Thinking of ultimatum (long)

[NumbLotus]

I've been here for a few months and have been reading a lot and absorbing.

One thing that I think is clearer to me is that I think that for my H, PD traits are a minor part of a much bigger picture. I think he has severe PTSD with other complications (including stable and beneign psychosis).

So while I relate to many soecific PD traits described here, there has always been a gap for me between what I am reading here and what I see in H. There is no doubt the PD stuff is problematic and distressing for me, but the bigger thing is that I am seeing decline in his insight (affects to frontal lobes?), and decline in his everyday functioning to nearly non-functional.

He is not at all the same man I married. He is very ill.

This does bring up some in-sickness-and-in-health issues for me, but let me set that aside for now.

He needs serious help, and he is not getting it. Honestly, I am not all that hopeful that we would get useful help even if H was willing to try. He and I have both had our faith in medicine in general worn down over the years.

He was hospitalized for an acute issue a couple of years ago - a severe problem that I was certainly seeing but was unable to figure out how to get help for. Also it sounds stupid but it hadn't yet solidified in my mind that what was happening was mental health related.

I was so relieved that we could finally get help. They noted he had a strong support system and released him with instructions for follow up care. A program. He lied to their faces and agreed, got discharged. I had no idea he was lying - he's not a big liar.

So we had these big long talks afterward, I tried hard to push him to do it, or at keast do X, or at keast do Y. He resisted and resisted and finally agreed to a pathetic bare minimum of reading and doing some self therapy. M

Ha.

I mean, what did I expect? He maybe even meant it. He can't even take the trash out anymore, is he really going to apply motivation to self therapy?

I don't know if I'm describing it well enough. HE CAN'T. He's smart. There's something completely broken in him. He cannot even get out of bed. He is dissociating to the point I'm not sure he'd notice the house on fire.  Maybe he lied, maybe he didn't, but all the possible help slipped right through my fingers.

I told him about PTSD. I thought this might help if there was a name to what was going on. He dismissed the idea at first as a PD defense mechanism - he heard "you're broken" and couldn't consider it. I brought it up several more times with 100% empathy, saying it's literally by definition not his fault, something that was done to him, etc. Managed to show him one video. One.

Now if the right personality is inahbiting him at the moment, he is open to the idea, but has ZERO CURIOSITY about it. I cannot stress enough hiw bizarre this is for him. He used to research the hell out of everything. He was a psych major. He was always intereted in the world and how it ticked. Now he has no interests at all. Nothing. I don't think PTSD has crossed his mind once since the last time I mentioned it.

Apparently his father is dying. He has been NC for 20 years. When he got the news he talked a bit about how he has to decide whether to go or not. That was over a week ago. I don't think it has crossed his mind since. What? This isn't him at all. This would be like if YOU just plumb forgot about it.

Sorry so long. It's like I have an elephant inside of me and I just have to hold it in.

So I'm thinking an ultimatum. How would you phrase it? As in, "get help." Of course, it will only be an ultimatum in my mind because I won't tell him the "or else" part.

What exactly will I demand of him? Get help, yes, but exactly what help? What if the first professional we try is useless? How do I address all his objections, which will be insurmountable because he literally can't see anything wrong, almost like he has advanced deemntia?

It will be useless. It will fail. Most likely he won't do anything, possibly he will try something but it will be far, far short of what he needs. And that'll be the end and probably used against me as well.

But that in-sickness-and-in-health thing. I gotta at least give it a shot. He's deowning and even if I've decided I'm not going down with him, I'm at least going to try to push a tree branch over before I go.

FYI, whatever I do, I'm not likely to do for a few months. I need a few ducks in a row first. Ughhhh I don't even know if I can. Ughhhhh.

[11JB68]

I was thinking about ultimatums myself today.
As much as I've thought about it, more when I was deep in the FOG, I think that an ultimatum may not be fair to the other person.
I feel like what I've read here is more about setting boundaries. Boundaries for us. Deciding what we won't tolerate and what we will do. Not expecting the other to do or not do something.
It's very difficult though.
Your situation sounds sad and frustrating. I'm sorry you're experiencing this. I can hear the empathy in what you're saying also.

[Poison Ivy]

Oh, NumbLotus, this situation must be so sad and stressful for you.  I'm just brainstorming right now.  Could you call your local adult protective services agency and ask for a home visit?  Does your husband have a primary care provider who might make or order a home visit? Do you or your husband have a religious counselor (e.g., a priest or a minister) who could come chat with you, your husband, or both of you?

