really show.

As for law and protocol when cleaning out a parent's house/cottage/multiple garages, I don't know who is responsible. I am going to have to do some research.

[nanotech]

Would it be your responsibility to clear your father's house?
If so can you arrange to do it at different times from your sister? Can you afford for professional waste disposal people to come in and do all the work.
It's good to have a plan then you can let go of that worry. One day at a time 😁❤️

This is good advice. You don't wanna be a sitting duck for hours after all. Why is it our responsibility? 
In a functional family perhaps.
But when my UNPD dad passes,  I don't think I'm going to go and sift through stuff with two narcissists, an enabler and a flying monkey.
My dad isn't a hoarder. I kind of wish he was! I think the hoarding  gives you a real 'get out if jail free' card.
It's an unhealthy and potentially physically dangerous environment. And you've several of them! And you've health issues! No way do it!
Tell them they and you will need a professional service to remove all of that!
That's what I would tell anyone who thought it was my job to go sift  though what amounts to an indoor dump.
If your sister refuses and insists you come, you insist you don't come. Then she has to do it herself. She'll probably ring someone to clear it by day 2.

[qcdlvl]

Not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV, but I assume the executor of the will could hire a professional service at the estate's expense (again, not an expert, but I'm guessing it's possible the executor could pay upfront and get reimbursed when the house sells or whatever). If, when the time comes, you're the executor you could always consult a lawyer if necessary. If you're not the executor, then you can suggest a professional service. There might be charities willing to take the somewhat valuable bits at no cost to you as a donation to them, although I'm not sure how that works legally. So the only nightmare scenario might be multiple executors who can't agree and even then it's only really a problem for you if you're one of them. Even then, it's not like the Bad Heirs Police is going to drag you to jail - you could just hold firm that you're not going to personally participate in decluttering. But I wouldn't worry too much right now - a lot can happen before then. Bear in mind if you're nearly NC (or, with toxic people, for any reason really) it's possible you could be written off the will at any point, which would at least have the one advantage of making the hoard not your problem. If your F dies intestate, my understanding is that in the US the default scenario is an administrator sells everything and the proceeds, minus expenses, debts owed, taxes and a commission, are handed out to the heirs. So presumably a professional service would be hired at the estate's expense.

[Duck]

I am also not a lawyer, but my mom and I started talking about these things recently. She has asked me to be her personal representative, which is the same as executor. She sent me things to read. So far, I understand that the executor makes a new account in the name of the estate. Assets go in there. Expenses come out. I don't know what kind of assets your dad has, but it makes sense for the cost of clearing out the house to come out of the estate's expenses. I don't know how reimbursement works if the house must be sold first to get enough money to pay for the cleaning out of the house.

I just read this online, "The decedent's choice for an executor is typically included in the will. The court will appoint next of kin if they didn't leave a will—typically the surviving spouse or an adult child. This individual isn't obligated to serve. They can decline and the court will then appoint someone else."

I also read this in answer to someone who was named in a will as executor but didn't  want to serve. "If [your relative] has already passed away, you can inform the successor executor, if there is one, or the court that you do not want to serve in this capacity. If the will is already being probated, you will need to formally resign in writing in the probate court and provide a written accounting of what you have done. If the will does not name a successor executor, the probate court will choose an executor after you resign. State law dictates who has priority to serve. The surviving spouse usually has first priority, followed by children. If there is no spouse or children, then other family members may be chosen. If more than one person has priority and the heirs can't agree on who should serve, then the court will choose."

So, one option will be to bow out, let someone else be the executor and let them deal with it. You don't have to take care of your dad's affairs if you do not wish it.

I feel you. My parents house is filled to the brim and I often feel dread thinking about it. Some OCPD people have hoarding issues and I consider my dad one of them. I hope some people reply who went through this.

I am definitely interested in hiring a service even if it means not wringing every dollar out of each item. It's so much!!

[WomanInterrupted]

I'm also not a lawyer but have seen a couple on TV  - and DID hire an eldercare attorney after Ray fell, was declared incompetent and I needed POA to shelter assets AND get his care in the home paid for by the state - your obligation to the hoarder/hoard is absolutely ZERO - if you CHOOSE it to be.   

Even if you are POA and the hoarder dies -- you can rescind it and ask the town to appoint somebody.

If the hoarder is alive, you can still say, "NOT ME!" and ask a lawyer (or whomever drew up the papers) to count you out, you are DUNZO.   

