DPD, pure meanness or what on earth is it?

[foggyme]

It's about M. It started when I was about 18-19. She started imagining F was siphoning money to a very very small business. She knew (don't know how) what business it was, where it was (a small shop at farmers market) though she had no proof. But she was certain. She was also sure he was cheating on her with a neighbour. The setup changed, we moved to a different city, but the accusations continued. The woman who he cheated with constantly changed - but M never came back on her previous charges to say if the affair with the previous mistresses didn't actually happen and she was wrong, or if F had F a long string of women he was cheating with. Sometimes the woman was unnamed, unknown, but she had also children with F .. so F had another family. F led a double life.
The small business turned into a larger and different business - every few months. He had a 'mansion' M was not allowed access at, but she 'knew' all about it. He had an apartment she had no access to in the town we lived before we moved here. I don't know it she thinks he had (has?) them both at the same time or she just changed her mind about what his 'side' home was, but for sure, he bought those with her money that he stole and money he siphoned out of the family.
The divorce finally happened ~11 years ago and eventually F met and married another woman, also divorced with grown up children, which M met two years ago at a large family event.
Suddenly, M knew who the woman who ruined her marriage was and what his 'side' family was and who F's children with the other woman were.
What is this? It sure looks like madness to me. Could it be mental health? Is it just a personality disorder? Is it just her wondering imagination? She always seems to be looking for possible scenarios about everybody. One time she was certain that one of her neighbours who had a physical medical issue was actually ill for being beaten by someone she tried to double cross. So it's not only family she limits to the endless scenarios.

[notrightinthehead]

No wonder you are worried. Seems like she has an active imagination and cannot see the difference between her and others' reality. Having delusions and not being able to recognize what others agree on is reality, is called psychosis. Has your mother ever been assessed? Does she sometimes seem lucid and admit that she might have been mistaken with her assumptions? How does she respond when you challenge her opinions? Does she function alright at work and in day to day activities?

[Inurdreams]

I noticed this with my NGM.  She would come up with some scenario about something and suddenly it was true in her mind.

I actually saw this in action once.  There was an elderly woman who lived across the street from NGM. I was visiting NGM one day and she noticed some man over at that house, sweeping the driveway.  She kept pondering why this man was sweeping.  Like it was the most unusual thing in the world.  Suddenly she decided that the elderly woman who lived there had died and the man must be her son, out there sweeping.  What one had to do with the other is beyond me.

Anyway, over the course of the day, whoever she spoke to, she told them that this woman had died.  She had not, BTW.

She was always coming up with stories like this, based solely on what she imagined.  I don't think she was mentally ill.  And I don't think she was being mean.  I do think, having N tendencies, that she assumed that she was the know-all, be-all and anything she thought must certainly be true.

Ex:  If someone was late showing up on her demand, they must certainly be taking drugs.  If my DH did not want to join me at her house, he must certainly be having an affair.  When my DS got sick with a cold, I must have sent him to school without a coat and with his head soaking wet.  The list goes on and on, from somewhat reasonable assumptions to the outrageous.

She did seem to spend a great deal of time telling anyone who would listen that people were always trying to "fool" her.  Almost anything she said was ended with, "They can't fool me," or "They think they can fool me but I know the truth."  I often wonder if this is why she was always coming up with these imagined ideas.  Like she was so afraid that someone was going to pull something over on her so she had to counter that paranoia with some story where she had figured out whatever secret she thought they were hiding from her.   IDK, it must have been exhausting to spend her life that way.

[foggyme]

@notrightinthehead, She was never assessed, and I never asked her because she was convinced that F and I want to make her look crazy by taking her to a corrupt dr and give her a made up diagnostic of mental illness. She said she went to a dr by herself and got a paper stating she was sane. She can appear normal, she doesn't just show her delusions to everybody, though her mask started to crack with my H.
I have no idea how she functions at work - she held the same job for decades, and even though it was not high paying, it was rather secure so even if she did not function well it would probably not have reflected in her losing her job. At home, she is messy and her house is mildly in dissarray. She doesn't have the discipline to throw food paper wrappers and used tissues the moment they've run their life cycle, so her table is always cluttered with all sorts of garbage that belongs in the bin. Maybe once every few days she throws them away, since her house isn't really in a squalid state, but, the entire kitchen for instance is full of meds that don't have a designated place and sit on top of each other, shopping bags (a lot of them, unfolded and taking up a lot of volume), lots of boxes of matches, some empty because she doesn't throw them when they're empty, she just dumps them back inside the cupboard. And so on.
She never admitted she was wrong about her suppositions, she just moves right to the next one. If I challenge her delusions (I don't, not anymore) she tells me I don't know, she knows better, and if I tell her she can't be that certain  because she doesn't know at all the situationof rhe family she is bashing, for instance, she says "well that's just my opinion." But she never frames it like an opinion, she frames it like she was there and saw what happened.

