Communicating with your spouse/partner about PD

[WearyHusband]

Does anyone have experience talking with your spouse/partner about PD?

I realize therapy only works (and only sometimes) if one is personally motivated to seek change.
I'm in a 20 year relationship with uPDw. I see the dynamics were there all along as I reflect back on our marriage, but the last four years have become increasingly difficult. Gaslighting, verbal/emotional abuse, stonewalling, berating, denial of sex for multiple months, amnesia regarding abusive behavior, etc.

Until six months ago, when I entered a CODA group and finally found a therapist who could help unravel the confusing reality of what was really happening in my life and marriage, my responses were typical Codependent/Caretaker behaviors - apologize over and over, hours long circular arguments, placate, erupt in anger and resentment at her irrational behavior, then finally acquiesce and give power to whatever whim or desire she expressed. I became a doormat and my self-esteem was completely eroded. We've been sexless and living in separate rooms now for almost six months, after I finally starting setting boundaries and protecting myself.

My uPDw is baffled and has no idea why I finally moved into the spare room. She can't recall her harmful behavior and denies all responsibility. She has said multiple times when she's in one of her "moods" that all our marriage problems are 100% my fault (along with lots of other nasty stuff) - then denies saying it later. It's crazy making.

I'm recovering from Codependency and realize I've taken on the Caretaker role, which I am seeking to change. Fjelstad's book, "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" was jaw droppingly convicting regarding my own caretaking role and how I need to change if I am going to stay in the relationship.

What I'm trying to decide is if I can stay in the relationship. We have four teenagers and it's complicated. I don't see harmful behavior from my uPDw toward my kids, only toward me, which is also confusing (is this really a PD I'm dealing with? Doesn't PD manifest in other relationships, too? What the heck is going on in her head?).

My wife is opposed to meeting together with a marriage therapist, though I've asked several times. When I've brought up the topic of seeking a clinical evaluation, she becomes angry and tells me I need a psych evaluation. She has asserted numerous times that I am the abusive one in the relationship, and she is the victim. When I ask her to point out how I'm abusive, she brings up a vague narrative of times we argued over the years and I raised my voice, said something hurtful, threw something, etc. (No physical abuse). I've really worked on these responses in therapy and changed a lot over the yars. Now, through FOG, I've been practicing mChill and noJADE, which have really helped a lot. I've told her I'm willing to meet with a marriage therapist so I can learn how I've been abusive, but she won't go. I've told her if I am abusive, then she needs to leave, but she won't. I've taken responsibility and apologized (repeatedly) when I've said something in anger that was hurtful. But she doesn't remember these apologies - she says that I never apologize or empathize with her, which is complete unreality.

I realize I need to NOT focus on changing her, but if she were willing to humbly seek help and work on the dynamics she's up until now been completely unaware of, it sure would help my decision making process about choosing to stay in the marriage. I'm considering if I am willing to communicate to her that I will leave the relationship if she chooses not to seek the help of an outside therapist. I'm not sure if I am willing to go through what I've experienced with her for the rest of my life. The panic attacks, anxiety, and loneliness are excruciating. I'm living in my home with someone who is more like a roommate, and I'm don't want to continue this dynamic indefinitely.

Does anyone have experience (positive or negative) with speaking to your spouse/partner about seeking help/evaluation for PD disorders?

[square]

My experience.

1) Talking about PD
If I can be grateful to myself for anything, it's that I never told my H I thought he had a PD. It was something I had to restrain myself from doing. It would have been a complete disaster.

The fact is, NOBODY would take this well. Not you. Not me. Add a PD to the situation, and it's nuclear. Telling a PD, "you're crazy" is never going to go well. Just another betrayal.

Some BPDs may accept the diagnosis from a trusted professional in the context of them trying to understand why they feel so bad. Not from a loved one.

2) Marriage counseling
We did counseling for a few sessions right before I figured out about PDs - in fact, I stopped the sessions at the discovery.

In our case, it was a disaster. I went in thinking we could have a somewhat honest discussion of our needs and hurts. I was always respectful but telling a PD that they did something wrong just isn't something that goes well, otherwise relationships with them would be quite different.

I'm not saying one can't do marriage counseling, though. That bridge is burned for me and my H, but if I turned back time, it would be interesting to try it knowing about PD. But I'm sure it would have failed either way.

