Friendship, shame, people pleasing, and wanting to bond with BPDm?

[Dinah-sore]

Hi guys, I know it is a holiday weekend, and I know that many of you are going to be around difficult family members the next few days. This post is not an emergency or anything. I am just really struggling lately, and I don't know if it is normal or not. I think I am going to call and get in with a therapist in a few months when I have paid off some more bills and I have some extra money. But until then, I figured I would just share this here.

As some of you know, my closest long term friend passed away this year. I am grieving. I am lonely. I have shared in the Chosen Relationships group that I am also in a social environment that is very religious, and this group can be very judgy and critical. So it is hard for me to have other close friends there, because it all feels like I am re-experiencing the dynamic with my BPDm. Where I am constantly feeling the need to defend my choices or explain myself. It feels like I need to just conform, or perform, or else I will be shamed. I never noticed that this was happening, because I was so used to it with BPDm all my life, and I used to conform and perform for everybody all the time. I used to be really good at this.

Also, since my friend passed, my inner critic has become a giant monster in my head. Is that normal? Will that get better? It is hard for me to be around people because I am feeling such a huge need to people please for my own safety. Whenever I am with people I wonder, "Are they judging my social media posts?" or "Do they think I am not a good enough Christian?" or "Do they think I look gross" or "Do they think I am annoying?" --the list goes on. Even when someone is nice to me, I hear a voice in my head like my mom's saying, "They are just being nice because they are polite, but they don't really like you." It is worse since my friend passed. It feels like a residual from my childhood programming that taught me to people please. But it is bad lately.

And in my loneliness, I feel like I need my mom. She has been on "good behavior" lately, which just means she hasn't raged at me in a few months. and I am so desperate for connection and while I have a couple of nice friends, they are more in the "acquaintance" category. I don't have a "best friend" anymore. And my mom, before I realized that she was abusive, seemed to be a "best friend" to me. As long as she controlled me, and I fawned on her, and I walked on eggshells not to upset her--she was like a best friend. I used to tell her everything, and then she would tell me exactly what choices to make in every area of my life. But right now, that feels like it would be easy to go back to. Or like it would still fill a need.

I am so afraid of falling back into that, because I am so lonely. But can the grief that I am going through mess me up emotionally. Can it trigger C-PTSD stuff? I feel like I am in such a C-PTSD flare up. I feel toxic shame, I feel super reactive, I have a loud mean inner critic, small and unable to make good choices, doubting myself, poor self esteem, I feel the need to fawn, people please, and I am super sensitive to judgment. I know that my mom's BPD makes her afraid of abandonment, but I think this is different, because I am not afraid of abandonment as much as not being "good enough" for love.

Even last night, a woman from church was judging my daughter, because my daughter has a boyfriend. And the woman said that they were too "touchy feely" and the family approached my husband (who works at the school associated with the church), and told him that they feel uncomfortable with how my daughter is with her boyfriend. For reference, my daughter does link her arm with him and rest her head on his shoulder. And they have "pecked" before, but not in front of people. They have never french kissed. And, I am fine with that (but I don't want them making out). But I understand that some people might find that inappropriate. My quandary too is, who cares what they think. I feel like they were less concerned for her well being, and more trying to get her in trouble. That bothers me. Because it wasn't concern for her wellbeing or safety. It was basically just judgment, and shame. My daughter feels shame. She is also angry, at the family because their daughter has actually gone farther with boys at the church (literally making out with several boys from the church) and my daughter has never even "made out" with her boyfriend. The other girl was gossiping about my daughter last night at church in front of my other children too, basically acting like my daughter is a slut. And the thing is, I don't even think this other girl should be slut shamed for making out. So it isn't like I wish to throw her under the bus either. This whole culture at my church feels so unhealthy to me. It feels like there are parents out there that are so dysfunctional (but they don't see it) that they are just looking for some kid to scapegoat to feel better about their own parenting. Is it okay that I am upset with a family who is judging my daughter? My first reaction was to unfriend the mother on social media. I know that is childish, but I don't want to give her access to information and picture I post of my kids, if she is intent on shaming them. I haven't liked this mom for a while anyways, because she gossips and that bothers me, but she also gives my daughter mean looks and I have seen it with my own eyes. I want to clarify, if my daughter was in danger or doing something reckless, I would totally want someone to warn us. But I just don't like people being nitpicky about things that are really not that big of a deal, just different family choices. And what if my daughter did do something reckless? Is she not worthy of love then? Where is the mercy, grace, and love? I don't know, it just feels cultic. Like controlling people through a fear of being ostracized if you don't do what people think is good enough.

I just feel so much like I need a few friends who are healthy. My husband just wants me to make closer friendships with the people I already know, people like this family. But is it wrong that I don't want to be closer friends with people who are judgmental? I feel that especially right now, I am so sensitive to toxic shame and the inner critic, that I don't need more critics in my life.

So why do I feel drawn to bond with BPDm?

I am so confused. I know I need to work this out in therapy. But I think I also need to find a good friend in real life too.

I know I haven't been on this forum regularly, but honestly you guys are the closest things to a friend I have right now. You are the only people that I can be fully honest with. Thank you for that. I know this is anonymous and all, but I can tell you the truth and you encourage me and give me your perspective, and don't shame me. So thank you.

[Sidney37]

Oh Dinah. I am so very sorry about your friend.   I wish I had great answers, but I hope someone else here does.  I have some thoughts and maybe having someone who can relate will help you to think through it all.  I know sometimes having someone say that they understand is a help.

I can say that I can emphasize and relate.  I could have written much of that but instead of judgey, critical Christians, I have moved to a community of judgey,  critical, social climbing, social media savvy, fashion conscious people due to my DHs job.  They also ostracize others for not being just like them, while going on and on about how accepting they are of people who are different. It does feel like having a social community of PD people.  That's not who I am and it's what I've been trying to rid myself of for years.  It's not what I am used to. I am so sorry you are going through this.  It's lonely and people need social interaction and companionship.  Everyone does.  Research shows that social support (in person) helps people's health, well being, immune system and all sorts of important things. 