[NumbLotus]

11, I think you're right about ultimatums. And maybe I do mean boundaries because the "or else" part is only for me. In other words, I'm thinking of trying hard to do something, and if it fails, then *I* will enforce my boundaries... and leave. He could never handle an ultimatum. It would be a complete and total non starter. It would break him and he would nkt be able to be constructive in any way.

Poison Ivy, he does have a priest. I do not know the priest and cannit visit him myself but I will turn it over in my mind.

One very difficult thing is - I don't know how to describe it. The situation is dire. And at the same time, invisible. He even has a part time job. But it's *all* he can do and it's about killing him to do this craply job far below his skill set.

I don't know how to decribe without writing a Stephen King novel WHAT IS WEONG. And if I do not do an excellent job at it, it will backfire.

And the thing that is most alarming for most people is the hallucinations, but they are FINE He has the absolute nicest and least disruptive hallucinations you could ask for. I'd be married to him happily forever with them if that's all it was. And they are a secret, of course.

How to describe the non functionality? I can't. It triggers the hell out of him. It will be war. He sees it as I'm just a greedy bitch trying to get the most out of him. Since he can say he works and he did a day's worth of a house project last year, I'm just a bitch trying to squeeze the maximum out of my slave. He cannot see how day after day, week after week, month after month, nothing happens. I tried to point out he was letting the trash pile up for a month before taking it, he vehemently disagreed and said ge did it weekly and I only eventually (after 2 years of this and we git VERMIN) git trash pickup (which he was angry about) because I was a bitch unsatisfied with how he was doing it. Which, yeah. Because it wasn't getting done.

I'm screwed. His defenses will not allow this to happen. He doesn't see because to see means death.

Even if it actually takes his life completely away to not see it.

[NumbLotus]

When I wrote the OP I was thinking the PD stuff was nearly irrelevant.

But now I'm thinking they are the nail in the coffin. A lerson with PTSD *could* get help.

But his triggers include being broken.

So they are in the way. The fracture to his self prevents any help. And he can go as irrational as needed to protect himself.

Checkmate.

[PeanutButter]

I was thinking about ultimatums myself today.
As much as I've thought about it, more when I was deep in the FOG, I think that an ultimatum may not be fair to the other person.
I feel like what I've read here is more about setting boundaries. Boundaries for us. Deciding what we won't tolerate and what we will do. Not expecting the other to do or not do something.
It's very difficult though.
Your situation sounds sad and frustrating. I'm sorry you're experiencing this. I can hear the empathy in what you're saying also.

IME and IMO You can only control you. I know you know that already. No matter how sick he is he still has the right to contol himself. He is an adult who gets decide not to get treatment he has that right. I know it may seem like life and death, it may be, but that doesnt change the fact that he gets to decide for himself even if you KNOW he would be better to do differently. Its hard to disconnect and/or unemesh.

[NumbLotus]

Does it mean I can't ask?

[notrightinthehead]

I think ultimatums are dangerous because you have to go through with them. If you were to say 'I need you to take the trash out by thursday or else I stay away until it's taken out' you would actually have to move out. Otherwise you loose credibility. So ultimatums should be thought about very carefully. And you should really only say something that you are truly willing to do. And then you should do it. Even if you don't want to.

NumbLotus, you seem to be suffering greatly and I wonder if you have taken on your h's reality to the extent that it  confuses you.  Do you have a space and a time where you can relax and listen to your own thoughts only? Can you get some emotional and mental distance from him so that you can evaluate what makes sense for you and what clashes with your reality?

I get the 'in sickness and in health' part.  Maybe you could ask yourself : What would I do if my h was an alcoholic and his drinking was creating all sorts of problems, him not being able to work, not helping around the house, being unpleasant when his alcohol level is running low? What if he refused to stop drinking and refused to get help.? You might worry if you leave him, he will either starve or drink himself to death. What would be the right thing for you to do?

[NumbLotus]

I think ultimatums are dangerous because you have to go through with them. If you were to say 'I need you to take the trash out by thursday or else I stay away until it's taken out' you would actually have to move out. Otherwise you loose credibility. So ultimatums should be thought about very carefully. And you should really only say something that you are truly willing to do. And then you should do it. Even if you don't want to.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself clearly. H can't take an ultimatum at all. It's an ultimatum in my own head only. I ask him to get help (looking for phrasing and parameters) but I am not saying "or else." That part is for me alone, in my own head.