In MY marriage, which is not really typical here, I would have encouraged him to share HIS frustrations (and clammed up about mine), tried to validate somehow, then tried to figure out a way forward that met my needs too, hoping the therapistvwould validate him first but then gently also validated my part. It probably would have failed, but less spectacularly.

After therapy we'd sit in the car and he'd unload on me about how I humiliated him or whatever. And trust me, I had been doing all the respectful communication, "I" statements, calm voice, no accusations, etc. It would shock me what little bits he would explode over, tiny asides I'd barely noticed.

3) Kids
Some PDs are good parents until their kids are old enough to show some independence (mine was). But you have four teens; surely by now even if they are low conflict teens there have been some stressful days, some overwhelm, some feelings hurt.

Are there perhaps more covert things about her parenting?

[notrightinthehead]

Marriage counselling went badly for me - my h used it to vent. He talked 90% of the time and the poor marriage counsellor tried the usual tools of improved communication, mutual validation, listenings skills. I felt a little bit sorry for her but also realized after several hours that this would not be helpful for me.  In fact, my NPDh used it to enforce his position.
It might well happen that if your wife agreed to go, she might be able to convince the counsellor that she is a victim. But from your post it seems that she does not see the need because it is your fault anyway. Which is good for you,  you can go to therapy and fix yourself with her permission.
I know the confusion that comes with all the denials from your partner and it led me to record conversations/fights/arguments on my phone. This way I could listen to them later again and check if I was crazy or he really had said what I remembered him saying.
As you are now medium chilling and non JADEing your home situation should be calmer.  That will be good for both of you,  better for you because it will allow you to think more clearly.  My NPDh seemed to thrive on emotional turmoil while it left me drained and confused. Maybe your spouse also gets energy from fights.
My kids definitely were affected by the dynamics of our marriage. I am glad for you that yours seem to cope well.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I broached the subject of the PD maybe 3 or 4 times.  I asked him to watch a video with Marsha Linehan on BPD.  it was done with a lot of sensitivity and compassion.  He said he would, but never did.  And he seemed to become very dense and unable to understand around anything I said about it  So I gave that up.  He seemed to be able to hear the term "emotional dysregulation" without too much trouble, so we could discuss that occasionally.  (I discussed it as a feature of the relationship rather than of him, though he'd admit at times it described him.)

I found a book which was written to help BPD relationships without mentioning BPD.  We would read out of that together.  (High Conflict Couple by Fruzzetti.)  He agreed to counseling to try to keep me in the relationship, as I was not interested in trying any longer without it.  He saw a few counselors on his own and we went to some couple's counseling. 

He would vacillate between admitting he had a problem and then reverting back to blame, projection, splitting, scapegoating.  In the end I felt he either could not or would not dedicate himself to the therapy, the self examination, the commitment to stick with it, that would have been necessary to have even a glimmer of hope. 

i don't know how helpful any of that is.  But that was my experience.  Let us know how things go . . .

[GentleSoul]

I am sorry you are living with this.

I tend to think is best not to.  My late uPD husband was also an alcoholic.    I never spoke to him about the PD side of him but we did speak of his alcoholism.  Like in your situation he switched between admitting it and then pretending it did not exist. 

Over all though I would say he used it as tool to use against me and play the victim.  Him being a "poor suffering alcoholic".  Used to excuse horrible behaviours.  I can easily see a person with a PD doing this.

With the benefit of hindsight, it was a hindrance rather than a help to speak of it.

This was earlier in our relationship, once I went into Medium Chill mode, I would not have said anything personal to him as I knew by then, it would be weaponised or used as a manipulation.

A bit like handing him a stick to (verbally) beat me with.

[Associate of Daniel]

I heard a section of an episode of Dr. Henry Cloud's radio/youtube show recently that dealt with a very similar situation. (Husband was depressed, didn't want to be involvedin or work on the marriage but didn't want to break up.

Dr. Cloud's advice to the caller (the wife) was that she tell her husband that she does not want to spend the rest of her life living in the way that her husband seemed to want to.

She should tell him that she was going to attend marriage counselling  (not individual therapy) to try to work out what she could/should do, and that since her decisions from the counselling were going to affect him, he should consider going to the marriage counselling with her.

I thought it was sound advice for the caller.  I hope you find it helpful too.

AOD

[all4peace]

In general, I tend to believe that telling other people what we think is wrong with them isn't often helpful. I know it hasn't been helpful for me in my marriage. I think it's wonderful that you're seeking therapy, as it can help you to work on the things that are within your control and it can be comforting to not be alone in your difficult situation.