While it is different, I feel many of same emotions and ask myself the same questions.   I've been suffering without a close friend who I can see in person for quite a few years living here.   I have some old high school friends who I text, but they live very far away and 2 very casual acquaintances here who I know gossip about me.  I can tell them nothing and they still gossip based on things they have learned from my children.  I ask myself the same questions.  Do I look funny?  Do I act funny?  Do I wear the wrong clothes (YES)?  Do I come across as too mean?  Too needy?  Too standoffish?  Are my kids behaving in a way others don't like?  They ostracize people for next to nothing and judge everyone.   It's also cultish and so very isolating.  Like you said, it's controlling through ostracism and not being good enough.  Instead of not being Christian enough, it's not being fashionable, skinny, and social media savvy enough. 

Here's my first bit of advice.  I truly believe that having been raised by a PDm does affect the way we relate to these critical judgmental people whether it's not being Christian and perfect enough in that way or not being perfect enough in how we look and act in a social media savvy community.  My PD controlled me by telling me all of the time that I wasn't good enough.  I had to be her friend because no one else accepted me because I wasn't the smartest, prettiest, most talented, etc.  And of course she was just trying to "protect me" from being "hurt" by them.  She convinced me that shouldn't trust anyone but her.  I couldn't make a single decision for myself or it was wrong. 

Here's my other advice.  The only friend I had here moved several years ago and then I had a serious health scare.  My PTSD came raging back.  I was a mess and utterly  lonely. I was scared and needed people desperately.   In swooped my uPDm, who seemed like she was better.  She was also on new meds and her "good behavior".  I had no close friend to talk to... not one, and she was there.  Of course she was.   She loved the attention she was getting because I was off my game.  But she was an actual human person to talk to on the phone when I was going days or weeks at a time without talking to anyone but my children and my husband who works crazy hours and I frequently only see on weekends.  I fell quickly back into the FOG and now I am digging myself back out.  I made a HUGE mistake by letting her back in because I was lonely.  She acted like a best friend, asked me questions (interrogated me), got information from me (deeply personal, private information) and now in recent months has used it against me. She has used it to criticize me, undermine my parenting, and gossip to her church friends about me using deeply private and personal information that I never should have shared.  I was lonely.  I am still lonely, but sharing with her was a mistake and I am paying a high price for it now.  You feel drawn to your PD because you are lonely.  Of course you are.  You've experienced the loss of someone very close to you. 

Like your husband, mine thinks that I should just be friends with the judgmental, gossipy women that I casually know here.  He thinks that at least I will see others and have people to talk to, but I hate that they are gossiping about things I do and say.  I'm not sure they would even accept me if I tried to get closer to them.  I don't fit their mold of what is acceptable.   Some have even posted private things about me on social media attempting to "help" me with my health issue.  Isn't that just what my PDm is doing?   Is it better to be lonely or spend time with critical, judgmental people?  I think it's better to be lonely, but lonely is awful.  Getting back into the FOG is awful.  I've tried every way that I have read about online to meet people who are kind and not judgmental, but I've had no luck.  So I'm back to digging Out of the FOG and texting my HS friends for human companionship.  It might sound sexist, but I think husbands just don't get the need for personal relationships that women need. 

So, I'm not sure if any of that helped at all, but I understand.  I truly understand and I'm so sorry for your loss.   

[lotusblume]

Hi,

I wanted to reach out as I'm seeing you're both suffering. I too have wanted to run back to my mother for comfort at earlier times. Peg Streep, in her book Daughter Detox, calls this the "core conflict": that need to do what is best for yourself by separating from your mother and individuating while simultaneously still wanting her love and approval. It is deeply instinctual to want the mother bond, the love, care, approval, and comfort from our mothers. That doesn't seem to go away. It is natural and healthy. When we don't have our emotional needs reciprocated from our mothers, we experience the core conflict and longing for that which is not there, consistently or at all. It is a very sad thing to accept and I believe requires a lot of grieving.

When I've been feeling alone, I've started to sit with all of those difficult feelings, cry, scream, journal, feel, vent... And learn to be my own mother. My own best friend. I talk to myself positively and when aware of that inner critic I identify it and pick it apart. Something really clicked for me one night, reading Pete Walker's "The Tao of Fully Feeling". After trying for months to feel better, I finally accepted the grief that showed up, and cried like a baby. I imagined the little girl I once was that was still inside of me, and how hard her life had been, and how much I had echoed abuse to her by being self destructive and allowing my inner critic to destroy my self love. It is hard to describe, but I remembered. The little me that was. And after that experience of crying deeply without shaming myself, I recognized the little girl still inside of me, and began to have a relationship with her. I've been so much kinder to myself since then, the same way I would have wanted to be treated by my own mother I now treat myself.

I hope this may be helpful. I would definitely recommend that book. Sending virtual support and compassion your way.

[illogical]

I would ask myself if the church you currently attend has always made you feel the way you feel now?  Like they are judging you, hypercritical of you, etc.?

Or is their behavior magnified because of your mother and maybe you are overly sensitive to them?

If you feel as though they are cult-like, I would find another church.  That controlling type behavior is something I could not tolerate.  It might be healthier for you to consider visiting/joining another church because of your mother.  I would think it would be very difficult to separate from your mother when you are thrown into a major social setting with her every week (or maybe more often).

Part of coming Out of the FOG is learning that it's really okay to be you.  Not your mother's version.  Not people at church's version.  Not your extended family's version-- BUT YOU.

It's only natural to want the "comfort" of your mother because that's your default behavior.  We all tend to go to our defaults when we are under stress.

Breaking away from your mother is very difficult.  But if you want to grow and individuate, that is what you have to do.  Your mother is very toxic and very much a "smother mother" from what you have posted (in previous posts).  It's not okay with her to let YOU BE YOU.  I would not be taken in by her current Nice Act.  She is not your best friend.  She is manipulative and toxic.  Make a list of all the times she has hurt you and not had your best interest at heart.  Keep that journal entry handy to read over it when you feel the urge to return to her. 

I empathize with your loneliness.  But IMHO, you are better off with not having "best friends" to confide in for awhile, rather than returning to the poisoned well for water.  Because that's what it is.  Your mother is not going to change.  She has proven it by her behavior over and over.  That's a reality check.    Please take care.

