Is Their Behavior REALLY all that voluntary?

[Wardog]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The DSM-5 describes it as a DISORDER, an abnormal way that a person deals with the people and world around them. As we study and research it, we find out the generally accepted causes, mostly "nurture" related.  Even knowing this, and having known and become very familiar with my "patient's" parents, and seeing how they have affected her over the years, it's very hard for me not to think that every frustrating and crazymaking thing she does is "on purpose," and done with specific, malicious intent toward me.

   I wonder though, knowing that my "patient" was raised by narcissists, if it's really right to be angry with her over her behavior. I realize now, that I unknowingly played a part over the years in the development of her condition.  The onset of NPD is usually in early adulthood. Knowing what I know now, I recognize that the things I saw as just "quirks" 45 years ago were actually red flags. As her symptoms developed, and our relationship became more and more difficult over the years, I blamed myself as not being a good husband. In the '80s and '90s especially, and even now, the answer to marital difficulties for a husband was to "love her more," to "be a better husband," to "learn her love languages," and so on. All of which is good advice, I think, if you have a normal wife.  With a narcissistic wife, however, those things just solidify her belief that YOU are the problem, and she is blameless. It took me 29 years to realize that she had a mental disorder, and that all my efforts to fix myself, and later on to fix her, were just flailing in the dark.

   So I wonder now if it's really fair to think of her as an opponent, or like some think, some kind of "demon." It's very hard not to, as you all know. There are times, though, when I see her pain in her eyes. When my daughter and son-in-law and I are sitting in the front room having a conversation, and she walks in and the conversation ends and everyone suddenly has other things to do. When neither of our daughters or our granddaughter want to go shopping with her. It's like the literature says, her behavior causes the rejection she fears most.  It seems sometimes like blaming someone with Alzheimer's or some other delusional disorder for their sometimes crazymaking behavior.

   It really seems to me that NPD is as much a delusional disorder as it is behavioral. The main delusion being that acting the way she does is somehow right and proper I think of my wife now as my patient, as well as my client. Due to her medical conditions, (the ones actually verified by doctors) I am her caregiver as well as her caretaker. Other than dealing with her, I have a good life for myself with reading, playing my guitar, hobbies, and social activities. 

   I realize that some of you may be dealing with physical abuse, or extreme emotional abuse, and I am not defending that kind of behavior at all.  I'm just throwing my own experience out there to get other opinions. 

[square]

I read an interesting book a while back, published around 1910-ish. It described cases of lying and malingering that I think today would be labelled cluster B personality disorders (plus some Munchausen's).

They didn't really give these cases a unified label, but one common descriptor was "borderline," sometimes in more detail as "borderline delusional."

So it appears that historically we have observed the "borderline delusions" in such individuals as a primary feature of their illness, distinguished from those who had more bizarre delusions of demons and such.

How much of their behavior is a choice? Sort of a chicken and egg question. Yes, they can control their behavior to the same extent you and I can. But the behavior is driven by disordered ideas, values, and perceptions.

So the behavior we see follows from that. Yes, they could try harder not to be so ___ but they will still believe and feel and percieve what they do.

The resentments and so on will still be there.

At some point we can accept that they behave and think how they do, regardless of whether they have 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, or 0% control.

We can only control ourselves. And one thing that is in our control is to let go of hope they will change.

[NBRiverGuy]

It all depends on what you are willing to accept as a part of your marriage. I knew for years that my wife had some social problems, but I did not realize (probably through willful ignorance) that she had a personality disorder until a friend pointed it out a couple of months ago, and we've been together for 24 years. Like you, I thought I could change my own behavior to help her, and a big part of that was trying to be more sympathetic to her constant self-pity and self-victimization about her childhood trauma. Turns out, I was just feeding her narcissistic supply. Also, like you, I have a full life outside of my marriage. Lots of great friends, family, hobbies, I enjoy my job, etc. The problem is, there is always this dark cloud hanging over all of that and I have decided that I don't want to live that way anymore. She is not outwardly abusive towards me at home, but it has gotten to the point that the tension is palpable any time she is around people that I care about and that is not fair to them. Again, like you, when she walks in a room, the conversation stops and everyone finds a reason to leave. For the most part, I have simply chosen not to include her in my social life, but that is not enough for me when I am looking at what I need out of a marriage. I do care for her and feel sorry for her, but pity is not love. Only you know if that is enough for you.

