decision tool

[Doggo]

I have an appt with a lawyer on Friday and a sort of excuse ready as to where I will be and my sister coming to meet me for emotional support. As I posted earlier this week, am a wreck and waffling crazily back and forth. I saw the T today--he said go to the lawyer and get information. Don't have to make a decision, but get information. And he suggested this form, which I thought might help other people. Am finding it's helping me think clearer about my choices:

https://www.nova.edu/gsc/forms/client_handout_3_1_decisional_balance_exercise.pdf

Just a note--it's mainly for substance abuse and making a change from that, but it works for choices about staying/going, too

[Findingmyvoice]

This is a good tool, Doggo.

I did a very similar decision analysis on my own.  My biggest concern was for my children so I wrote out the pros and cons and found out quickly that it was better for me and exBPDw to separate.  The dream of having a stable home with two supportive, loving parents was never going to happen.  It was better for the kids to have a break from their mother and have a stable, supportive, loving home at least half of the time.
One of the cons that I still struggle with is that when the kids are at their mother's home there is nothing I can do to support, help, protect them.  When we were together I could step in and de-escalate, reason, support the kids if I was at home or at the end of the day, but now I sometimes have to wait a few days until kids get home from the ex's house.

I did the same for all of my concerns related to separation.  Finances, my own health, extended family, my spouse's health and wellbeing.  It became clear that it was better to separate on all fronts.  Even with finances, I am ok with having less money as long as I have some control and not always in debt from out of control spending.

[Doggo]

I am gradually accepting the less-money/probably have to live at my brother's to survive--he has a small 'mother in law' apt in his house.

Something that really is bothering me and preventing my moving ahead is my H's long-term prospects--and having to weigh that on the decisional balance. I know this isn't/shouldn't be MY job...but my boss was telling me about her brother, who late in life they realized had Autism spectrum. Like my h, her brother had a law degree. Was never able to function as an adult--and refused to move out of the family home even when both parents had passed away. There was no one there to care for him at that--he wouldn't move near my boss, who offered to help him daily--and he died alone in the family house.

So I am having nightmares--my Dr Google assessment of the H could be wrong--it could be autism spectrum (it runs in his family, in fact)--and his behavior could not be PD and narcissistic, but something less deliberately malignant. I know it's the impact on me that's important--but at the same time, I can't just abandon someone to a fate like that (only one relative could possibly care for him).

bleh. 

[Poison Ivy]

Doggo, you sound like a very compassionate person.  That is a good thing.  But the fact that your husband might be on the autism spectrum does not mean that you have to stay married to him so that he has someone to take care of him.  Being on the spectrum does not necessarily equal being unable to take care of oneself.

I firmly believe that anyone who can get a law degree is able to take care of himself or herself.  Your boss's brother dying alone in the family home?  Many people strive for that outcome for themselves. 

Edited to add:  My ex-husband said to me a few times before our divorce that he was "barely able to take care of" himself.  That was the reason he gave for not having a job, not helping around the house, and not providing emotional support to me and our children. My belief is that he can take care of himself, he just chooses not to sometimes.

[notrightinthehead]

Doggo, just wondering, what did your boss (the one with the brother) suggest you do? Her story seems to have made you feel guilty, was that the intention?

[Doggo]

Doggo, just wondering, what did your boss (the one with the brother) suggest you do? Her story seems to have made you feel guilty, was that the intention?

No, not at all--I told her my story after she told me about my brother. She gave me the name of an autism support group she used to go to--said it was a relief for her to hear other people talk about the difficulty of having a loved one with autism.

[notrightinthehead]

Could it be that some part of you hopes there is a diagnosis of an illness and this will allow you to stay in full helper mode because what would that make you if you left an ill partner?

[Doggo]

Could it be that some part of you hopes there is a diagnosis of an illness and this will allow you to stay in full helper mode because what would that make you if you left an ill partner?

Sadly, yes. After 20 yrs, I feel a responsibility.  Clearly he does not.

