Hoarding Disorder in friend

[Catothecat]

I've looked up information on hoarding disorder because I have a long-time friend who has the disorder although she doesn't exhibit most of the other behaviors associated with hoarding.  I've only noticed that she procrastinates or has trouble making decisions when the situation is somehow involved directly with the hoarding.  For example, she will put off packing for a vacation until the last minute because packing involves going through all of her "stuff" and sorting and finding and generally getting it together. 

She's not a dirty or messy hoarder.  Just the opposite--everything is boxed or organized in some manner, but her house is almost literally bursting at the seams with so many boxes and tubs and collections everywhere.  The problem is--she's repeatedly complained about the issue, has asked for advice (but not actual help) with the issue, and seems to want to do something without every actually doing anything about it.  I suspect the problem has gotten so overwhelming for her she can no longer cope, but at the same time she keeps mentioning it to me and seems distressed over the issue. I've tried talking with her about it, giving suggestions, even offered to help her out if she wants, but that's as far as the discussion goes.  She then drops it, only to bring it up again at some other point. 

I don't want to tell her I don't want to hear about it because I believe she genuinely wants to do something about it, but at the same time I really don't want to hear about it if she's not willing to do something about it.  Her approach is to pull me into a discussion about the problem, and leave it at that.  I don't get the point and I don't get why she keeps bringing it up.  It doesn't seem to be some type of attention-getting behavior, but I really can't figure out what the behavior is. 

Anyone have any ideas?

[bloomie]

Catothecat - this is a tough one, for sure. Your friend seems stuck between wanting to do something about her belongings and facing down whatever emotional attachment and fantasy she may have built around them. Or is it a way of kind of reminding you of all she has? A backdoor way of displaying her things to you?

I have known two organized hoarders who call themselves "collectors". But, in both cases, the collections brought huge financial debt and beyond the rush of finding and having these "things" no joy that I could ever see as most were boxed up or under beds or displayed in ways they were never used, shared, and no one truly benefited from them besides the 'collector'. The things became an incredible burden, embarrassment, and objects of resentment to their loved ones.

In both cases as well, I came to understand that these two people were hoarding/collecting things for the life they wanted or fantasized having versus the simple, fairly isolated lives they actually lived. This is simply my observations and thoughts.

So, no one could do anything to help until the person was truly ready and willing. Sadly, neither of these people ever were in my case. Both had strong histrionic traits and huge attraction to grandiosity and the appearance of wealth. And both would step on another person's face to 'get' something they believed was worth something.

It got to where I was so physically uncomfortable around all of the clutter and things upon things, that I no longer could visit either one of their homes. In the two cases I have seen, there is this taking up of all of the resources in the family for themselves - the physical space, the financial resources, the time dealing with the things and searching for the things, talking about the things, the things took over and the humans were only important as an audience for the things.

I imagine there are many unique factors and personalities to hoarding, but one thing that seems to common is an underlying scarcity mindset.

[Catothecat]

Thanks for your insights, Bloomie.

She definitely has "scarcity" mentality as she grew up in a lower income home and now has the means to buy things she doesn't need (although she always balks at buying something she actually needs--like a new screen door, for example).  I have long suspected she buys stuff in order to show everyone how much she has and can have, implying she can "throw her money away" if she chooses.  I have also noticed in her a tendency to want to impress by association with others (i.e. telling you about her "rich" friends or relatives, or who she knows who knows someone "important," etc). These are kind of minor quibbles these days, however, since a lot of that behavior has lessened as she's gotten older.  The hoarding, however, has definitely gotten worse.

I never thought of these objects as having meaning for her as a type of fantasy life, but now that you mention the possibility, it makes sense.  She has never had any close relationships with anyone other than members of her immediate family.  She has friends, but never dated past her early 20s, never married or had kids etc.  I can see going home to those objects and collections as a substitute for emotional fulfillment she wasn't otherwise getting. No matter how many problems the "stuff" is causing for her, she'd rather have it around than not have it around. 

Perhaps in the future I should just tell her that if and when she wants to actually do something about it to let me know, and then change the subject (although I admit I find the subject kind of fascinating and I've probably been enabling those conversations).  Thanks for your input!

