How Long Did It Take?

[tommom]

Talked to a young woman recently who recounted the story of her marriage to an abuser. She said "On our wedding day, right after the reception, he took me on a romantic helicopter ride. After we got out and were standing on the tarmac, he grabbed my arm and said 'You're mine now, b$tch!" She left him that day. Another dear, dear friend of mine, was remarried after twenty years marriage to, and a divorce from, a man who I now realize was probably PD. She met me and another friend for lunch after coming back into the city where I live to tell us....she had, after six weeks, divorced her second husband. "On our wedding night, he just changed...into someone else!" (There was always something off about him, just couldn't put my finger on it back then.) We spent an hour telling her what she did was okay, bless her sweet heart.

So the question is: was it this quick for you? My PDh seemed pleasant and fine for really, about 14 or 15 years. I remember the first day I complained about how he had changed. I remember thinking "Am I going to have to be divorced at my age?" so I really remember all too well.  I don't feel sorry for those two friends, they were lucky IMHO. So did your pwPD show behaviors immediately? Or like my H, did it take a long time? And do you have any idea why?

I can't say if he held me on the 'white hat' side or if his disorder was still being purposefully hidden. Or maybe, since his parents (I found out years later) always gave us money during this time, so that he was always financially comfortable limiting his stress. Of course, it doesn't really matter why, I know, but it is a little curious. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[NoVoice357]

Hi tommom,

So the question is: was it this quick for you?

When Cluster B PDs start to treat their partner differently and become manipulative and abusive, it means that the Golden Period comes to an end and the Devaluation Period begins. The Golden Period usually lasts from 6 months up to 2-3 years (no more than that), starting from the day the relationship began. Sometimes there is no Golden Period at all, especially when the PD is physically aggressive.

There are partners who do not realize they are being manipulated and controlled by the NPD (that is, they have just entered the Devaluation stage) because their PD's behaviour seems so natural to them. It is what they knew from their FOO.

[limechevron]

I think it's rare for it to lay dormant for a decade or so - unless as you say, external circumstances change leading to stress which could trigger PD manifestations. I feel like they may manifest more as quirks or normal "flaws" before then. It wouldn't look or feel like PD until the triggers awaken the monster. That's extremely confusing because every normal relationship, each person has quirks and flaws. So how can you predict or now if it's something else - PD?

My interactions with PD, usually looking back, there was always something off, red flags in retrospect - near the start. But the more covert types, those seem to be just more quirks or no one would really think of them as red flags until later in light of everything else.  Like I said above. And it was usually the mid 20s when their symptoms starting looking PD. Which I think is the normal range for when these things might start manifesting more seriously. Or life stressors/externals bringing out their PD full force, or a combination of the two.

I think it depends on the covert or overt nature of someone's PD, stress, etc. As well. I have gotten to a place where I can more easily spot the overt types - more so follow through without second guessing or feeling guilty about putting up immediate boundaries or distancing or removing myself from a person or situation. The covert types - I never know or struggle with whether I'm being paranoid or have serious trust issues (which I do). And then of course what's covert to me and my relationship - they may be overtly or immediately abusive/act differently to someone else or change from covert to overt depending on the social situation or relationship.

Romantic relationships that lead to a legal commitment (marriage) - It does seem that the day and week of the wedding the person will flip, I have seen and heard this a lot. The legal or finalization of sorts gives them the green light to put down the act and be free to be who the really are. That stuff is really scary. I hope people give themselves grace and understanding when this occurs - you couldn't possibly know.

I don't think people become experts or experienced with PDs and abuse until after it happens to them. I think our society is starting to change where we have more preemptive knowledge and awareness - but generally all this is learned after the damage is done or is in the process of happening.

[11JB68]

I think I'm right there with lime chevron,
For me looking back there were red flags that I didn't pick up on. Or ignored.
Then didn't realize it was likely a pd, thought I could fix it or needed to fix myself.
Now I 'know'. Wish I knew sooner.

[tommom]

NoVoice, not meaning to question your statement, but can you tell me what is behind your "No more than 2 to 3 years"? I did come from a family filled with PDs, but simply not recognizing the behaviors doesn't seem likely to me. I was, as a child, aware of my mother's unacceptable behaviors - although I didn't know exactly what they were. When they appeared in my H (in my 30s, and I had been married quite a while by then) they were quite outstanding and quite disturbing.

