Two Faced or is there a name for this personality type

Lilyloo · July 11, 2019, 04:02:43 AM

I am so shocked by peoples behavior, and also very sad. My sister-in-law has displayed disloyalty to our family several times now. It's odd because she talks about how family "must stick together"

The last incident involves my daughters breakup with a diagnosed BPD. He has caused her so much pain and stress. A child custody battle is ongoing. The SIL will support us to our face then turn around and 'like' his posts on FB, and even chat with him. I told her months ago to please not have anything to do with him. Just yesterday we saw she was chatting with him.

I was so angry but do not know what to do. My husband is no help. He seems to know she is wrong but still will not do anything. This is one of many times she has betrayed us, by talking to people who have hurt the family. Another time it was to a cousin who has kept an estate from being closed. Seven cousins(my hubby also) were included in a will by his aunt. One cousin has stopped the closure of this for 9 years. She bashed us, and is greedy!

Yet my SIL met with her for two hours just casually chatting. We found out and she was told to never do that again!

Still she goes to any person who has betrayed or hurt the family, yet talks trash about them to our face

I am totally confused at this behavior. Does it have a name. Is she BPD, N, I just dont know but I am fuming and feel helpless. Someone said there is a disorder called 'avoidance PD' Really, is that a true disorder.

I am sick of her betrayals. Any input would be greatly appreciated

bloomie · July 11, 2019, 08:32:04 AM

LindaLoo - More than anything this sounds like a person who does not project trustworthiness or a reliable influence in your life. It seems like the issue is that what is represented to you as your sil's opinions and values cannot be trusted. Almost like they are situational and constantly changing depending on who she is talking with or where there is drama and gossip and such to be found?

It is very confusing when a family member's behaviors and choices in who they align themselves with does not line up and somehow seems to consistently manage to be covertly divisive and self serving.

With a similar type of family member, who is a notorious gossip and drawn to the center of acrimony and drama between other family members and who shows many signs of undiagnosed NPD and HPD, for self preservation I have a very medium chill approach to any conversation with her. I have learned the very hard way she is incapable of discretion and many times promotes and stirs up discord and chaos. For my own peace and health I have had to disengage emotionally from the angst and confusion this pattern of behavior brings to me.

We cannot control or change or cure another person. And just like you and me, your sil is free to contact and chat with whomever she chooses, however you are also free to adjust your level of contact and involvement with someone who is at the very least inconsistent in their words versus actions and whose choices are distressing you and undermining your confidence in them.

It has helped me to remove myself from being in a position to view this person's upsetting behaviors. Is there a way for you protect yourself from seeing this chatting? It seems like you have enough on your plate without having this all up in your head and leaving you fuming.

Lilyloo · July 11, 2019, 09:58:51 AM

Thank you Bloomie for your reply. You are right about everything! She is not trust worthy. I know it, but the family just let her get by with this! My hubby refuses to see, or maybe he does and is ashamed, I just don't know?

There is always the problem of holidays. . She hosts the Christmas dinner. I so much do not want to go, and I did skip it one year. It's the fact that I am left out alone standing up for what I believe is right, while all the rest ignore it. I go and I am resentful pretending. Isn't anyone honest anymore $:-\$

It must be me! I must just overthink, over feel, and over react, if it's not me, then why do they all act like she does nothing wrong? I can honestly say I do think they know how she is, but it's like a big act in that family, put on a good front, no matter what!

We heard thru a third party about her post to him. I still believe that she should not get away with these things, but with no support from family its a losing battle. I did ask her not to do it. The sweet person she portrays on FB is a total sham

I will read your post again and try very hard to not let it bring me any further down. I know you are 100% right! How tho do we not honor our own feelings? I am a deep sensitive person, I do admit, but when she hurts my daughter it's hard not to be angry. Thank you again

I do listen to the advice here.

Lilyloo · July 11, 2019, 01:50:47 PM

but............... I also feel she should answer 'why' she is a sneak and fake who gets away with anything. I wish we could move far far away and never see her again. I would be so happy to never deal with her again

just having a bad day, I'm sorry

Lilyloo · July 11, 2019, 02:51:02 PM

ok, I need help but I will let it go

bloomie · July 11, 2019, 03:21:35 PM

LindaLoo - you can most certainly honor your feelings and acknowledge them and move through them. I hope I didn't imply otherwise.