[Amy-Rose]

Are you 100% sure she IS a hoarder and not just an over spender who buys so much it mounts up?

My friend is a hoarder and ticks all the boxes. The flat is falling apart due to mould and damp issues for years that she never got fixed by our landlords because she was cared to let a repair man in. She never lets anyone in. She always goes to others. I only got let in once when she needed help moving a cooker and it was very cluttered and random. Example: she had this plastic barrel the size of a beet barrel just packed full of umbrellas. She had a stack of broken shoes that could no longer be used. She had to sleep on her coach as her bedroom was too full to get into. She had an industrial bag that they put concrete into at building sites, filled to the top with cheap, kids Halloween masks. Sometimes several of the same mask.
When she went to a meeting with our Housing due to complaints about our rent going up, they wanted to come and look at our repairs (as she and others claimed requests for repairs were being ignored) she made an excuse about needing to walk her dogs and literally RAN away. She then walked her dogs for 2 hours, only returning when she was sure our Housing Officers had left. She claims to have no bathroom ceiling, but why didn't she report it when it began to crumble?
That's hoarding. Not just a lot of stuff but a lot of stuff that serves no purpose, it past it's sell by date, and items to excess. Why does one person need that many umbrellas? Why would a 56 year old women with no children around need a bag full of kids Halloween masks? Why keep a wall of shoes with straps broken and heels off? Not doubt to be fixed and she's never gotten round to it. Tons of old receipts from years ago. The place smells of damp and mould as does everything that comes out of it, including her and her poor dogs. The place hasn't been painted or given decent flooring since she moved in 25 years ago. The place is not very clean and movement is hard.

My point is Hoarding needs to be diagnosed. My BPD friend had TONS of stuff. But it was well organised in labelled boxes. She wouldn't throw things away. But she had no problem letting people in and she could still use her home and every room for it's intended purposes. The home was clean. Damp free. Just very cluttered. She was not a hoarder she just liked stuff. So be careful labelling someone who's home is cluttered as a hoarder because they might not be. And it might not be a problem they need to solve. However there are stages of Hoarding and your friend could be in early stages and my friend is just more "advanced".

I'm not sure there is anything you can do. You could bring her awareness to the problem and encourage her to seek help but maybe she just likes a "full" home. If the items are still useful, still used, the bathroom, bedroom and kitchen can still be used for their intended purposes. The place doesn't smell. Have infestations, piping problems, damp, mould and so on it may not be Hoarding and you could just offend her and lose a friend. Maybe just monitor the problem for a while. But it may be a case of just minding your own business and letting her live house she likes (to lack a better way of putting it as I'm not good with words).

It's kind of you to care. I have no idea who to turn to for my friend and she wouldn't thank me anyway. I've not seen the entire house just the wall way and kitchen. She now, no longer has a cooker as she needs the space. Hoarder are amazing at having a ton of stuff and yet can still move. They seem to be balancing wizards and packing Queens.

I hope this was helpful to you.

[countrygirl]

Hi Cat of the Cat,

It is good of you to be concerned about your friend, although I understand part of the reason you're posting here is that you are frustrated because she keeps complaining and yet never does anything to change.

I must confess that I can relate to this avoidant behavior.  I sometimes feel that way when faced with a big issue:  It's just too hard and too emotionally upsetting, so I avoid doing anything.  True confessions, but maybe it will help you understand her behavior.  It is avoidant with a capital A.

A friend's mother was a hoarder, and my friend ended up hiring a psychologist to talk with her mother.  And then she found some people who would move stuff out of the house, and who were trained to deal with hoarders.  I found that interesting:  That some movers have specific training in this area.

But of course you can't hire people for a friend, because of her boundaries,  and it wouldn't work with all families either.  I couldn't have done anything like that with my parents. My father hoarded.  You can only imagine what it was like trying to do a clean up after his death.  In fact, we ended up leaving most of it for the auction co. to do.  And when we were cleaning up, we had hired someone to help us, yet after five straight days of work, more was left.  He had every nook and cranny nursing tat the seams. 

