Out of the FOG

I will start a new thread in this part of the forum as this has become inevitable. One of the last things I wrote in the other one was that I need to get a plan to get out. I didn't think it could get any worse from there, but it has. She went away for a few days with a friend, first time she ever left me and the kids at home on our own. We had a blast all weekend, kids laughing and not fighting at all as they usually do. She then comes home from this trip with her friend (which I am pretty sure has some PD problem herself) and it had not even gone 10 minutes before she kicked off with all 3 of us and raged the entire evening and the entire day after. Apparently, she has not got her way with her friend and only done things her friend wanted to do (this is typical my uNPDw as she then becomes a victim and has the right to complain). To top this all up now both kids have caught Covid and we all must isolate in the house, but you know who is the biggest victim? Yes you guessed it right. I really don't know how to survive over a week isolating like this, suppose I at least have the reason to stay in a different room to her and try to plan for the exit. But Good help me, I don't think I can manage no Jade and MC with being provoked 24/7, I know I can't as I already have slipped several times with her gaslighting. I really do hate her, my stomach turns when I look at her and when I hear her false voice talking utter sh*t.

Oh, when she was away SG sat down with me in calm and told me how wonderful and calm it is without her mum in the house.....

Consider it as a test.  The Ironman of living with a PD.  Your resolve is being tested to the extreme.  Then go back to MC and Grey Rock.  Masterclass. If you are anything like I am,  you will be amazed how much in control of the situation you feel and how much stronger and happier with yourself you feel when you refuse being manipulated into doing or saying things you don't want to. Or feeling how you don't really feel inside.

This has escalated, it really is a nightmare. The gaslighting and triangulation has reached new heights. She keeps back chatting me and making up stories for the Golden Child which has ended up GC has taken it up herself to shout and swear at me. It's only so much you can take before you break down, which I did in the end and lost it. I know I need out, but now with all of us isolating there is no escape even for a few minutes. My fleas are coming back in this environment, I hate myself for it.

The other day she announced from nowhere she hates the house and we need to sell and move. First she says we can just divide the money and go separate ways, then she starts talking to the children about we all will go to a bigger house with bigger garden and more space etc. Does she really think moving would make all problems just go away? She find another 1000 problems as soon as she would be in a new house. Then we had a massive row again, or she had a massive shouting session telling me how much she hates me etc, so I told her that we are done and she needs to move out as soon as this is over. She ignored that and 5r minutes later pretends it's all fine again. This craziness is driving me absolutely mental, I can't remember how normal people behave but my guess is that is if someone declares they want to end the relationship, move apart and divorce you would listen to it? Oh no, she keeps talking about holidays, projects, house moves and you name it.

I am trying to be decent but I can't, I don't want to throw away any more of my life. I have told her I want a divorce, if she ignores that it's her problem, it should come as no surprise when I go ahead with it.

Just to add one note of another light bulb moment I have had this week, how she behaves towards me has absolutely nothing to do with how I have behaved towards her and has nothing to do with me. I can tell her to F* off and five minutes later she comes and declares her undying love for me, I can be as nice as you can to her and she comes and stick two fingers up to me telling me she hates me. It's like living with a robot, you have no idea what you get and it doesn't matter how you behave. Everything, absolutely everything is depending on how her wires are connected in a particular moment and if they flag up white or black.

It is a very hard but important lesson to realize that their behavior really has nothing to do with you.  You cant control what she does or thinks.  It took a long time for that to really sink in for me.
Also, the denial can be astonishing.  In my case, I was absolutely clear that we are done.  We are living separately.  I filed for divorce and we are going back and forth on a settlement.  Still, the other day (after some love bombing), he wanted to get together to talk about our relationship.  Like, if he sends one kind text, surely that erases our entire bad history.  I've had to tell him over and over that we are absolutely done.  So, I can totally relate to how hard that can be to deal with, and can attest to the fact that the denial may continue even after you live separately.
Stay strong.  It sounds like the fog has lifted and you have a good perspective on the situation.  I'm sorry that your "GC" is still in the fog.  Id try to engage as little as possible and go gray rock as much as you could.  I'm sure having to isolate in that situation is difficult. 

If I tell someone that I'm "absolutely done" (or similar words) and then I stay in the situation, I understand why other people might be confused by my intentions.

Poison Ivy, that is not true. We share a roof, but sleep in different rooms and spend minimal time together. I keep to myself, but she tries to deny this and pretends all is well. I left the relationship a long time ago, but because of lock downs and isolations I have struggled to get to the next step. I tried to leave twice but missed my kids to much and could not fint a way round lock down rules so went back.

Today has just been another one of those days, this morning she had complete amnesia about her shouting and screaming yesterday. No memory what so ever that I said we are done and I want her to move out. Aftger doing MC and no JADE all day she complains I am cold to her and she can't understand why I am so mean to her. Then the criticism starts, she question why there isn't as much water in the pasta bake I was cooking as when she is doing it. Then watching over me when I am putting the cheese in making sure I get to know the cheese needs to be completely sunk into the bake as it would burn if not. Then she takes over the washing up and starts kicking off as the cheese grater was to difficult to clean and I had used it incorrect. I kept my MC and no Jade all the way through until she started shouting at SG for something I can't even remember what it was as it was so trivial, I tell her to stop and GC screams at me to "shut the fuck up". Here is again where I can't manage anymore, when GC behaves and acts exactly like her. I then just left the room to avoid further problems, but then she comes in and comes to give me a hug. A hug? My blood was boiling, I can't stand her. So I walked away again and she looks completely confused wondering what she has done and then blames it all on me pretending she has done absolutely nothing. My mind is absolutely f*cked up, she can seriously not do all of that and then pretend it never happened? It's not possible, so have I made it up? Have I overreacted? I know I haven't, but why do I question myself? I even have it all recorded so I know I can listen to it all to but still.

One more week of isolation because of this Covid-19 crap, then when I am legally allowed to leave the house again I will call a lawyer and get the ball rolling.

Please tell me I am not making this up.

I don't think you're overreacting. I'm glad for you that you will be able to leave the house in a week, contact a lawyer, and get the ball rolling.

This is starting to freak me out now, since I made it clear we are done she keeps trying to come and touch me and to be affectionate. She still doesn't have a clue how to actually do it in a nice way as it is just as she is entitled to it, no regards for how I react and how I say no. She has made it up in her mind that all is good now, just because she has decided I apparently have to as well, she is talking about holidays, the future and so on. But I finished with her and said we are splitting up 2 days ago, nothing has changed and I have not told her otherwise, how can she herself think she can just decide I have now changed my mind? I am doing MC and Gray rock but I am only a human so I try to answer her when she speak to me and I try to be polite, when possible. I also know, however much she has painted me white and put my on a pedestal and at the moment worships me, she is only one split second away from something rocking her world and for her to paint me black and rip in to me as if I was some kind of turd she dragged into the house on her shoes.  I am obviously not going to provoke her to go back to being painted black, a little bit of respite is quite needed, but I could do without her touching me.

I suppose with all this, I need to make this about me and not her, I need to make sure I can go ahead with this whatever colour I am currently painted in.

Stay strong and do what is best for yourself and the kids.

I just feel so desperately sad, we have got it all, we have a fantastic house, amazing kids, enough money, great holidays, but why is it not enough? After yet again another couple of days of shouting and screaming at the kids and at me, I have had enough. It's easy to write here I am leaving her, I am just gonna divorce her, but it feels so wrong when everything should be so good. Everything is wrong, nothing is good enough, I could literally win millions on the lottery and she would complain why I had to win it the week the jackpot wasn't higher. I put my foot down and told her she is mean and asked why she is so mean all the time, she looked blank and calmly told me that I am the mean one, she has done nothing wrong and that she is sick of being the victim of the abuse from me and the children. She has now taken the car and driven off, no one knows where, this triggered me to write this. I feel so desperately sad that she rather play these games instead of growing up and enjoy life. I have long realised there is no future with her as all dreams she talks about will only come crumbling down as soon as we reach them.

Be in a good mood by the time she comes back  :evil2:

Escaping Man.   I have read every post from this and the original link that started this thread off.  I relate exactly to what you're going through.  The same patterns are there, the cycle of idealisation followed by the devaluation, the carrying on as if nothing happened the next hour or day, the feeling of living with a (unpleasant or annoyingly shallow) room-mate and not a wife.  The hope that the children will be protected and shielded from the worst of her prolonged rages that she clearly has no control over.  The unwillingness or more truthfully the absolute inability she shows in being able to accept responsibility for her abuse, or to ever even see it as abuse at all (which obviously as everyone will know here, it IS).  The absence of a normal, intimate and trusting sexual relationship.  The disgust I feel when she wants to give me hug, so soon after calling me all the worst things under the sun for several hours only the night before.  The effort involved in not being drawn into JADE type behaviour.  The desire the leave but the dilemma of not wanting to leave the children, the fear of not seeing them if I separate and all the game play that leaving might evoke.  I really feel for you man.  There is no easy solution.  My thinking is that I need to try and understand what strategies are available to me to set boundaries and keep calm at all times, and get support from friends etcetera.  I believe I can only change myself and improve my own approach.  There's no pretty way of painting it, my wife is mentally ill and I know now I cannot help her or change her or get her to see anything.  Her reality is all she sees and all she will see.  She falsely apprehends me and anyone else she is close to as an extension of herself and her own limited version of reality, divergence is seen as betrayal, disagreement is seen as criticism.  I believe she failed to fully actualise and separate as an individual at some formative stage and is stuck as a dependent infant who punishes her caregiver when the threat of abandonment is anticipated.   The abuse is her way of trying to form a bond with me to gain affirmation and security, I think she is terrified, is ruled by irrational fear, and trauma bonds in the absence of a better, healthier connection strategy.   I'm left to conclude after years of counselling, reading and reflection that she has BPD or possibly CPTSD.  Anyway, once we understand more or less what we're dealing with we need to take steps to create healthy distance and offset the worst behaviour without being drawn in emotionally.  We have to know ourselves and peacefully refuse the drama.  It's bloody difficult but we're here to hear your story while we also learn how.  I'll be looking out over your next steps as I'm seeing separation as a possibility also.   Peace.