[daughter]

I think your frustrations here reflect your Out of the FOG transition, where certain behaviors from other people, whether from your mother or acquaintances at church, were tolerable because that's what you once did, you patiently, and self-effacingly, tacitly allowed people to say/do things that were inappropriate, perhaps unkind, even mean, that were boundary-invasive, perhaps meddling and or shaming, that were perhaps motivated entirely from those folks' own selfish and self-serving purposes.  Certainly from your mother.  But also, as sometimes noted in your posts, from your church group acquaintances.  Being Out of the FOG, these "polite discomfort" situations become disconcerting, because we see the underlying motivations and conceit in what's framed as "telling you for your own good benefit!".  Oh, as if "correcting" us isn't really about making our critic feel less uncomfortable about their own shortcomings and insecurities.

As you well know, your mother isn't "best friend" material.  Mothers really aren't supposed to be their adult children's "besties".  There was a Wall Street Journal article this past week on this specific issue, about being approachable and friendly to your adult-children, but not expecting to be "friends", in the all-confiding, best-buds sense of friendship.  Your mother has long played "boss of you", which may have seemed at times as "besties", but you now know was a false façade masking a dysfunctional relationship of one-sided obligations, duties, and constant boundary violations.

Your church group circle of lady-friend candidates may in fact be "too judgey" for formulating a genuine friendship.  You describe a competitive environment where image of "perfectness" is too important.  True friends must "et their hair down", and be able to confide, keep confidences, and provide counsel and empathy without judgment.  Sounds like this group's individual ladies can't fill that bill.  So perhaps it's time to find other new forums for social interactions, like a club, or a cause, or a recreation sport, that's not this church.   Given your DH's leadership role at church, I think it's particularly important to cultivate a social outlet "outside of church", where you can be YOU, you the Out of the FOG person, and not DH's wife and your mother's daughter.  You may be "stuck" at this church, from a chosen religious congregation standpoint, because of DH's job, but it doesn't need to be the sole social outlet available to you. 

And in regards to these poeple who criticized your DD's "over-affectionate display", I've become too old to passively tolerate such jibes.  If their daughter has in fact been "overfriendly with boys", I'd have responded with a "my goodness, they've been so chaste - have you discussed your own daughter's behavior with her?"  The mom sounds like a bully, and yes likely motivated by jealousy and/or embarrassment solely emanating from her, not as a reaction to you or your daughter, but only from sense of trying to "hurt" someone else.  There's nothing wrong with exercising some verbal self-defense when someone is so off-putting and offensive.

[Andeza]

To be upfront, we currently don't have a church. In part this is due to my inexplicable ability to attract any and all PD's. Blegh

That being said, of course you're lonely! And you've suffered a tremendous loss. It's no wonder that at this delicate time you feel the temptation to draw closer to your mother once more. However please do resist that temptation. She's "on good behavior" (which from other things you've posted is not all that good really) because she feels you reaching for your independence and trying to become your own person rather than allow her to control your life, rage at you, dictate what you think, etc. She would love nothing more than to bring you back into the fold and reestablish her supply. The reason it's sooo tempting is because she's always been there, maybe not for you but at least as a physical presence. You're looking for something solid to attach to when you're reeling in shock and understandably feeling very broken right now. This is normal. It's normal to hurt, for a very long time. I'm so sorry you're going through it, but I have faith that you will make it out the other side.

You do not, however, need to fill this need for a close friend from the circles within your church. Given the behavior of some of the members toward you (talk about needing to drag the log out of their eye first, sheesh) I wouldn't recommend it.

You have the freedom to meet and make friends wherever you are most comfortable. The library, book club, the coffee shop, a sport's game... It doesn't matter so long as it's some place you enjoy. If it's some place you enjoy, then you're more likely to make friends that enjoy the same things you do. If you really want to make a new friend, that's what I recommend.

As for your church environment, I agree you've likely grown a heightened awareness of unbalanced behavior as you journey Out of the FOG. You can see it, identify it, and feel your gut twist just a bit anytime someone does something outside normal in your presence. The other huge, glaring reason we don't have a church right now? Sunday Christians. The phenomenon of people that go to church every Sunday, sing the songs, tithe like good Christians ought to... and then during the rest of the week they live like anybody else in the world. At a glance, you wouldn't know they were Christians at all. I couldn't take it anymore. Because there is no love, no patience, no purity, no good thing in them at all. I think you're running into a few of those, and oh how they like you to believe that they're sooo perfect, such good little Christians...  Keep your eyes wide open. See and accept warning signs for what they are. You'll be all right.

Do something nice for yourself, my friend. I feel that you are under immense amounts of pressure and that in part is where your hyper-criticism is coming from. Take a bubble bath, a walk in the park, a nice massage... You get the idea. Life is long, complicated, and sometimes painful. It's certainly hard enough without beating yourself up over everything. When emotions run high, such as a time of loss, it tends to have a physiological effect. You're feeling that right now. Your body is producing excess cortisol, your adrenal glands are working overtime, and you need to just slow everything down a bit (before your thyroid or something else smacks you over the head like mine did me). If you're not opposed I would recommend doing some yoga at home in a quiet room. Lots of lovely, and easy, beginner stuff on youtube. I like it because it's not high impact like running, but it encourages you to monitor your breathing, become more aware of your body and how tense you are, and how to control these two things. Great for stress. And exercise flushes cortisol out of your system, whereas left to itself it causes damage. Take care.

[WomanInterrupted]

I'm sorry you're still in so much pain and turmoil about the loss of your dear friend, Dinah Sore.   

The next time the overly-nosy Church Lady makes a comment about your DD, you could remind her that Matthew 7:1 states, "Judge not lest ye be judged."   

I also agree that finding friends outside the church folks is probably your best bet.  It just seems like everybody there is a little too up in everybody else's business, and are a little too close for comfort.   

Familiarity really can breed contempt - and jealousy, and a whole lot of other negative emotions, when everybody is vying to *appear* perfect - including your mom, who is NOT somebody safe for you to confide in.   

Your mom is probably the first person who was hyper-critical of every aspect of your being, and that's carried over to being self-conscious among your church-going peers, and thinking they're judging every tiny thing about you, when most probably aren't, and probably think you're a good person. 

I'd actively avoid anybody overly-judgmental, and I'd block them on social media, too.  If asked about it, you can always say you just don't have time for FB - you've got too much going on - and that will hopefully be the end of it. 