[Jade63]

She did seem to spend a great deal of time telling anyone who would listen that people were always trying to "fool" her. 

Yeah, same here. NM always thought people were trying to fool her.
Especially ME! And I've NEVER tried to fool her. Not even to be funny.
Towards the end tho, before NC, I just didn't bother to challenge her ideas anymore. I just let her believe her nonsense. So I guess I did fool her...or just let her make a fool of herself.

~J

[foggyme]

Ex:  If someone was late showing up on her demand, they must certainly be taking drugs.  If my DH did not want to join me at her house, he must certainly be having an affair.  When my DS got sick with a cold, I must have sent him to school without a coat and with his head soaking wet.  The list goes on and on, from somewhat reasonable assumptions to the outrageous.

Yes!! Absolutely, this resembles so much M's behavior! If I wasn't hungry right after coming home, it was because I had lunch with F. Sometimes her delusions are not statements, they're questions or assumptions but they are just as bothering because they seem to come out of nowhere. For instance: "So you aren't buying and decorating a Christmas tree, it's probably because you'll be visiting your father's family and since he has kids (I am an only child, no sibling nor half siblings) there's probably a Christmas tree as well." This is crazy town ..

She did seem to spend a great deal of time telling anyone who would listen that people were always trying to "fool" her.  Almost anything she said was ended with, "They can't fool me," or "They think they can fool me but I know the truth."  I often wonder if this is why she was always coming up with these imagined ideas.  Like she was so afraid that someone was going to pull something over on her so she had to counter that paranoia with some story where she had figured out whatever secret she thought they were hiding from her.   IDK, it must have been exhausting to spend her life that way.

Yesssss!! This too! M doesn't say things like 'They can't fool me' but she sure acts like she thinks it. I was also thinking of this. Like she's always guarded someone will f... her over, but not just just that, it's not always in situations when she might have something to lose, I think she feels cheated if she feels information -that would not benefit her in any way- is withheld from her, so she thinks of all possibilities, like she doesn't want to be taken by surprise by an information that might come up - an information which doesn't have anything to do with her. For instance, years ago - when I was neither married nor in a relationship - she asked me: "So, where are you and your husband going this summer?"
Insane, right? I think you are right, it has to be exhausting living like this.

The resemblance with your GM is indeed striking. Did you have to provide end of life care for her? I am terrified of the possibility of having to see her daily later on when her health declines. I do not like her company even if she toned down her 'imagination' and guilt tripping ever since I have H by my side whenever I meet her.

[foggyme]

Towards the end tho, before NC, I just didn't bother to challenge her ideas anymore. I just let her believe her nonsense. So I guess I did fool her...or just let her make a fool of herself.

Absolutely, Jade. I don't argue anymore either. There's no point, it doesn't work, it doesn't convince them. I was to show her tomorrow a DNA test confirming F is not his wife's son father - she would say the test is fake. If I would ask her 'well then, are you calling me a liar?' she would probably answer 'maybe you don't know the truth either and F has you fooled too' .

[tommom]

foggyme, I have also seen this behavior in my own PDm, as well as other PDs in my life. Whether it is an offshoot of their fear of change and subsequent anxiety, their refusal to accept responsibilty or what, it seems to be a common behavior.

As for how she can function at work, my M was very successful at her job despite being an abusive  PD at home. I think they can simply compartmentalize like that. Maybe part of their black and white thinking. My opinion has always been that, unable to assign herself responsibility in anything, she was, using splitting, able to assign imaginary "bad" behaviors to people she didn't really know. They were "Bad" and she could take out her venom-stress-hatred-whatever on them because "they deserved it", after all...they are "bad". It needn't relate to actual reality for them. As a child I dealt with being accused of things I simply didn't do. I don't remember how old I was when I realized -it didn't matter if I was in school or on the other side of town. I did it, whatever 'it' was. Just her PD (I guess). That, sadly, as scary as it sounds, is, I believe actually how they self-soothe. Maybe the maelstom of anxiety, despair, hatred, whatever that is inside them has to be expunged and, being on the same cluster as ASPD, they can reconcile using another person as their emotional whipping boy.