Benny, thank you for your post. It's spot on.

Again, after her outburst she started love bombing me, talking about how happy we are and the future etc. It took her less than 48 hours, then the rage within her couldn't stay away. She went to minor injuries with one of the kids that had complained about pain in the foot, of course it was a queue and it took them 3 hours to get seen too. This took them past her set time for her evening meal and wind down, 7pm noone can disturb her, she locks her into the lounge with her food and her tv. But it was 7.30pm and the kids started playing up a bit, but when she sits down everybody needs to be quiet and not disturb her. It ended up with her running out of the lounge chasing the child she went to minor injuries with and screaming and eventually hitting her over the arm. Not acceptable. Not at all. I tell her it's not acceptable, and my daughter complains she hits her all the time. Not acceptable. Wife then tries to justify her behaviour putting all the blame on the child. Not acceptable. Then apparently the other child sees her starting writing on her own stomach, asking what she is doing and getting a mouthful its none of her business. This morning I am told by the child (who apparently made it her business to find out what she was writing) that she was writing all names she is being called and really again vicitimise herself. After all this drama that continued all morning I offered the kids to walk them to school, this eneded up in another row as if I asked to walk them it meant I had a problem with her as she was going to drive them. We all told her we just want to walk and she can come as well, but she couldn't come as she wasn't invited properly. Not acceptable.

I think I started to have a wobble and to give it a few weeks to see if she could change, she gave me less than 48 hours to prove she can't. I am almost completely Out of the FOG so not to bothered by her drama anymore, but when it affects the children I am bothered. They deserve better and I am going to make sure they get better.

Your wife's abuse of your children is where she crosses a huge red line.  I don't know what country you are in and I know the courts discriminate and often favour the mother over the father, but if you have solid evidence you may be granted full protective custody.  Might be worth gathering as much evidence as possible in this regard and quietly, and in confidence, taking your situation to a solid legal professional.  Trouble is, every avenue carries risk, the authorities are biased and social services can often get over involved and cause more harm than good.  Do you have family who can have the children stop over to give them a break and a sense of how things are done in a different environment on a regular basis?  I recall your sharing how you get times away with them on your own terms.  I suppose so long as you're sharing the same house with the wife the next best thing is to take advantage of getting space away with them as often as possible.  It's been a great strength to me to be able to have trusted friends and family that I can share the reality with, I hope you and your children have this sort of support and affirmation also, otherwise the gaslighting can be too much if we're stuck with it in isolation.  We need to be congruent with someone and counter the personality disordered individual who works against that.  That's the benefit of us coming here isn't it, it's keeping us sane and grounded.

I have pulled her up on what she did yesterday and told her that is not acceptable, she is now playing the massive victim as I am so cold to her and that I am not speaking to her etc etc. Since the event yesterday I have been cold towards her, applied MC and GR, but she still can't see that it is caused by her behaviour. Apparently we had such a good time yesterday and now I am just cold, she can't take me blowing hot and cold. My gob is literally on the floor, I had lunch with her yesterday and engaged in listening to her monologues, that was great for her apparently, didn't give me much as we only spoke about her stuff (again), but she then rage and expect me to just accept it. I can't. Now she has given me an ultimatum, either I stop blowing hot and cold or else I need to set her free. With setting her free I am apparently supposed to just gibe her half of everything we own and let her go. Fine by me, but I know it won't happen. And, I am just getting seriously pi$$ed off that she projects it all on me and that despite she is the one abusing us all I am the one blamed for being the abuser.

Funny bit (not really fun) but when I was still in the FOG she cold rage at me and then hide in her bedroom doing the silent treatment to me for days despite me begging her to forgive me for something I hadn't done.

You're absolutely right that this abusive behavior toward the children is totally unacceptable. There is plenty of other abuse going on as well but society doesn't necessarily acknowledge all types of abuse. But it acknowledges that type, and it is a red line.

I am crying. She has really done it. After I pulled her up on her abuse last week she has done all she can to turn the kids against me, and boy has she succeeded. I am so angry. I decided I need to get out within days, probably without the kids as they are against me at the moment. I really can't understand how anyone can be so evil and nasty as she is, why turn your own children against their dad when still living together? Why at all? All lies, nothing she has said to them is true, but they lap up her golden period she is giving to them. I can't say anything to defend myself to the kids because she has already laid the ground. I have to go, and I have to go this week. This is killing me.

I'm sorry your wife's behavior is getting worse. Do what you need to keep yourself safe.

Bro:

I so totally understand where you are coming from on every single front.   It's so hard when they decide it's time to cause mammoth drama and raise major issues.   It's annoying, not fun, and we don't realize it but it's abusive.

Thoughts and prayers.

J

I'm so sorry. Wishing you strength to get to a better place.

I'm glad you are getting yourself into a better situation.  Do you think the kids will be safe with her alone?  I dont know their ages or their ability to speak for themselves.  I was thinking if they are still very young, it may be difficult to make a case for custody based on her abuse if they are left with her.  I am 100% not trying to make a difficult situation even harder for you.  Just something to discuss with you attorney when planning your exit strategy

Thanks for all wonderful messages.

Bunnyme: The kids are preteens and yes they can stand up for them selves when needed, but my worry is the emotional damage she is causing to them. The physical assaults she does is mostly harmless physically but emotionally it scares them. I think the most dangerous thing is for them to see how she treats me and therefor think it is OK to treat people (future boyfriends, husbands etc) the same. I need to end this cycle of abuse now, it's not something I want my kids to see. Today she has tried to get me to get back on with her as it's all my fault that she has given me the silent treatment since Friday. Sure I have turned off myself but I don't particularly enjoy speaking to someone that slags me off behind my back and is turning my children against me. If I am strong enough I will contact a solicitor tomorrow, I hope I can do it as this is getting worse and worse and worse. 

You're going to have better and worse days with her. But a better day will not last.

Consider seeing the solicitor no matter what - not as an ironclad decision as to what you will do, but just to open up your options.

If she is treating you nicer tomorrow, well, good. You might be less frazzled meeting the solicitor.

If she treats you awful tomorrow, well, let it be your fuel to see the solicitor, regardless of how upset/tired/depressed you feel.

Taking the first step is not irrevocable.

Thanks for your encouraging messages. I didn't have the energy to contact anyone on Monday, she then started the love bombing yesterday so I thought just let this be a rest before doing anything. Didn't take her more than today until she kicked off again, he mum was here for a visit. Her mum is probably the most manipulative evil person I met and my wife tries all she can to please her and to pretend everything is perfect. So kids start playing up a bit as kids always do, wife gets annoyed and starts telling them off. They play up some more, trying to get some kind of interest from the 2 so called adults with no results so play up some more. I was in my office working at this time whilst they all were in the garden, one of the kids come in to complain that mum is embarrassing her in front of grandmother by telling her off for everything. Finally other kid comes in and tell me that they have decided that they are having mums meal in the night and mine tomorrow so I am dismissed, stupid me thought that meant I was actually not needed. So I got my gym kit on and went out and told them see you later I am going to the gym, wife raise the eyebrows (her standard "I am not happy") and starts complaining. I tell her that I was told she was cooking their meal (it was just some f*c*i*g fish cakes to heat in the owen) and she blows it, child who told me this quickly change the story to frame me to get out of problems (I totally get that) and screams more and more about it. Ends up with mum hitting her again, MIL happily watch on and backs my wife. At this point I lose it and tell her I am not accepting her hitting the kids, which she obviously disagree with and in the end storms out together with MIL. She then comes back half an hour later and thinks I would be on her side, then kicks off again screaming the house down calling me an animal and then telling me she is leaving and demands half of her money. I promise her to get her the money as soon as I can but I obviously can't get it there on the spot, she kicks off I am trying to con her and she wont leave until I have the money. She also start going on about going down the bank locking our accouts so I can'Tt get anything out without her agreeing. Then another turn and she walks around the house being the big massive victim, still nasty to the child who in her eyes started it all.

I am so ready to end this, she needs out and she needs to not see the kids again. Not sure what the laws regarding voice recordings are here, need to look it up, but caught her both hitting our kid and then also admitting it.

I also need to give myself a big tap on the shoulder for never reacting to this and the kids really appreciated that, she baited and baited and I did no JADE.

Well done!!!

And that recording may be valuable.

Btw the thing about the money, she was hoping you'd get on your knees and apologize to win her back. And felt betrayed when you didn't care to.

Good sir, your wife sounds very, very disturbed. You need to get help and lots of it. No shame in asking for help. Commit to it, embrace it, your children need you to be an advocate. Sound the trumpets and call in the cavalry. You were right to start looking for a solicitor.

There is a name for turning your children against you by lying about you, in the US it's called Parental Alienation Syndrome and it's illegal. When you look for an attorney make sure you find one that understands what that is. Do an online search for High Conflict Institute Bill Eddy.  I think that site will have a LOT of helpful info regarding divorcing someone as disturbed as your wife.  The High Conflict Institute might have an attorney list, but I'm not sure, and they may only be US-based. It wouldn't hurt to check, though. People with personality disorders have will have some predictable behaviors if you know what to look for...and chinks in their armor. This site will help you with that.