Heard that 11JB. But it is what it is. Sadly. 

[NoVoice357]

Your questions and feedback are welcome, Tommom. I am still learning.

can you tell me what is behind your "No more than 2 to 3 years"?

During this first stage, also called Golden Period, NPDs hide their true nature from their victims. They are kind, respectful, considerate. The victim is treated well. If NPDs showed their true colours quite overtly from the very beginning, victims would run.
This period lasts about 6 months - 2/3 years. It is not possible to last longer because of different reasons. The most important one is that the victim's narcissistic supply goes stale with time. This is from the NPD's perspective, not from ours. Another reason why NPDs will take a couple of years until they start devaluing their victims is that they want to make sure they have total control over their partner and that she/he will not leave so easily (marriage, pregnancy, isolation from friends and family, financial control and so on).

5 Reasons why the NPD devalues you
https://narcsite.com/2018/12/15/the-5-reasons-the-narcissist-devalues-you-3/

I did come from a family filled with PDs, but simply not recognizing the behaviors doesn't seem likely to me. I was, as a child, aware of my mother's unacceptable behaviors - although I didn't know exactly what they were. When they appeared in my H (in my 30s, and I had been married quite a while by then) they were quite outstanding and quite disturbing.

I come from a dysfunctional FOO too and I wrongly thought that I had seen it all. Unfortunately, there were manipulative, abusive behaviours I was not able to see clearly, especially the subtle ones. I put up with different kinds of abuse from my IL's, friends and acquaintances. I could not always recognize when they were putting me down, demeaning me, taking advantage of me and so on until I read about it in books, blogs and boards like this one.

[blunk]

There were definitely a lot of red flags at the beginning of my relationship with bpdxh, starting with the fact that I was 17 and he was 27...but of course it's easy to see all of that now looking back.

However, I specifically remember the anger and name calling ramping up after an external event. The first time was about 5 years in when we had money seized from our bank account because of unpaid rent when he was with his first wife, he claimed he moved out and asked the landlord to take him off of the lease. He threw and broke some items, claiming that he was angry because this bi%^h was still affecting his life and now mine too. I believed him then, but in hindsight I'm not sure any of it was true.

The next escalation was around 8 years when he had a heart attack. In this case a lot of the hatred was directed inward, him saying he was useless, I deserve someone better...of course with the connotation that I should run off with whoever it was that he assumed I was seeing at the time.

It started to become unbearable when his brother and mother passed away within a year of each other, around the 17 year mark. By then it was full blown rages, spewing filth and hatred that I never imagined a person could say to someone they claimed to love. This was around the time he started to make suicide threats and had to be hospitalized, unfortunately they only kept him overnight. This was also around the time that he finally told me that he had been diagnosed with BPD (then referred to as EDD) more than 20 years prior.

So yes, I think the signs were always there, but he was definitely worse after something particularly upsetting occurred. The problem was that after all of those years what upset him could be as benign as me taking longer that he thought I should at the grocery store.

[tommom]

blunk, sorry you have had to experience all of that. I also agree that stress seems to bring out the worst in people with, it seems, particularly BPD. My uPD mother  used to come in from work and tell us "Let me have (x number) of minutes" - usually 20 or 30 - and she would drink coffee, eat the same snack every afternoon and lie down on the sofa in the den. If we left her alone, she would get up in a little while in a reasonably manageable emotional state. If not....well, we tried to never bother her, she was highly unpleasant, shall we say. You know what I mean.

I do think stress - in both her and my H- and it sounds like in your ex - is such a contributing factor to dysregulation, especially in people with BPD or tendencies toward it. Why DBT works for them, I suspect.

And finances really seem to affect my H, too, particularly. If there is money stress, it sends him over the top. Other stresses bother him, but not like money problems.

[irkmandu]

I'm still not sure if my ex has a PD or schizophrenia or something else, but her openly abusive behavior didn't start until we had been married for 13 years (and friends for 7 years before that). She was always somewhat manipulative, and looking back I now see that the devaluation started about 4 years into the marriage, but the switch to verbal and physical abuse was sudden and jarring.