We live in scary times, and I wonder whether that has increased hoarding behavior.  Everything is frightening and uncertain, but the physicality of objects is something real and something which we can use to make ourselves feel better, until it crosses over the line and becomes a problem.

My read is that your friend sees talking to you as the first step to doing something about it.  And so, taking about you has

 come to seem like taking action.  Then she can be avoidant again.

Perhaps you should say that there are counselors who specialize in addressing hoarding behavior, and maybe that would be beneficial to her, because clearly just talking about it to you isn't working.  She knows you are happy to help her in any way possible, but clearly she needs something more.

Good luck, and keep us posted. 

[Catothecat]

I thought that, too, Amy--that she's not really a hoarder but someone with insecurities and other issues that are relieved by her endless collecting and storing.  And through most of it, she's kept her house fairly tidy.  But when I think of it, she's kept it tidy because the majority of her "stuff" is stored away in the basement or the garage or a garden shed.  It's been out of sight, out of mind.  Now, however, she's run out of room and the stuff is starting to pile up.  Here's the disturbing part--she has a roommate, someone who's lived with her for years.  The roommate had the upstairs bedroom, but because of progressive disability that now requires the use of a wheelchair, can no longer handle stairs without help.  So the friend told her to move into the downstairs bedroom which had been the friend's.  My friend moved in with her mother to be a full-time caregiver so that bedroom was free.  However, the room was so cluttered the roommate couldn't get her wheelchair into it.  And...my friend refuses to clean the room so the roommate can use it!  That's probably because she has nowhere to put the stuff and won't get rid of the junk to make room.  So now the roommate sleeps in a recliner in the living room. My friend shrugs the situation off, like she's done every time we've started working towards a solution.  She brings up the situation, then acts helpless to do anything about it. 

She's also starting to repeat the behavior at her mother's.  She's still buying stuff she doesn't need, just wants, and stashes it in the basement to keep it from cluttering the upstairs.  It's like there's a connection not being made between her behavior and the problems it causes.  But she also has an awareness that something is amiss. And trust me--if I could get her to see a therapist, I would make the effort, but she's the type of person who lives in a lot of denial so will never, ever consider the idea that she has an issue.  I definitely suspect, however, that if she wasn't previously a hoarder, she's heading that direction or maybe now is.  Honestly, I don't see her much anymore now that she spends so much time caring for her mother (she's reluctant to leave her alone).  The situation seems to be deteriorating, which is probably why she's now trying to involve me in it.

Thanks for your input!  I had honestly forgotten about the roommate issue until reading your comments, then--wow, this is  more complex than I thought...

[Catothecat]

Hi countrygirl--I've had two friends with what seemed to be avoidant personality, and they were definitely messy hoarders (one lived in a house so damaged by years of neglect and clutter that after she died it was still only worth what she'd paid for it almost 20 years before, and it was in a good, desirable neighborhood!) Their avoidant personality type was much more obvious, but in this friend that hasn't been the case because she's usually been a more sociable type and willing to help others (asked or unasked, to be honest).

But I can see the avoidant tendencies and I wonder if it's disguised because her avoidant part just involves her, personally.  With others, she's willing to jump in and help and perhaps it's a way for her to avoid her own issues (i.e., get overly involved with what someone else is doing then "not have time" for herself).  Maybe the reason she's starting to bring up her clutter concerns is because she can no longer easily avoid it (since she's now a full-time caregiver for her mother and can't spend much time away from her) yet is still seeking ways to avoid it.  This odd push-pull behavior of hers is reflective of her dilemma.

And oh yes--I know exactly what you're talking about with your father after his death!  My late MIL was a hoarder (she was the type that hung onto everything as a way of trying to stop the passage of time.  To throw anything away was to literally throw away her past no matter the condition of the object).  Getting her to seek help was pointless because she couldn't see what she was doing and the only way you could help her "clean up" was to take something she was willing to give you (and she could be reluctant to part with that object even as she was giving it to you!)  After she died my husband and I spent an entire summer cleaning her place out--every weekend there (she lived some miles away).  Probably half of what she had wasn't even worth giving to charity--it was junk to be thrown out.  What a process!

