Wow, we really got an opportunity to practice answering the kids' questions

[sevenyears]

To that end I'm not sure it would be helpful for him to see the emails that H sends. I think really leaning into "WE are right not your mom" doesn't send the right message. (Not that anyone is suggesting that or H is doing it! I just worry it could come across that way). But, if SS is really truly confused about who to believe, I do think it could be helpful for him to see in black and white that things happened exactly the way H said they did. So in the short term it could be helpful to him in trying to figure out the truth, which could help him in the long run in learning to assess whether someone is lying to him. But it also does carry a high risk so maybe it's not worth that. I also really don't think it would be good for him to make it a regular thing to read correspondence between his parents.

I hear your frustration that BM creates such situations! IMO your DS's BM will lie to him about H about many things, the letters being only one thing. Showing him the messages would give him/you something tangible to show that she lies. Thinking out loud here: would it be appropriate for you/your H to tell DS that you don't want to show him the letters because you don't want to BM (or either parent) in a negative light? I dunno. 

[Penny Lane]

I think you've hit on something really helpful here which is that I was struggling to tell DSS why I don't think he should read the emails.

I sort of fumbled around "well uh you know things are really tense between your parents um and I just don't think you really want to ... I mean I'm not sure it would be helpful for you ... you know, your mom sends these messages to your dad and I don't think she would like it if you saw them ... anyway most of the stuff they send is really boring." I went on to describe some of the things they discuss and he said "you're right, that's boring."

It's probably not as bad as I'm remembering it but I was definitely not smooth, and I think the reason is because I didn't really have a good answer for why he shouldn't see them other than "your mom won't like it" and "I don't think you want to know how truly hateful your mom can be towards your dad."

For context he wasn't asking just to see the one message about the lessons, he wanted to be involved in ALL messages between them. Obviously that's a nonstarter for me and DH. I asked why he would want to see them and he said "I feel like I'm in the dark about all this stuff."

Maybe the answer is: Unfortunately it's not appropriate for you to get into that level of detail about the back and forth. Who pays for what, who signs you up for what - those are really things you shouldn't have to worry about at all. Just know that your dad and I will always make it a priority to pay for everything you need, your dad will always try to work with your mom on it, and we will always answer your questions honestly even if you can't see the messages themselves.

That's not a perfect answer and it doesn't address all his concerns but again there's no perfect answer here.

[athene1399]

I think the answer you just came up with is a really good one. A while back, SD was asking SO why he doesn't pay for anything (a BM quote) so we explained to her what we are ordered to pay and what we have been paying and the extra stuff we pay that we aren't required to. This was back when we were going through the court thing so BM was constantly telling SD how SO was a "deadbeat dad" and not paying for anything (because BM wasn't receiving child support... because she doesn't have custody!). We explained how child support works and how even if BM receives it, there's no guarantee the money will go where it needs to go and that under the current agreement SD was getting everything she needed from SO (and the extras). So then after word got back to BM that SO told SD what he pays for and was explained what child support is, it turned into "I don't discuss any of my finances with SD because it's inappropriate." I'm assuming because BM really wanted the child support to pay her bills (she actually told us this) she clammed up about what she wanted the money for when SD asked. I think she was trying to insinuate that what we told SD was inappropriate (maybe it was).

I liked what you came up with because it's like "This is really between your parents and you shouldn't have to worry about it. I don't think you reading the messages is a good idea in case something is taken out of context, but we will honestly answer any question that you have." Maybe he can hear a bit more when he's older? I'm not really sure. It's honestly something I'm on the fence about myself.

[Penny Lane]

So I had a therapist appointment the other day and I thought I'd share what she said in case it's useful for anyone else grappling with a similar situation:

She said it's good that SS is asking all these questions and that we should continue to answer them as truthfully as possible. She also said to expect more like it as he tries to figure out the situation. And she said asking all these questions at once is typical for how teenagers' brains develop.

She said that DH's questions weren't just about figuring out the facts but also about seeing whether it's safe to ask questions like this. Hopefully we showed him that it is.

She also said though that we're allowed to set limits on what we say like "that's a private thing between me and your mom" (for H to say). Or, to say that we need to take a break from questions for the night or that we need some time to think over a question.

She said she thought it'd be OK to show him a message chain if he specifically asks to see it and he has a specific need to, but that he should NOT have carte blanche to read any messages. She also said he should see the whole chain so that he has the context, not just what H writes.