Read books about personality disorders, so you understand them well enough to navigate this divorce with your children. When you have been able to get out and aren't so unhappy (understandably so) you could take on educating your children about personality disorders ***without naming your wife*** (Parental Alienation Syndrome I mentioned before). They have to see it for themselves. It will help them in the future as well, in their own relationships because in your household this crazy behavior was normalized.

I would open a separate checking account in your name only and start putting money in it so you have something to start over. Organize all important documents for you and your children (and pets if the kids have beloved pets!) and store them in a safety deposit box in your name only.  Find another place to live. Get a therapist for you and a separate one for your children. You need to de-enmesh yourself. Stop hoping she'll change, she won't.

I'm divorcing someone that I don't think is as bad, but I had hoped that our divorce would be easy, but it's not. I think it's going to really suck. But I am committed to ending the marriage and luckily, he also wants a divorce badly. I am even more committed that our children come out of it unscathed. I also know that this is going to be a life long ordeal. He was mistakenly thinking he could indulge in his distortion campaigns against me with our children undisturbed after they turn 18, but that will not be the case, sadly, for him.

I wish you all the best. Take care of yourself, and take care of those children!!

When you really don't think it can get any worse......

She started shouting at me, calling me names, calling me a liar, calling me everything under the sun. Daughter comes down decides to join in on her sides and starts shouting and swearing at me, I am apparently a f*ck*r and the worst dad in the world. uNPDw suddenly starts believing her over me for the incident yesterday and they both stand and scream at me, I am supposed to pack my bag cause I don't belong in this country, I am too fat, I am ugly, I am the worst person in the world etc. Ends up with ScapeGoat getting a total panic attack of all this shouting and I have to take her to A&E as she cant breathe. She gets better for every minute away from the house, doctors at A&E cant find any problems with her so sent home after 2 hours. Home and she is reasonable calm and the shouting from uNPDw and GC starts and SG has another fit. Was also told by GC that I apparently has been beating her up when she was younger and that she will make sure I am basically put in prison if I go against her mum, all obviously being fed to her by her mum.

At least the idea of divorce and leaving her is clear as daylight.   

Quote from: escapingman on July 07, 2021, 03:55:37 AM
SG sat down with me in calm and told me how wonderful and calm it is without her mum in the house.....

Here's your sign.

I'm really sorry you face this. I've seen your story on the other boards and my heart goes out to you.

I'm so sorry, EM. This sounds miserable for the whole family. I feel for you, really I do.

Who encourages a child to scream and berate their parent?? A deeply disordered and angry soul, that's who. What happened to teaching children that other people are deserving of respect and it's just plain bad manners to treat anyone that way? I get the child isn't in a position to speak up, given mom's behavior but still. S/he's learning that earns mom's approval and is going to lead to a host of other bullying issues if it's not checked. A child allowed to treat a parent that way will naturally do the same to others - other children and adults, teachers, etc. Maybe once you're not living in the same home you can set up ground rules for "how we treat people in our lives - we can disagree with others without being disagreeable." They'll need to see boundaries in action and consequences for behavior, that we're all responsible for our own behavior regardless of mom's choices.

When you file for divorce, make sure one of the first things you negotiate is putting the kids in therapy.  (If they aren't already)  Your PDw will have a really hard time objecting to that once the courts are watching.  With the GC being brainwashed so badly, it could be very helpful if an outside professional is talking with the kids.  A good therapist could help smoke out these kinds of issues, could help if you need to go for full custody someday, and will give the kids a neutral party to vent their frustrations to.

I can tell you from my situation that even though they don't say it directly to me, the kids' therapists know my exPDw is the problem parent and they do a great job coaching the kids through things.

Having to take your kid to A&E is a pretty critical situation  :'(

 :yeahthat: It's not going to be easy for them, being pulled back and forth. Do whatever you can to be sure they have someone to talk to so it's not all you vs mom.

Keep recording the PD and gc.....keep documenting the trauma sg child suffers.  Make it count for something.  Don't let the suffering be for nothing.

Even if you can't use the recordings in court you can share with your attorney to help him understand the situation.

It's important to craft the story you share about your situation according to your evidence.

He with the best evidence typically wins. 

Be mindful of how you appear/sound in recordings.  Avoid appearances if baiting and egging on pd behaviors.  Always be calm, consistent dad focused on the children.

The children.

The children.

Always go back to the children.

Keep your evidence safe....maybe at a friend's home or hidden in the trunk?  Safe.

Good luck,

Thank you for all your amazing messages.

I have taken a huge step and contacted a solicitor  :aaauuugh:, I am now waiting for them to get back to me.

 :applause:

Remember to speak about Stbx with compassion so you aren't punished.  Holding the PD with compassion in speech and demeanor shows the court and it's officers you're level and capable of putting the children first...... OR..... that you're capable of NOT sacrificing your kids to the God's of divorce court hate and vengeance. 

Speak facts without judgement.  Speak without expectation for what listeners must DO or FEEL. This allows them to come to their own conclusions, IME.  If you tell them what they must do, feel, think..... it can backfire, IME.  People are funny sometimes. Ego tends to trump what's best for involved children, IME.  Being careful not to step on toes..... your attorney's, the Judge's, involved "forensic T's" who may be TERRIBLE and easily manipulated..... you have to watch yourself all the time, IME.

A good attorney should be able to clue you in about your Judge..... what they typically DO in divorce cases..... how they rule.... if they're fair, stupid or willfully ignorant, etc.  Sometimes you find out who your Judge is then find an attorney that Judge LOVES to plead your case.  Sometimes you go in with an unknown, super competent attorney in that county and present a bang on case with outstanding evidence. 

Whatever you do, fire an incompetent attorney you can't truts, bc trusting  your attorney is very important, IME.

An attorney is a tool...and maybe like a pony.. you hire one, feed it, pet it and ride that pony into divorce court with full comittment...... commit or fire, but get solid in your choice. 

It helps to seek out HIGH CONFLICT attorneys when dealing with PDs.

I found ex prosecutors had more information about dealing with PDs than regular attorneys.... esp the expensive top dogs in their field attorneys. They seem to be ignorant, lazy and more invested in making their lives easier than doing what's best for you.  For instance, they don't like to add domestic violence to a divorce, for whatever reason, IME. They said it was bc it "added time" to the divorce, but I found it just extended things and my PD ran circles around them..... outstrategizd, lied, cheated and stole with complete abandon until my second attorney admitted there was nothing he or the courts could do to stop him or any truly committed criminal in the court system.  It was demoralizing and there was much dissapointment on my end, bc I'd mistakenly believed the civil court system was in some way fair.

The truth is... the court system is set up to punish everyone taking up the court's time.  They desire everyone to setttle and stay the hell out of the courtrooms.  They don't take into account the fact sane logical people with children DO settle out of court.  PDs are pathologically unable, typically, to agree to ANYTHING ever and that's the only reason we enter a coutroom, IME.

It's problmeatic when the Courts punish the struggling parent invested in protecting and shielding the children.  You HAVE to have evidence to show the attorneys and court what you're up against and it's easier to get it before the PD knows you're recording and gathering evidence, IME.

Good luck,

Solicitor contacted me late on Friday to call them which I am planning to do tomorrow. At the same time she is trying her best to pretend its all OK and keeping her temper, not even a proper hover going on so not to bothered. She just invited me out for a meal later next week, couldn't think of anything worse so had to as kindly as possible say I think about it. Yesterday I was away on a sports event with the kids, we had asked her a couple of times earlier in the week if she wanted to come but she only answered with silence and grumbles. So just when we were about to leave she says she wants to come, not ready at all but she just drops the bomb, all of us just told her she is not invited anymore and then we left. Day was great as she wasn't spoiling it.

Today I have been out with SG as she wanted to speak to me, I am amazed how clued up she is for only being little. She asked me if she can see a therapist, she needs to speak to someone about how mum treats her. She also told me to stop believing in the promises that stbxw is making about being nice and changing as she just cant keep them. This conversation was very good to have, to really realize that I need to do this not only for me but for the kids.

Wish me luck, I think I might need it. 

I hope you can find a therapist for SG and she can go back to being a kid.

Good luck  :thumbup:

Good luck to you, we're all in your corner!
I just wanted to recommend a book that Kris Godinez recommends on her podcast. (If you haven't listened to her, try it, she's great!)
It's called Splitting, and it's written by Randy Krueger (sp?)  and Bill Eddy.
It's helpful advice for someone leaving a difficult marriage.
Again, good luck. Stay strong, and God bless you and your children

Quote from: escapingman on August 08, 2021, 04:04:40 PM
Solicitor contacted me late on Friday to call them which I am planning to do tomorrow. At the same time she is trying her best to pretend its all OK and keeping her temper, not even a proper hover going on so not to bothered. She just invited me out for a meal later next week, couldn't think of anything worse so had to as kindly as possible say I think about it. Yesterday I was away on a sports event with the kids, we had asked her a couple of times earlier in the week if she wanted to come but she only answered with silence and grumbles. So just when we were about to leave she says she wants to come, not ready at all but she just drops the bomb, all of us just told her she is not invited anymore and then we left. Day was great as she wasn't spoiling it.

Today I have been out with SG as she wanted to speak to me, I am amazed how clued up she is for only being little. She asked me if she can see a therapist, she needs to speak to someone about how mum treats her. She also told me to stop believing in the promises that stbxw is making about being nice and changing as she just cant keep them. This conversation was very good to have, to really realize that I need to do this not only for me but for the kids.

Wish me luck, I think I might need it.

The kids really can get it.  It's hopeful that gc and sg uninvited PDmom.... not just you.

Remember, STBX is unstable.... she's trying to find ways to feel OK, even though OK isn't something she can find or take or have. It can happen inside her or not at all.  She doesn't get that so she's blaming and fuming and showing you how disordered she feeeeels.... like a toddler behaves, really.