You ask if a PD would behave one way with kids versus a spouse. Is having a label helpful to you? Is it possible to figure out what you do or don't want without a label? Would you be able to care for yourself within your household and family even if you never found out if she has a PD or not? The book Nonviolent Communication has been really helpful for me in learning how to identify my needs, and how it's helpful to express them, and then finding a place to grieve the losses of what may never change, over and over again. Or, as you mention, you may at some point decide you want to end this relationship, and then face what that means at that time.

It sounds like you have a lot to work through. I'm glad you're seeking support here.

[WearyHusband]

I appreciate the responses here.

all4peace, I've pondered what you asked about if/why it's important for me to have a "label". I've lived for so long in the FOG of our relationship, and I guess I'm looking for a strain of hope not only that I can change (which I am - taking responsibility for myself and what I CAN do), but I'm also looking for some avenues to rebuild my marriage with healthier dynamics - and I don't think that's possible unless my wife also participates in that process. I don't want to live in a marriage where I'm constantly needing to protect myself and just survive.
As I self-reflect, I guess I'm looking for two things:'1) Someone to validate what I've been through - because so many people have not understood and I've listened to advice over the years that has only exacerbated the dysfunction and caused me to slip further and further into a pit of completely degraded self-esteem. "Be a more kind husband." "You need to empathize with her reality." "You're overreacting." "Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you because you're too needy." "All the problems in a marriage flow from the husband as the head of the house."

I'm being vulnerable here. I realize  my reason for "seeking someone to validate what I've been through" is probably a level of dysfunction all its own - needing someone outside myself to validate my reality. My father was most likely a uNPD and I married someone with similar qualities (good ones and dysfunctional ones). I've lived for so long with my uPDw's view of reality trumping mine, and I've given in to it over and over and over. I've given her so much power in the relationship, and I am changing. I won't replay the details here that I've experienced that I've listed in other posts, but it has been exhausting and extremely painful for a long time. In seeking outside validation, I guess I'm trying to alleviate my own fears I still have that I am the delusional, crazy one.

2) The second reason for a "label" or diagnosis is the hope that she would get some healing for herself regarding whatever trauma created these altered personality/brain functions. She is an amazing lady, a great mom, a loyal friend, and incredibly smart and kind when she's in her normal state of mind. If someone had a liver problem, I'd hope they'd go to a liver specialist who could "label" what was happening to prescribe a course of treatment. In trying to decide if I can stay in the relationship, I don't think I want to live out the rest of my life in the dynamics of what I've experienced. If my wife was willing to work on herself (splitting, projecting, mood swings, verbal/emotional abuse, gaslighting, selective amnesia, etc) I would gladly walk the long path together, even with all its challenges. If she's not willing to look at herself (and stop blaming me/projecting) I don't know how long I have the strength to endure, or if I'm willing to live the rest of my life as a nurse in marriage.

I welcome feedback here regarding my reasoning. I'm new to this forum, and I'm still in the "holy sh*t" I finally found other people who are going through similar things to what I'm going through." It felt so good to discover I'm not alone and others have experienced similar FOG dynamics in their relationship with a PD (undiagnosed or not). It may be that I need to let go of the need for a diagnosis or a label. I'm in my own process of healing and figuring out how to exit the Caretaker/CoDependent role in the relationship.

[Poison Ivy]

Your wife getting some healing for herself regarding whatever trauma created these altered personality/brain functions is an admirable wish on your part, but even if your wife gets healing, she won't necessarily stop the PD behaviors.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Weary,

I've been where you are regarding yourself.  Many of us here have been/are where you are with your uPDwife and kids.  You wrote:

" She is an amazing lady, a great mom, a loyal friend, and incredibly smart and kind when she's in her normal state of mind. If someone had a liver problem, I'd hope they'd go to a liver specialist who could "label" what was happening to prescribe a course of treatment. In trying to decide if I can stay in the relationship, I don't think I want to live out the rest of my life in the dynamics of what I've experienced. If my wife was willing to work on herself (splitting, projecting, mood swings, verbal/emotional abuse, gaslighting, selective amnesia, etc) I would gladly walk the long path together, even with all its challenges."