[Poison Ivy]

We can only control ourselves, we can let go of hope that another person will change, and once we have let go of that hope, we can decide what to do in the future.

[moglow]

I don't know that it's voluntary because there seems to be some ability to pick and choose situations and audiences. In that, I don't believe it's entirely INvoluntary /outside their control either. Ex: I've witnessed my mother on more than one occasion in full on face contorting rage, answer a ringing telephone with the Good Fairy voice and inflections, only to hang up the phone [after an actual conversation!] and rejoin her rage as if there'd been no interruption at all. It showed me there is some control, and that she absolutely chose at times to not contain herself. I also watched her in public a few times where something happened or was said that I knew she did.not.like, and she maintained that charming facade just long enough to get herself within the confines of a car before exploding. 

Like your wife, mother is blameless in all situations. Someone *made* her do this or feel that, all without her input or control. She's relentless with her pursuit of that blame and will rewrite history as hard and as often as needed to make it work for her. We've had occasions where she's been confronted with her behavior and she went from one to another to another trying to get someone, anyone to "pick her side" [her words] rather than listening to their truth. Delusional indeed.

[SonofThunder]

Hello Wardog,

I believe PD's are undeveloped from early childhood. I prefer to look at their patterns of actions & reactions as 'instinctive' behaviors & traits based on the level of their development in a childhood situation where they had to learn to cunningly fight to emotionally survive.

Stealing from the animal kingdom; instinct is an innate, typically-fixed pattern of behavior in response to certain stimuli.

My opinion is that there are 5 concentric circles of relationships in a persons life; circle 1 being the closest in relationship and 5 being most distant.  In my current stage of life my PDspouse is the only one in circle 1 alongside me. My kids in circle 2, FOO in 3 and so on. The guy I see regularly running the cash register at the grocery store is circle 5. 

My PDspouse displays certain behaviors that are relevant to the circle.  My kids and I in circle 1 and 2 know a Mrs SoT that is very different than circle 3. Circle 4 and 5 a bit different than circle 3. 

My opinion is a PD's motive is self-feeding and circles 1-5 are all a part of the total emotional nutritional diet the PD believes they need to fill up the 'self'. I believe that motive is everything when considering experienced behaviors. While circles 1 and 2 are catching total hell, 3 is getting just a glimpse of the dark side (only if the PD is cornered) but mainly sees calm and smiles. 4 and 5 just think they've met heaven on two legs.

Therefore I choose 'instinct' vs 'voluntary' as these mix of different behaviors, catered to the circle number, come naturally for the PD who has honed their craft since childhood.

SoT

[Cat of the Canals]

Ex: I've witnessed my mother on more than one occasion in full on face contorting rage, answer a ringing telephone with the Good Fairy voice and inflections, only to hang up the phone [after an actual conversation!] and rejoin her rage as if there'd been no interruption at all. It showed me there is some control, and that she absolutely chose at times to not contain herself. I also watched her in public a few times where something happened or was said that I knew she did.not.like, and she maintained that charming facade just long enough to get herself within the confines of a car before exploding.

I've witnessed the same with mine. That's how I know that at least some of the behavior is a "choice."

Regardless of how much of it is voluntary/involuntary, I view it in the same way I view something like addiction. I understand and have empathy for the trauma that caused it, but causation or "whose fault" is really beside the point. I will not stand idly by while someone abuses me or others, I don't care what the reasoning is. All adults are subject to a certain level of accountability and responsibility for their own behavior. If they "can't help it" they need to seek professional assistance.

[Jsinjin]

I see my OCPD spouse as trapped.   It's very sad and very difficult for me to deal with but she can't shake it any more than she could decide to be 6' tall (she is 5'4").   In this disorder, for whatever the reason is that she has it, she fully believes her moral code and set of rules and order on the world are the only way that anyone should behave and that allowing any crack in that set of absolutes is the single worst thing that could happen.   I'm paraphrasing but the hierarchy and set of ordered constructs she has allows for no "gray" areas and regardless of relationship or harmony in life the rules must be followed.  It's not like a spouse "doesn't like it when their spouse drinks to excess at a party"; if I even as her spouse park in the "no parking" zone at the high school after hours to unload band equipment from my truck she is angry enough that after asking me to.move three times and me saying "I'll get to it, it's no big deal I'm just unloading with the other band parents" she called the police on me to get me to move.   Then she was upset that the police didn't consider the action a problem. 