And of course she said don't give him more information than he asks for and do it on his timeline (like don't use this as an excuse to have open season on complaining about his mom).

So! This all gave me a lot to think about and really put my mind at ease - hope it's helpful to others too.

Athene this is what I worry about, that BM will get wind of what we said and turn it around like "how dare you talk to the kids about money?" when she was the one who told them untrue things about money that had to be corrected! But I guess nothing you can do about that.

[Magnolia34]

I was totally Team "DO NOT SHOW THE MESSAGES" but I think your therapist had some REALLY good advice!

I agree with your concern that BM could possibly have a field day if/when she finds out by retaliating or even falsifying emails from your H. But honestly, she probably does that anyway. Any time my DH sends communication to BM he just assumes the kids, her lawyer, parents, are going to read it. 

We haven't had any of DH's kids ask to read correspondence but they've started asking questions about things BM tells them and we've seen most of them respond pretty positively to an age appropriate version of the truth.

Good luck!

[athene1399]

Yup. If the PD parent has any inkling that they are being viewed in a negative light they will say/do all sorts of things to get the attention off of them and on to someone else. "How dare you tell them what is going on! How inappropriate! I don't ever say anything negative about you or our situation... not counting all the times I do just that." 

[Findingmyvoice]

PL,
I'm glad to hear that your T said that it may be appropriate to share conversations.
I have always stayed away from this for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
I get "How dare you involve the kids" and then it comes up in a court affidavit that I am discussing inappropriate things with the kids.

My daughters generally believe me and there is really no reason for me to show them conversations.
However, my son is skeptical of my answers and believes everything that exBPDw tells him.  He does ask similar questions to what you have described and I have often wanted to show him the proof that I am telling the truth and exBPDw is not. 
Kids have told me more than once that exBPDw tells them that I am a liar and to not believe anything I tell them or that I will ask them to lie.  I know that this is projection, but the kids don't.

I did show my son a communication from my ex very early on in our separation, I felt bad about it at the time but he simply would not believe what I was saying.
exBPDw and her mother were campaigning to get the kids to "save the marriage" and they were telling them all sorts of things that were untrue.
My daughters shrugged it off (and took a lot of verbal abuse from exBPDw) , but my son took it very personally and was in tears for hours after the visit.
He was angry at me for things that exBPDw told him and I felt like I had no choice in the situation because he just would not believe me.

[Arkhangelsk]

Penny Lane!
I am so excited about the good conversations you had with your kiddos.  This is wonderful.  It does seem like some critical thinking is going on.  I am very happy to hear it.

If your older son really pushes for access to communications, I would consider allowing it only for a particular topic.  But first, I would actually tell him exactly why you worry about showing him.  Why is it that this is for adults.  Things like:
- Kids are supposed to not have to worry about these things;
- These communications are not necessarily flattering to your parents all the time.  We work to be as polite as possible, but these are hard conversations.  It might not feel good to read them;
- A judge could get upset with us.  We will be responsible for proving that what we did was in your best interest.  The older you become, the easier it is for us to meet the burden of proving that telling and showing you more was good for you;
- We look at all of these issues from our perspective over here.  We know your mother does not see everything the same way we do.  Heck, you probably do not either.  But we also have a lot of history with your mom that is guiding us.  And again, we do not want to show you things that hurt you.  We do want you to feel like you can love us and love your mom too. 

One other thought I have is this - can you reduce the amount of conversation at all?  We did this over the last year.  We are down from 100s of paragraphs in email chains to mere sentences, often only 1 or 2 times a month.  I got there in 2 ways:
- I decided to say a lot less in general.  My custody agreement says the parent with the kids that day gets to decide on the extra curriculars.  So I just do whatever we want to do;
- I basically do not do things that require coordination with my ex.  The kids are sad about this somethings.  I told them that asking their dad does not generally get an answer, so we have to stick with things we can do on our time;
- I respond to messages with as few words as possible.   

Lastly - and most importantly - hugs to you.  You are clearly an empathic, loving person.  Of course it hurts like hell to see these kids all tangled up in this steaming pile of shit.  I am sorry your heart hurts.

[Penny Lane]

A judge could get upset with us.  We will be responsible for proving that what we did was in your best interest.  The older you become, the easier it is for us to meet the burden of proving that telling and showing you more was good for you;

Ok this is genius. Why didn't I just think of ... telling DSS the truth about my biggest concern about this??