[11JB68]

Stress as a trigger yes!
In fact my sil once told me that updh can't handle any stress.
She was right!

[CoffeeCup2]

Looking back, I suppose early behaviours should have been massive red flags for me. However, uNPDx was also a master manipulator, so he cleverly made it look as though I was the one at fault, or he was the poor victim of circumstance.

He wanted to enter into a serious relationship very quickly. He moved fast. I did not want to move fast because I was in a new city with a new job and a new place of my very own and I wanted to enjoy my new life!  He basically said I was absurd and immature and did not understand adult relationships. He yelled at me so many times before we even moved in together (again, happened very quickly). Should have known. But, he scared me and manipulated me.

I think it's really easy to look back and say we should have known. Sure, I was being idealized, and I thought that this was the greatest man I've ever met who truly cared. But, it was all the other things he did in addition to the idealization where I should have made that realization.

[Whiteheron]

I honestly don't know. There were plenty of red flags. I even remember telling myself after stbx had treated me poorly "that right there is a red flag." But I wasn't confident in myself so I made excuses. Over time - I'd say a period of 3-4 years, red flags were still popping up - but they were new ones, and again, I made excuses (he tells me he loves me, so he didn't really mean it when...). After we married, I don't remember a big shift in his behavior. We were already living together and he was in complete control. But things did begin to snowball as life progressed - new jobs, moving, kids. He became unbearable.

I can say I noticed a huge change in his behaviors right towards the end of toddlerhood for the kids - when they were starting school. Before then, lots of bad behaviors and red flags I tolerated, but nothing like what was to come.

[NoVoice357]

Hi tommom, Whiteheron, Coffeecup, irkmandu, limechevron, blunk and 11JB68,

I would like to add that abusive and manipulative people test their potential targets' character and boundaries from the very beginning.
Depending on the type of abuser,  their manipulations may be too subtle to notice (Present Silent Treatments and other forms of passive-aggression). If they see that their targets accept them without complaining, they go to the next stage and so on. Coming from a dysfunctional FOO, I have a high tolerance for abuse too. Since I am aware I am not perfect, I do not like to judge people immediately without knowing their intentions first.

I made excuses (he tells me he loves me, so he didn't really mean it when...).

We pay too much attention to words, Whiteheron. When words and actions do not match, they are not trustworthy.

I do think stress - in both her and my H- and it sounds like in your ex - is such a contributing factor to dysregulation...
And finances really seem to affect my H, too, particularly. If there is money stress, it sends him over the top. Other stresses bother him, but not like money problems.

The article Any Excuse, written by an author with an NPD, explains why nons cannot (or doesn't want to) notice that we are being manipulated and controlled and tend to find excuses for abusive behaviour.
https://narcsite.com/2017/06/24/any-excuse-2/

One of HG Tudor's books is called Black Flag – 50 warning signs of abuse. He says that some manipulative techniques are so subtle that the victim does not notice. These flags not only apply to NPDs but also to any type of abuser.

Reading as much as I can about Passive-Aggressive Behaviour has helped me detect very subtle forms of abuse I was not aware of.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/what-mentally-strong-people-dont-do/201509/9-things-passive-aggressive-people-do

[Associate of Daniel]

I'd say somewhere between 4 and 12 months. Before we were married.

Stupid me.

AOD

[tommom]

Oh, AOD, not stupid! You aren't stupid, no, no, no! Young and naïve, maybe, but those kind of go hand-in-hand, right? I find most of us here are...hopeful. Maybe trained by our FOOs, but still, most of us here seem to be so...hopeful. And resilient too. Hoping to understand. Hoping to change, ourselves, our lives, our situations, things for our kids, for others here.  We're kind and loving people who don't understand (and I do NOT) how or why people can be so.....whatever you want to call it. Disordered, demanding, unkind (oh yeah, NoVoice) passive-aggressive...what a list we could draw up!