I am thinking that this is it, I get some ducks in a row and I TRY with him. Like an intervention. "H, you are suffering, you need help." And if he says no, which is most likely, then it's time for me to leave. He'll never know the two were connected.

If people think I should just keave without even asking, can you explain more why I shouldn't even ask? Surely it will be better to try than not?

I know he can make his own choices but would you just assume what his choice was without even asking, for fear that asking would not respect his boundaries? How can we negotiate anything with each ofher if we can't even ask?

NumbLotus, you seem to be suffering greatly and I wonder if you have taken on your h's reality to the extent that it  confuses you. 

Absolutely. I switch back and forth between "this is so abnormal and this is intolerable" to "this is mostly fine." I don't know which way is up. And I don't know if I can explain what's wrong because his Voice keeps popping up in my head telling me I'm just waaaaaay overreacting and need to get a grip, so he isn't mowing the lawn like I like, there is something wrong with ME if I'm at this point and I need to get off his back.

I don't know how to explain because obviously it's not the lawn, it's the whole picture, but i can't paint the picture without each tiny part, and each part is nothing. I have nothing that someone would say, oh yeah, that's messed up - only the whole picture.

Do you have a space and a time where you can relax and listen to your own thoughts only? Can you get some emotional and mental distance from him so that you can evaluate what makes sense for you and what clashes with your reality?

Well yes and no. I have all day to think. All day to try to shut out the snoring. I've thought and thought but I can't take it out of my head at all. I can't look at it with any perspective. I can't make any leaps of understanding because it has to stay in my head.

I do not have any ody to talk to. Well, there's my mom but she kind of shuts down because she doesn't know what to say or how to help, and there's too much.

I get the 'in sickness and in health' part.  Maybe you could ask yourself : What would I do if my h was an alcoholic and his drinking was creating all sorts of problems, him not being able to work, not helping around the house, being unpleasant when his alcohol level is running low? What if he refused to stop drinking and refused to get help.? You might worry if you leave him, he will either starve or drink himself to death. What would be the right thing for you to do?

He is an alcoholic but I don't know how much of a problem it is. In your scenario, would I be allowed to ask him to stop drinking? To get help? Or do I just assume the answer is no and make my decision accordingly?

[PeanutButter]

I agree with notrightinthehead. I also was thinking of the similarities to addiction/codependency type scenario.

Does it mean I can't ask?

Of course you can ask for what you want and / or need from your husband.

[NumbLotus]

If I can ask, how do I phrase it and what do I ask for?

[Penny Lane]

It sounds like you are saying "If he doesn't get help by X date, I will leave."

That is very reasonable! I think it's good to set that kind of boundary to yourself. You describe living in a war zone with someone who is awful to you.

So then the questions are, what is X date, and what do I do in the meantime?

I think you should be very clear in your head about what you want him to do. Go to a psychiatrist, try a specific course of treatment for PTSD, change certain behaviors?

Edited to add: Think of specific, concrete changes he can make. Your line INTERNALLY can be "if things are totally resolved in (whatever amount of time) I can't stick around." But it will be helpful for him if you ask for concrete things (make an appointment with a doctor, for example) that he 100% can do.

And the conversation doesn't have to be laying out the ultimatum to lay out serious boundaries. You can say things like "Our marriage is in serious trouble. I need you to do these things in the next month. Can you give me a plan for getting them done?"

He probably won't. But here's the thing: There is no magical set of words that will force him to do it. All you can do is try. Think of this not as the interaction that all your hopes are riding on. Think of it more as, he has been slowly killing your marriage and this is your attempt to administer a defibrillator. If it works, that's amazing. If it doesn't, well, there was nothing you were going to do to save it.

Honestly, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to do things right. But HE should also be putting at least that much effort into saving the relationship. It sounds like you don't think he will - and that says something, right?

[PeanutButter]

Yes thats good to get a script of sorts together because it is a very emotionally charged issue and it will be vital ime for you to stay calm on the outside even if you feel getting upset. So i guess lets go thru what the priorities for you are can you list those. IE get a doctor, referral,or meds or whatever. Im thinking more to try and help you word it once we can figure out specifics

[NumbLotus]

I keep writing and writing and writing

It's too much. A tsunami.

I wrote all this crap and deleted it when I realized yet another problem. Summary is that he is so fractured that even if we have a "perfect" conversation and he sincerely agrees to get help, he will not be the same person later. He won't remember it, change his mind, whatever.