*Anything* can trigger C-PTSD, IME, and grief can be a *very* strong, intense emotion, that seems to never want to end  - until the day it doesn't hurt so badly, and you finally accept what has happened.  There's no set time-table for it, and it's different for everybody, and also varies from situation to situation.

Contact with your mom (even during her Nice Act) and judgy people at church *doesn't help* when you already feel bad, and that Inner Critic  in your head is doing a number on you.

You're not the only one with that problem.  Pink once said, "If I could change one thing about myself it would be the voices in my head.  They don't like me."

What I like to do, and my DH has adopted, is reminding myself  about the *positives.* 

What would your late friend say to you? Probably something positive, which was why she was your friend.  Remind yourself of the things she'd say to you - and remind yourself that you DO make good decisions, you ARE a good mother and a good  person - and a good Christian, too - and it doesn't matter that everybody may not like you - that's *their* loss.   

Since you're grieving and there's no one way to grieve, I'd concentrate on staying away from negative or toxic people (including your mom and churchgoing busybodies, who are more concerned with what others do and say than keeping their own houses in order), cut back on church activities you may not like (or have lost your interest, for the time being) and focus on YOU.   

What do you LIKE to do?  I'd do that instead.  A loving, merciful God would understand we all need some down-time and need to get into our own heads for a while, to figure stuff out.

After the death of Arlo, who'd claimed us as his only 4 short years prior, I learned online how to reupholster and wound up doing every soft surface in the house (couch, love seat, easy chairs, computer chairs, waterbed rails, dining room set, cat trees, cat stairs) then set about making sheers, drapes, blackout curtains, styin' valances and tiebacks, and roman shades.

Yes, I was a busy little bee - almost a manic little bee - but I *needed* to do something because the grief was so all-consuming, it threatened to swallow me whole.   

It didn't bring Arlo back, but something about all that measuring, pinning, cutting, reupholstering and sewing  and *making a difference in our surroundings by beautifying them* DID help - and taught me an important lesson in that I'm GOOD at that stuff! 

It wasn't deep or spiritual - but it kept my mind occupied with *facts* and *numbers* - which I needed, because it was *order* among too many abstracts *and* shut that damned Inner Critic up for long periods of time, because I was concentrating on something else. 

Maybe that's what you need?  A new hobby or distraction, or maybe taking up an old one  you loved, but were discouraged from, thanks to your mom's disapproval?

Best of all, she'll never know, because you won't tell her. 

I know you're a good person, a good mom, a good friend.  You're an intelligent woman with a great sense of humor, and are religious without lording it over people, or telling them their beliefs are wrong, so they're going to hell.   

You're kind, compassionate, thoughtful and make GOOD decisions, without being told what to do by somebody who only makes bad or selfish ones.

I haven't met you, but I see the real you in your words. 

I hope one day you see the person I see, because she's *amazing.*   

[Sojourner17]

Hi Dinahsore,  I'm so sorry about the loss of your best friend! It must be a tough time for you.  All of the people have given you wonderful encouragement on this post so far. 

I'm sorry that church is not a safe spot for you right now. I bet that grieves Gods heart... probably even makes him angry.  In anyways the women you write about do not sound like very safe people to cultivate friendships with. 

I don't know who said it on here but someone mentioned slowing things down/ someone else mentioned starting a new hobby. Both sound good 😉

When I was reading your post the thoughts that came to mind were to armour up Ephesians 6 style but also to take shelter under God's wing (I hope it's not overstepping to say so, if so please forgive me). Perhaps Psalms would help? 

I hope that you can find some space and gain some peace. Im rooting for you!

[Dinah-sore]

While it is different, I feel many of same emotions and ask myself the same questions.   I've been suffering without a close friend who I can see in person for quite a few years living here.   I have some old high school friends who I text, but they live very far away and 2 very casual acquaintances here who I know gossip about me.  I can tell them nothing and they still gossip based on things they have learned from my children.  I ask myself the same questions.  Do I look funny?  Do I act funny?  Do I wear the wrong clothes (YES)?  Do I come across as too mean?  Too needy?  Too standoffish?  Are my kids behaving in a way others don't like?  They ostracize people for next to nothing and judge everyone.   It's also cultish and so very isolating.  Like you said, it's controlling through ostracism and not being good enough.  Instead of not being Christian enough, it's not being fashionable, skinny, and social media savvy enough. 

Here's my first bit of advice. I truly believe that having been raised by a PDm does affect the way we relate to these critical judgmental people whether it's not being Christian and perfect enough in that way or not being perfect enough in how we look and act in a social media savvy community.  My PD controlled me by telling me all of the time that I wasn't good enough.  I had to be her friend because no one else accepted me because I wasn't the smartest, prettiest, most talented, etc.  And of course she was just trying to "protect me" from being "hurt" by them.  She convinced me that shouldn't trust anyone but her.  I couldn't make a single decision for myself or it was wrong. 

Here's my other advice.  The only friend I had here moved several years ago and then I had a serious health scare.  My PTSD came raging back. I was a mess and utterly  lonely. I was scared and needed people desperately.   In swooped my uPDm, who seemed like she was better.  She was also on new meds and her "good behavior".  I had no close friend to talk to... not one, and she was there.  Of course she was.   She loved the attention she was getting because I was off my game.  But she was an actual human person to talk to on the phone when I was going days or weeks at a time without talking to anyone but my children and my husband who works crazy hours and I frequently only see on weekends.  I fell quickly back into the FOG and now I am digging myself back out.  I made a HUGE mistake by letting her back in because I was lonely.  She acted like a best friend, asked me questions (interrogated me), got information from me (deeply personal, private information) and now in recent months has used it against me. She has used it to criticize me, undermine my parenting, and gossip to her church friends about me using deeply private and personal information that I never should have shared.  I was lonely.  I am still lonely, but sharing with her was a mistake and I am paying a high price for it now.  You feel drawn to your PD because you are lonely.  Of course you are.  You've experienced the loss of someone very close to you. 