And THAT is the end of your obligation, if you choose it to be.

If you don't want it and your sister is too ill, the lawyer will need to find somebody else to take care of all the stuff.  If they can't find a willing relative or even friend (I think), the town may appoint somebody and  again, your obligation is ZERO - and yes, that does include if one of your parents is alive and nobody wants to deal with him or her.  A stranger might wind up being POA, but that's what you get with a lifetime of  being...well...like our PD parents.   

Ah yes...all those lovely little trinkets your dad is going to leave for you and your sister to find, so you both get rich or at least live comfortably?   

That's a lie, so you don't drop him like a hot potato - which is my best advice. 

BTW - HE is responsible for your mom's care if they're married.  If not,  YOU don't have to do a thing.   

I just wanted to put that out there. 

I've dehoaded two hoards - one was unBPD Did's precious, valuable, one-of-a-kind, rare, unique museum quality doll, dollhouse shops, room boxes, dioramas, supplies to furnish and build at least 200 MORE (yes - MORE!) of the infernal things and I wound up donating it ALL to charity, because nobody wanted  any of it. 

Didi  was dead.  Ray wanted the stuff  gone - so he could could hoard the place with junk!

I did that one after he was in a nursing and the only reason  I dehoarded was:

1.  I don't like Ray, but he was  85, unsteady on his legs, refused to use a cane and it was only a matter of time before he accidentally killed himself, probably by falling down the stairs or starting a fire - which are the most common things to happen to elderly hoarders in this neck of the woods.

2.  After Ray was in a memory care unit, I knew the property had value and "Got Junk?" could rock and roll on the mess in a few days.  The assets had been sheltered by an eldercare attorney, so I was really helping myself. 

If they had no assets, I *might* have dehoarded the first time, but walked away the second and let the town handle it.

BTW - I only know ONE person who made out well when dehoarding.  My chiropractor, Dr. Snapnpop, is just about one of the luckiest people I've ever met - his "eccentric" aunt kept hiding money in books.  He has $32,000 that doesn't exist because cash doesn't count if you don't tell anybody!   

And that IS from an actual eldercare lawyer!  Once you say something to a person in a position of authority (like a lawyer) it has to be reported.   

Thankfully, I'm not a lawyer - I'm just a patient who has been seeing Dr. S for over 20 years, and this all happened a few months ago.   

In addition to the  money that doesn't exist, he's also had  a garage sale for kitchen wares, but wasn't so lucky with that - does anybody know anyone who needs 236 pair of scissors, 506 large serving spoons, or well over 1,000 of those grippy things for jars - among other stuff? 

Yeah - sometimes you just have to keep count. 

But most of us aren't going to find those things, the French Crown Jewels, Ark of the Covenant,  the Russian Amber Room , looted Nazi artwork or *anything* worth value -  including the "family jewels" which are worth their weight in recycled gold, and if a large diamond is involved, you might get a couple of hundred bucks from an online broker.

Stamp collection?

You might get $50 if you are lucky, because nobody collects stamps anymore and look VERY carefully at that "rare" coin collection - I found a current French franc, some Canadian pennies and a whole bunch of Chucky Cheese tokens!

Yup!  I is a Chucky Cheese heiress.   

Unfortunately, that's usually the extent of the "rare" and "valuable" things they leave us - they belong in a landfill or a recycling plant. 

Whatever you decide to  do, do NOT tell your sister - let a lawyer or whomever is preparing paperwork inform her. 

If she calls you to whine, tell her if she's THAT damned concerned about any of it (your mom's care, your dad and/or his care,  the house and hoard) she needs to get her butt to her doctor so she can be well enough to be  responsible for it all -- BYE!   

And  yes, BLOCK her.  You don't need to her hear banging on - just like you don't need ANY of this.   

NONE of this stuff are your problems - it's all shrouded in FOG - and we're trying to live in the sun.   

[nanotech]

qcdivi
     
   'Bad Heirs Police'! 

So funny! Exactly too! They can't very well frogmarch you into the house.
Fear,
Obligation
Guilt
They used to use FOG handcuffs to control you.
That doesn't happen any more. You're free!
I also chuckled at
             'Chucky Cheese Heiress!'
WI this will more than likely be me too!

[Hepatica]

 I have tears of laughter and quite a lot of relief reading these responses. Thank you Boat Babe, nanotech, qcdlvl, Duck and WomanInterrupted.