On the limiting communication, DH has been trying to do this although he has not implemented it perfectly yet. Our motto is, send her the information she needs to know without asking her to do anything, and only reply to direct questions with information she needs to know. The goal would be that H never asks her for anything. Sometimes the information she needs to know is "If I don't hear from you by X day, I'm going to do Y." It's kind of like a question but it doesn't require any follow ups - she already knows everything she needs to know. He does get sucked back into discussions - and sometimes I don't help him deescalate - but their levels of communication have drastically decreased.

I also have a sad update which is that BM has since ramped up the alienation big time, and this time DSS wasn't in the mood to ask questions and use critical thinking.

Apparently she told SS that the only way he can have a birthday party is if DH gives up parenting time, and she told DSS that there were two options of days H could give up for this to work. In reality there are NO days that H is going to give up in order for her to throw a party, and there are lots of other days that she could do it.

She conveyed this to H by saying "I am going to host a birthday party for SS on X day. It's the only day that works. You can drop him off at X time and pick him up at Y time." 

What makes all this even more frustrating is that one of the reasons she "can't" do it on any other weekend is that she is actually going out of town on DSS's birthday weekend. She wanted H to trade for another weekend, he said no, you can choose to go out of town with your boyfriend and leave the kids here with me, or you can stay here with them. So I guess she told DSS all about this. DSS told us that his mom has a "once in a lifetime opportunity" to go on vacation with her boyfriend. And DSS said it "looks to him" like DH is just trying to take time from his mom by not being willing to trade with her. In reality as you all know, there are tons of reasons that H has decided that he won't trade with her anymore. All of them come down to the fact that she acts so badly and creates so many problems that everyone's life is easier if H just sticks to the letter of the plan. What really makes this infuriating is that H and I had an opportunity (I guess it wasn't "once in a lifetime") to take a similar trip to a similar place. H asked BM to trade time with him. She said no, and so he couldn't come with me. She actually ended up having a huge meltdown over the trade ... that she herself rejected ... later on. And that incident was actually one of the things that spurred H to say "no trades, ever." And she knew H wasn't going to trade with her but chose to go out of town on that weekend anyway.

So the way this all played out was that SS told H that his mom was going to have a party for him. H said, that's great! Just a heads up, the day she wanted to do it doesn't work for us (we have friends  flying in from out of town to see the kids that day!) but I'm sure you can find another day. Well, DSS totally lost it. I guess she had really keyed him up to have this fight. He said this particular weekend was the ONLY weekend that they could do it. And he didn't want to do it at our house. All the other time with his mom in the coming months were not acceptable to him, for unclear reasons that I think boil down to "BM said they didn't work." Finally he brought up the trading of days and said he had come up with the idea to tell H that he wants him to trade days with BM. When we said that's not on the table, he ran into his room sobbing.

H and I were like ... what the heck just happened???

So I went in to talk to him. At first he did NOT want to hear what I had to say, so I told him I would just snuggle with him until he listened to me. Finally he piped up. "Am I going to like hearing what you have to say?" I said, "I don't know, let's find out."

Basically I told him that I can see how hard this is for him, and how frustrated he is. I said I understand that he's not happy with his dad for not trading time with his mom, but that I trust that he has the problem solving skills to figure out what he wants to do to have a birthday party anyway. And if he wants to think through what his options are, I'd be happy to talk to him about it. I also told him that I too get frustrated about having to live with the agreement that his parents made without any of my input, but it's important that we all follow the agreement.

Then I said that I also think he has really good critical thinking skills and I wanted to give him more context for why his dad made this decision. He said "I understand it! Dad thinks that it causes problems when they do trades." And I said yes that's right but there's more. I reminded him that his dad used to travel for work and where did he used to stay when that happened? (With his mom). Did they trade time, or did they just stay with her? (they just stayed with her). I also told him that for awhile after that, DH did make trades with BM. But what we found was that it was very disruptive to the schedule and it was very hard to plan around because sometimes his mom would change it at the last minute and she often sent accusations about the trade that H found very difficult to deal with. Furthermore, I told SS that his mom often doesn't agree to trades that H asked for (like the one I talked about earlier). I asked, do you think your dad makes better decisions when he and your mom are arguing, or when things are calm between them? And SS said "when things are calm." But he pointed out (and he's not wrong) that there is currently a problem being caused over this. I said, yeah that's true so in this case either way there will be problems and your dad has to decide what option he can live with.

