Using contempt - strategy or trap?

[square]

I've been struggling somewhat with my ILs this year. I care too much what they think about me. The family culture uses extreme invalidation as a standard strategy, and unfortunately it works on me.

I need to become indifferent to it. I've not really figured out a path to that other than the possibility of leveraging contempt.

If I felt contempt for, say, MIL, what would I care what she thought of me? It would take time to develop contempt but probably I could do it if I worked at it.

However, contempt is not my nature, and perhaps it shouldn't be?

Feel free to ignore this part if you are not Christian - contempt also seems to be against the core teachings. It puts ourselves above others.

But I do wonder if it can be protective. I wouldn't be aggressively contemptuous, just as a defense, but the reality is that I couldn't just turn it on and off. If I go down this route, I will have to feel an amused contempt toward the toxic individuals at all times in order to let things roll right off me.

[JustKeepTrying]

What you feel and what you show are two different things.  You can feel contempt inside - even amused contempt - and just now show it outside.  Outside it's indifference and a shrug. 

But if evoking that emotion is where are having trouble take another look at the toolbox and consider grey rock or something along those lines.  Keep it light and fluffy.  Or no engagement at all. 

In the end their opinion doesn't matter. The only that matters is yours. 

What would you tell a friend who asked you about this? 

[SonofThunder]

Hi Square,

My opinion of extreme invalidation, which is a typical tactic of my uNPDfather and therefore flying-monkey mother, is that it is a form of gaslighting;  that denial of our own reality and own ability.  My opinion is that gaslighting is much different than simply the one-way insult throws of an asshole, but has a very real goal for the gaslighter. The gaslighted may feel invalidated and insulted as a result of the boomerang effect of a gaslighting throw, but to fully understand the circular nature of the gaslighting, helps me to not only become indifferent, but also boundary myself to avoid going forward. 

Regarding indifference:  I understand what JKT stated and will agree if utilizing contempt, then consider internal amused contempt.  If amused contempt is chosen, then the amusing portion to me would be my full understanding of the attempted boomerang of gaslighting that did not return to the gaslighter with fuel for their needs, but returned empty by my indifference, because I fully understand their motive.  But... a negative part about internal amused contempt is that by definition, contempt is a pattern of thinking toward a person(s) so therefore it remains present and alive in our brain vs throwing away the experience.  Present and alive contempt allows the gaslighting to take up valuable space in our mind's hard-drive, where emptying the trash through indifference does not.  Me personally, I do not desire to allocate my precious mental hard-drive space with the programs of manipulative users so i am practicing indifference and emptying my trash frequently by fully understanding the attempted throw of the gaslighter. 

I have stated this example on another thread, but will pose a question(s):  Have you ever been approached by a creative beggar who attempted to guilt you into giving and/or insulted you when you said "no"?   If so, I suggest that you consider if you were emotionally affected afterward, or did you just trash that experience in the beggar-indifference garbage can and move on?  If the latter, why didn't you mentally stir the beggar-encounter afterward, like you may do with the IL's?  What is the difference, since both types of gaslighters have a boomerang motive of getting supplied at your expense?

Also to answer your title question: I suggest that contempt can be a small wound caused by the boomerang that returns with a trace of blood, giving the gaslighting thrower a bit of supply to know the throw was accurate and may be taking up space in your mental hard drive.  But, indifference is a hard bounce-off that causes the boomerang to return with a noticeably dulled edge and the thrower is very aware the energy spent, was wasted.  So beware also the gaslighter can be frustrated that their boomerang was not only ineffective but returned empty and self-damaged by the bounce-off.  Therefore the gaslighter may double-down in creativity and begin to throw the boomerang harder next time, with a repaired and extremely sharp new edge.  So therefore its best I also learn how to dodge the throws altogether or remain much farther away/absent from the thrower from there forward. 

SoT 

[NarcKiddo]

Could the "observe, don't absorb" approach help you and be in line with your principles?

Rather than fostering contempt, imagine yourself as a scientist who is observing and recording (internally) instances of insulting or belittling behaviour by the subjects (the ILs). Internally watch out for all instances of such behaviour. Internally consider it a success, and validation of your theory, every time they attempt to invalidate you. Mentally tick it off on your imaginary chart on your imaginary clipboard. This approach can actually be fun sometimes, so you can get the amusement without the contempt.