WI - Wow! Funny you mentioned the serving spoons and grippy things - bc I was actually thinking about those things the other day - as we've lost our serving spoon and I am considering jarring some things here and don't have a grippy thing.  Amazing story about the money in the books. That's a nice windfall. I did some reading yesterday about hoarders on reddit and someone was saying to check inside of books - as you can find uncashed cheques and money. I, alas, can not allow myself to even hope to find anything to cover the cost of my long-term therapy bills, because while my dad's a hoarder, my mom's a problem gambler and I'm sure she's found any monetary stash hidden around there. (Spose there's hope in the garages though...)

So i found out that in my area here there are two companies that do clean up services that include hoarding clean up and one of them said it's  1 to 2 $ per square foot. Someone on the thread wrote that they just wanted to bulldoze the (parent's) house down and throw it in the ground, but everyone advised not to as clean up services do great jobs and when the house is cleared and cleaned it can be worth something. I am grateful that my parents don't have any animals - as that is one of the biggest problems with smell - the feces, food, sometimes carcasses of long neglected pets. Yeck.

Someone said to me the other day that she thinks that when my parents pass on, I might be able to make up with my sister. Has anyone had an experience like this? Meaning when the divide and conquer parents depart, the siblings find a way to work things out? Or is this a pipe dream?

[Sneezy]

My stepmother was a wonderful person, not PD and not a hoarder, but after she passed it became my responsibility as executor to get her house cleaned out and on the market.  I hired a realtor, who gave me the number of "a guy."  The way it works is that the guy comes to the house in question and looks through it and then gives a price.  Depending on what is in the house the price can either be 1. the price you pay him to haul everything away or 2. the price he gives you for the privilege of taking the stuff.  I lucked out, as the guy decided to give me $300 and he hauled away every last piece of furniture, clothing, paperwork, etc. that there was (note - I did give several relatives first dibs on any furniture that they wanted).  I never saw the guy, he left the $300 in the freezer.  Strange, but effective.  If you have a realtor friend, chances are they know a guy who can perform this service when the time comes.  Good luck!

[jenlem]

Oh I am so worried about this too. Really helpful being able to read these replies!
uNPD hoarder Dad, over 75, enabler Mum not helping the situation.
House is huge and crumbling. No work done on it since my childhood. Not *too* bad in terms of hygiene or infestation, but certainly rooms piled high. They moved into my old bedroom when they hoarded out their own bedroom and ensuite.
Brother is useless, don't know what the correct term would be, but surely shows signs of NPD himself. He'll want to benefit from the house but won't want to actually put in any effort and help.

Yes, I guess as other commenters have said, my plan is to get a man in and get it done asap, out of the proceeds of the estate. As long as brother agrees. Big caveat!!! No way am I wasting my own time. Due to growing up in a hoarded house, I gave enough trouble keeping on top of my own belongings and paperwork!

Good luck to you 🤞

[doglady]

My elderly, infirm PD parents are hoarders and refuse all help. I accept that, in the eyes of the law at least, they are regarded as competent adults and, as such, entitled to their choices. But I’ve only come to realise this after a long, hard road and a very difficult childhood growing up as the family scapegoat in a squalid hoarder house. 

These days I’m VVVVVVVVVVVLC with my parents. It was the last straw for me when I spoke to them about their health and safety being compromised by their ‘collection’ and they then accused me of being the cause of all their problems. 

So I’ve decided that my NC enmeshed siblings can therefore have a field day picking all through the mouldy newspapers, Xmas wrapping paper, undeveloped film, decades-old school books, long-dead grandmother’s clothes, broken furniture, rat droppings, cat skeletons, retro porn mags and bags of used sanitary pads and other rubbish,  (And that’s just one bedroom!)

Although it might be a while until the cleanup occurs, as my uPDM repeatedly informs all and sundry that’s she’s planning to live until she’s 200. Yep. 100’s not good enough for her. (They are nothing if persistent, I suppose, and vampire-like, she has managed to drain everyone in the vicinity of their life force.)

I also have a strong feeling that my sibs will suddenly try and reach out for my help once the unholy cleanup is necessary. But I’m planning on keeping keeping far, far away, with a nice glass of Chardonnay   

Edited to add (after my highjack/rant):
What Nano said about it being unsafe is so important to remember. People have been badly affected by insects, mold spores and bacteria in droppings when dealing with hoarded houses. That’s why those dudes come in wearing hazmat suits. So leave it to the experts and pay for it out of the estate.