I gave examples of how these are the rules that BOTH parents live by. I reminded him of a time that H was unavailable and that the kids just stayed with BM, no trade. I also explained that even if we have no specific plans on a certain day, both H and I arrange our work/social schedules around the kids. I reminded him how bummed he gets when I make plans with my friends to spend most of the day away from the house. And I said that because of that I really plan stuff around the kids, and so it ends up being really disruptive to me when they make changes to the schedule. At this point he was kind of smiling and laughing, though he was clearly still mad.

DSS said, well what if dad just agreed to trade with mom this one time? What if he agreed to a trade but if it causes any problems the trade is canceled? I said, I think that is some GREAT problem solving, and I would love it if his parents could get back to a place where trades are on the table. (That is true, although I left off the fact that I think it's doubtful it'll ever happen. I do WISH they could have a better relationship that allowed for changes like trades). But, I said I don't think that's going to happen before you have a birthday party so we need to look at the options that are on the table now. He said, I know what option I want which is that dad trades with mom! I said, well, another option would be that your mom skips her trip. He said, well I don't want her to do that! I said, ok, so one option is that they trade, but your dad isn't ok with that. Another option is that your mom skips her trip, but she's not ok with that. Should we look for solutions that work for everyone? How about these other dates?  How about you have it over here? He didn't really commit to any of them but I do think it got his mind working. Later he shifted from saying "I can't have a birthday party because of you" to "I can't have it on the exact day I want because of you," which I thought was an improvement.

And then he said that he is going to make it his mission to make his parents get along better. I said, you know what, no kid in the history of the world has been able to do that. It's just not within your power. It's kind of sad - and I wish I could make it better too! - but it's also kind of freeing, you just don't have to worry about it because you can't do anything anyway.

I told him the ways I try to get his parents to have a better relationship: to encourage his dad to use problem solving skills, to help his dad write emails in a way that is productive and can't be misinterpreted as mean, stuff like that. And I said, do you know what I think you could do to help? You know when your mom tells you something and it makes you mad at your dad? What do you think you should do? He said "come here and talk to dad and see what he has to say about it before I get mad." And it seemed like he really did get it. I told him another thing he could do to help is to let us know if we're ever doing something that makes him feel put in the middle. I also told him that everyone here wants him to grow up to be happy and healthy and make good decisions, so the best thing he can really do is to focus on that.

He's getting a lot of quality time with his dad, DH, this week so hopefully that'll counteract all the alienation going on. I mean it's honestly unbelievable (although it's not) - she told DSS that he can't have a birthday party unless she takes DH's parenting time! It's like she read a textbook about parental alienation and is going through all the methods until she can find one that affects SS. It's just horrific - this poor kid.

[hhaw]

Penny Lane:

You're giving your ss a voice, and the feeling he can impact his life.  It's an amazing gift, and I'm so happy to read your post. 

Is it terrible bio m is doing this?

Yup.

Is it something you can expect the rest of your life. 

Yep.

Honestly, calmly processing what happened, remaining calm despite the bone headed manipulation by bio mom, is really hard to do, IME.  Bio mom meant to trigger you and your dh.  It failed.

You didn't tell ss what to think.  You didn't condemn what bio mom did.  You had compassion for ss, nad you shared your frustrations over the Agreement too. Everyone has frustrations.  No one gets everything they want, and there are ways to limit that frustration, or escalate it.

Your ss SEES this.  What an amazing lesson!

You've mastered talking to ss, truthfully,  without making him feel defensive on his mom's behalf.  That's HUGE!

Congrats.  That's a lucky little boy, with an amazing step mom.

[Arkhangelsk]

Wow.  I am so sorry.

Like Hhaw, I think you did an amazing job.  This is a HUGE step, I think:

"'I can't have a birthday party because of you' to 'I can't have it on the exact day I want because of you,' which I thought was an improvement."

Also, this kid knows you are on his side and trying to help him work through an impossible situation.  That is wonderful.

It seems like you are in a tough spot by having a hard and fast rule on no trades.  I completely understand the reason to make the rule.  I am torn between whether it seems like the best plan to stick to your guns, or to ponder that the rules might need to shift once the child can start to weigh in.  There is never a perfect answer.

[athene1399]

I am a firm believe of no trades because it just never works out for the non parent. Especially when alienation is involved and the PD parent is always trying to get more time. Just my own opinion based on our situation.