I guess the question becomes... is it productive for YOU to try and hold someone accountable that refuses responsibility for their behaviors and that seems to be surrounded by a family culture that turns a blind eye?

Your protective instincts and anger for her hurting your child and for the big show she portrays for social media are understandable and the contact with an ex during your dd's painful custody dispute is very hard to take.

I had to learn to feel those feelings, honor them, and take a time out from the relationship for awhile in whatever areas and ways possible. Not the same thing as giving someone the silent treatment in a punitive way, but I took a break and gave myself some time and distance to sort how when/if/how I could stay connected with the larger family events, like Christmas. I didn't announce it to anyone, I just quietly exited the front row seat I was occupying in the audience of her chaotic and divisive life.

My eventual conclusion was I cannot have regular ongoing contact with this person or knowledge of what is happening in her life. Others may be able to stay dutifully in their seats and watch the show without a great deal of harm to them, but I could not do that. It was not healthy for me. I rarely even enter the auditorium now and when I do have contact because of some larger family event, I strap on my kevlar vest over my heart, and I am my best cocktail party self and get lost in the crowd as quickly as I can.

It is a marathon - this processing and finding the best strategies and coping skills with someone like this who is hurting your child and your FOC. Working through my boundaries - both external, like how often I am in contact and internal - how often I allow my thoughts to dwell on all of her stuff has been good self care and healthy work in my life. I also learned with my own DH who for a very long time had the starting gate position that this is just how this person is and always has been...

is I was absorbing and feeling all of the discomfort and feelings in the situation. When I stopped doing that he began to have to deal with those things... and her, himself. Just some food for thought.

Some helpful resources:

https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/take-a-time-out

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/30/circular-conversations

And one of my most favorite helps when it comes to working with strong emotions and befriending them is the work of Karla McLaren and her blog post around anger is here: https://www.karlamclaren.com/2013/03/29/understanding-and-befriending-anger/

Keep coming back and sharing. We are here!

treesgrowslowly · July 11, 2019, 04:47:44 PM

Hi Lindaloo,

I feel you. It's brutal dealing with a family member like this. I agree with Bloomie about how to approach this and what the goal really is.

When someone acts like this we sure wish everyone in the family could see it and respond appropriately. But most families seem to have a bunch of members who go along to get along, or like Bloomie said, they have a seat at the table and watch the drama without dealing with it. It really is a situation where the more sensitive you are the more this behaviour will affect you. You absorb it, as Bloomie put it.

Lindaloo you mentioned that you are sensitive. This is a good thing. You are aware that this is where there needs to be some real boundaries. That's what sensitive people do, they see where there needs to be boundaries, limits and protection. Without sensitive people where would we be? Sensitive people see and feel what is really going on. They listen to their gut feelings when a person acts shady.

Anyone who chats up the ex of a family member on social media is a troublemaker in my view. Any reason they could possibly give can't outweigh the damage it does to their family relationships so I truly wonder. When they say that, it's a cover. A misdirection. So you won't notice or will be confused when their actions don't match their words. Magicians use misdirection all the time. We look over here and wait we didn't see what was going on over there.

I would not trust a person who chats online with the ex of a family member. She would have to work really hard to earn back my trust over years. Its a real transgressing of an obvious boundary and she's doing it for a reason. but even if you found out the reason, the bigger problem is that she did it.

Lile Bloomie has suggested the real goal is for you to live with more peace for yourself. So many of us here have had to opt out of holiday events because the PDs are in charge. The PDs make it impossible to enjoy your holiday.

It's really hard to shift your focus away from them back to you. Being sensitive, you want people to behave with respect and integrity. You can't change them or make them self aware or make them sensitive . you can take time outs from their drama. You're allowed to take time out for yourself. In fact, I have learned the hard way that the time out from someone like this is the only way I get my bearings back so that I can make decisions on when and if to see them in the future.

What you describe is the behaviour of someone who is manipulative. The less information she has the better. Some of us close our social media, etc. for that reason.