In her world of OCPD, that rule of "no parking" means absolute.  There was no exception and someone had to fix this error.   In her mind the infraction was the same level as a felony level crime.   

This extends to putting a spoon in the fork tray in the silverware drawer-it should not happen and results in anger and screaming.

But unlike someone with OCD who washes their hands 5 times any time they touch anything, that OCD person knows they have a problem and often reaches a point they want help.

Alcoholics can reach rock bottom and can feel terrible about drinking or breaking sobriety.

OCPD personality disorder people see that they are the vanguards of what is right and can not let go of that assured correctness.   There is no other way of thinking.   You believe in her way or you are wrong.

One of the worst fights (and I got out of the car and walked home) was when I said that I "thought cyclists in a group should let long lines of cars go past when the cars pile up behind them on a 2 lane road"

Obviously the cyclists have the right of way, and obviously they are allowed to ride.  My thoughts was my own that if I were riding and there was a row of 30 cars right up my back tire I would pull off and let them past.

Now I didn't say this to the cyclists, didn't ask them to pull over, didnt even want to argue the point and wasn't going to honk at them or try to change the rule.

Her anger and violent outburst at my opinion on this and my thought in the face of the legality of the situation was so bad and so loud that I had to just get out of the car.   She still sees me as completely wrong and hasn't forgotten or forgiven me for that thought and opinion.

To her the rule of law is absolute and the code she lives by must come first. 

I don't see that as her choice even though it technically is.   I'm not at all making excuses.   I just know that in times of things that are "gray" or "not fair"she breaks down in sobbing and can't emotionally handle the activity.

An example was a concert where I had VIP tickets.   The VIP ticket took us to a separate line where we were wisked past the main lines into a gated area and space for catering and other stuff.   Because we skipped the lines, metal detectors and other stuff she broke down and I had to work incredibly hard to get her to stay because what we were doing wasn't "fair" to everyone who had to wait in line and be normal.   It was the opposite of entitled.   And I don't think she has a choice technically for her emotions and adherence to this type of feeling or moral code.

[Rebel13]

I've been thinking about this question quite a bit lately and I think I like the framing that Lindsay Gibson uses in her book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents."  This categorization is for the children, but we're all someone's child, right?  The framing is that there are "externalizers" and "internalizers".  Externalizers are the people for whom everything is someone else's fault.  Internalizers are more likely to blame themselves and, as a result, are more willing and able to seek help to change themselves and how they react to the world.  Some days I almost think this distinction is more important than whether someone has a diagnosable PD!  Because, for example, I used to have some of the beliefs and behaviors (though less extreme) as Jsinjin's wife.  I thought there was a very black and white set of rights and wrongs in the world and breaking the rules would lead to terrible consequences.  Eventually, though, I realized the consequence I feared was the reaction of my mother, who doesn't have a PD diagnosis that I know of, but very definitely qualifies as emotionally immature and as an externalizer!  Once I had that epiphany, and then its corollary -- "my mom can't punish me for breaking her rules anymore" -- I was able to work on changing my rigid behaviors and expectations.  So I have concluded that the ability/willingness to change rigid, problematic beliefs and behaviors that are distressing to the people I love, is very possibly more important than the beliefs and behaviors themselves.

[SeaBreeze]

I very inadvertently triggered my stbx uNPDh's childhood trauma early in our relationship. But, he had control over how he chose to react and handle those triggers. He chose to abuse me rather than work on himself and get help for his issues. At some point, we have to stop giving our PD partners a sympathetic free pass and protect ourselves.

[Jsinjin]

At some point, we have to stop giving our PD partners a sympathetic free pass and protect ourselves.

Agreed SeaBreeze

I'm just at a point where I'm learning to understand my spouse and that no amount of my work on her will change her behavior in terms of the PD.   I can get minor concessions such as not yelling at me or throwing things when she is not feeling in control but I can't ever convince her that her hoarding or absolute adherence to all rules, all truth and all specifics is not right all the time.

[Cat of the Canals]

no amount of my work on her will change her behavior in terms of the PD.

Nor should it be. That is a job best left for a mental health professional.

The thing my NPD/BPD mother and your OCPD wife have in common is that they believe they are 100% righteous in their behavior, despite everyone else around them saying, "No, your behavior is inappropriate and damaging." How is that not entitlement?