I think you did a great job talking with SS and building his critical thinking skills. You also gave him power back and told him how he can help and explained to him how to accept how things are sometimes. This was a tough situation and you handled it beautifully.

I'm sorry the situation is sucky (especially since it affects SS and his party). But you taught him the importance of trying to not say things when you're upset and to work towards a solution. You also told him his feelings are okay, because the situation does suck and is frustrating. You also showed how BM can't do it on a certain day because of x, but this other day doesn't work for H due to his own important reasons. So trying to find a third option will have to work. Through my experiences, I've learned how to try to see the third option. I don't have to be stuck between BM and SO. I usually can think outside the box and say to SO, we're not stuck between two decisions no one wants. You want x, she wants y, why can't we do z? And he always says, "I never thought of that." At first though, I would get so emotional about the unfairness that I couldn't see that third option. Being able to see that other option has diffused so many situations. I hope you guys are able to find a good third option.

On a side note, it didn't sound like BM invited H to the party even though she is supposed to. It sounded to me like it was "I demand you to give me more time. Also drop off SS and you aren't allowed to come..." I was a little irked since you were just talking about this earlier in this thread (how she never invites H yet you guys invite her... and she never shows). I guess I shouldn't be surprised that her demands were unfair and that she turned around and said to SS "It's all dad's fault you can't have your party".  I am so sorry this happened.

[Penny Lane]

Thank you guys so much, I went back and read these messages several times. This is hard! So hard! And people in my real life just don't understand how difficult it is to sit with a sobbing preteen who's had just awful things about his dad put into his head. Thank you, thank you.

Athene, lol, yes, she is definitely not inviting H to the party. That's fine - he doesn't feel safe at her house anyway and I think that gives him the freedom to not invite her to the kids' parties that we host in the future (we DEFINITELY don't feel safe with the idea of her at our house).

Now we need to figure out what to do about BM. Between this and a couple other things she's said lately, she seems to be really escalating toward not letting the kids return to H's house at some point to force some kind of standoff. That would entail court motions, potentially calling the police, etc. Which we could do, but it would be terrible for everyone. So this morning we talked about finding ways to deescalate. It would definitely be a departure from our recent "brief information only" strategy. But maybe that's occasionally necessary. So I think DH is going to make a real push to show her and SS all the options for birthday parties, on both his and her time. We'll see how it goes. My hope is that this is one last temper tantrum over the new "no trades" policy and it'll die down soon. That's been her pattern when H has set other boundaries.

Arkhangelsk, on the trades, I'm torn too. On one hand, trades weren't always bad. And I don't think it sets a good example to the kids to be inflexible about stuff like this. But on the other, when BM caused problems with trades she REALLY caused problems with trades. Ultimately DH feels pretty strongly about this whereas I don't, and he makes the final call. But I do think even if he was doing trades, her choosing to go on a trip with her boyfriend is not a good enough reason to change parenting time and disrupt everyone else's schedule twice (once when she leaves and once on the weekend that is traded). I would also say that changing the rules because SS can weigh in - well, I don't think it's a great precedent to set. If H shifts his boundaries now in response to a request from a child that's had alienation working on him, that would teach BM that manipulating the kids works and she would do it more.

I will say, if there's ever a trade that's for the kids' benefit (rather than just for the convenience of any of the adults, including us) I would lobby H to allow it. I honestly can't think of a time that's come up - maybe if BM didn't want to take the kids to some event that they needed to go to? That's never happened though - I can't imagine she would admit that she doesn't want to take them to something.

One thing that makes me really sad about this, and I talked about it earlier in the thread, is that this is forcing into the open that BM is choosing to take a trip with her boyfriend rather than be with the kids. These are decisions that parents make all the time and it's not for me to decide if it's the right or the wrong decision. But it's not fun for the kids to know that she'd rather spend that weekend with her latest boyfriend than with them, you know? If she hadn't made an issue of it we wouldn't have said anything to the kids and they probably wouldn't have realized. But now it's out in the open and H was forced to point out that BM has options and one option is to NOT take this trip - and that's the option that H picked when he was making a similar decision. I really do think that thought was part of the reason DSS was so upset. And like so much of this there's really nothing we can do to shield him from the sadness it causes.