Expect it.  Your sc child understands well enough.... that's the very best  PD mother CAN do. She's broken or she'd already have done better.... she can't.  SG child is very wise for age, I think.

GC falls into line with PDmom, I think, bc she knows you CAN change and perhaps enough to calm PDmom enough, for a while, for GC to FEEEEEL OK too.  It's not fair, but it makes sense that she asks things of you, she knows she can't ask of mother, bc mom just can't. 

Also, mom's love is conditional.  Yours is not.  Kids tend to be harder on the parent who loves them always and forever, no mmatter what, IME.  We always forgive. We're always there. 

I do feel we do the children a disservice if we allow them to mistreat us without putting boundarie and consequences in place, sans emotions. 

IME, the kids do better if I'm doing better..... putting boundaries in place and calmly enforcing them without any drama or emotional upheaval.  Just calm, steady, consistent mom, doing what mom does....... never letting their upset pull me off center... as I can manage it, but also not allowing abusive treatment.  You can remove yourself, physically, state you'll speak to them when they can be respectful, then enforce that stated boundary.

Set a time to come back and have that discussion, perhaps, but I wouldn't allow the abuse UNLESS I was recording it.

It's not healthy for anyone, IME.

Good luck with the attorney.  I wish I'd have only brought up the facts I could PROVE.... if I could do it all over again.

Just blurting every disordered thing the PD does makes us sound unhinged, IME.  Particularly if we can't PROVE it's what they're doing AND... why would anyone put up with it? They sometimes as what we did to MAKE the PD act that way... sometimes they want to know what's wrong with us that we stayed,. etc.

Remember to think of it as an opportunity to inform your listener.  Stay calm and don't get snarky or frustrated.

Everything is about the children, the children the children.

Tell the kids everyone will be OK, even if mom and dad living apart... still love the kids.... everyone will be OK.  The kids have teir jobs... adults have theirs. Adults will handle their stuff, even if mom is behaving in sad ways and asking the kids to FEEL for her, do for her, take on her responsiilities...... mom will be OK, even if the kids take care of their jobs, which is the rigth thing to do.

I hope you find a good trauma informed therapist for you and your sg child.  If the gc is willing, a good T for her would be spot on too.

Breathe.  Remember you're safe and you're going to do everything possible to keep your kids safe.  Don't worry about what you can't control. Instead focus on what you CAN control.

All will be well.... and....
even if it's not OK....
it's OK.

Deep breaths, I did it, I called the lawyers. I spoke to them and for the first time ever I told someone about the abuse. I feel like a big weight has gone by just telling someone. Next step is to book a one hour consultation to discuss next steps, as this will start incurring cost I just need to land in this first as I know when I do this there will be no return. I am pretty sure about the next steps and my options, but I just need someone else to be there by my side and do it for me - even if it will cost me thousands.

At the moment uNPDw is calm and is trying to creep back into the good books, it gives me a bit of a respite but I know as soon as I would cave in just a bit the next outburst will be just around the corner. I will take this slowly and keep my eyes on the end goal.

I admire your bravery.

You just do what you have to do. The hardest part to me would be standing clear of what amounts to intermittent reinforcement - no one is all good or all bad, or you wouldn't be where you now are. You have history and a certain amount of consistency behind you, don't forget that.

It might be a good idea to start (if you haven't already) documenting everything - names dates times situations etc. BUT don't keep or access that at home or computer where it can be read or tampered by others. When the heat is on it can be hard to recall specifics or even the frequency. I think there's a certain amount of self preservation too, so we dont meltdown out of sheer frustration.

Just keep breathing, and do what you can as you can. This isnt likely to be a short or easy process, but we're here with you.

I started to journal and take voice recordings a year ago. I am not sure I would have believed myself without them, but now I can just go back and listen to what happened and now the abuse actually happened. To start I did it for myself to make sure I knew what was going on, now I am wondering if I can use the recordings legally as they really would be valuable for me.

But I know as soon as I actually push the "divorce" button all hell will break loose, I am scared of that. I don't want to stay with her, but I don't want her to try her best to take me down. But, I have no idea how she actually will react in the end, this despite her threating me with ruining my life if divorcing her. I just don't know but it's worth the risk as nothing can be as bad as this.

Hello!   I saw a quote online that I thought I would share.     "It is ok to be sad after you have made the right decision." 

Stay strong and keep your eyes on the future.   You are not alone.   

Quote from: escapingman on August 10, 2021, 05:20:25 PM
But I know as soon as I actually push the "divorce" button all hell will break loose, I am scared of that. I don't want to stay with her, but I don't want her to try her best to take me down. But, I have no idea how she actually will react in the end, this despite her threating me with ruining my life if divorcing her. I just don't know but it's worth the risk as nothing can be as bad as this.

It cannot have been said enough: plan for the worst and have a plan that protects you, your stuff, and your money. Make sure to do everything legal and above board, but have a scorched earth response in mind when you plan. I know a person who packed surreptitiously for days and -- after the spouse left for work -- emptied out before lunch time and was gone and safe before saying a word about divorce.

Quote from: sad_dog_mommy on August 11, 2021, 06:33:41 AM
Hello!   I saw a quote online that I thought I would share.     "It is ok to be sad after you have made the right decision." 

Great quote, and very true.  Another thought for you, this helped me get through my divorce. 

Sometimes in life you're only presented with bad options, and your only choice is to choose the least worst option in front of you.

Research your State's recording laws.  You can always let your attorney listen, even if you can't use them as evidence in court.  Attorney's talk.  They talk to clerks. Clerks and other attorneys talk to Judges.  You just might find your Judge hears about it, even if he/she can't listen.

Make sure you're done with recording before letting stbx know you're recording, kwim? Once she knows, she'll limit your opportunities to record, IME.

Get the most important papers out of the house.  Maybe leave BEFORE filing for divorce and take the SG child with you.  You can do that BEFORE filing.  Once you file, everything changes (for you,) bc you follow the rules.  It's likely stbx will break every rule and law (and likely get away with it) so do what you can ahead to limit  the chaos manufacture. 

Important pictures?  Make them safe. Family heirlooms? Make them safe.  Your child's favorite clothing?  Make them safe.  You get the picture. 

I agree with the poster who said leaving when the STBX isn't there to drum up drama. 

You can take your child to Therapy now and get that started before Divorce begins. That way, it's one of the things in place and Judges like to keep the status quo once divorce begins.  Easier to do it now, for sure, IME.

Do you have a place to go, if you leave?  Living with relatives or good friends will improve your chances of having witnesses around if the PD goes nuts on you.  Maybe witnesses will help you stay safe.  I do find that kind of support is helpful in ways you can't understand till you're IN it.

Some States allow audio recordings.  Some allow video,but no audio.  Check yours out.

Don't let the STBX pull you off center. Expect crazy behaviors and plan to remain level and consistent,no matter what. Just keep reminding yourself this is what PDs DO.  Don't expect different and you won't be surprised or dissapointed.

Good luck,

I don't know a thing about legalities but "take SG child with you," that has to be checked with your solicitor/attorney. But aside from that, I would treat both kids the same, don't just take SG and abandon GC. If you can take any kids, take both, or, I dunno, offer to take both (tricky here, even aside from legality this is "choose between mom and dad" and they know they will PAY for it).

I hope you get both pf them, whether primary or sole.

Once divorce is filed..... everything shuts down for the parent following the rules. The parent who does what's best for the children.  The parent who won't go outside the rules, bc bc bc....

so many reasons to give the PD a leg up, to cut the PD slack, to listen to the attorney even thought the PD won't listen to theirs.

Once the divorce is filed...... everything stays the same.  If a parent leaves without the children, or....the child begging for a T bc... scapegoated...... then that parent will be called a desserter, bc that's what the PD and their attorney will say. Just good business in divorce court. 

The sg needs a t.  The sc and father need an advocate who can stand up in court and testify to the facts in this case, or.... the facts they can prove....... always try to stick to the facts one can prove in court.  Keeps one from looking unhinged, IME.  Spewing PD facts, without proof, makes us look unhinged, IME.

The sc child will be able to tell a T what their experience is.  Being screamed at by a parent and sibling, daily, is a violence, IME. 

Leaving a child IN that environment will bring up questions like....

"If it was so bad, why in heaven would you leave a child behind to be screamed at and abused as you're allaging, Mr. Father Man?"

He'll have to field.... "Why would you stay so long?"
And... "What did you DO to the PD to make her behave that way?"

But why not take GC too, then?

I wouldn't have a cats chance in hell to take GC as she is brainwashed and is picking her mum over me every day of the week at the moment.

I just think it's important to tell her you want her. Even if she says no.

She knows that, she is great with me when her mum is nowhere near us.

uNPDw soon to be X is doing some kind of light version of a golden period, really gives me some breathing space. It feel weird but I know she can't keep it together and  know she will get into a rage for some minor thing any day. I am using the time to get my thoughts together and to try to make a plan. For every time the abuse cycle turns "red" I am one step closer to be out, and I am close now. I just need to get out of the wishful thinking that she would leave, she won't. I know that but I still hope.

I didn't get a very good feel for the lawyer I spoke to, the firm connected me with a junior lawyer which is the least I need. I got me in the right direction but I will try another firm to see if that gives a better feel.

You need to believe in your attorney.  Don't hire one you have no cofidence in.

In fact, hiring a family law attorney who SAYS they specialize in high conflict cases is a start.

Hiring an ex District Attorney is a better, start, IME.

Sometimes you file your case, pull a Judge THEN make your final attorney selection.... BEFORE things get too hairy.