Since MLK day is coming up, have you ever read the letter King sent to his wife when he was arrested and put in prison in 1960? He told her he had faith that what was happening to him would make our state (I'm from Georgia, too) and our country a better place. He said he didn't know how, but he believed "our suffering is not in vain." How right he was! Look at how he changed not just our state, but the entire world, and changed the lives of millions...maybe billions, forever. Somehow, I believe, in some small way, that is true as well for us here. Has what has happened to us made us better, stronger, wiser? I suspect none of us will never be an MLK now, but does sharing our similar experiences help others? Are we helping each other here or does it even go beyond that? Are we helping break through the model of the dysfunctional families we came from? Maybe in some small way helping others understand that? Maybe we, all of us, are shining a little light on something terrible that has been long ignored. Sure, we are all here hoping to understand what happened to us, but most people wouldn't begin to understand what you have been through - what anyone here has. They only see it from the outside, so they don't know. Not now, at least. But you are helping, in your own way, change that.  Everyone here is helping. That's not stupid at all. You have taken something painful and difficult (maybe an understatement) and are - in a small (or not so small) way - helping make it into a force for good, as best we can, one painful step at a time, for ourselves, and for others here and beyond. When we, in the smallest way, talk about our experiences, we are changing things. When you "speak" here, you are helping others who may not understand what is happening to them, help them build a boundary or work out a problem or maybe even help someone else avoid it. You are reaching out a helping hand to others suffering. I wouldn't even begin to call that stupid. Anything but.

And whiteheron, I understand completely, not because I had children myself, but because my PDm also had difficulty once we - me and my sisters- began to develop autonomy. I think especially those with BPD can't handle the loss of that. That need to control. 

[clara]

The consensus seems to be that the red flags are there from the beginning, we just don't see (or refuse to see) them.  I don't think it's fair to reprimand ourselves over not seeing what is, in retrospect, pretty obvious, because I think most people can be easily fooled by a PD.  The difference is, we seem to stay fooled for a longer period of time.  And this is what the PD is looking for--someone who keeps tolerating the PD behavior.

For example, after I left my uNPDexh, he immediately jumped into another relationship and was apparently pressuring her to marry ASAP same as he did with me (we were still in touch at the time so naturally he told me all about this new relationship).  The difference between me and her was, she didn't fall for his act.  I don't know when they broke up but I suspect it was shortly after he asked her to marry him, since I saw her about 6 months later out with another guy.  It took me 7 years to do what took her just a few months. 

[11JB68]

No voice...that excuses link is great! And scary.
I didn't see my own updh as passive aggressive...but boy those excuses hit the nail on the head

[Blackbird11]

This thread is very eye opening. Thanks for the links I'm going to dive into those today.

I saw red flags early on but he is so well liked by literally everyone who comes into contact with him - I brushed it off. See, I'm an introvert. It takes me a very long time to become friends with people. I also used to (and sometimes still do) have social anxiety. So I am used to people loving him (extrovert, and he's actually funny when he's not using it as a jab or abuse) and not initially liking me. So I had A LOT of shame about my disposition and how I'm not a people person. So I dismissed the red flags and thought the problem was all me - not him.

Fast forward to getting engaged: I almost broke it off at one point. I couldn't put my finger on it. I just didn't feel right. He hoovered me into moving forward.

Fast forward to a year or so into marriage: crazy train has arrived. Verbal and emotional abuse starts. My confusion begins because after diving into therapy, I realize that maybe - just maybe, there is nothing "wrong" with me (and he was reinforcing this story that I was also telling myself...that I was the problem).

I left for a few days to clear my head. He had refused therapy at that point so I was going to leave. He decided therapy was ok after all. He actually did really well with it, but I was still ready to leave. Then I got pregnant. He stayed with therapy during that time, kept doing well. I think I've written on here that at that point, I thought he was "cured."

Kid comes, back to the verbal/emotional abuse. Highly stressful time seems to have triggered it. It's not as overt as before. A few months ago I gave the ultimatum: get back to therapy or I'm leaving. He's currently in therapy and doing Ok. I am not keen on waiting around for the next round and currently thinking about what I want to do.

TLDR: Verbal and emotional abuse began about a year into marriage.

[logistics]

6 months after the wedding spouses behavior was different. I wasn't aware what it was.  Full blown by 3 years after the wedding. I should have left after three years but still didn't have a name for it. I spent to much time trying to fix him and the marriage.

[11JB68]