[notrightinthehead]

Well, that makes you a responsible, helpful, caring person.  Nothing wrong with that. Because of these attributes, you can be exploited by someone who wishes to do so. The anger you feel sometimes might result from your inner voice telling you, that you are being taken advantage of. Your caring nature is being used against you.
Again, being a care taker is not a negative attribute. Care takers are responsible, resilient, resourceful people. And there are some people out there who are only too happy to ensnare a care taker to make a comfortable life at their cost. Sometimes belittling the care taker on top of it to keep them trying harder.
Do you think you might be a care taker? 

[Doggo]

Well, that makes you a responsible, helpful, caring person.  Nothing wrong with that. Because of these attributes, you can be exploited by someone who wishes to do so. The anger you feel sometimes might result from your inner voice telling you, that you are being taken advantage of. Your caring nature is being used against you.
Again, being a care taker is not a negative attribute. Care takers are responsible, resilient, resourceful people. And there are some people out there who are only too happy to ensnare a care taker to make a comfortable life at their cost. Sometimes belittling the care taker on top of it to keep them trying harder.
Do you think you might be a care taker?

Less than I used to be, at least: Over the past few weeks, I have given him an ultimatum and I keep repeating it--get a job, start taking responsibility for your life, or we are done. Am crossing fingers and seeing what happens because so far he is studying for the bar (whereas before he got materials and did nothing with them), has called about some jobs, and for the first time in 19 years together today he went and did something on his own, without my urging or supporting him--he went to church, and not with me with him. So let's see if he sustains this pattern and makes changes in his life that I can live with.

Meanwhile--I went and saw friends this morning on my own for the first time in years--and brought a huge box of Dunkin Munchkins to celebrate.

[Doggo]

Do you think you might be a care taker?

You know, I couldn't stop coming back to your question. Yeah--the answer is yes. It runs in the family.

[notrightinthehead]

Well then, maybe your partner is well aware of that attribute of yours and uses it to his own advantage against you. Have you come across the book by Fijelstad 'Stop caretaking the borderline/narcissist' ?

[Doggo]

Well then, maybe your partner is well aware of that attribute of yours and uses it to his own advantage against you. Have you come across the book by Fijelstad 'Stop caretaking the borderline/narcissist' ?

Yes, read that last year. Also recently read Stop Walking on Eggshells. We are now in the 'desperately doing things to prove his worth' stage, unfortunately. And waiting on a final appeal of his disability case, so he claims he can't work meantime.

[Arkhangelsk]

Oh Doggo - I am so sorry.  You are clearly a person with a huge heart.

It does feel awful to step back, especially when you think a person will fall because of it.  But what I eventually realized was that my behavior enabled my ex-husband (also a lawyer who sits alone in his house and does not work, and a person with a few mental health diagnoses) to not have any reason to seek help or try to get better.

Now, almost 4 years post divorce, there are a whole lot of things he does go do for himself - like buy food and cook it and serve it to our kids the 50 percent of the time he has them.  And other things he does not do, like pay all his bills or ever have his mail sent to his new address.  But he does way more adulating than he did when married to me.  AND I am not living a wretched life of misery.

Consider showing your husband the respect of treating him like he is a capable human being.  And yourself the respect of only owning what is yours to own.

[Doggo]

Oh Doggo - I am so sorry.  You are clearly a person with a huge heart.

It does feel awful to step back, especially when you think a person will fall because of it.  But what I eventually realized was that my behavior enabled my ex-husband (also a lawyer who sits alone in his house and does not work, and a person with a few mental health diagnoses) to not have any reason to seek help or try to get better.

Now, almost 4 years post divorce, there are a whole lot of things he does go do for himself - like buy food and cook it and serve it to our kids the 50 percent of the time he has them.  And other things he does not do, like pay all his bills or ever have his mail sent to his new address.  But he does way more adulating than he did when married to me.  AND I am not living a wretched life of misery.

Consider showing your husband the respect of treating him like he is a capable human being.  And yourself the respect of only owning what is yours to own.

Thank you, Arkhangelsk. This forum has been such a great source of support.

What is it with these guys and lawyering? My h is a lawyer. Is it that NPDs are drawn to it because it makes them feel superior to everyone else?

As for enabling--his latest plan tonight is to find online work in the state he has his law license (he can't be licensed where we live because he defaulted on his student loans and can't take the bar here). So he wants me to be supportive and enthusiastic--but how many times can you get enthusiastic about yet another scheme to earn a living when none of the others have ever come to pass? And when the other really disturbing behaviors (24/7 online chatting with  women...girls barely 20, for one) haven't changed at all?