I changed after filing my case, was let down over and over by my attorney, fired him then interviewed other attorneys. The ex DA (I tried to hire) told me he'd hire X attorney to represent him IN FRONT OF the judge I pulled, bc that Judge just LOVED that attorney,bc that attorney got him through law school.

If you ask enough people for their opinions.... ask who'd they'd hire if it was them or their child in need of an attorney, they'll often tell you WHO you should hire and why.

This isn't a straight forward process.  It won't be over quickly.  You won't enjoy it.  Prepare for a long drawn out slog and don't cancel ONE SINGLE COURTDATE or HEARING until you have a signed, stamped and filed AGREEMENT in your grubby little hand, bc that's the only thing you can sort of control in all this..... not allowing the PD to drag this out for years.

My second divorce attorney said the worst cases involve a litigant who doesn't want to get divorced and for some reason the PDs tend to NOT want a divorce, IME. 

Expect chaos manufacture beyond your wildest expectations.

Be super respectful to your attorney, whoever you end up hiring.  Tell a story you can PROVE... that makes sense to people NOT involved with PDs, bc everyone needs your story to "square up" as they say.  Don't blather your entire story, without being able to prove it, bc it won't make sense to anyone and you need this to make sense to your attorney, IME.

You need your attorney on your side and esp on your children's side.

Eventuall, IME, the PD will tick your attorney off and they'll work much harder for you than normally.  THIS can be a turning point, so make sure YOU don't tick your attorney off, bc they will satotage you.  My second attorney told me that too.  My ASPD stbx's attorney sent us forged documents, behind ASPD's back, and I'd consider that sabotage. It happens.

You might do better with an older war horse, about to retire female attorney if you're in a small town.  One who rules the roost.  It's different everywhere. What you don't want is to look like you're ganging up on poor little stbx wife with another guy, IME.  Always always speak about your stbx with compassion.  Mentally ill people, we've made children with, deserve compassion.  Tell your story without expectation. Allow your listener to come to their own conclusion.  Just the facts.... you can prove.  Always come back to the children, the children, the children. 

Good luck,

I really got a temporary setback in my process with speaking to the lawyer. I first had to speak to their customer care team and tell them all the background which included the abuse. They were then allocating me to the best suited lawyer which in this case was a junior lawyer that when I looked her up on LinkedIn had only been working for 2 months. When connected to her the only thing she was interested in was to book me in for an initial meeting not giving anything away other some generic advice showing she had not listened or been briefed on my case at all. I have found a new local firm where the family law solicitors seems to be much older senior women, I think I will try to contact them.

The crazymaking has really got out of hand and I really don't know what to do next. She really doesn't handle my MC and GR well and every time I reply to her she complains about me not having the correct tone of my voice. Yesterday she switched between screaming and shouting, to love bombing to crying being the biggest victim ever born. I am not sure how anyone can cry their eyes out and then 1 minute later be talking like nothing happened and then back to crying again.

I went out with SG yesterday and she complained about not being able to be near her mum and that she can't stand when she is nice as she can see it's false. She didn't even want to eat yesterday as she said she was so stressed when her mum is near her.

In all of this uNPDw is pressuring me for going out for a romantic meal, complaining when I say no. How could I even remotely want to go out after every insult she threw at me during her last outburst? And even if I would wanna go, I have told her I don't think we can leave the kids on the own in the evening as SG is far to little (she hates being on her own and GC would just ignore her and sit with her tablet).

Anyway, there is no return really it's only a matter of when. I just need to find a solicitor I can trust and to get some sound advice and make a plan.

You might try asking round the courthouse..... file clerks and attorneys standing in the hallway...... ask them who THEY would hire if they were in your district.  Ask them who handles high conflict divorces.  Listen.  Go ask those people. 

90% research.
10% execution.

Once you've done everything you can do, relax into the process, which will be imperfect, IME.

Sometimes the wrong attorney leads to the right attorney and you just have to release outcome early in the process, IME. 

I hired one of the top attorneys, only to find out he didn't know much about PDs.  He didn't want to include abuse in the initial divorce complaint, "bc it only added time to the process."  It was clear he was outclassed and outmenauvered before the first document was filed..... and my PD hired a nice attorney.  I guess I'm saying..... your PD, and perhaps her attorney, will be lying, cheating and stealing throughout this process.  You'll be following the rules.

It's helpful if your attorney is AWARE these things happen. IF you attorney understands and gets it. 

If your attorney continues to come up stupid...... not understanding basic things you've said.  Asking stupid questions over and over again, they better have a really good IN with the court to justify you putting up with them,bc it's expensive to your mental health.  You need to use your attornye like a tool......
you hire your attorney, pet them, feed them, saddle them up with good evidence and then you ride them into the courtroom, meaning you have to stop doubting and complaining, at a point, and get on with the process so being choosy, as you can, up front, is imperative, IME.

Some of the smarter attorneys are the most difficult to deal with, IME.  I experiened them as PD, tied up in ego, willing to do favors for opposing counsel at my expense.... to a point.  Once the PD ticks your attorney off, makes them look stupid for holding very strong views opposing your POV...... THEN they get fired up.  THEN they focus hard and start working for you like their ego depends on it.

Sometimes you can intuit things like.... your young attorney clerked for opposing counsel and feels and acts like a flunky TO opposing counsel. That happened to a friend of mine in divorce court.  It truly did.  She should have fired her attorney BUT she was busy being angry at her church family for holding an intervention, bc they felt she was out of control in her divorce, which she was. 

One thing your last post that struck me...... bc it reminded me of ME in my divorce..... was your SG child despising her mother's fake nice behavior.  You being very opposed to a romantic meal, bc the PD was screaming and posturing as a victim then yelling and saying abusive things.....

None of that matters, really. 

Your nose and SG's nose.... they're on the pebble. You have no emotional distance to help you through this, IME.

You NEEEEEED some emotional distance.... some ability to SEE your situations from higher up.... nose off the pebble..... so you can see the entire field, the other rocks, the trees, the field and the ponds..... to add spaciousness so you can get yourselves otu of fight or flight mode.

Fight or flight mode means you'e living in survival mode..... your frontal lobes shut down and there's no access to higher thinking, logic, problem solving creativity, which is going to help you through this.

Right now you're where I was..... just trying to get through every day and this is BEFORE you fire the first shot and file the divorce.

I did that after a threat was issued by the PD, which means I flew downtown in a panic with a box of evidence and filed the divorce without thinking ahead. 

You want to think this through a bit, IME.

In the US we have to keep things the way they are once we file the divorce.  Right now you can touch bank accounts, move out, start seeing new therapists for you and SG...... once you file, that might change, bc maybe you'll be punished for taking SG child out of the house and leaving.  Maybe the Judge will punish you for doing certain things AFTER you file. 

Here's another tip about hiring attorneys...... any attorney you interview, in any way, is an attorney your wife can't hire. You can make sure she doesn't hire the biggest baddest most connected attorneys IF you interview them..... even a short phone call with an attorney will end her ability to hire that attorney.

Back to getting your nose off the pebble...... there are many things to worry about OUTSIDE your stbx's disordered behavior. You've determined you can't live with her. Her behaviors are detrimental to both children.   You will be the good enough parent who mitigates the harm, bc you can't protect them from the harm.......
how will you mitigate that harm?

That's the pebble you should shift your attention to, IME.  THAT pebble is IN THE FIELD, along with your stbx's behavior,which   is impossible to stop focusing on right now, I understand, but findinga way to shift focus, you must, in my honest experience, bc YOU are your and your childrens' biggest and best resource.

Your choices will influence how much visitation and what kind of visitation are written into an Order. 

Sit back, breathe 10 times slowly..... 4 seconds in.... hold 4 seconds..... out 4 seconds...... and check your body. Is there pain or tension? Put your hand on it and name it.  Tight?  Burning? A band of tension?  Name it and give it a number from 1 - 10.  1 is almost gone. 10 is almost unbearable.

  Breathe 10X while focusing on your pain/tesion.
4 seconds in.  Hold 4 seconds. Out 4 seconds.

Check the pain/tension.  If it's improving.... the number going down, repeat the breathing excercise till it stops improving or the pain goes away.  I breathe space AROUND and into the pain, creating spaciousness around it..... sometimes I picture the space around me as I do so.... above me, below me, beside me.  You can notice the sights and smells around you as you check your number 1-10.... the smells around you.

IF the pain is unchanged, shift focus to a part of your body that's neutrual or pleasant..... focus on it while going through the 10 breathes. 
4 seonds in.  Hold 4 seconds.  Out 4 seconds.

Did that help the physical distress?  If so, repeat till it's gone or stops getting better.

NOW you're ready to think down the road about what you and your children need in order to keep your sanity and protect your children as best you can.

THAT's the game here.That's what should be taking your attention and I must tell you....
once you file that divorce your STBX will escalate her chaos manufacture.  I don't know how far she'll go. Perhaps you do, once you've calmed yourself and have access to your frontal lobe.... ask yourself what you think your stbx pd will do once you file.

How far do you believe she'll go? Scorched earth policy is where the PD will blow herself up, the kids... everything..... posessions included, in order to destroy you.  Not all PDs have a scorched earth policy. 

When you ask yourself this..... listen to what your instincts tell you.  Believe it.  Put a pin in it and trust yourself.  That kind of information will guide your choices. 

In the meantime, what is required to attain a temporary restraining order where you live.  Do you feel you'll need one?  What do you have to show the court? I still don't know what kind of evidence is allowed where you live.  Do you?

Getting yourself away from the PD, and taking your child/ren out of that situation seems prudent to me, but I'm not there, in your shoes. 

I should think a good trauma informed therapist for yourself and the sg would be imperative so you can learn and begin practicing coping strategies and tools to HELP you get through this.

There's going to be more trauma...... a good T can help you mitigate it for yourself.