[Heavyhat]

Just wanted to say that I'm here and grateful for this discussion. It is really impressive how hard you're all working and the kids are lucky to have such intentional, thoughtful role models in their lives. My kids are all still pretty young but my SO and I talk about this topic sometimes and I know we are going to be talking about it a lot more as they get older. My kids already ask us why they all don't play at BM's house ever. SD wondered why they all couldn't go to the same school this year. And of course we get the parroted questions and statements from SD.

So thank you. It is nice to know I'm not alone and that you all are here with so much accumulated wisdom to share.

[athene1399]

I know all PDs are different, but I'll try to run through some of the ways we've dealt with similar situations. Maybe some of it will be helpful or spark an idea. Also,I've been a little anxious lately and it may show in my post.

We had a few standoffs with BM about getting SD back. SO and I would show up to pick up SD, and BM would refuse and threaten the cops so we would leave because we didn't want to cause a scene. That happened twice I think. The third time she threatened with the cops, I told SO to tell her to go ahead because I had the custody agreement on me and it shows that SO is the custodial guardian. A few seconds later, SD walked out and no one called the cops. That was the last time she threatened with the cops for us picking up SD. She found ways around that that we had to deal with, but that's another story.

I'm wondering if you think BM would give in to letting the kids go (when you show up to get them on your time and she refuses) if the cops are threatened. Or in the past did they actually have to show up for her to let the kids go?  Or could you remind her she is being "in contempt" of the current agreement and if it becomes a problem you will have to file something? Another time BM threatened us with court over something ridiculous (I think it was when we asked to see the medicaid refusal letter. The insurance lapsed and BM said medicaid would backdate and reimburse her for what prescriptions she bought but she still wanted money from SO for half. He refused and said he would only pay half if she showed him the denial letter from medicaid- because she claimed they weren't paying her back and that the denial letter was "none of his business". She threatened with court and he said go ahead. Then nothing happened. She stopped asking for the money and no court).

What has worked in the past for you in this situation? Or was it different every time? In my example, she found new threats we had to deal with and work through. It's almost like a hydra, you cut off one head and two more pop up. As soon as we figure out a solution around what she's doing, she comes up with a new way/threat we have to figure out.  I think that's really only caused me to be hypervigilent and trying to think up all possible problems before hand (still not sure if that's good for me).

Can you find a common thread in what has worked? For us, when BM knows she is in the wrong yet threatening us, we can usually call her bluff. I don't know if your BM is like that. But maybe you can find a common thread between all the ways you've diffused this in the past to create new ways to help the situation.

And the way we talked to SD about her having to be with dad on his time (because BM put it in her head that we were forcing her to be with dad) was that this is the current agreement and until a judge changes the agreement, you legally need to see dad (we phrased it better than that, but that's what was basically said). But maybe also brainstorm ways to talk to the kids about why you listen to what the court agreements says and why it's important to see both parents and stick to a schedule (or however you want to put it). Ultimately whatever BM chooses to do to refuse to let you get the kids, I'm sure she'll make sure they get put in the middle. But on a positive note, you've been effectively handling everything she's thrown at you and have been teaching great skills to the kids. I know you can figure it out and it will be fine in the end even if you're going through a rough patch now. It won't always be like this. At some point it will get better.

[Arkhangelsk]

Penny Lane -
I hear you.  You do not want to set a precedent that working through the child gets BM what she wants.  We generally have a policy of letting the kids suffer the consequences of whatever crazy thing their dad is doing.  But recently, the 7-year old approached my partner and asked for 5 bucks for a school pizza party on his dad's day.  My partner enforced the rule that it is dad's day and dad should pay.  And this poor little kid just made thing bereft little face and said very seriously, "I do not think my dad will give it to me and I am going to miss the pizza party."  My partner told the kid he was sorry about that and gave him a hug.  But the next morning he turned to me and said, "I am so sad for this kid and I am going to give him 5 bucks.  I am going to ask him to ask his dad for the money, but let him know he can have my 5 bucks as a back-up."  Sigh.  Never a perfect answer.  But I hope the take away was not manipulation works... but that the child see us as people who will help him solve some unfair things, if we can.

Our rule on trades is actually that we do not ask for them - but we do grant them, when we are asked.  A major reason behind this is that the ex rarely asks and when he does it is to do something with his family and the kids.  When we asked for trades, it always resulting in an exchange of epic emails and us never getting the green light.