[PeanutButter]

Im so sorry NumbLotus.
I know the painful longing of not wanting to give up on the commitment, the hope, and the dream of a happy life and of staying together for the long haul.
Maybe you can go ahead even if its just so you know you tried one last time. If so
NumbLotus: "DH I love you and you know how worried I am that you are sick. I think that you cant see how sick you are. I wont list the dozens of little things that it effects every day in our lives" (since that will only destract him as it does ie when he says you are crazy to care that he wont take the trash out) "but I want you to know that why I really care is because it has changed who you are and how you treat me. Our marriage needs both of us to want to be here if it is going to thrive". (no threat to leave is being stated so only you know how the boundary will be enforced)
"Please will you let me make appointment with a medical doctor for you. I want my husband to be here to grow old with me."
IMO a medical condition should be ruled out (like diabetes etc.) which could cause this. Then the medical can refer him on if he needs.

[Penny Lane]

Summary is that he is so fractured that even if we have a "perfect" conversation and he sincerely agrees to get help, he will not be the same person later. He won't remember it, change his mind, whatever.

I think that's the point I was trying to make. Things are already broken beyond repair. You desperately want to find a way for YOU to fix it. But you can't fix it, not with his buy in. So what you're talking about here is one more Hail Mary pass, while privately understanding that this is it. This is your chance to either confirm that he's not going to change or be pleasantly surprised.

I can tell you that if it fails, it's not because you didn't find the right words or make the right request. If it fails, it's because he isn't willing to do the things that you need him to do in order to stay in the relationship.

[NumbLotus]

Bingo, it's a Hail Mary pass.

Now I have to picture leaving in my head, and my entire mind short circuits when I try.

[Penny Lane]

Now I have to picture leaving in my head, and my entire mind short circuits when I try.

Is it possible that this is the heart of it? That ultimatums and things he could change and all that, they're a way to distract yourself from the thought of having to leave? Or almost like an escape fantasy, "maybe I won't have to?"

You don't have to, by the way, unless YOU decide you have to.

But since it kind of sounds like you have decided that or are in the process of deciding:

Can you find something to focus your mind on? The logistics are HARD. What if you think about, what would it feel like to have a home without him in it? What would you want that home to look like? A cozy apartment where you don't have to do any maintenance? A house that you've decorated yourself without his input? Would it feel peaceful? What things could you do there that you can't do now? Focus on a book, a bath, cooking dinner without being berated? Things could be clean without house-shaking arguments?

If you can hold onto that picture in your mind maybe the logistics will follow. And when you're ready to start thinking logistics, here's a checklist of things to think through - that might get you started.

[NumbLotus]

It's not a distraction but the opposite. I'm trying to face up the keaving. Step one is the Hail Mary.

I don't have any illusions that it's anything but a Hail Mary. It's step one in keaving because I do think I have to take a shit at it. But I can't even picture it working.

I can picture a fantasy wirld with him just gone. I picture a clean house. DD's friends can come over anytime, don't have to scramble to "clean" (and fail). Don't have to feel embarrased about the snoring coming from the bedroom at 2pm. Or about the squalor of that room if he's gone and the door is ajar.

I picture DD and I soending more time together, coming out of our own rooms. Tackling projects and exploring interests without fear of them being criticized. I got that part down pat.

It's the rest I can't get beyond. The usual finacial questions are complicated by my disability - I could survive for now but in 3 years my disability layment will go way down and I will be living on something like $17k/year and I don't know how. (This is a oroblem anyway, because H is not realistically a solution  - he almost can't work at all, he certainly can't take up the slack - yet I still can't picture this).

I can't get him to leave, so I will have to abandon the home my DD wants to keep forever. DD will want to stay here in her home most if the time so that could impact our relationship. I want the house but I can't have it. And surely H will lose it, I don't kniw hiw long he'll survive on a part time job.

That's just a taste of it, why I keep short circuiting. I can't get my mind around it.

Thanks for the checklist, going to read it now.

[Penny Lane]

One more thing, and I'm just throwing stuff to the wall to see what sticks in terms of being helpful to you:

I know when I'm stressed I over-research and probably overthink my options. What if you did a deep dive into research of your options? Like, look into every possible benefit or subsidy or whatever regarding disability. Any assistance program that you could possibly qualify for. I'm sure you know a lot of this but look at it with a new eye, with the eye that your husband won't be around. You might see things you didn't see before. Look into any possible job trainings or sources of income. You may have along the line rejected or not considered something because you knew it wouldn't work with your husband. Once you're really clear on what choices you have available to you, you might start being able to create some sort of plan or at least an outline of options.