The T you choose for your child/ren should have experience testifying in court, be competent and willing to be an advocate for your children. Not all Ts can DO that.  Some are cowards, same as attorneys can sometimes be cowards.  I had to keep bucking up my childre's T, bc she was scared of the PDs and would flip flop after they talked to her.  She was scared.  She was a TERRIBLE witness, but she was our pony and so we fed her, petted her and rode her into court... such as it was.  I wish I knew then what I know now. 

Good forensic experts/therapists speak without bias. They know the game. They have to appear without bias and they have to appear helpful and calm always.... never getting defensive or snarky.  Never avoiding questions, bc they don't like the answer.
You should think about how they communicate with you and picture them in a courtroom during your initial discussions... you;ll want to interview many before deciding who you'll hire. 

Look at reviews.  Ask around the courtroom.... who is considered a good forensic T... who testifies in that courthouse and who is respected and good at their job?  Interview the people who's names you receive. 

Having as many advocates in place is HEL:PFUL in court. 

Who else can be an advocate, witness, babysitter, protector, wall between you and the STBX when/if she goes on a rampage.... who can film it, record it, keep the door locked between you, call the police, speak to the stbx in your place to calm her down, if she can be calmed?

Your game plan should put distance between you and the PD, iME.  You can't think straight when she's in your space. That's what she wants and that's going to get worse one you file.

She'll interrupt your sleep, call you at all hours during work, show up at your work place, flip and fop with the victim/screaming/abusive behaviors you can't stand now..... it will get worse.

Where do you want to be when that happens? As I mentioned in another post, maybe moving in with family or friends is better than moving out on your own?  Choosing people the PD tends to behave around could be a choice.  People who don't put up with her nonsense and allow escalation.......

You're set on divorcing her.  NOW you need to shift focus to trial prep..... first you come up with a theory of your case and I wish I'd done that according to my evidence, and not just spat out all the crazy true stories while I was upset and in fear.

Breathe.  Get your brain integrated and put together your strategies for:
1.  Finding and hiring an attorney
2.  mitigating harm to your children.   I once spoke frankly to a forensic child psychologist who told me we have 2 options with PDs in custody cases... we can placate them OR assert authority over them in the courtroom.  For me, that ended up meaning I went against my nature and assumed the PDs would never be safe for my children to be around.  They couldn't help themselvs. What does that look like for your sg child?  Your gc?  What do you think will happen inside the stbx's home when you file?  Be ready to call the authorities if she threatens you, the kids or herself.  She might benefit from a mental health lockdown in hospital and assessment....she'll certainly learn you aren't going to play games and allow her to terrorize you THAT way anymore.  Hold her feet to the fire.  Call her on evryting.  Don't let her to get away with anything you can call her on and hold her accoutable for.... is what I got out of my situation.  You ask yourself what you feel will be YOUR situation and trust it.  One of the things driving me nuts was the reality of my situation goin IN and OUT of focus for me. I would doubt and fret and really mourn the truth..... I had a difficult time accepting my situation and that created terrible stress and emotional suffering for me. 

If I had it to do over again I would have moved out, filed for a protective order (I could have, even though my dumb attorney tome me it was too close to Christmas) and I would have gotten myself situated in the best possible location with protections and witnesses and people who could help hand off kids during visitation and DOCUMENT the children's behaviors, your behaviors and the stbx's behaviors in the best possible manner. 

Hint:  You've done an excellent job thinking ahead wih regard to recording BEFORE you under more stress and in panic mode.  Think it through for times when you might BE in panic mode.  Remember, recording the PD might end once she knows you've been recording her.
3.  locating living space away from the PD where you can think and be shielded from her, think in terms of many layers of protection between you and the stbx. Doors. People. Parking.
Once you're away from her you'll begin feeling more like your old self again.  You'll have more space and emotional calm to plan and parent.  THIS is SO important, IME.

4.  ACCEPT the PD is broken.  She can't do any better or she already would have.  Accept you have to deal with her and so do your children.  Accept you're mitigating harm, heading into divorce court.... DO NOT FEAR COURT.  It's likely your quickest way through this abyss, IME.  Build your case, no matter what DO NOT STOP.

Never cancel a hearing or court date UNTIL you have a signed, stamped and filed copy of your AGREEMENT in your hand and make sure it's enforcable through the courts.

I asked my attorney to allow me to atttend settlement discussions without her, so I could save my resources for trial.  My attorney yelled at me, sneered at me, said I didn't know what I was talking about and she shamed me into being quiet.... and she attended the day long settlement discussions at the courthouse, hosted by a retired senior Judge (who looked and talked just like Paula Deen) and it was terrifying bc the Judge said she'd read all the message boards surrounding my case and considered herself an expert in our case. So, she read all the gossip and lies surrouding the case and thought she was an expert.  TERRIFYING, but what I had to deal with.

I was forced to allow my attorney and that retired judge to twist my arm and write an agreement that was emotional suicide for me and my children, but I didn't want to be identified as the REASON they couldn't finish the case and put it behind them. They allll want to settle.  They don't want to fail.  They don't want to go through trial prep and trial and maybe lose.  BIG ego attorneys hate to lose.

Anyway, EXACTLY what I told my attorney would happen.... happened during the settlement discussions. The PDs were pushed just beyond my ability to hold....hold....hold my nervous system under control and PRETEND we were heading into a real settlement..... the PDs screamed, showed their arses and stormed out of the courthouse, thank GOD, and it was all over my insisting my children continue seeing their therapist, who knew exactly who the PDs are and would call them on them on EVERYTHING.  The PDs had a wonderful agreement they should have jumped on, would have been detrimental TO me,but they're pathologially unable to agree to ANYTHING.... they wanted to TAKE everything from me, as primary intention and that's what I told my attorney would happen.

My attorney was humble, apologetic and stopped requiring I PAY her ahead at that point. She also took it personally, bc she WAS exactly what she accused ME of being..... ignorant, unaware of the process, completely unprepared for what was going to happen and I never ever ever SAID that TO her.  I let her figure it out, while doing what I could to help her see.

Helping her SEE was showing her evidence she didn't understand UNTIL we were in court.  She might have sneered at that evidence 3 times in her office, during trial prep, but in the courtroom, at just the right moment, she looked at me and I could see in her eyes she connected dots and NEEDED that evidence to show the Judge what I'd been trying to explain to my attorney..... and I knew which box that evidence was in, had 3 clean copies of it and found it in a couple moments so my attorney could presesnt it to the Judge and opposing counsel at just the right moment to refute a lie the PDs told.... that I KNEW they'd tell.... and that was when my attorney worked for me like a most excellent show pony, sporting cha cha heals and jury rail full of documents we began preparing ahead for her to choose from as she questioned the PDs.....and the PDs looked at those documents WITH FEAR and they stopped lying and began telling the truth, which was terrifying too!  I had to pull my hands down from my face, bc I realized I was peeking through my fingers at several times during the PD's testimony.... they told the Judge who they were and I got ALLLLL my attorney fees awarded to me.

The PDs didn't show up for that last hearing,btw. 

My attorney went from slammping the table at me, throwing papers at my face, screaming at me, threatening to fire ME to being the best one of the best trial attorneys out there.  THAT was her gift.  Smart... you only had to tell her something ONCE and she got it. She was capable of holding information in her brain and retaining it.

She was capable of learning,w hich was helpful when she had to pullback her snarky bitchy style and behave uber respectfully to a court ordered therapist who was absolutely bought off by opposing counsel.  At first it seemed like we lost the case,but if you can hold....hold..... hold...... the Pds typically SHOW everyone who they are by outing themselves. In that case, they manipulated an "expert" witness who had zero experiene and understanding what the JOB really was. At first it appeared all was lost, but then exactly what I said would happen... happened. The Judge was furious opposing counsel manipulated her cherry picked Therapist to bring in more ethnic therapists to that County.  That Therapist made every mistake, refused to follow obvious rules, wrote reports all about the ONE person she wasn't Ordered to do pscyh evaluations on and THEN we found the letter from opposing counsel in the T's files, which we'd been unable to see before trial, bc the T was refusing to follow the rules. It was SO obvious she was biased. She alled opposing counsel and PDs by their first names while calling me the Defendedant with a sneer and stink eye the Judge could see.  So. Stupid.  The PDs don't typically understand nuance and flying under the wire....they do what they do and often SHOW everyone what they are in the process.

I didn't realize that court ordered T would be taken over by opposing counsel.  I wish I'd have understood it wasn't the end of the world, and might have ended all court battles, bc of their behavior...... I wish I'd known there would be good days and bad days and the bad days are just days........ things will swing back....... I didn't have to live in survival mode all the time to GET the outcome we got. 

I wasted so much time living in fight or flight...... not SEEING my children during the trial prep..... not spending time with them cooking,playing games, dancing and building forts.

DO NOT FORGET TO put the divorce/PD story on the shelf after doing everything you can do.......
then go back to having fun with your children. Be VERY present with them. Really look them in the eye and play games.... come up with new family traditions.  Talk about school and boys and things you want to do...... go to the museum and bake.

THAT willbe something you'll never regret, IME.

Learning to do what you can, then putting hte story on the shelf so you can embrace the JOY IN  FRONT OF YOU.

I used to worry worry worry worry worry worry worry as my ONLY coping strategy.

OMG.

Here's my last nugget of wisdom.... and perhaps the most important, bc your kids are going to grow up and keep themselves safe some day. You won't have to do it forever.  That's a relief, right?

Last nugget, promise.....
IF you learn to do what you can, then put the story on the shelf as primary coping strategy....
you'll be modeling it for your children TOO!

My kids are dealing with the fallout of worry worry worry...... that's what they do, bc that's what I modeled for them when they were young. 