Lilyloo · July 11, 2019, 04:55:28 PM

Thank you Bloomie! I get something in my head and just can't shut it off. It's not good for me I know! It is not productive, you are right, It only harms me because it's evident it doesn't bother her that she's not loyal to family. She has an obsession with FB. The family knows that and some have told her to stop, but she cares less

Your hubby seemed much like mine. I'm glad he changed and dealt with her. Mine never wiil. I must learn to keep quiet about her to him. It only makes things worse. I must keep quiet to the whole clan...

Thank you so much

I apologize for being snippy. One of those days

and no not at all did you imply anything other than be kind and helpful

Lilyloo · July 11, 2019, 05:13:28 PM

Thank you treesgrowslowly! Such good advice! So true, I do wish everyone in the family could see it and respond. I did talk to her older sister after the FB incident before this one. Her answer was "I can't tell you why she behaves that way" so I dropped it and made myself not call her sister this time. What good does it do

I do follow my gut, you are right on that. I often wish I were tougher. If I were I'd be messaging her on FB and asking why?? I know she would just ignore me. I only use FB for messaging. I don't even add people as friends. There is far to many self-absorbed people there. She is more addicted to FB than anyone I know. She needs everyone to love her, no matter who it hurts in her path. She is not to be trusted ever again.

Thank you for defending us sensitive folks

Time outs are good!! I will do it! I'm learning here from all of you

Thank you again so much

treesgrowslowly · July 12, 2019, 07:05:33 AM

Hi Lindaloo,

Also you have a great name here. Wanted to add that from my last post.

I picked up on your statement "I wish I was tougher". I can share with you what I've learned - sensitive person to sensitive person... lol....

People who respond to everything or call people out on things by saying, for example, "why did you do that?" On social media are not necessarily tougher than us. Sure, they want answers, and we want answers.

But we intuitive types know the answers to a lot of our questions....we just don't like the answers our gut is telling us.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I bet you know more about why she does this than she does. Asking her why won't get you as far as you think. Unless she is really self aware, what she says will be her defense not her reason.

You'll jist get her preferred conflict avoidance tool- probably self righteousness or acting put upon, or defensive, or contemptuous, or passive aggressive, or silent treatment or self-pitying. The laundry list of dysfunctional strategies basically.

None of that will help you and worse, being sensitive, you will absorb all that garbage negative stuff and try to process it by working hard to understand it.

Which we can't do without feeling those things ourselves. You'll try to process her anger and you don't have to. This is a hard learned lesson I've had to learn. We don't have to.

Like that scene in the movie the Green Mile where emotions are transferred from one person to another and one character tries to absorb the evil from another character. In the end he suffers and no one knows how to save him. But luckily we can save ourselves from this misery of other peoples drama.

There is enough in our own day for us to process without taking on someone elses guilt or shame or anger to process for them.
I say 👎. Again, here's to us sensitive people and self protection and all that jazz...!

Asking yourself questions gets you a lot further. Further from her and closer to your own needs. She has unhealthy boundaries (or something), could be all manner of factors. Doesn't really matter. When you see a pothole up ahead, you drive around it not into it. Whether you ever find out why the pothole was there is secondary.

You don't want to damage your car and you instinctively know that potholes can damage cars.

It's the same way I plan with people. Granted it is on a whole other level of emotional management because in my analogy, you simply drive around the pothole. No problem. People are definitely not potholes. You can't always just "drive around them". But sometimes we must learn to. For our own sanity.

When there is an unhealthy person who is in charge of Christmas, that's like the road has been closed, or feels like the road to my destination doesnt have a pothole, it got destroyed.

Thought process of a sensitive person: Here i am minding my business and Christmas comes alone and this jerk now makes it feel impossible for me to get to my destination - a happy family gathering. Boo.

Circumstances can help you identify options for yourself. What times can you avoid her and which times can you not? On this site you'll see a lot of us find gatherings are stressful, because the PDs don't behave during the lead up to a wedding, new baby, dinner, etc...really anytime its about something other than them you can expect them to misbehave.

Also, people who use social media for their narcissistic supply get a real boost from messages such as the one you wish you could send. She wants your attention. The less you give her, the tougher YOU are.

You are already tougher than you realize.

Trees

Lilyloo · July 12, 2019, 09:35:42 AM

Thank you! I like your name too!