Like your husband, mine thinks that I should just be friends with the judgmental, gossipy women that I casually know here.  He thinks that at least I will see others and have people to talk to, but I hate that they are gossiping about things I do and say.  I'm not sure they would even accept me if I tried to get closer to them.  I don't fit their mold of what is acceptable.   Some have even posted private things about me on social media attempting to "help" me with my health issue.  Isn't that just what my PDm is doing?   Is it better to be lonely or spend time with critical, judgmental people?  I think it's better to be lonely, but lonely is awful.  Getting back into the FOG is awful.  I've tried every way that I have read about online to meet people who are kind and not judgmental, but I've had no luck.  So I'm back to digging Out of the FOG and texting my HS friends for human companionship.  It might sound sexist, but I think husbands just don't get the need for personal relationships that women need. 

So, I'm not sure if any of that helped at all, but I understand.  I truly understand and I'm so sorry for your loss.

Wow, thank you so much for everything that you shared. I can totally see the similarities in our social groups. It made me realize that it isn't just "church" stuff, it is human stuff. There are people in any social setting who act like this. That helps. Because it makes me feel less like they are "right" and I am "falling short of the standards" and more like, "people are just messed up, anywhere you go."

Dude, my mom used to make me feel horrible about myself too, and then act like she was protecting me by doing it. And all so I could be dependent only on her for everything. Wow. She still does that. Also, you mention how even you wonder if your kids are behaving in ways that others don't like. This is something that I am just recently seeing is connected to the FOG. I worry that my kids won't measure up to the standards other people have, and instead of letting that worry go and supporting my kids and ignoring the criticisms, I ruminate on it. If my kids are less than perfect I worry, I constantly want to pass my people pleasing nature onto them. It is a huge temptation that I fight weekly. But the stress of that wears me down emotionally and physically. It is almost like I think, "If I could just teach them how to be codependent, their lives will be so much smoother." LOL. Yikes. Dr. Phil would say, "How's that working for you, Dinah?" hahaha.

I like what you said too about being lonely. It is better to be lonely, as bad as lonely is, than to build more friendships where I am going to be steered by FOG.

Hi,

I wanted to reach out as I'm seeing you're both suffering. I too have wanted to run back to my mother for comfort at earlier times. Peg Streep, in her book Daughter Detox, calls this the "core conflict": that need to do what is best for yourself by separating from your mother and individuating while simultaneously still wanting her love and approval. It is deeply instinctual to want the mother bond, the love, care, approval, and comfort from our mothers. That doesn't seem to go away. It is natural and healthy. When we don't have our emotional needs reciprocated from our mothers, we experience the core conflict and longing for that which is not there, consistently or at all. It is a very sad thing to accept and I believe requires a lot of grieving.

When I've been feeling alone, I've started to sit with all of those difficult feelings, cry, scream, journal, feel, vent... And learn to be my own mother. My own best friend. I talk to myself positively and when aware of that inner critic I identify it and pick it apart. Something really clicked for me one night, reading Pete Walker's "The Tao of Fully Feeling". After trying for months to feel better, I finally accepted the grief that showed up, and cried like a baby. I imagined the little girl I once was that was still inside of me, and how hard her life had been, and how much I had echoed abuse to her by being self destructive and allowing my inner critic to destroy my self love. It is hard to describe, but I remembered. The little me that was. And after that experience of crying deeply without shaming myself, I recognized the little girl still inside of me, and began to have a relationship with her. I've been so much kinder to myself since then, the same way I would have wanted to be treated by my own mother I now treat myself.

I hope this may be helpful. I would definitely recommend that book. Sending virtual support and compassion your way.

Thank you so much, I love how you communicate. Your way with words is very soothing and calming. Thank you. I love how you said, that this need that I am feeling is a natural need. Love, care, approval, and comfort from our mothers was what I deserved and am looking for. I need to grieve it, not feel guilty for wanting something that I don't have. It is okay that I am sad about that.

Also, Sunday at our Easter service, I was seated toward the back and these two grandparents came and sat in the row in front of me with their granddaughter who was probably about 6 or 7. What struck me, was that the little girl looked exactly like I did when I was her age, same hair color and style. Same eye shape and button nose. Same coloring. Same kind of Easter dress. She was an only child, like me. She was with her grandma at church, like me, because my parents were not religious back then. I used to visit my grandma's church with her and she would love to show me off to all her friends. It was like looking at who I was. And I had this surge of affection for this little girl that I don't even know, who was quiet and bored, and on her best behavior. I also had a surge of affection for who I was. It was like I saw how I was precious too. And I pictured that little girl growing up in my home, seeing the things I saw, hearing the junk I heard, and it made me sad for her.

I think I wonder sometimes if my mom is really "that bad," or if I am just being a "drama queen" inside my own head. I think, what if I am imagining that my BPDm was/is abusive. What if everything my mom says about her parenting and our relationship is true and I am the mean one to her? But, it is true. My mom was mean and not a good mother, to a precious little girl who was so trusting and vulnerable. It is sad. I have Pete Walkers other book, I think I will check out the Tao of Fully Feeling. It sounds lovely.

I would ask myself if the church you currently attend has always made you feel the way you feel now?  Like they are judging you, hypercritical of you, etc.?

Or is their behavior magnified because of your mother and maybe you are overly sensitive to them?

If you feel as though they are cult-like, I would find another church.  That controlling type behavior is something I could not tolerate.  It might be healthier for you to consider visiting/joining another church because of your mother.  I would think it would be very difficult to separate from your mother when you are thrown into a major social setting with her every week (or maybe more often).

Part of coming Out of the FOG is learning that it's really okay to be you.  Not your mother's version.  Not people at church's version.  Not your extended family's version-- BUT YOU.

It's only natural to want the "comfort" of your mother because that's your default behavior.  We all tend to go to our defaults when we are under stress.

Breaking away from your mother is very difficult.  But if you want to grow and individuate, that is what you have to do.  Your mother is very toxic and very much a "smother mother" from what you have posted (in previous posts).  It's not okay with her to let YOU BE YOU.  I would not be taken in by her current Nice Act.  She is not your best friend.  She is manipulative and toxic.  Make a list of all the times she has hurt you and not had your best interest at heart.  Keep that journal entry handy to read over it when you feel the urge to return to her. 

I empathize with your loneliness.  But IMHO, you are better off with not having "best friends" to confide in for awhile, rather than returning to the poisoned well for water.  Because that's what it is.  Your mother is not going to change.  She has proven it by her behavior over and over.  That's a reality check.    Please take care.