If I could have found a good Trauma Informed Therapist to TEACH me better coping strategies and tools.....
I would have benefitted AND taught my children, exposed them to something better, modeled healthier living FOR THEM!

You can do that. You still have time.

OK, once last nugget of wisdom. 

Be careful, while you still can.

THIS little gem was shared with me by a fast food server at a drive through window.  I had no idea how profound that advice would be.  I didn't understand what he meant, but I do now.

I hope you do too.

hhaw, wow! What an incredible insightful and helpful post! I am living in the UK and I am from another European country, I don't think cases go to court as often here but I am not really that aware of the entire process which makes it a bit tricky to know the steps.

Today has been an interesting day, exhausting day, enlightening day. UNPDw and GC went out for the morning, came back and it all kicks off. After saying hello them both when they came back, I asked GC if she was OK - clearly been fed all morning by her mum so shouts at me straight away "what about mum". I try to calmly say I asked you, you are my child and it's normal to ask your child when coming back home.... but, no she has been brain washed that it's more important how her mum is than herself, I just want to cry. Everything is on edge for lunch, and for some longer until it all kicks off. UNPDstbxW confronts me and start probing me why I am so mean to her, whatever I say she keeps pushing and shouting and in the end I cvan hear the front door slam and I see SG walking off with her bag.... I immediately goes for my shoes to go after her, but oh no stbx stands in my way refusing to let me get out the door so have to push past, hearing her screaming and shouting behind. Me and SG then drove round went to a couple of shops for a couple of hours to calm both her and me down. Back home and the other 2 has left going shopping so got some peace and quiet.

So when we are all back home and I sit down she comes into the room, closing the door behind and starts all over again. Accusing me of being cold and that she want the marriage to continue and question me why I want to flush it down the toilet. I tell her I am not accepting her abuse and she denies it all, I keep telling her she overstepped the mark last time and I had enough. She then admits to wanting to hurt me when we have an argument  :aaauuugh: Yes, she admits to really wanting to hurt me.... She has said it before but if I wasn't aware before I am now.  But she still thinks it is OK to hurt me and still asks me why I don't want to go out for a meal with her etc. She kept going on and on and on about why I want to give up the marriage when she is trying to be nice. Told her itäs not about being nice, it's about not being nasty and if she can stop being nasty time will tell, told her I can say whatever but she wont last one week without loosing it. So the end of the conversation as I left it was that next time she is nasty to me we are done, if she wants to get back together it will take whatever time it takes for her to prove she has changed and not lost her temper. Pretty safe bet as she cannot go a week without loosing it all..... So 5 minutes later when I am in the kitchen she comes and gives me a hug pretending we are now back on being a loving couple again  :doh:

At least my body, brain and emotional thinking has started to be on my side. I just want out, for me it's all about getting it right. I will try to get in touch with this other lawyers I found on Monday, my head is getting Out of the FOG for real.

One time when H was contrite after a meltdown I quoted an eviscerating thing he had said earlier. He winced and said "I didn't mean it, I just wanted to hurt you."

Oh, is that all? Well, no problem then. I guess.

Managed to get away for a couple of days on a trip I had planned for some time, completely disconnected from everything about her and just enjoyed myself and the activities. Funny bit was she was trying to force me to accept her giving me a lift to the airport despite its so easy and cheap to get a taxi there. Normally when I have agreed to her giving me a ride she ends up loosing her temper and use the 20 minutes to shout and scream to make me in as bad mood as possible when leaving. Not this time, quite proud I managed to stick to my guns.

Whilst being away she has decided we are going to try to be nice to each other and keep the family together. Interesting this as that is what I have tried for almost 20 years, so now when I have told her I had enough and we are done she think she can just turn a switch and then be nice. Why has she not tried before? Anyway, I am laying low as I know her cycles and there is no way she will manage 2 weeks, never mind 1 week without loosing her temper and start another row. Kids are starting a new school in a few weeks, ideally I would like to keep it together until then as they are naturally nervous about the move from primary to secondary school. I suppose now is the time for her to show me it was only flies (severe) and not some kind of PD, however I am pretty sure it isn't.

MIL was here a couple of weeks ago (this is what triggered the last fallout) and the kids didn't behave in a way MIL and uNPDw expected (they were a bit mischievous) and uNPDw ended up hitting one of them in from of MIL. I stepped in and said it is under no circumstance OK to hit the kids whatever they have done. It ended up with both of them storming off and since then MIL has given the kids the silent treatment, who in the right mind gives a kid the silent treatment? One of them even texted her a sorry but she didn't even respond to that. I had another fight over this with my wife and told her that this is not acceptable and that MIL is no longer welcome in our house. Not that she will listen to that as MIL can do whatever she wants and uNPDw has dedicated her entire life to please her mum. I suspect MIL has severe NPD treats, FIL had too, and this is obviously the main reason for my uNPDws behaviour. I spend the first 15 years trying to save her from her parents, but I have given up now, despite her being beaten black and blue in her childhood they were the best parents ever.

Anyway, I have my plan and I am ready for when I need to execute it. It could be next week, it could be in a month, all I know is it will have to be done at some point. 

I just don't feel I am living anymore, just existing. After her last outburst I don't care anymore, I have no feelings towards her other than apathy. Sitting in my office working and pretending to work whilst she is running round the house inventing jobs so she looks busy and has the right to complain. Until she eventually gets her food ready and moves into the living room watching her TV and her programs I can't rest. Then I can get my own food ready and go back and eat in my office often joined by SG. She has now as I wrote before decided that we are going to try to save the marriage, I just can't believe that she really thinks that it is up to her and only her to make that decision and I should just try as well. No apology, no remorse, and guess who has to change to save the marriage?

Yesterday I picked up the kids from football camp, they had been set a task to clean their boots and to participate in a competition for who has the cleanest boots the next day. Both kids came home excited about this and started cleaning the boots straight away, all in calmness as uNPDw was at MILs house. But the same second she came home all hell brake loose, she started screaming and swearing at SG for the mess and for cleaning the boots in the wrong room and then for being dirty and for not having showered and so on and on. During all this shouting she kept coming to me and asked me to back her up. Back her up? I didn't agree with a single thing, they are kids, kids are supposed to me kids and sometimes they are mucky and they also need to be let go sometimes. Anyway during all this chaos SG took her bag, put her shoes on and just left the house, second time this week she has done it. So I obviously get my shoes on to follow her and calm her down and to get her home, but uNPDw just kept screaming and swearing and not caring one jot that one of our kids left the house.

But, she is still thinking she is trying to save the marriage and keep the family together.....

What do you say to SG.... to get her back into th house? Does she know you're planning to leave the marriage and perhaps take her out of the abuse?

And....what was gc doing while sg child was getting screamed at for the shoe mucking mess?

I will say this.....
during my time in therapy /marriage counseling with the ASPD..... and while I was attemtping to negotiate LEAVING him...... our therapist suggested we divide the assets and get that out of the way of reconciling....bc.... it was a power imbalance in the relationship. Really, the T was trying to help me position myself better in order to divorce, but you might think about things you can negotiate under the guise of working on the marriage.  Not saying you should.  Not saying there's anything at all to be gained, just suggesting you look at what's in front of you from many different perspectives, bc it's hard when you're in it and your children are suffering, IME.

Have you made appointments with other attorneys yet?

What do you feel would be a good plan for leaving, when you go?

Do you have strong supporters who can facilitate staying safe and documenting for and with you as things go?  Can you, would you, stay with any of those strong supporters when you leave?

SG knows, we have come very close as the abuse escalated. She is only a child but way to clued up with what her mum is doing and she is playing the game as well, I think she is actually getting Out of the FOG and only at an age of 11. I have actually booked 3 days away just me and SG, uNPDw not happy one bit but as she is currently trying to save the marriage  :aaauuugh: she is not getting to vocal other than moaning about how jealous she is. I am trying to teach SG about MC, no JADE,GR and the rest of the tool box as much as it is possible with an 11 year old, she takes out a lot of frustration on me - it's hard for me but at least she has someone to vent on.

GC is going through struggles at the moment, but she thinks that going to her mum will solve everything. I am trying to work on her as well but that is currently very tricky as she sees her mum as the best thing in the world. I think she is in more danger for long term damage by the abuse from uNPDw but it is so much more difficult to get close to her.

I need to prioritise those 2 little girls before anything else, I want us all to be free but right now I just need to protect them as good as I can.

You got it exactly right.

She upped her nastiness, as I wrote in another post she is now hundred percent committed to turn the kids against me. She can sit and back chat me and tell them all sorts of stories, I catch her red handed and she completely denies it and makes it out it's all in my head (I have it all recorded). Then she starts shouting at me and whatever my response is (MC, calmly answering or shouting back) the kids takes her side. I am really crumbling here, it is impossible to live with someone that is doing all they can to ruin your life and then blame it on you. She makes fun of everything I do, and the kids believe her. She makes fun of daily tasks as if I am not allowed to do them, me going to the supermarket to buy food has now become a joke and they laugh at me for it. She makes fun of me taking the kids to training as she states it, I am only doing it to meet the other parents. Sure as hell she hates that, I am not allowed friends or family. I feel so discussed looking at her, hearing her voice as it all is so false and its all a game to her. What the kids doesn't understand, is that, if I back down and "join team" with her again one of them or both will be the new Scapegoat and get all the abuse. It is NOT possible to all of us get along being happy, she can't handle it. Now I am getting called immature and a 2 year old for doing MC and letting her do the things I was supposed to do with the kids but she "took over" to play me.

I hate her.

That sounds completely, completely intolerable :(

What makes this extra hard is that suddenly, again, she want everything to be good and complete forgetting how she behaved. So told her I am really upset for how she behaved yesterday and she replies she is upset with how I behaved  :stars: Funny she can't ever take responsibility for how she behaved, suppose that is the PD and nothing I can do anything about.