I will say that one of my therapists suggested she was more than a PD. After her death, we found much she had written. She was extremely depressed for most of her life and someone has suggested the form of bipolar disorder called hypothymia because of what she expressed in her writings as well as other behaviors. We'll never know, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that we can recover and find closure with what we learn. I wish you both.

[Inurdreams]

\

The resemblance with your GM is indeed striking. Did you have to provide end of life care for her? I am terrified of the possibility of having to see her daily later on when her health declines. I do not like her company even if she toned down her 'imagination' and guilt tripping ever since I have H by my side whenever I meet her.

Thank goodness, no.  And this ties into to this that tommom wrote:

foggyme, I have also seen this behavior in my own PDm, as well as other PDs in my life. Whether it is an offshoot of their fear of change and subsequent anxiety, their refusal to accept responsibilty or what, it seems to be a common behavior.

As for how she can function at work, my M was very successful at her job despite being an abusive  PD at home. I think they can simply compartmentalize like that. Maybe part of their black and white thinking. My opinion has always been that, unable to assign herself responsibility in anything, she was, using splitting, able to assign imaginary "bad" behaviors to people she didn't really know. They were "Bad" and she could take out her venom-stress-hatred-whatever on them because "they deserved it", after all...they are "bad". It needn't relate to actual reality for them. As a child I dealt with being accused of things I simply didn't do. I don't remember how old I was when I realized -it didn't matter if I was in school or on the other side of town. I did it, whatever 'it' was. Just her PD (I guess). That, sadly, as scary as it sounds, is, I believe actually how they self-soothe. Maybe the maelstom of anxiety, despair, hatred, whatever that is inside them has to be expunged and, being on the same cluster as ASPD, they can reconcile using another person as their emotional whipping boy.

I will say that one of my therapists suggested she was more than a PD. After her death, we found much she had written. She was extremely depressed for most of her life and someone has suggested the form of bipolar disorder called hypothymia because of what she expressed in her writings as well as other behaviors. We'll never know, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that we can recover and find closure with what we learn. I wish you both.

My NGM got it into her head that I had done something to hurt my DB.  I had not.  On the contrary, I had actually talked him out of a suicide threat one night, on the phone, 5 hours away.  When I tried to explain the situation to her, she countered with, "Well, all I know is what (my aunt) told me."

My aunt was nowhere near me or my DB at the time.  Anyway, I was so angry with my NGM and my aunt that  decided that they could just have each other and I would step away, for good.  Which I did.  So it was my aunt that cared for NGM, in the end.

It is interesting to know that my NGM is not alone in this kind of thinking.  Sad, very sad.  Maybe it is some sort of self-soothing.

It is strange to me how they spend so much energy on this.  However, my NGM would deny it or twist it into just being "concerned" but it seems to go much deeper than that.  It's almost like they want these things to be true.

On the other hand if NGM was telling me something that was true, she would always preface it with, "You may not believe this, but..." and then when she would repeat this conversation she had with me to someone else, she would start it with, "Inurdreams didn't believe me when I told her about xyz."  I never told her I didn't believe her, it was just something she assumed, I guess.

Everyday with her was a constant exercise in defending myself to her.  She was either falsely accusing me of something or someone else.  It was like a sport with her.  She was a miserable person, but she would deny it to the death.  She thought she was Little Miss Sunshine, for some reason and no one was allowed to complain about their lives. They had to be happy, happy, happy around her.  Only she was allowed to complain, accuse and be miserable.

[Frozen34]

The responses here are really insightful. My dad is schizoaffective and has anxiety as well. I think his delusions - of my mom cheating (while she was still alive) were perhaps due to his paranoia. After her death he threw her under the bus and spread terrible lies about her.  He's clearly delusional and psychotic. Plus I also suspect he is uDPD. So not sure what the case if with your mom but I wish you the best in learning more. <3