And I will give full disclosure here as well--I am not a hoarder on any level.  I dislike clutter, I dislike having stuff I feel is "in my way".  If I come across something I haven't used or worn in years, I get rid of it.  My mother was like that so she raised me to be the same way.  So these hoarding or collecting issues in others are difficult for me to understand.

Thanks for commenting!  I now have a little more insight about what is going on (which is exactly why I came here!)

[countrygirl]

Hi Catofthecat,

I do think it is possible to be avoidant in some areas, and not to be avoidant overall.  Like your friend, I am only avoidant when it comes to doing things which pertain primarily to myself, and then only in some cases.

What you say about your MIL perhaps being reluctant to give away any of her past, applied to my father as well.  Interesting, if crazy-making.  I was touched to see that he'd saved things form my childhood; but I shouldn't have been that surprised, since he did save everything!

It's great that you aren't a hoarder.  My husband and I are both book collections, and sometimes it feels as the books live here and we are their servants!  At least they can be easily stacked, so look better than a lot of things me might collect. I switched to a Kindle during the pandemic, and I thoroughly enjoy it and don't miss not having the physical copies of the books I read. 

I do feel for you, because it is so frustrating to be asked for advice and then for your advice never to be taken.  I hope this friend comes to see that she really needs to make some changes, for her own peace of mind. (As well as yours!)

[Pepin]

I was raised by a hoarder...and as long as no one went into the garage, drawers, basement, closets or sheds, the hoarding would be unknown.  The rest of the house was mostly clear of clutter but not necessarily clean.

I also have some friends that struggle with this as well...one in particular though whose house is busting at the seams.  Every time I go over I am uncomfortable.  While the house is clean, there is hardly much room to walk around.  My friend has so much stuff.  Even the garage is full and the front and back yard is exploding with plants, too.  It's very overwhelming.  I do think my friend is suffering but isn't willing to do the inner work.  There is so much that I can see and I am troubled that she cannot see.  It's very clear to me that there are some serious cognitive(?) disabilities that run in the family (not her)-- that for the life of me, have not been dealt with or diagnosed for treatment.  This alone has caused my friend major stress. 

I have been feeling lately that my friend is pulling away from me because she is irritated that I don't have the problems that she has...and I have hardly talked about my own dysfunctional FOO and my in-laws because its embarrassing -- and sharing about my MIL would make my friend see DH unfavorably.  It is such a hard place to be in.

To answer your question, hoarding occurs for many different reasons. Is it personality related?  For my father, YES.  For my friend -- I am still trying to untangle what is happening.  Also, I am sorry to admit this but I'm Gen X and I don't know any Gen X hoarders....my friend is a Boomer and my father is Silent Generation...same with MIL -- hence, the hoarding tendencies.  MIL was a pretty major hoarder as well.  For the record, both NF and MIL grew up very poor and it makes sense that they had difficulty parting with anything...but they also had some very bad emotional behaviors.     

ETA I just remembered that I also know 2 GenZ individuals that are hoarders and have some disturbing personality disordered behavior...really bad.  Ugh, and I just thought of a millennial, too.  Guess it doesn't matter what generation.  And now that I think about it, I think that hoarding and PDs go hand in hand.  As for my friend....I really don't know yet.  But if sadly feels like a yes...

[Catothecat]

Wow, your one friend might be my friend I'm talking about, Pepin!  Being unwilling to do the "inner work" seems the core of the problem, since how can I help when this friend isn't willing to help herself?  She doesn't seem capable of understanding that she might--just might--have issues.  In fact, just the opposite--she feels if she can avoid an issue, it doesn't exist.  And that's not something I can do anything about since the core issue isn't the clutter and the problems it's causing, it's with her (her passive-aggressive, avoidant behavior towards her roommate indicates just how far into denial she can get). I'm assuming that in all true hoarders the clutter and mess is just a symptom.  Which is why, for so long, I thought maybe she was just a collector, she liked having nice things because she was somewhat deprived as a child, all the stuff made her feel successful or something.  I could see the symptom but didn't recognize it as an indication of something deeper.  But then it veered into a recent issue, but it was always an issue, she just covered it up with rationalities.