Kids were good to me as soon as we all were out the house without her and even appologised.

EM:

Does it help to picture your wife as someone who was wounded as a child and perhaps got stuck at that age emotionally?

Does it help to think of your wife as a mentally ill person who's broken and can't do better, or she would have?

I, like yourself, was highly triggered when adults, who should know better than to weaponize, manipulate and/or terrorize children.... did not know better.

I wasn't able to SEE the PD parents as people who were once likely abused vulnerable children too. 

With some distance, many years and a very good Trauma Informed Therapist, I've managed to gain some emotional distance I wish I'd been able to access during the most stressful years of my life.... similar to yours in some ways, where adults were using children as pawns and to terrorize or harm me or someone else in my family.

Know this...... what they're doing can't be controlled.

HOW you handle it.... how level you can stay during it.... THESE things you can control.

You remaining logical and level is better, IME.
You'll be more responsive to your children, who're being manipulated and harmed by their mother.

You RESPONSIVE, rather than REACTIVE means you have access to your frontal lobe....
it means you aren't caught in fight or flight/reptilian/survival brain where logic/reason/creativity and problem solving is IMPOSSIBLE, bc your biochemistry has been hijacked.

Trust me.....seeking out a good trauma informed T, perhaps with Buddhist leanings, could help you navigate the nightmare ahead, IME.

I wish I'd had access to that kind of help BEFORE filing divorce from a very disturbed person.

Good luck to you,

hhaw: She was abused as a child, she is still by her mum, but I tried and tried and tried to save her. But I can't.

Today she has won, I lost it. She has turned theGolden Child against me to a degree where I just couldn't take it anymore. I shouted at GC after she had been shouting and swearing at me using the exact same words as her mum. She shouted at me for ignoring her, I never, but I have been doing MC to her mum. uNPDw not happy with me doing MC so she involves the kids pretending I am ignoring them.

uNPDw has now told me and the kids that I am the crazy one and that I need help. I am about to explode. I really can't take this anymore. I think for my sanity and for my relation to the kids I have to just pack up and leave tomorrow. How can it be me being the crazy one when I have never had a problem ever in my life before I met her?

Can you leave tomorrow?

Square: I can, but I really don't know what they would do to SG if I leave. She is scared, she is really suffering, she is fed up with all the shouting (so am I), but a change is needed and I just have to find out how to.

escapingman, can you take your child with you?

Right, did you get legal advice on that? As I recall, SG is asking you to leave, and take her?

I think whether you physically leave tomorrow or not, it's time to get the plan together. Legal advice on custody. A place to go and the basic furnishings for it (beds for you and both kids, Internet).

You're in hell and it's not going to get better. But the thing is, your kids are there too. You can exit and also get your kids out at least a portion of the time (I hope over 50%).

I really feel for you. I am glad some obstacles apparently aren't an issue - sounds like this is financially and physically doable. Emotionally, hard, yeah. Harder than the hell you're in? Yeah, hard to unfreeze. But once you've unfrozen, you can provide safety for yourself and at least some for your kids. Right ow you can provide almost none.

 :yeahthat:

Thanks everyone for your kind messages. I will start making a plan for my exit, this time I am 10000% committed to leave and I don't care about anything else than getting away from her and what I might lose in the process. She is treating me like dirt in front of the kids and are doing her best to set them against me, this I cannot defend against and not should I have to. Looking at the 100 traits she has most of the nasty ones, I can only hope the kids will be able to see as if I try to say anything they kick off and blame me. I am sick and tired of seeing my oldest throwing her childhood away to pander to uNPD. I have ended the relationship with uNPDw in my mind, I don't need to inform her as she ignores anything I say anyway.

I am going to come back telling you more in an new thread when my plan is up and running. It could be later today, in a week or two. But I know what I want and I am going to have it, and that is freedom.

I wish you godspeed.

That blaming you thing, partly is likely survival for GC to maintain her tentative status, but for SG could also be like "you are the reasonable parent, why are you setting mom off and ruining the day, why can't you fix this." People tend to let PDs off the hook and hold reasonable people responsible, because who else could be responsible?

But you can't fix your wife, you've tried everything.

EM:

Remember to always always speak about your stbx w with compassion. She's the mother of your children and the kids deserve a neutral parent who doesn't demand they choosed sides or attack the other parent.  The GC will choose her mother, bc her mother offers conditional love where she knows you'll always love her.  It's a very sad and difficult place to live for both your children. 

How can you make their lives less chaotic, less stressful, less combative INSIDE the adult conflict?

Leaving.  Providing a calm space where the kids can decompress and be honest without being judged, asked to choose sides or admit their mother is disordered and harmful, bc she'll always be their mother.  You let those kids know you'll never ask them to choose.  Things will be different when you live apart, but everyone will be OK.

Mom is in charge of her adult stuff.  You're in charge of your adult stuff.

The kids have their own jobs and that's school, chores and finding their passions, bc they have lives to build into adulthood, their own households, families of their own and that's something they should think about.

WHAT do these kids want for themselves as adults? For their own children, if they have them?

Those are the kinds of questions I'd ask and I'd just listen...... never commenting when they touched on something negative their mother does, bc it will make the SG defensive and shut down, likely. 

You aren't going to fix her. Your'e going to hold safe space for her to feel safe enough to speak without fearing you'll tell her mother what she said and get her in trouble. Don't ever betray her trust. That will be difficult the STBX's behavior is uhinging stuff, IME.

Just cultivate being calm, consistent dad.  Put stated boundaries in place and hold them gently, without emotional energy.... very calm and consistent. 

Your SG child already speaks honestly with you and understands the separation and divorce will benefit her and you, but once you file... her mother is going to up the emotional terrorism.  How can you mitigate that and be proactive about it?

I think you said you and your SG child have a T?  If not, it's time to find ones who're Trauma Informed...EMDR is a good tool, IME.

Preparing yourself and your SG is something you CAN do.

Preparing your stbx and GC is likely not something you can do without compromising your mission and emotional safety, perhaps physical safety.

DOCUMENT
DOCUMENT
DOCUMENT

Get a plan together.

Share these plans ONLY with trusted few people you can count on come hell or high water. 

Hide your evidence well...maybe leave with a family member or friend.  I think moving IN with a very steady person or family, at first at least, is a good thing, bc it offers witnesses, people who won't put up with PD outbursts...... people who can bring you back to earth when your PD sets you on fire and sends you spinning into fight or flight mode.

Be prepared to put boundaries in place with the GC around her abusive conduct towards you.  Her mother is directing it BUT SHE'S STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR HER BEHAVIOR.  I wouldn't tolerate it.... I'd think of a plan to return her to her mother, with kind words and sadness you couldn't have a nice visit, bc she wasn't able to honor your stated boundaries.

You're teaching both chldren about healthy boundaries when you practice and enforce them, IME.

Having these interactions recorded, or witnessed, is something a Court can understand, IME.  You can't lose your temper or say snarky things or be unkind in speech about your stbx during these interactions.

You CAN say you're sorry your GC feels the way she does. You CAN tell her you love her always and forever, no matter what and yu will never ask her to choose between her mother and you. 

You CAN say you'll support her mother in being the best possible mother she can be and you hope she can support you as a father.

You CAN remind your GC.... the adult conflict is not HER conflict.  It's up to the adults to solve these issues and they will be solved, even if her mother is asking her to take sides and join the conflict..... that's a very sad choice her mother is making and it's truly NOT GC's job to deal or think about the adult stuff.  HER JOB IS kids stuff.... school, chores and finding her passions. That's it. 

I'd refer to all of STBX's emotional terrorism as "sad choices" and I'd spend as much time as I could asking the kids what they think about everything. 

I'd listen.

I wouldn't judge.

I'd validate their feelings, no matter what they are, dependant on the GC's ability to speak without name calling, raising her voice or threatening you... whatever it is you feel you need to put in place to promote healthy boundaries and TEACH your children what appropriate an innapropriate communication looks like.

Your childen need to see functional and healthy family interaction..... experience it, even if the GC is acting as interpersonal terrorist in her mother's place right now...... you're always always consistent and calmly working at providing that stable space for yourself and your children.

I would think down the road to GC behaving vry badly in your new space.  I would limit her ability to terrorize you and SC child.

Document
Document
Document

Having mental health professionals documenting, suggesting good strategies AND BACKING YOU UP in court and in front of attorneys and to the STBX is imperative.

Your children need advocates and so do you.

Think ahead to Ts who testify and have the ABILITY to tesify well.  Some are very bad at it, IME.  Some are intimidated by PDs and being sued and sometimes physical fear of the PDs.  Think things all the way to that last trial........ what you NEED in place to SHOW THE COURT, wtihout regret, what your reality is.

What do you neeeeeeeed in the settlement? 

Everything needs to be framed around what's best for the children, the children, the children.

Just bc you lose your temper ONCE with the PD doesn't mean anything.  This is a long game. You'll have good and bad days and everything in between so accept this will be a long messy slog.

Think about how  you can do everything you can in the moment, PUT THE DIVORCE and everything STBX on the shelf and create JOY with your children.... or the SG if the GC makes sad choices requiring she be removed from a visit till she fully understands her father can and will enforce boundaries in a loving, consistent and gentle way.... always expressing sadness when she makes sad choices and letting her know you hope she makes happier choices, bc you believe in her....you know she can do it...... she doesn't have to choose between her parents, bc that would be a cruel and abusive thing to ask of a child...... she's free to take care of herself, but she's not responsible for any adult or adult stuff. 

I know you'll do this and I wish you the best possible outcome, EM.