And another thing: you are definitely not being annoying at all when you post here, Hepatica. I also often worry about being annoying (and fear that it is probably the case, as I seem to have a knack for unintentionally getting under some people’s skins; for example, I feel like some may be rolling their eyes about what I’ve written above and may think it’s beyond the pale).
But I think a lot of this may be a hangover from our childhoods, when we were often just expected to put up and shut up and not say anything against family policy because if we did, there was invariably hell to pay.
So now when you then do speak up and say *something* (anything, really) even as an adult the inner critic can kick in and tell us we’re being annoying.
Say it anyway, Hepatica. You are not annoying at all. And we are listening.

[Hepatica]

Doglady, thank you. Thank you for sharing as well bc I feel inspired by your example, esp, those plans with the chardonnay.  What do we have left but a sense of humour and a map to our own happiness?

I'm sorry you have gone through this too though, and personally felt your sharing comforting and not at all a high jack or rant, just a sensible example of a come to acceptance of a situation that takes a hell of lot of strength to come to accept. Seems good and wise to me.

I also like how you frame these kinds of parents as competent adults. Someone else used that term (new to me) and yes, that reframes the perhaps co-dependent view I've been allowing in head and heart for too many years, thinking things like: someone must rescue them from themselves...    Much of the learning and process I feel like I'm in the middle of lately is letting the co-dependence and guilt (and shame) go. Their choices. Not mine.

I hate when those last straws hit us. They hurt. I've had a few in the past few years, one most recently and it was like ripping off a bandage. It was painful but now I'm like, just leave me alone and I have very little confusion about it. My parents are not safe people, end of story. I feel like I can be free and heal now.

Thank you so much for sharing and your kind words about my sharing. I am just going with it. I somehow trust this is what I need to do now. I've been trying way too hard to do this on my own.

[Fiasco]

My non-PD dad passed two years ago and thanks to what I think was undiagnosed early Alzheimer's his house was both fully hoarded and fully infested with rats. After I advised my sibling to pay to have everything hauled away my sibling decided to hire an estate liquidation company who went through the house, sold everything salable and paid to have the rest hauled to the dump. After all was said an done we actually made over ten thousand, instead of paying out of pocket. I still can't imagine what was worth anything in that sadly abused home, but we made money and got an empty house out of the deal.

[Hepatica]

Fiasco, thank you for that example. I am so glad that I shared this issue here bc I didn't realize how much the problem of how to solve the hoarding problem took up in my head. I was not aware there were services that did clean ups. Now I know that there are two of them in my hometown and that is a huge relief. My uNPDcovertsister will probably fight me on wanting to do a clean up. She believes there are very expensive treasures hidden in the mess. She may be right. But I have no desire to go back in that house, dig through things that will only remind me of my dysfunctional parents and how the last years of their lives were full of anger, betrayal and pain. I can't do it. She will push me though and i guess I will have to be very strong to draw the boundary lines.

[Fiasco]

Hepatica what it will probably come down to is someone will be in charge of the clean out of the house, probably the designated or appointed executor of the estate. If that is you, do what's best for you which sounds like that would be to hire someone. If that turns out to be your sister and she decides the house needs to be cleaned out by hand then she can go for it but you stay out of it. We ended up going with an estate liquidation company because I made it clear to my sibling that I was not helping actually clean it up. I love my dad an my sibling (usually lol) and had pretty good memories of his house but it was beyond my emotional and physical capacity. Luckily for me my sibling agreed, but my help in that way was not negotiable.

[Hepatica]

Fiasco,
My sister is the eldest and the GC, so I am fairly certain that she will be the executor. At this point, I am probably written out of the will, bc I have gone NC with all of them. That said, if I am not written out of the will, it will be an exercise in boundaries for me. I realized yesterday why I have always had anxiety around saying no. It's bc NPD folks hate being told no, even if I have said it in the most round about way, not using the world no, saying yes, yes, yes but this is how it will look for me, purposely removing the word no bc they can't stand it and trying to be clever. Oh god. I've tried to say no to my sister. She gets more and more and more manipulative. She is a control freak. It was full blown when my mother was quite ill in hospital. I couldn't believe how I had to reduce my boundary to one short sentence and say it over and over and over again. She was relentless. It's why I've gone NC with her. She has the whole family on her side now. I am the mean sister who says no.