But, I do have a thing coming up and I am chewing on making the first ask in several years.  I will make this its own thread and gather some advice.  I just thought I would mention our rule here - because, as you said, if a trade will benefit the kids, then it might be worth making space for it.  We sort of decided that it is going to suck to be parented by my ex in a lot of ways, so we would "eat" the idea that it is unfair that we get no trade benefits in favor of showing the kids that we make reasonable decisions for their benefit.  But, in your case, where it sounds like maybe they scheduled a vacation for themselves, I really see your point.  Most vacations can be scheduled on other days.  Also - birthday parties can be scheduled on other days.  There is NO reason they cannot have the party 2 or 3 weeks before or after the actual birthday.  You are doing ZERO things to stop this kid from having a party.  I thought about it and I think that is what I would tell the kid - "Look, we love you and want you to have a great birthday.  Sometimes that involves making plans before or after the actual date.  That is a thing we do all the time for holidays, because you guys celebrate with us and you celebrate with your mom.  So, it is awesome that your mom is going to throw you a party.  She is free to do it - because there are tons of weekends when she has you.  So she can have her vacation and she can have your party.  We hope you have a ton of fun.  Meanwhile, we are going to make plans on our weekends with you and we will also have a ton of fun."

The verb tenses are intentional.  "You mom IS going to..."  Because she should.  You just do not need to be involved. 

[Penny Lane]

Arkhangelsk - we have that policy too but I would 100% have done what your partner did. At some point, is the philosophical argument that the kids need to learn to deal with their dad more important than just getting to be a kid at a pizza party? Plus, like he said, it's just sad to see.

I don't think BM has ever asked for a trade in order to have a family activity. It's always that she wants to make up time because she's going on vacation, or sometimes traveling for work. She used to occasionally ask H to have the kids so she could do something with the family of whatever guy she was seeing at the time (like an afternoon outing) and he would say yes. Occasionally she would agree to the same sort of thing. But as things devolved she started refusing and stopped asking. One time she did ask for a trade for a legitimate family thing, H said yes, and then she got mad and canceled it the night before, and let him know by telling him while he was talking to the kids on the phone that he wouldn't see them the next day. So that definitely contributed to the "no trades" rule.

Even beyond that, a big part of the reason he doesn't like trades is that they mean that the kids will be with her for a longer stretch, and they invariably come back exhausted and usually mad at DH. Even a couple extra days tacked on to the end of a weekend sets the kids back for a couple weeks. It's not as big of a deal in the summer, but during the school year it's really tough on them. And since BM has literally told DH that she doesn't think it's her job to get the kids to bed at a reasonable time, I think there's not much he can do but to say "no, you can't have MORE nights with them."

The bigger picture issue I see here is that she keeps trying to encroach on his parenting time. When they switched last year from 60/40 to 50/50, I think she was OK with it because she thought it would be exactly equal. But between their work schedules and her vacations, it ends up being more like, 55/30/15. Meaning the kids are with H 55% of the time, her 30% of the time and her parents the remainder of the time. If she actually followed the right of first refusal, H's percentage would push to more like 60-65. My concern is that she is going to try to remedy this "disparity" but rather than actually committing to be with the kids more she will just keep trying to take away H's time.

athene, as I see it when she is threatening to do something insane/contrary to the parenting plan, H has a few options: 1. live with it 2. decide that if she can do it, he can do and proceed accordingly (like, if you aren't going to follow right of first refusal I won't either) 3. find a consequence to the action that requires her to either pay money or be embarrassed in front of people she cares about (no other consequence really has any effect).

So if she won't turn the kids over he can just say, OK, not worth the hassle. He did that when she kept the kids on one of his holidays this year, for very thin reasoning. He could say, OK, then you can't pick up the kids for your next parenting day. But I think that opens a real can of worms where they both just refuse to turn over the kids. Or, he can call the police (embarrass her in front of her neighbors) or file a motion in court (make her pay - actually her parents pay for her lawyer but she REALLY hates court, so this would probably be effective).

Normally I would say that if she won't hand the kids over, he should call the police. And if they won't make it happen he should get lawyers involved.

If - as she's now threatening - the handoff would happen WHILE the birthday party is going on, calling the police seems too harmful to the kids.

There's another option, which is to group text all the other parents and say "there must have been some confusion because my parenting time starts now and I made other plans months ago for the kids. So sorry to cut this party short, but do you want me to drop your kids off when I pick up mine?" I don't like that option either because I think it draws other parents into it needlessly.