[Stillirise]

 
I've used scientific approach, along with some mental imagery pretty successfully.  I picture the words washing past me, like water over stones. The stones remain steadfast, and the water flows away.  Then, I try to put myself in the position of observer, as if there's a two way mirror between my mind and the subject (pd).  I've felt both amusement and even pity, when observing the PD change tactics to try and illicit their desired response. Learning to see these behaviors as a reflection of their character, as opposed to a true reflection your own, is very challenging, for sure!

[Call Me Cordelia]

Oh, I don't agree with contempt being against Christian teachings! Do a search for verses about fools. Seriously. As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly. Doesn't get much more contemptuous than that. Or any of Our Lord's choice words for the brood of vipers and blind guides who were the religious leaders of His day.

If by their actions your in-laws have merited such a poor opinion of them, they will reap what they sow when you give their opinions and nasty words the consideration they deserve.

[square]

What you feel and what you show are two different things.  You can feel contempt inside - even amused contempt - and just now show it outside.  Outside it's indifference and a shrug. 

But if evoking that emotion is where are having trouble take another look at the toolbox and consider grey rock or something along those lines.  Keep it light and fluffy.  Or no engagement at all. 

In the end their opinion doesn't matter. The only that matters is yours. 

What would you tell a friend who asked you about this?

I have been using MC and just bits of GR and it's a clear success in changing the dynamic on its face. However, I still have trouble shaking that stupid self questioning where I wonder if I could have responded better or this or that, and still desire to be seen as valid and mature. I intellectually know it's them, their warped mirror, nobody else sees me the way they do, but I am still stuck. Hence I wondered if cultivating contempt would allow me to discard their warped opinions.

I truly don't know what I would advise a friend.

[square]

Hi Square,

My opinion of extreme invalidation, which is a typical tactic of my uNPDfather and therefore flying-monkey mother, is that it is a form of gaslighting;  that denial of our own reality and own ability. 

Yes, I like this insight. MIL uses it as a weapon to get people in line and to deflect who is acting badly. She can behave very poorly sometimes but seems to genuinely believe it is others who are being childish, selfish, creating drama, etc. It is effective on me as I question my own behavior and spend less thought (still a lot but less) on hers. And she is so convinced, it's hard to break through it.

And invalidation shuts everything down, your perspective is wrong, your memory is wrong, your values are wrong, there's nowhere to go. She will label you bad until you comply.

My opinion is that gaslighting is much different than simply the one-way insult throws of an asshole, but has a very real goal for the gaslighter. The gaslighted may feel invalidated and insulted as a result of the boomerang effect of a gaslighting throw, but to fully understand the circular nature of the gaslighting, helps me to not only become indifferent, but also boundary myself to avoid going forward. 

Regarding indifference:  I understand what JKT stated and will agree if utilizing contempt, then consider internal amused contempt.  If amused contempt is chosen, then the amusing portion to me would be my full understanding of the attempted boomerang of gaslighting that did not return to the gaslighter with fuel for their needs, but returned empty by my indifference, because I fully understand their motive.  But... a negative part about internal amused contempt is that by definition, contempt is a pattern of thinking toward a person(s) so therefore it remains present and alive in our brain vs throwing away the experience.  Present and alive contempt allows the gaslighting to take up valuable space in our mind's hard-drive, where emptying the trash through indifference does not.  Me personally, I do not desire to allocate my precious mental hard-drive space with the programs of manipulative users so i am practicing indifference and emptying my trash frequently by fully understanding the attempted throw of the gaslighter. 

I'm allocating WAYYY to much energy on this at present. What if amused contempt was a step in the process toward indifference, but not the final step? I know there was at least one other idea that I needed to take multiple steps on to get Out of the FOG and believe I could not realistically skip intermediate steps to get to the final conclusion. What if after experiencing contempt for a while I could graduate to pure indifference?

I have stated this example on another thread, but will pose a question(s):  Have you ever been approached by a creative beggar who attempted to guilt you into giving and/or insulted you when you said "no"?   If so, I suggest that you consider if you were emotionally affected afterward, or did you just trash that experience in the beggar-indifference garbage can and move on?  If the latter, why didn't you mentally stir the beggar-encounter afterward, like you may do with the IL's?  What is the difference, since both types of gaslighters have a boomerang motive of getting supplied at your expense?

What process do we go through to devalue a beggar and shrug off their attempts to survive? Is it not contempt? Do we not dehumanize them?