Thank you for helping me think this through. I think that I never noticed the critical nature of people there, because I used to think they were right about everything, so if I was not doing what they thought was right, it was me that was the problem. Same with how I grew up. I do not think that everyone at the church is that toxic. But I think that the toxic people are the loudest, and the other nice people go along with it for the same reason that I did--that they think that the loud people must be right, and we should just do better. So it is almost like there are no dissenting  voices. There is just loud opinionated gossipy legalistic people, and then nice people who almost act like flying monkeys to "bridge the gap" and "keep the peace." The nice people give the "benefit of the doubt" to the judgmental people, saying that they mean well and are trying to help or they are really more committed to the faith. There are no strong leaders who loudly proclaim freedom, grace, and unconditional love. So it is hard to find someone who doesn't trigger my people pleasing default. Maybe I need to be the voice that loudly proclaims freedom, grace and unconditional love?

What you said, about being me, that is what I want. I feel like anything less than that is FOG.

You are right about my BPDm. Even this weekend, I had to see her a couple times. At first I was more open and trying to bond with her. But by the end of the holiday she was snapping at me, making faces, letting me know how she is upset about me not telling her everything, telling me how to parent my kids, scolding and controlling my dad at my house, complaining about the food I bought and made as I hosted the holiday she was supposed to host but didn't want to clean her house for. She refused to eat half of the stuff because she said she "can't" (which is a lie). But the special "low carb" foods I cooked for her she turned her nose up at and told me they were not cooked properly. Then because she is "sugar free" she would sneak jellybeans from the candy dish when she thought I wasn't looking.

At one point I was BBQing her meat and I was coming back into the house through the garage, and my dad came out to check and see if he could help me carry anything, and apparently we were in the garage too long, and she accused us of telling secrets that we didn't want her to hear. And scolded us. It is nuts. She is not my friend. Let alone my best friend. She is difficult to be around. She is impossible to please. And seriously, when she tried to be encouraging, it feels so truly like manipulation that it makes me feel sick in my stomach.

I think your frustrations here reflect your Out of the FOG transition, where certain behaviors from other people, whether from your mother or acquaintances at church, were tolerable because that's what you once did, you patiently, and self-effacingly, tacitly allowed people to say/do things that were inappropriate, perhaps unkind, even mean, that were boundary-invasive, perhaps meddling and or shaming, that were perhaps motivated entirely from those folks' own selfish and self-serving purposes.  Certainly from your mother.  But also, as sometimes noted in your posts, from your church group acquaintances.  Being Out of the FOG, these "polite discomfort" situations become disconcerting, because we see the underlying motivations and conceit in what's framed as "telling you for your own good benefit!".  Oh, as if "correcting" us isn't really about making our critic feel less uncomfortable about their own shortcomings and insecurities.

As you well know, your mother isn't "best friend" material.  Mothers really aren't supposed to be their adult children's "besties".  There was a Wall Street Journal article this past week on this specific issue, about being approachable and friendly to your adult-children, but not expecting to be "friends", in the all-confiding, best-buds sense of friendship.  Your mother has long played "boss of you", which may have seemed at times as "besties", but you now know was a false façade masking a dysfunctional relationship of one-sided obligations, duties, and constant boundary violations.

Your church group circle of lady-friend candidates may in fact be "too judgey" for formulating a genuine friendship.  You describe a competitive environment where image of "perfectness" is too important.  True friends must "et their hair down", and be able to confide, keep confidences, and provide counsel and empathy without judgment.  Sounds like this group's individual ladies can't fill that bill.  So perhaps it's time to find other new forums for social interactions, like a club, or a cause, or a recreation sport, that's not this church.   Given your DH's leadership role at church, I think it's particularly important to cultivate a social outlet "outside of church", where you can be YOU, you the Out of the FOG person, and not DH's wife and your mother's daughter.  You may be "stuck" at this church, from a chosen religious congregation standpoint, because of DH's job, but it doesn't need to be the sole social outlet available to you. 

And in regards to these poeple who criticized your DD's "over-affectionate display", I've become too old to passively tolerate such jibes.  If their daughter has in fact been "overfriendly with boys", I'd have responded with a "my goodness, they've been so chaste - have you discussed your own daughter's behavior with her?"  The mom sounds like a bully, and yes likely motivated by jealousy and/or embarrassment solely emanating from her, not as a reaction to you or your daughter, but only from sense of trying to "hurt" someone else.  There's nothing wrong with exercising some verbal self-defense when someone is so off-putting and offensive.

Thank you so much for sharing. This is exactly how I feel. And that is the kind of friendship I want. And I think you are right, I may need to go outside of the church to find this, and it is okay. I think for my DH, he is so wrapped up in that church, he can't see that it is okay to have friends outside of it. He is there all the time. He is also someone who thinks everybody is his friend, but all his "friends" are younger and he is practically their boss. So it isn't like a real friendship of equals. I think the fact that he acts like it would be wrong for me to find friends from outside the church is really controlling and unhealthy. He acts like it would be wrong. But the whole world doesn't revolve around this one church. It doesn't have to be my whole universe.

To be upfront, we currently don't have a church. In part this is due to my inexplicable ability to attract any and all PD's. Blegh

That being said, of course you're lonely! And you've suffered a tremendous loss. It's no wonder that at this delicate time you feel the temptation to draw closer to your mother once more. However please do resist that temptation. She's "on good behavior" (which from other things you've posted is not all that good really) because she feels you reaching for your independence and trying to become your own person rather than allow her to control your life, rage at you, dictate what you think, etc. She would love nothing more than to bring you back into the fold and reestablish her supply. The reason it's sooo tempting is because she's always been there, maybe not for you but at least as a physical presence. You're looking for something solid to attach to when you're reeling in shock and understandably feeling very broken right now. This is normal. It's normal to hurt, for a very long time. I'm so sorry you're going through it, but I have faith that you will make it out the other side.

You do not, however, need to fill this need for a close friend from the circles within your church. Given the behavior of some of the members toward you (talk about needing to drag the log out of their eye first, sheesh) I wouldn't recommend it.

You have the freedom to meet and make friends wherever you are most comfortable. The library, book club, the coffee shop, a sport's game... It doesn't matter so long as it's some place you enjoy. If it's some place you enjoy, then you're more likely to make friends that enjoy the same things you do. If you really want to make a new friend, that's what I recommend.