I love your example of the pothole

That is so true! I wouldn't intentionally hit that pothole and ruin my car. I do kind of suspect why she does it. She has a lot of baggage with men. My daughters ex really likes her and she really likes him. She will connect with anyone to be liked! The man she is with is an alcoholic and nasty to her. I guess she thinks women should stay

My daughter didn't!! That kind of mentality would have no answer if asked 'why' She would do the silent treatment like you said.

I guess I could go through many reasons and whys, and there are many. She must feel no guilt or she would not do it. I suspect she feels nothing much at all. I probably could analyze forever, but I won't

I will ask myself some questions, I need to!I need to answer questions about myself. I felt it was betrayal and that's pretty much the reason it upset me. , but you know what, people see who she is on FB, so I don't need to prove anything at all.

And, you are so right that we have enough to process each day, so I must not let her get to me. I feel good about 'me' that I would never do that to family. I could not imagine talking to a person who has caused so much pain.

You are spot on again that it is just garbage and will drain me trying to understand.

Thank you again! This forum is such a positive, teaching experience .My day can be better because of each of you

moglow · July 18, 2019, 09:35:54 AM

Hey LindaLoo, I'm sorry this is causing you so much pain. It's hard to sit back and watch this kind of thing go on, particularly when you've been on the receiving end and know how painful it can be.

One thing that has helped me let go with my mother is thinking about all the many nasty things and secrets of others she's shared with me - the back stabbing, belittling, vile and/or very private things she's told me that should never ever have been repeated. She used to voraciously collect info and basically interrogate people over any potentially drama-inducing situation, then share it with any and everyone with whom she came in contact later.

Mother has repeated some very personal things I stupidly shared with her, and they came back to me later much bigger and uglier than the actuality. Or she'd bring it up repeatedly, flinging it back at me as if I need to hear it again. Bad enough that I had to go through it at all, but then for it to be blown up so much worse?? Nope. I see it now, and I can't unsee it. I can't afford to.

Once I stepped back and really looked at it from the outside, I took a HUGE step away from her and all that bs. When I talk to her now, I talk about the weather or my car or pets or the trees, etc. Nothing personal, certainly nothing that may be used as a weapon. By the same token, I disregard what she says to or about others - not my stuff. I know now that half or less may be true, and I want no part of it. You want to be friends with someone you know to have stomped all over me and laughed about it? You do that. But don't expect me to then be your friend - you get arms length and superficial from me. If that.

Basically I had to see that none of what she does is personal - she doesn't even know who I am, so how can it be personal? And I saw that she does it to everyone and seems to get some kind of cheap thrill out of it. That's who SHE is, not me. I can and will be cordial and courteous, same as with anyone else, but beyond that? Nope. I don't want or need her in my bubble.

Just a few thoughts from the edge. I hope it helps a little - you're not alone.

Lilyloo · July 18, 2019, 10:40:16 AM

Hi moglow! Thank you! My mother does cause me much pain. This time it was my sister-in-law. She has been disloyal to my family several times. My husband just lets her off the hook. I just know that for instance say...my brothers ex wife had treated him so emotionally abusive, (just like my daughters ex has treated her, he has drained her mentally) I would not go on my ex SIL FB page and talk to her, like her posts or have anything to do with her.

But SIL did it, just chatted away like my daughters ex did nothing

I do think she has mental issues but who knows

As my husbands sister i can't do much about it either. To much stress to start problems. I think someday tho I will confront her

This is several times she has done this with different people who have betrayed our family. Nobody does anything, they say nothing and she gets away with it

I have no clue why? Why everyone just turns their head?

About our mothers. Oh yes they do stab us in the back, talk about us, play favorites with siblings. My mother is also one to post crap on FB, to get attention. I know everyone here is dealing with the stress of these people. I also don't tell my mother anything personal. Then she emails saying "you shut your family out" To that I do not reply.

Thank you so much for great advice!

moglow · July 18, 2019, 11:37:37 AM

For me it's primarily been mother, because I couldn't get away from it/her for so long, but really the same applies with others in/around my life. I had to separate myself from her/their stuff, painful as it has been at times to see and hear what's going on. You want to be friends with someone who stomped all over me or those I care about? Fine - but don't think for a minute that doesn't tell me exactly who you are. I now pay attention and will very deliberately remove myself from that line of fire. I can't change your actions or control how you choose to treat my people, but neither will I engage with you myself. Confronting it, to me, isn't really my place because I can't choose anyone else's "friends." I just know it behooves me to pay attention to the culprit's behavior let it go - for my own peace of mind.