So I guess, live with it? Cancel the first part of our plans with our friends? Hope that she comes to her senses? Negotiate that he pick them up late, but earlier than she wants, so the kids can still do all the stuff that we planned (but you don't negotiate with terrorists)? Show up at the appointed time and then wait outside her house until she sends the kids out?

She's done this kind of thing before and it always stresses me out a lot. This time she's bringing the kids into it. I'm trying not to let it ruin my week because ultimately it's a few hours and I really do think she'll calm down after her vacation. But man she can always find a way to make everything worse for everyone.

[Arkhangelsk]

Ugh.  She is a piece of work, Penny Lane.

We had one incident of keeping the kids an extra day.  We did not call the police.  My lawyer said kids always get upset about that and rarely at the right parent.  What we do is file in court - swiftly and consistently.  Yes - this costs money.  But, over time we saw improvement.  The ex hates court and he tends to lose there (because we do not do dumb ass shit and he does).  So now he knows that stepping out of bounds gets a fast response and he has stayed in bounds far more.  Bullies tend to need a firm response.

This is another reason why we choose to give on trades, but not seek them.  When we go to court, we have a record that we are crazy reasonable.  The judge knows this.  The last time we went (to get to take the kids to the science fair, after the ex refused to allow us to exercise the part of our custody order that requires that kids and parents get to go to certain school events, no matter whose day it is) the judge did not even let my ex's lawyer speak before ruling in our favor. 

So, it is kind of an investment in future returns for us.  Granted it costs a few hundred bucks each time.  But we went 3-4 times in 2018 and only 1 thus far in 2019.  And the issues have become smaller - which takes less time in drafting the motion.

[Penny Lane]

The lawyer wanted a $3,500 retainer for a contempt motion so that might not be as feasible for him as it is for you. Especially over what amounts to a few hours - is the judge really going to care about that? (Maybe if you go that route you include the alienation and get the judge to order her to stop putting DSS in the middle?) But it's good to remember we have that option in our back pocket if it ever gets to the level where it IS worth spending that much money. Still, maybe there's a middle ground there which is to send a note to her lawyer and see if the lawyer can encourage her to not violate the order.

Neither of us ended up being able to write that deescalation email that he wanted to (the draft started out well - "we both want the same thing here" - and devolved pretty quickly into JADEing) so he scrapped it and just sent a BIFF email reiterating that he's not giving up parenting time for this. We'll see what happens.

Edited to add: One thing that's really stressing me out about DSS's being put in the middle of it is that I really don't want him to get the message that it's OK to ignore the parenting schedule when you really want to do something with the other parent. Maybe the plan I need to be working on is what to say to DSS before he goes back to his mom's house for this party.

"I expect you to follow the rules"? "I will be very disappointed if you don't follow the rules and be respectful to your dad's time, my time and my friends' time"? Say nothing? Afterward impart to him how serious this is and that we expect there never to be a repeat? Take a far gentler tone, considering his mom probably wouldn't allow him to leave at the right time even if he insisted, and understanding how hard or even impossible it would be for him to insist?

[Arkhangelsk]

Ahhhh, yes.  I forgot about the retainer.  My lawyer is forever on retainer, so I am over the hump of sending in that first amount.  Honestly, I sold my house and put a chunk of the proceeds in an account that I have mentally handed over to paying my lawyer.  And my ex is suing me to try to increase child support, so the little trips to motions court feel like drops of water in a much larger pond.  Basically, I am sending my lawyer's kids to college instead of mine.     [All to argue ridiculous things about which no one should argue...... ]

If you do not have representation now, then sending letters to BM's lawyer is a reasonable idea.  It costs BM money when her lawyer reads these letters and calls her to tell her what to do.  The risk there is overstating your case.  Stick to things that are really clear.  "Our custody agreement says ____.  BM keeps doing _____ instead.  This is a violation of the order and not in the best interests of the children.  Please advise your client to refrain from violating the order."  Sometimes giving the lawyer some negative facts causes them to warn the PD to simmer down.  Then that letter goes on as an exhibit to any future contempt motion you file. 

Sigh.  There is nothing cheap about lawyers.  I am one - but do not specialize in divorce.  I think your last email was a good idea.  Perhaps you just say no briefly with no explanation everytime or ignore what you can.

By the way - I ended up having to take over this part of things.  My partner was getting super stressed by it.  So now I tell him only absolutely need to know things about the strategy - things that will affect his life.  I think this is made more possible by the fact that we have a pretty developed game plan at this point.  There needs to be time to just live and enjoy each other too!