The H talks a lot about cognitive dissonance and how people will readjust their beliefs to avoid it. I find I'm strugglign with it--how can i love/stay married to a man who has so badly taken advantage of me? That makes no sense--cognitive dissonance--therefore it must be me and my faulty and negative view of everything he does and my failure to support him (again) in his efforts to change.

[notrightinthehead]

--how can i love/stay married to a man who has so badly taken advantage of me? That makes no sense--

it is cognitive dissonance. It might be that you are telling yourself that you deserve nothing better. That it is your duty to do what is necessary. That it is your responsibility to change your partner. That you said yes once and now are bound by it. That it is your fault for not having left so many years ago and now it is too late. That you have not yet tried the right thing that will finally get through to him and make him grow up.

Often it is simply the failure or unwillingness to believe what is so clearly before our eyes, because - how can somebody be like this? treat us this way? - it just can't be possible.

[Doggo]

I think it's a combination of these three things:
[[That it is your fault for not having left so many years ago and now it is too late.
That you have not yet tried the right thing that will finally get through to him and make him grow up.
Often it is simply the failure or unwillingness to believe what is so clearly before our eyes, because - how can somebody be like this? treat us this way? - it just can't be possible.]]

And then I come on here and am stunned to read stories about yet another behavior that he does that other people here have to deal with--when I thought it was just him.  Yesterday I read a discussion on these boards about PDs berating others for 'cutting them off' when they're speaking.

He does that to me if I interrupt one of what I call his magnificent monologues. He claims, as an excuse, that he has ADHD (diagnosed/treated) and that he at times HAS TO blurt out the ideas in his head. That may be so--but it's not an excuse to then get angry and insulting if, like any normal conversation, I interrupt him. So it was really an eye opener to see that it's a problem other people have too.

I have blamed myself for it--he will be off on a monologue about some "clever" idea that he has--and when I finally get a word in, I feel like I can't help blurting out something about what I am actually thinking, usually something that needs to get done, completely off whatever he is ranting about--eg, "We're going to need to buy dog food today" instead of "Gee, I don't know why cars don't have the {ridiculously complicated and likely expensive} clever idea you have"--which of course makes him angrier. But I have always blamed myself for not being a good listener. Duh. Some days--most days--it feels just like a wall of sound coming at me, drowning out my own thoughts and needs when often what I want and need is just some quiet time as a break from my job.

[Arkhangelsk]

Magnificent monologues!  I LOVE the term. 

My ex is ALSO ADHD and also monologues in exactly this way.  Now I only hear about them from the kids.  My 9 year old makes no bones about rolling his eyes.  Fantastic schemes for lawsuits against gas stations for rounding up a part of a penny and -YES- why products like cars do not have some allegedly perfect modification.

Here is a thing that is true, Doggo.  Your thinking is distorted.  And it is focused on him.  This is how he wants it.  But it makes it really hard for you to engage in any real analysis about how to carve a path to a better life.  May I suggest giving CoDependant No More by Melody Beattie a read?  It is a good place to start with some of the thoughts you are having.  It helped me a great deal.

[capybara]

"Magnificent monologues" is PERFECT! BPDH always accuses me of interrupting him during arguments. last time it happened in couples T and I apologized, and then the therapist pointed out that he had just asked me a question. 

[Doggo]

Thanks, Arkhangelsk--I have it on my kindle--have to re-read it this year. There are so many layers to this--it's creepy. (And the fantastic modifications to cars--YIKES--I never thought anyone else would have to sit through and listen to that!!)

Last night I re-read You Can Lead a Horse to Water but you Can't Make it Cha-Cha. It is helping me realize how much he love-bombs, is passive aggressive with 'jokes,' and really twists things around and distorts them (he is careful about lying--he hates being caught in a lie)--to make try to make me feel sorry for him.  Except just in this past week, I have finally started being able to NOT feel sorry for him. That whole magical thinking thing of 'if only he got a job/got serious about therapy/stopped spending nearly 24/7 sexting women on Discord chat servers, he would be a fun/wonderful person to be with.' Yeah.....right.....