Also to answer your title question: I suggest that contempt can be a small wound caused by the boomerang that returns with a trace of blood, giving the gaslighting thrower a bit of supply to know the throw was accurate and may be taking up space in your mental hard drive.  But, indifference is a hard bounce-off that causes the boomerang to return with a noticeably dulled edge and the thrower is very aware the energy spent, was wasted.  So beware also the gaslighter can be frustrated that their boomerang was not only ineffective but returned empty and self-damaged by the bounce-off.  Therefore the gaslighter may double-down in creativity and begin to throw the boomerang harder next time, with a repaired and extremely sharp new edge.  So therefore its best I also learn how to dodge the throws altogether or remain much farther away/absent from the thrower from there forward. 

SoT

Interesting. In my ILs case, they will not be delighted (or probably even notice) that my contempt shows a hit. They will simply be appalled that I am not compliant. My goal is not to elicit this or that response from them, just to detach *somehow*. I am willing to risk an imperfect detachment, possibly as a step in an ongoing process - just not if it's the wrong direction to go in. If it gets me halfway there, great. If it leads to the dark side, I choose to stay where I am even though I suffer.

[square]

Could the "observe, don't absorb" approach help you and be in line with your principles?

Rather than fostering contempt, imagine yourself as a scientist who is observing and recording (internally) instances of insulting or belittling behaviour by the subjects (the ILs). Internally watch out for all instances of such behaviour. Internally consider it a success, and validation of your theory, every time they attempt to invalidate you. Mentally tick it off on your imaginary chart on your imaginary clipboard. This approach can actually be fun sometimes, so you can get the amusement without the contempt.

I like this but am having trouble in this particular relationship using this. I readily use it with more distant relatives, workplace conflict, etc. I don't know why I can't extract myself from caring what MIL thinks.

[square]

Oh, I don't agree with contempt being against Christian teachings! Do a search for verses about fools. Seriously. As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly. Doesn't get much more contemptuous than that. Or any of Our Lord's choice words for the brood of vipers and blind guides who were the religious leaders of His day.

If by their actions your in-laws have merited such a poor opinion of them, they will reap what they sow when you give their opinions and nasty words the consideration they deserve.

Hmm. Yeah, Jesus got pretty crabby with certain types of people.

It is not, imho, wrong of me to have a poor opinion of the behavior of others. I don't know if contempt is going too far or if there is some other emotional position that is more appropriate.

I'm considering giving myself permission to have a low opinion of the behavior of my ILs. Interesting I phrase it like that, isn't it? Seems this is closer to where the blockage is. I can't change my outlook on a dime but I think I will explore allowing myself to think this. Allowing myself to think more than just "I have a perspective and they have an equally valid perspective," to "I'm okay and they cray."

[square]

I'm still working this through my INTP head.

I have moderate-to-severe hearing loss. As a kid, I would be the kid who didn't know what was going on. Classmates would suddenly leave the classroom while I was still reading the textbook, because I didn't hear the teacher announcing an assembly. At camp I never knew where we were doing the next activity.

I learned to trust the knowledge of others and distrust my own awareness. I never considered myself stupid, I have all the academic accolades, but when it comes to information you can't find in a book or in deep thought, I assume I have it all wrong and everybody else is in the know.

I think I need to internalize that, while I do miss a lot of sensory input, my logical analysis is going to measure up to anybody else's in a given room. I don't have all the answers but my answers are worthy.

It's important to my values to constantly take in new input, to have the humility to reevaluate my conclusions. But I can do it on my own terms, on stronger terms.

MIL thinks I'm spoiled, childish, and selfish.

My mother thinks I'm mature and helpful.
DD thinks I'm smart and funny.
My friends back when I had them thought I was smart and nice.

Fuck MIL. She's seeing a mirror and trying to convince me her reflection is me.

[SonofThunder]

"She's seeing a mirror and trying to convince me her reflection is me."

Your logical analysis that mil is classic 'projecting' is worthy.

I dont 'dehumanize' a beggar.  I've educated myself using a very knowledgable director of a faith-based homeless shelter in my city who taught me that the motives of those who genuinely desire to end their homeless plight are staying-in, and working hard at the shelter in its operations, to care for others like them, and also better themselves with resources the shelter offers for those who desire to help themselves.  Those that dont want to help themselves are not allowed to remain in the resourceful shelter, and are therefore back out begging on the street for their next hit of whatever substance they desire to satisfy their cravings.