I've watched a good friend going through it over and over with another mutual acquaintance. This acquaintance sucks my friend in, they get all chummy and comfortable, then the acquaintance gaffs her for no apparent reason other than because she has ammunition. I don't know if she gets bored or doesn't think or just has no integrity, but she inevitably ends up with hurting my friend. My friend then goes OFF, comes unglued and is tormented by it happening and what people are supposedly saying. All I can do is remind her, her so called friend's behavior is HER stuff and she's responsible for it, not you.

Try to not take it in as your stuff, is what I'm saying. Disloyal or not, she doesn't sound worth your time or worry. I doubt seriously that any confrontation with her would serve any purpose other than give her information for later.

moglow · July 18, 2019, 12:07:21 PM

Just an added though about the confrontation or not - I personally wouldn't pursue a confrontation and might even avoid it at all costs as not worth my time or energy. However, should a troublesome person then come to me, asking or showing presumed concern over how she's being treated/avoided by others, I might just give her the earful of which she's in need. I'd start with something along the lines of "Are you serious?? You might want to consider how you treated that person THEN question your own behavior/what you said behind their back..." If she cant or won't figure it out from there, her oblivion has naught to do with me. Oh, and sister in law or not, I'd likely block her on FB. I wouldn't want to be part of that audience.

I read an article recently about writing out all the negative things you're feeling and how beneficial it can really be. They suggest setting a timer and writing/typing stream of consciousness to get out whatever is in your/our mind. When timer dings, read it over once then delete or destroy said writings (I like the purification of fire, myself!). Put it down and walk away from it, in other words, so she can stop renting space in my head!

Lilyloo · July 18, 2019, 12:27:00 PM

Thanks again! Shes not my friend on FB. I don't add people, I use it to message only because I do not like FB. I'm sure that sounds weird

but I'm a bit of an introvert. I do like it to look at nature pages, art pages, poetry, etc, things like that. FB can cause many issues. I did make the mistake of looking on daughters exs page, won't be doing that again! I see now that looking at other's stuff is just bad news, It can ruin a day and not worth it.

Me too, most of my anxiety and stress etc come from my mother, but now and then the other people cause some stress. You are right this SIL isn't worth my time or worry. It is so true it really is HER stuff, that really is a good way to think of it, yes, a very good thought to keep in mind 'it's her stuff, not mine' her flaw or issue whatever reason she chooses to do it, it's HERS!

Thank you, I gain so much good advice here

goodgirl · July 19, 2019, 08:26:03 AM

Hi, LIndaloo!

I just want to second Moglow about confrontation and avoiding it. I've had to learn this lesson with my NBro: if he can provoke me into an emotional reaction (no matter how justified based on his outrageous behavior) it is a WIN for HIM! Any emotion response on my part will be turned around and used against me. He WANTS that. And so I have trained myself to respond blandly, formally, factually to everything. I know it makes him crazy.

One thing that helps is that I only communicate with him over text or email. I never told him outright that this was a boundary I set, but he intuited it after a while (and recognized that I was not so easily manipulated when he couldn't yell directly at me) and has tried to force me to communicate over the phone. NOPE. With written communication, I can take the time to absorb whatever crap he's dishing out, pull myself together, and respond calmly on MY terms. Also, when he messages a combination of legitimate questions and crazy-making nonsense, I just ignore the crazy and respond ONLY to the reasonable stuff. Makes. Him. Crazy.

Lilyloo · July 30, 2019, 01:33:05 PM

Thank you goodgirl! Just seeing your reply.

You are right about avoiding confrontation. It never gets us far, just more stress. I like what you are doing about your Nbro. They do use anything against us so best to set boundaries without them knowing. It sounds like you are doing just the right stuff to deal with him. Good for you!

I'd like to confront SIL, but have decided not to. It has helped that since I wrote this post others are seeing her for what she is. She has betrayed us again in recent weeks.