How do I give up?

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you Leonor for the kind words and the encouragement. There is so much in your post!
I am absolutely blown away by the thoughtfulness, introspection, and empathy of the members of this forum.
Is this what is produced by living with PD individuals? All things really do work together for our good and His glory! You all are amazing people! I really am blown away. People with your level of insight and empathy are so hard for me to find in my physical community. I am so thankful to have found you all.
I have so much to say. I am realizing I have sooooo much in my head and in my heart that I just don't share.  It has been unsafe for me to be vulnerable so I have really subconsciously learned to keep it all hidden in my heart. It feels so good to be able to share with you all. You listen and share your experiences and point out the truth to me.  This is what I want so badly in my marriage!!!  No one is using my words against me. You point out the truth to me. If it hurts then praise God I am now aware of the truth and can deal with it. I have been so confused for so long and I am relieved to have your well meaning guidance and to learn of your similar experiences. I would say you have no idea how much it all means to me but you do!!
You have all been here and survived it. Thank you all for all your comments!
Escaping man, I don't feel sorry for you, I am sorry you went through hell but I am so happy for you to finally be free. Thank you for sharing and encouraging me on my journey as well

[square]

All kinds of people live with PD people, including other PDs.

We are a self selected bunch of introspective, analytical folks working on improving ourselves. Not everybody researches or tries to improve things or solve problems. So that is what we have in common. High fives and fist bumps all around.

[Truthseeker1]

Book worm,
Now that I am more aware of what's going on, I am learning to live in this world under a whole new set of rules. The new rules do indeed, overall diminish the intensity and frequency of the conflicts. I am thankful to have learned new ways to manage some of the dysfunction in my life. This however has created a whole new dilemma. I have touched on it in my communications with square. The techniques have helped solve one problem but have created another.  Indifference does seem to be the destination I am headed toward. I hate it though. I just absolutely hate the idea of living the rest of my life like that. That is not the way it's supposed to be. That is not at all the way God wants it to be between himself and us. I am sure he did not want it to be that way in our marriages either. I can be indifferent to save the pain of arguments and I have done it and seen it work. That, however, feels a little like dying every time I do it. I may not be eliciting fear in her or provoking her to anger, but I feel like I am putting another nail in the coffin of our relationship. So, either way, I don't really experience peace.

[Cat of the Canals]

Did you all struggle to believe it when you first learned about the diagnosis?   

Hugely. It was maybe ten years ago, and I had a weird interaction at a family function. I was speaking to a family friend, and they completely out of the blue said something along the lines of, "Your mother loves you so much. It means so much to her when you call and visit. I know it would mean so much to her if she could see you and talk to you more often."

Being the people-pleasing doormat my mother raised to her exacting specifications, I didn't question this at all. I had my mission. I was not fulfilling mother's needs! Someone book me a one-way ticket on the guilt trip train!

So I started calling her more often. It was once a week-ish before, and now I made it a ritual to call every Sunday, just like she'd always done with her mother, and then extra calls here and there. I made a huge effort to visit more often despite the fact that I lived two hours away, and she never came to visit me.

Next family function, a DIFFERENT family member comes up and says almost exactly the same thing to me.    OK, now I'm confused. She asked, I gave. I gave her exactly what she asked for! How had my effort gone so completely unnoticed?

So I googled something -- I don't know what -- that summed up the situation. Probably something about jumping through every hoop someone's set up for you only to be told it's still not enough. I found a site about daughters of narcissists.

I thought, "This sounds so much like her, but it can't be! She's not that bad."

I set it aside for a while until the next manufactured drama. And then I stumbled on Understanding the Borderline Mother by Christine Lawson. Turns out, my mother is a textbook BPD Queen (AKA some combination of BPD/NPD). If I was reticent to believe she was a narcissist, BPD was even harder to swallow, because I wrote a 25 page study of BPD in college. I had a roommate I was fairly certain had BPD. My professor's comment on my paper was, "You're really fascinated by this subject, aren't you?" So how could this have been right under my nose the whole time?

I'd say it took me 5 years to get to the point where I was really certain something was wrong with her (and not me, as I'd always assumed). And the only "something" that fit was a personality disorder. And another 1-2 years before I was able to fully accept it. I'm another 4+ years down the road from that, and I still have moments where I question. "What if I'm wrong?" I do have a sort of shorthand list of "undeniable evidence" from the past that I use to remind myself that it's real. There's very little FOG or doubt these days.

It is a grieving process. The same as when someone dies. Because the someone you thought she was might as well have died. You will likely experience the entire gamut of the stages of grieving -- denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. The stages come all jumbled up and out of order, and it's really more of a cycle than a straight line. You will move a step toward acceptance, and then two steps back into bargaining. "Maybe I just haven't come up with the right way to talk to her." "Maybe she just needs therapy." (If your wife is like my mother, the very suggestion of therapy would be the pinnacle of insults.)

The acceptance will come eventually. Probably not as fast as you'd like. Be patient with yourself. Take it one day at a time.

[square]

Personally for me, I believed it pretty quickly once the shoe dropped. My issue is that I thought I could fix it. Because solving problems is my job.