The director taught me that by giving money to a beggar, i am actually prolonging the hardship and short-term supply they crave.  Therefore i understand 'motive'.  Understanding motive is, imo critical to developing the very useful, healthy tool of indifference. 

PD's who project are simply emotional 'predators'. The motive of predation is the (+) acquisition at the (-) expense of another.  Its beyond selfish, because in order for them to keep, they must continually gain from another's loss.  Its not hoarding what they have available, its draining others to fill the unhealthy-need fuel tank.  Same with a beggar. 

Therefore, imo your mil is a predator by her projection, because she needs to incorrectly insult you for her to feel better about herself.  She's not worthy of the energy-effort of your silent contempt imo.  But her known predator motives are surely worth your indifference. I know I cant alter a PD's motives, so in full understanding, i can just boundary-protect my emotional energy by indifference.  I don't dehumanize PD's, i just dont have the time and energy for their bullshit.

Imo, your mil can beg on the corner of projection street all she wants, but you know exactly what fuels her constantly empty fuel tank of 'self'.  Therefore shes like the beggar who stands on the corner, whom i can look straight in the eye and drive on without guilt.  Motive is gold. 

SoT

[square]

" I don't dehumanize PD's, i just dont have the time and energy for their bullshit. "

Oof. I feel that.

I feel like I'm going in the right direction, giving myself permission to stop giving MIL the benefit of the doubt that she in no way gives me. I think I have to feel scorn before I can settle into indifference.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think that's right, about feeling scorn before you can settle into indifference. Eventually the anger, contempt, and adjacent emotions are going to burn themselves out. It really is a stage of grief.

[square]

CMC
HA that's it. A stage of grief. Out of denial, out of bargaining, out of depression, into anger/scorn before acceptance/indifference.

BW
Don't have a T. I definitely desire MIL's basic approval. It's not related to my own mom or dad, no problems there. I am kind of assuming my desire for basic approval is normal, it certainly could be improved but I don't think it's based on pathology.

I was thinking that the blocker was rather that I had difficulty discarding MIL's perceptions. As I described, I learned to trust other people's perceptions if they conflicted with mine because I was the kid who had no idea what was going on. If I'm solving a linear equation, unless you're Stephen Hawking I don't care if you say I'm doing it wrong if I know it's right. But when people say things happened differently or my behavior was inappropriate, I don't necessarily discard my perceptions but I do put them in the PERMANENT-INCONCLUSIVE file.

Also, it's just a value I have, maybe as an INTP, to avoid concrete conclusions about subjective or not fully understood subjects. Whereas many people can take very hard stances and state their opinions as obvious facts, I find that rather limited, shall we say. But of course we need hard foundations to build on, and some things we just have to have a backbone on whether we can prove it or not.

My scorn can relabel MIL's perceptions as NOT USEFUL/DISCARD. My child's mind didn't really sort out whose perceptions were more or less valuable, just saw that in general, *everybody else* seemed to have info I didn't. But my judgement is fine, and if we don't disagree on the sensory input then I think I'm mature enough by now to make my own calls lol.

[SonofThunder]

" Also, it's just a value I have, maybe as an INTP, to avoid concrete conclusions about subjective or not fully understood subjects. Whereas many people can take very hard stances and state their opinions as obvious facts, I find that rather limited, shall we say. But of course we need hard foundations to build on, and some things we just have to have a backbone on whether we can prove it or not.

My scorn can relabel MIL's perceptions as NOT USEFUL/DISCARD. My child's mind didn't really sort out whose perceptions were more or less valuable, just saw that in general, *everybody else* seemed to have info I didn't. But my judgement is fine, and if we don't disagree on the sensory input then I think I'm mature enough by now to make my own calls lol."


Square, I research the crap out of it all also as an INTJ, and then I research it again 😂.  I grind it SO fine in my mind, that i realize just how much of my mental energy I have spent on people that dont deserve my time/energy.  That realization helps me develop indifference toward beggars and also toward PD's. 

But...I first have to fully research to understand that deep, internal motive-need that keeps these people in their cycles and then my indifference comes much easier.  I will boundary myself with my knowledge-driven indifference once my detailed, researching mind has finally settled on an acceptable conclusion of what is truth. 

SoT