If your uPDw was not a uPD and had a liver problem, everyone in all 5 concentric circles of relationships would experience your wife in normal non PD ways, as she deals with her liver problem.  Her husband Weary (circle 1) would know the intimate feelings and full details regarding her diagnosis, plus her personal struggles and doctors details with the illness as she confides in his ultra-close relationship.  Her children (circle 2) would know mom has a liver problem, but she would probably shield them from the deeper concerns and details of her dealing with it.  Her closest friends, siblings and parents (circle 3) would know the more adult details of the condition and she would share some of her emotional struggles to gain some emotional support from them.  Her coworkers and acquaintances that she regularly interacts with (circle 4) will know she's battling the condition and offer general support.  The grocery store clerk that she sees once a week (circle 5) will probably not know she suffers from a liver condition. 

I consider that example, a normal example of how non-PD relationships play out.  True personality disorders are an underdevelopment in the brain at a very young age, so healing from them is like you hoping/asking for development to now occur as an adult.  You might as well consider it similar to desiring she would grow 5 inches taller.  Some rare individuals go through DBT and learn to control (self-reflect) on their behaviors and the non's may see less of the emotional drama/torture, and some medicate in hopes of reducing the symptoms they experience (anxiety, depression etc).  But none of them cure an underdevelopment. 

So, putting a name to it, when there is no self-reflection happening in MrsWeary, only gives your uPDw a medical excuse for her behaviors (not her fault) and a badge of diagnosis to sweep under all the drama, gaslighting, silent treatment, sexual refusal and so on, and then also makes Weary the asshole for what she experiences from Weary, as Weary uses the toolbox to protect himself.  In doing all this potential exposure of PD, Weary only ends up exposing all the private knowledge advantages (what I call battle plans) he has in protecting himself and then MrsWeary is in an even greater position to control and manipulate her husband to get the supply her PD needs. 

You stated she's an "amazing lady", a "loyal friend", and "kind when she's in her normal state".  I'm betting that circle 3 and 4 see those traits often/all the time, but circle 1 very rarely.  Therefore, if that is the case, ask yourself if there IS self-control happening by your UPDw, that enables that backasswardness in relationship interaction to occur.  If yes, the only self-awareness going on, is the PD masking their true selves to circles 3-5, while #1 gets to see what's behind the curtain of facade; the real manipulation that provides supply of control, power and drama that a uPD needs to hide themselves from themselves. 

Therefore, in conclusion, I believe communicating with your spouse about PD is an exposure of battle plans that will make your life even more difficult and also consider it proactive (unbaited) JADE. 

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

 

[WearyHusband]

SoT, all I have to say is, "Selah." I think you know what that means. Thank you for your timely and beneficial reflections. I'm grateful.

[bat123]

     Hi, WearyHusband.  I can very much relate to where you are at.  I've been with my uNPD spouse for 25 years.  It's been quite a journey.  I spent years trying to analyze and understand him, and more recently I'm trying to shift to examining myself, and why I was vulnerable to getting involved in this type of relationship.  My spouse is charming, charismatic and driven.   He's successful at work, has friends, and in many ways is an involved, supportive husband and father.  But when he gets "triggered," which is often, he feels entitled to act out and become abusive, mostly toward me.  Sometimes it's like living a double life— there's the good part of the relationship, where things feel comfortable and normal, but it's like I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.  And when it does, it's terrible and depressing, and I feel trapped and alone.
     We've seen multiple marriage counselors over the years.  There's been some short term improvements but they never last.  I truly don't think he's capable in internalizing any of the recommendations in counseling.  He'll agree on the surface, but deep down he continues to be perfectly willing to mistreat and abuse me if it serves his purposes.  I just don't think these personality types have much capacity to be introspective or to feel the empathy that would motivate them to change.
     At the end of the day, I believe that the best we can do is to learn strategies to manage the relationship, with the full understanding that it will never provide us with the safe, unconditional love that we deserve.  Or we leave.  I don't think that telling them we think they have a PD will help.  It would probably make it worse.  Really, any strategy that attempts to change them by providing them with "new information" is doomed to fail. 

[SonofThunder]

SoT, all I have to say is, "Selah." I think you know what that means. Thank you for your timely and beneficial reflections. I'm grateful.

You are very welcome my brother.  We are on the same journey.  There are tremendous insights to be gleaned (and also retained) in the silence. Two eyes, two ears, but only one mouth; we are Wisely designed. That pause in considering what you are learning, while looking back at your experiences to gain revelation and applying as you carefully move forward, will be your constant friend along the journey.  Education and application is crucial.

In addition, we here at Out of the FOG are walking the path with you, scattered along its route in varying degrees of completion.  You are in good company. 

SoT