I will say no if she asks me to assist with the clean up, but the rumour mill will grind and I will again be the mean sister.

I am so so tired of being the mean sister.

All of this has me wound up again and feeling so confused and sad and broken. I am in tears this AM and it's not even about the hoarding. It's just about everything that's happened. I am so downhearted.

I have to get it together and count my blessings.

[nanotech]

Fiasco,
My sister is the eldest and the GC, so I am fairly certain that she will be the executor. At this point, I am probably written out of the will, bc I have gone NC with all of them. That said, if I am not written out of the will, it will be an exercise in boundaries for me. I realized yesterday why I have always had anxiety around saying no. It's bc NPD folks hate being told no, even if I have said it in the most round about way, not using the world no, saying yes, yes, yes but this is how it will look for me, purposely removing the word no bc they can't stand it and trying to be clever. Oh god. I've tried to say no to my sister. She gets more and more and more manipulative. She is a control freak. It was full blown when my mother was quite ill in hospital. I couldn't believe how I had to reduce my boundary to one short sentence and say it over and over and over again. She was relentless. It's why I've gone NC with her. She has the whole family on her side now. I am the mean sister who says no.

I will say no if she asks me to assist with the clean up, but the rumour mill will grind and I will again be the mean sister.

I am so so tired of being the mean sister.

All of this has me wound up again and feeling so confused and sad and broken. I am in tears this AM and it's not even about the hoarding. It's just about everything that's happened. I am so downhearted.

I have to get it together and count my blessings.

You're not the mean sister though!  That's just a role THEY very spitefully made up and tried to give to you, so they don't have to examine their own behaviour.
Remember that.
Who cares what they say or think? They are all disordered. These are not healthy relationships. Not one bit.  Don't take on their skewed perceptions.
I'm sorry you are feeling sad. It's a kind of grief- I've had it too. But it passes.

[Hepatica]

Thank you Nanotech,
Means so much. This has been a really emotional day for me, morning to night, lots and lots of crying. I don't think I'm depressed. It feels like authentic grief. I suppose it's part of the process.
I am watching the Danish show Borgen on Netflix and the episode I watched earlier made me cry my eyes out. It's a great show. Very sympathetically written with all different storylines. Loving it. Loving the strong women.
Hopefully I've cried it all out today. We'll see how tomorrow goes.

[nanotech]

I too have been bullied by my whole family. It's horrendous! I was in denial about the true extent of it, until my daughter pointed out that the whole lot of them were either bullying, or enabling the bullying, or in one case, using the bullying of me to seemingly side with me, just so she could attack our brother.

It can get complex.

I agree . I think the crying is grief. I went through it too. Keep an eye on yourself though. You may need to talk to someone, like I did. People are sympathetic.
I spoke with doctors,  and found a really great therapist.
I've cried in front of a lot of people! But I was finally validated. I had my grown up kids to remind me I wasn't going crazy, and no, I WASN'T a bad person!

They still try to gaslight me. I'm mean and crazy, apparently! Ok!
Bring on the cruel and nasty adjectives!! I can handle them!
One of them even contacted my adult daughter, saying that he was 'concerned'  for my sanity!  That was because I put a polite stop to his passive aggressive and bullying messages.
If you don't tow their line, they label you in these ways. It's to try and get you back under their control. But it's their last resort ,and it's a weak one.

I got into yoga/ meditation. I was mocked for that. As with the therapy, it threatened them.  Sister mocked it relentlessly. My UNPDdad would (subtly) make fun of it.
I didn't notice at first, but then I saw it.  I called him out on it ✋ and he denied it. But then he stopped mocking me. 
I'm totally zero tolerance on any sign of derision or belittling from them. I make it clear that my dad can't do that, however small the offence.

If you do look at anything like yoga, be careful. The first teacher I had turned out to be narcissistic too. It was a small yoga school and I think I was intent on trying to replace my lost family with them.
I saw though the set up there, because of my own family experience. But I must admit that I didn't want to believe it at first.
That didn't work, and I had to leave. Found a lovely teacher now! Look for someone who doesn't want her clients to be her best friends/ family.
Professional relationships work best,  until we know where our heads are. I have made friends within my new group too, and these have been healthy friendships.
Have hugs! It's all good! Well it WILL be! 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