[Poison Ivy]

Same for me, Square. Unfortunately, I think my ex thought my role was to fix the problems, too.

[bloomie]

Truthseeker1 - you have had a range of insights and powerful responses to your complex questions. I want to say something very simple to you. When I first washed up on the shores of Out of the FOG I came for the difficulties in my marriage. My covenant, multi decade marriage. My vows before God and my family mean everything to me. So, we are samsies that way.

What was the beginning for me, the only thing that brought change in my life, was after learning and acknowledging what certain traits may indicate in my H, I had to take my eyes off of my H and off of his behaviors and issues and redirect my energy and efforts toward growing in wisdom and truth. I had to learn to not let my emotions drive the chariot. I could and did feel my feelings and move through them, but they could not determine the course of my life or the life of my family.

I had to learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable as I began to calmly and consistently set limits and boundaries. And I have had to build a support system around myself to recover and find solid ground for my feet. I had to mature and grow or be miserable. I had to. I needed to. 

I say this as gently as possible, but you may have been looking to your wife, and your marriage to define you, shape you, give you the feedback and life experience that you always dreamed of. That is a lot of pressure to put on a relationship and is unrealistic, ime. Add to that, I have found that the church often places an emphasis on the survival of a marriage over the health and well being of those in the marriage. Even when abuse is present, often people are sent back into the marriage to 'work on it' or 'honor their vows'.

Note I said the church does. But, God does not.

From what you share you are in the midst of an emotional, relational, spiritual tsunami. You are realizing that maybe, just maybe, you have built your house on the sand and when the waves have come in and washed away parts of your house you have attempted to maintained or fix it by running around rebuilding, repairing, placating, trying to please, trying harder, praying, plagued with self doubts, isolated, disillusioned, and exhausted.

How do I know? Because I have been right where you are. As I have said, the only thing that ever changed anything for me in my marriage was to turn from dysfunctional, unhealthy, broken ways of engaging and thinking and to turn and head for higher ground. I made the decision that I would do that. I would seek tools, insights, truth and I would grow in resilience and strength and wisdom and build on The Rock even if I ended up doing it alone. I invited those I love to traverse to stability with me, but I knew they may choose not to come along. Because, my dear truthseeker, it is a steep climb that some we love with our whole hearts will not take with us. Make no mistake about it.

Until you are okay, no matter the outcome of your marriage, until you are able to stand strong and resolved in what does and does not work for you in relationship with your wife and every other human you know, until you are sure of who you are and stable in having done a sober self assessment of your side of the street in all of this, I respectfully believe you are not ready to make any kind of final decision about your marriage. Mind you, that doesn't mean you aren't ready to no longer allow yourself to be abused.

Keep moving forward. Keep growing in strength. Develop boundaries and continue to equip yourself. Begin to build trust in yourself and trust in The One who made you and who never leaves you or forsakes you.

And keep coming back! You are not alone!

[Truthseeker1]

Wow, thank you all for sharing your story with me. Thank you for such amazing insights. There is so much truth in all of those thoughtful responses for me to ponder.
The idea of a pdw is still so new to me. Coming to terms with its significance has not been easy. I am still in denial plenty of the time. Angry and then heart broken as well. I am moving toward but still far from acceptance. I believe I do need to tend to my side of the street. I realize my motives are often to try to change her or "save" the marriage.  I am catching myself in that mindset daily. I am glad that I can now see it for what it is. I see the power in letting go of expectations. I just have not been able to consistently do it yet. I feel like I am watching the woman I thought I married die and her spirit be replaced by an evil spirit. She looks the same on the outside but she is now different on the inside.   That is a very difficult process to observe. I am still in the anger denial grief stages. Not sure how to bargain with God for what I want but I do know how to plead for it. Seems I am everywhere except in acceptance.

[square]

It takes time.

[Truthseeker1]

I left her. Well, I was actually belittled badgered and then thrown out of my own house. I am attempting to rally support from my community of friends. I am trying to not go back. Part of me is excited about a positive future. Part of me is scared of what she will do next. I dont even have a plan yet but I am committed to staying away a week and will try to make it longer if possible.

[Poison Ivy]

Good for you, Truthseeker1! This community is here for you, too.

[square]

We are here for you.

You'll be very tempted to go back when she beckons. Just keep in mind how you've already crossed the hardest hurdle when you make your decision. As you are clearly already aware.

[bloomie]

Truthseeker1 - take good care of yourself and do get some legal counsel and formulate a plan. I am so sorry things have devolved to this degree.

[downwiththefog]

IF you are planning on staying for a while, I believe your destination is indifference. Some also call this soul distancing, or emotional detachment. Call it what you want, but the point is to move from hatred, rage and frustration to more of an "oh well" place and attempting to live your life to the best you can despite that person in it. They can do what they want, you're going to do what you want.

I think I said this in another post to you: you need to dial down her voice in your head. Stop listening to her. She does not dictate truth.

Thank you, Thank you @user
Whenever I come to these forums I find some validation - oh! that never ever comes from her ...

[mary_poppins]

@Truthseeker1
Just chimming in on this discussion.