As for your church environment, I agree you've likely grown a heightened awareness of unbalanced behavior as you journey Out of the FOG. You can see it, identify it, and feel your gut twist just a bit anytime someone does something outside normal in your presence. The other huge, glaring reason we don't have a church right now? Sunday Christians. The phenomenon of people that go to church every Sunday, sing the songs, tithe like good Christians ought to... and then during the rest of the week they live like anybody else in the world. At a glance, you wouldn't know they were Christians at all. I couldn't take it anymore. Because there is no love, no patience, no purity, no good thing in them at all. I think you're running into a few of those, and oh how they like you to believe that they're sooo perfect, such good little Christians...  Keep your eyes wide open. See and accept warning signs for what they are. You'll be all right.

Do something nice for yourself, my friend. I feel that you are under immense amounts of pressure and that in part is where your hyper-criticism is coming from. Take a bubble bath, a walk in the park, a nice massage... You get the idea. Life is long, complicated, and sometimes painful. It's certainly hard enough without beating yourself up over everything. When emotions run high, such as a time of loss, it tends to have a physiological effect. You're feeling that right now. Your body is producing excess cortisol, your adrenal glands are working overtime, and you need to just slow everything down a bit (before your thyroid or something else smacks you over the head like mine did me). If you're not opposed I would recommend doing some yoga at home in a quiet room. Lots of lovely, and easy, beginner stuff on youtube. I like it because it's not high impact like running, but it encourages you to monitor your breathing, become more aware of your body and how tense you are, and how to control these two things. Great for stress. And exercise flushes cortisol out of your system, whereas left to itself it causes damage. Take care.

Thank you so much for that encouragement. You are right, I do need to take care of myself and really tend to my health right now. I am sure that all of this is going to take a big toll on my own wellbeing. What is so funny is that my hair turned white. The week my friend died, my entire right side of my head turned white, and the left side is half white. It used to be light brown. I have to get blonde highlights now so I don't look like a grandma. I am only in my mid-forties. So I know all the emotions are producing chemicals and hormones in me that are effecting me more than I realize. I do exercise, but i should spend more time stretching and doing restorative practices too.

And you are right, I am more sensitive to unhealthy behavior than ever before. I have an aversion to manipulation, shame, control, and gossip. My old strategy was just to be "good enough" as a protection, so people wouldn't do this to me. Now I realize that it is futile. I want to be me, and do my best to be a great person, but my motivation is no longer to please these unhealthy people. I don't want to be around unhealthy people.

Another thing that makes friendship difficult is my DH is very talkative (that is an understatement). He dominates all conversations. So instead of getting to know people, I just sit in a group and listen as he talks endlessly about himself to other people. Even when I am with my best friend's family. I have told DH that I need to be included in the conversation a bit more, because it is hard for me without my friend there to talk to. It used to be me and my best friend talking, and my DH and her DH talking. But now she is gone, and instead of letting me and her husband talk to each other about how we are doing, my DH talks the whole time about how he thinks we are doing and what he thinks about it. It isn't mean. It just feels a bit selfish, but I don't think he means to exclude me. I think it is just him. He is super social. At least there is not awkward silences ever. But it makes it hard to talk to people, when I never get a chance to actually talk to the people we are talking to.

I'm sorry you're still in so much pain and turmoil about the loss of your dear friend, Dinah Sore.   

The next time the overly-nosy Church Lady makes a comment about your DD, you could remind her that Matthew 7:1 states, "Judge not lest ye be judged."   

I also agree that finding friends outside the church folks is probably your best bet.  It just seems like everybody there is a little too up in everybody else's business, and are a little too close for comfort.   

Familiarity really can breed contempt - and jealousy, and a whole lot of other negative emotions, when everybody is vying to *appear* perfect - including your mom, who is NOT somebody safe for you to confide in.   

Your mom is probably the first person who was hyper-critical of every aspect of your being, and that's carried over to being self-conscious among your church-going peers, and thinking they're judging every tiny thing about you, when most probably aren't, and probably think you're a good person. 

I'd actively avoid anybody overly-judgmental, and I'd block them on social media, too.  If asked about it, you can always say you just don't have time for FB - you've got too much going on - and that will hopefully be the end of it. 

*Anything* can trigger C-PTSD, IME, and grief can be a *very* strong, intense emotion, that seems to never want to end  - until the day it doesn't hurt so badly, and you finally accept what has happened.  There's no set time-table for it, and it's different for everybody, and also varies from situation to situation.

Contact with your mom (even during her Nice Act) and judgy people at church *doesn't help* when you already feel bad, and that Inner Critic  in your head is doing a number on you.

You're not the only one with that problem.  Pink once said, "If I could change one thing about myself it would be the voices in my head.  They don't like me."

What I like to do, and my DH has adopted, is reminding myself  about the *positives.* 

What would your late friend say to you? Probably something positive, which was why she was your friend.  Remind yourself of the things she'd say to you - and remind yourself that you DO make good decisions, you ARE a good mother and a good  person - and a good Christian, too - and it doesn't matter that everybody may not like you - that's *their* loss.   

Since you're grieving and there's no one way to grieve, I'd concentrate on staying away from negative or toxic people (including your mom and churchgoing busybodies, who are more concerned with what others do and say than keeping their own houses in order), cut back on church activities you may not like (or have lost your interest, for the time being) and focus on YOU.   

What do you LIKE to do?  I'd do that instead.  A loving, merciful God would understand we all need some down-time and need to get into our own heads for a while, to figure stuff out.

After the death of Arlo, who'd claimed us as his only 4 short years prior, I learned online how to reupholster and wound up doing every soft surface in the house (couch, love seat, easy chairs, computer chairs, waterbed rails, dining room set, cat trees, cat stairs) then set about making sheers, drapes, blackout curtains, styin' valances and tiebacks, and roman shades.

Yes, I was a busy little bee - almost a manic little bee - but I *needed* to do something because the grief was so all-consuming, it threatened to swallow me whole. 

It didn't bring Arlo back, but something about all that measuring, pinning, cutting, reupholstering and sewing  and *making a difference in our surroundings by beautifying them* DID help - and taught me an important lesson in that I'm GOOD at that stuff! 

It wasn't deep or spiritual - but it kept my mind occupied with *facts* and *numbers* - which I needed, because it was *order* among too many abstracts *and* shut that damned Inner Critic up for long periods of time, because I was concentrating on something else. 