I was never married but I had a narcissistic boyfriend. He was on the mild side in the sense that he understood his behavior showed a lack of empathy and tried to be more empathetic (yet, he didnt succeed, he was who he was). I did stay with him for longer than I'd normally stay with someone since I felt I needed him and it was better to be with someone than alone (especially in a foreign country).

I didn't know so much about narcissism back then but you don't really need a label to identify toxic or disordered behavior. The best way to realize you're with a narcissist or borderline is to check with your feelings. How do you feel with them in general? What's the atmosphere that they create in the relationship?
What's the first thing that pops up in your head when you think of them?

I went to therapy due to my then boyfriend because the majority of the time, I felt incredibly depressed to be around him. I'd be happy to be at work or with friends but, as soon as I went over to my ex's home or went out with him, I'd often think of death, dying, the end of the world and many negative things.
I thought it was me (I have depression) but my negative feelings were amplified around him. He was very neglectful and dismissive of me and my feelings. I couldn't have a deep connection with him, as you said, there was no way we could be vulnerable since vulnerability was not permitted in our relationship.

I was once so sick and I asked him to be with me and support me. He came and he complained so much that he had to be there and why was I so sick and that he was annoyed by my coughing noises (poor thing  )
He didn't do anything to make me feel better, actually he made things worse.

Everything was about him, I had to be 100% for me while it was OK for him to be 10%. But man, the depression of being with him was so bad that I ended up just lying in bed each time I went to his place because he was actually always on his computer and didn't want to do anything anyway.
This went on for years until I took the decision that it's better to be alone, depressed and miserable than with a person who is supposed to add to my life, bring happiness and joy but all they do is add to my depression and create such a cold and sterile (relationship) environment.

It took me a few months in therapy to let him go, the therapist insisted on me getting away from him. So I thought she might be right about it, she knows her job and I trusted her.

Your religious counselor might not understand personality disorders and how it is to be with someone with a personality disorder. I think it's more harmful for us if we go to a counselor to talk about our toxic relationship and they end up being confused about it because they just don't get relationships with borderlines or narcissists.

Better come to this forum or attend support groups for people in relationships with personality disordered individuals. Those are really great places to be, you'll feel so validated and accepted there.

[Truthseeker1]

Update:
It has been over 9 weeks and I did not get sucked back in. I have continued to go to therapy and have shared the family secrets with about 7 people total. It was so liberating to have everyone validate my opinion that this was a toxic relationship. With that being said, however, people who do not understand, borderline or narcissism tend to offer terrible advice. I few of my inner circle have had experience with PD spouses in the past and I appreciate them so much.  Even though I have received a lot of validation, I still struggle with letting go. Collateral damage is a big part of that. The effect this will have on my adult children is unknown. My nieces and nephews have also looked up to me as well. I will try to handle all of this as gracefully as I can but I am not really sure how it's all going to play out.  I do know that it is not right for me to continue and try to maintain an image for my family sake that is not truthful. I think I prefer to let them in on the truth and then try to handle it as gracefully as possible. It's just such a scary position because the truth in our situation is going to be difficult for many people to see. 
Another issue I am having is  I continue to doubt myself, even though I receive so much validation from everyone except my wife. Hers is the voice that speaks the loudest in my head. After all, she is very insightful and she has known me for 34 years. She knows all of my weaknesses, and exactly how to play me. She mixes elements of truth into her comments just enough to make me doubt myself. What I am doing has such significant impact on so many people I feel I really must be certain before I act. It seems I believe things, one minute and the next minute I am in a state of confusion and doubt. I have not actually filed for separation or divorce . I decided I would give things a couple of months because of the enormity of the consequences of my decision. It has been about nine weeks. I have not seen any contrition on her part. Everything continues to be my fault. And truthfully, I am not even missing her. That is so sad. I do miss the idea of a long-term stable relationship. I miss the idea of a long, loving history. We spent such a large portion of our lives together and had many experiences. We have endured many hardships. There is some thing about the relationship that I find difficult to let go of. There is some sentimental value in our life together. It's kind of like looking at a Norman Rockwell picture. It portrays some thing, but it doesn't really portray the truth. It portrays an idea. An idealistic idea but not really the truth. 
And the most difficult part of all is dealing with God on the issue. I absolutely 100% do not want to go against his will fighting him would be like holding back the ocean.
He knows my heart, and he knows my capabilities. He knows I am at the end of my rope. I know he wants what's best for me. I know all of my suffering has pushed me closer and closer to him and for that I am thankful but I so desperately want the suffering to stop. I try to have hope for the future whatever that might be, but I find it really difficult to hope that the relationship would be restored. Restore it is not even the right word because it never was what I hope to someday have. In my mind the only way to have what my heart yearns for is to put this relationship behind me  And move forward in a new one.
So I am sad and hopeful, fearful and relieved. I refuse to go back to what we had but don't know the way forward  either. Feel like a ship adrift at sea. There is a rudder but I am afraid to take hold of the helm when I have no idea which way to point. Even if I don't steer, I am going someplace. Time is rolling on and the ship moves. Where it is going I have no idea. It's pretty uncomfortable but at least the ship is moving.