Maybe that's what you need?  A new hobby or distraction, or maybe taking up an old one  you loved, but were discouraged from, thanks to your mom's disapproval?

Best of all, she'll never know, because you won't tell her. 

I know you're a good person, a good mom, a good friend.  You're an intelligent woman with a great sense of humor, and are religious without lording it over people, or telling them their beliefs are wrong, so they're going to hell.   

You're kind, compassionate, thoughtful and make GOOD decisions, without being told what to do by somebody who only makes bad or selfish ones.

I haven't met you, but I see the real you in your words. 

I hope one day you see the person I see, because she's *amazing.*   

Thank you so much <3. This is so true. I am thinking of joining a christian codependent support group that is close enough to my home. I think it might be a good place to meet people who have similar backgrounds and are on a healing path. Who knows, maybe I will click with someone? That would be so nice. It would also be a place for me to go alone, and be me, all by myself. Maybe after that, I can take a class at the community college just for fun? I am already done with school, but it would be nice to pursue a creative hobby.

Isn't it true how helpful all the mundane tasks of the day can be? My house has never been cleaner!!!! LOL. I am constantly soothing myself by cleaning the kitchen, mopping, vacuuming, folding laundry, etc. All the things that I can just focus on, listen to music or a youtube video, and just zone out and clean, it helps my mind and emotions. It pulls me through the day. Like a weird form of meditation. Grief is so weird.

And also, thank you for mentioning what my friend would think about me. She was amazing. She was a strong, confident, healthy, fun, funny, loving woman. She was so good to me. She knew all my faults and sins and loved me to death anyways. She would be encouraging me right now. She would be building me up. It means a lot to me to think of what she would be saying right now. I miss her so much. And I am thankful for you, because you said a lot of really nice things to me too. Things she would have said, and it is a gift to be able to come here. And have people here, who know things about me that nobody knows in real life. You know me, and you encourage me, even though you don't know me. I am so thankful for you.

Hi Dinahsore,  I'm so sorry about the loss of your best friend! It must be a tough time for you.  All of the people have given you wonderful encouragement on this post so far. 

I'm sorry that church is not a safe spot for you right now. I bet that grieves Gods heart... probably even makes him angry.  In anyways the women you write about do not sound like very safe people to cultivate friendships with. 

I don't know who said it on here but someone mentioned slowing things down/ someone else mentioned starting a new hobby. Both sound good 😉

When I was reading your post the thoughts that came to mind were to armour up Ephesians 6 style but also to take shelter under God's wing (I hope it's not overstepping to say so, if so please forgive me). Perhaps Psalms would help? 

I hope that you can find some space and gain some peace. Im rooting for you!

Thank you so much. I believe those thoughts that come to your mind as you read my post were from the Lord. I will definitely meditate on Ephesians 6 and the Psalms have been most helpful. I listened to a study on Psalm 88 and Psalm 39--grieving psalms and it really helped me see how much compassion and grace God has for us when we are so sad that it is hard to even see any goodness at all. Thank you for encouraging me in the scriptures. <3

Thank you all so much. After this weekend I had my fill of BPDm, and I can safely say that I am no longer in the same emotional space where I feel drawn to her. I do not at all feel drawn to her. I am once again frustrated with her behavior. That is good (and not good), but good---safer. LOL. You guys probably get it.

Thank you for helping me work through the weird emotions that I have, the grief has made me feel desperate for care. I have spent 20 years in a role where I have been there for other people who need some love or someone to talk to. It is hard for me to be the one who needs care and someone to talk to, IRL. I feel like I am supposed to just keep being there for other people, and not expect someone to be there for me. But I was praying about this because I don't want to let pride rob me from humility. I need to admit that I don't have it all together right now, I am broken, and I could use support. I don't have to pretend I am doing fine. It is okay that I am not fine. God is big enough for my brokenness. I am just praying and open to what good friends God would bring into my life. But I don't want in desperation to cling to people that will drown me in FOG, because that is not help, that is bondage.

Thank you all for being here for me this weekend. <3 <3 <3 Bless you all.

[lotusblume]

Sending a hug from my inner child to yours

[all4peace]

I'm going to respond before reading all the responses, but I did read lotusblume's and agree 1000%. Many of us here on this forum did and still do not have the parents we wanted and needed. Now we're adults with wounded children inside of us, still wanting a connection with the people who are our parents. But they still aren't capable.

For me, parenting my inner child was the beginning of really good healing. It's when my inner critic stopped screaming at me, when the toxic shame started to die a slow death, and when I started having compassion not only for others but for myself. I was just a little girl. You were just a little girl. We were supposed to be cherished, delighted in, supported, and loved unconditionally. Our parents were supposed to teach us that we were so precious that we would not need to settle for unhealthy relationships. That it would be better to have lonely periods of life than to spend time with people who deliberately harm us.

It may be easier to say than do, but please consider using this lonely and painful time to reparent yourself. Part of parenting is discovering what makes you feel peace, joy, excitement, passion, energy. What hobbies might you want to learn? What new skills may you want to learn?  Would time alone in nature appeal to your soul? Music, reading, walking?

I have come to a point in life where I would rather be alone for big chunks of time than to spend time with toxic people. Alone, we can attune to nature, God and ourselves. With toxic people, we just get drained, polluted and exhausted.

Your M is still your M, and it's highly unlikely she has become spontaneously healthy, even if she is on "good behavior" at this moment. I'm not suggesting you avoid her, but I would be cautious about opening your heart wide open in this vulnerable time.

Hugs to you. Some parts of life are really, really hard.

[all4peace]

I want to add another vote to reading in Psalms. David goes through the entire range of human emotion and I have personally found it very comforting in very lonely and painful times. I love the part where the writer talks about being fearfully and wonderfully made, about God knowing him when he was being knit together in the womb. Since you describe having a faith practice, that can be a very comforting place to lean into during lonely times.

To me, the spirit in your church seems toxic. It can be really challenging to navigate these attitudes in a place where we're supposed to be safe and comforted. It's beyond the pale, imo, for someone to be openly criticizing your daughter's behavior, and I'm glad you feel defensive of her.

There are good people in the world, Christian and non-Christian alike. I hope some of them start crossing your path!