[Jsinjin]

cat of canals, thank you.  It is very much entitlement that she be allowed to contineu and I'm chipping away at it.   But I can't change her view.  That I've learned.   She effectively can't be saved from the ocpd thoughts barring a miraculous gift which i do pray for.   I do have to live though.   

I was a boy scout and went backpacking several times at this difficult camp called Philmont in New Mexico.   Nearly 40 years after my first trip I took my son and we did a difficult trek.   I shared with him that there will be times that are incredibly difficult.   There will be rain, hail, cold, exhaustion,frustrations with other scouts, hunger, fatigue.  But later there will be memories that somehow wipe away the times you spent shivering and hunkererd down on the side of an exposed ridge with lightning and hail crashing all around.   And you'll remember the best times.

My spouse and I have laughter, three good kids, health without cancer or heart disease, retirement and I can draw and write and run and eat and drink.   

And this is the one person in my life who has been there longest and despite my forgetting to wear shoes to work or sitting through church solving math problems in my head she has never left me.   I have to leave myself notes on the steering wheel that say "bring wife home from party" because i am that lost and she has always stayed.   

I'm not letting her yell at me anymore and her fears and OCPD behaviors can her hers but I am taking over my life and my things slowly.  It's unconventional; I had to buy a second house for myself to have space.    But that's positive too.   This sub forum is for choosing to live and working on it.   For OCPD that takes unconventional.   If I could cure her fears and irrational behaviors I would.   But I can't so far.

[NarcKiddo]

Someone *made* her do this or feel that, all without her input or control.

Yes. This. My mother has blamed her "nerves" for everything, since we were children. Popped valium like sweeties when that was regularly prescribed back in the day. And now everyone is expected to tiptoe around her for fear of upsetting her nerves. And of course because she is our motherrrrr she "cares about her little ones" (we are in our 50s!) so everything we do that she disapproves of (or takes the limelight off her) results in her working out a way for it to affect her nerves and thus require us to adjust our behaviour.

Yes, she had a traumatic childhood. Yes, she had an abominable mother. So did I. But I am not going around holding everyone hostage to my nerves.

[keepmoving]

This thread brought up a few interesting ideas for me about personal responsibility, particularly to how accountable the PD is for their behavior and their treatment of others. Are they an autonomous individual who should be held fully accountable for the damage they csause? Or are they someone suffering from the throws of traumatic delusions? If they are, then they should be treated as such.

And are we as non's supposed to tell them this? Convince them to seek treatment etc? Let them reach rock bottom and hope they seek help? Or accept their cyclical trauma as a part of them and live our lives?

I think we'd all like to show them the empathy they were never shown and put their outbursts and trauma responses to the side and focus on the good times, but the truth is that they have done both things, behaved reprehensibly as well as lovingly, and that is the difficult part. If we measure them by their best times vs their worst times, we aren't seeing them in their whole as a person. Whether or not we or they like it, this includes the damaging way their trauma expresses itself.

The difficulty with maintaining a connection with a PD is that they are who they are, they feel threatened they attack, they rationalize in circles and communicate and act in a way to avoid the source of whatever transference they've placed on something, for example, passing other people by in a vip line. They live in this realm of symbols that we don't see and that mean very specific things to them. The hard part is to understand that we as non's are not equipped to work through that for or with them, not only because we ourselves represent one of the symbols that have specific meaning to them, but also because we are not psychologists who have many years of training to redirect them and unravel the trauma, and that is really what they need, to face the trauma with a professional.

No amount of them yelling at us or us not leaving, will heal their wounds, their wounds are trapped inside of them and their story lines will continue to cycle until they are understood by them, usually incited by a deep need to change (for example hitting rock bottom). Until then, we will be hurt for no reason other than our proximity to them and what we represent for them, and our desire to see them as a fully autonomous individual, which they can never be until they integrate their trauma.

[square]

Our responsibility to PDs is exactly the same as to anyone else.

We are responsible for managing our own behavior.

We ask others in a clear, healthy, and centered manner for what we want or need.

It's up to them how they respond.

And we can either accept their response or lack thereof, or implement boundaries to whatever extent we deem necessary.

That's it. We're not only not responsible for diagnosing them, we should not, any more than we would appreciate someone doing that to us.

If someone is rude or not helping or whatever else, we ask them to change. And if the answer is no, we do something else, whether simply accepting it, meeting our need in another way, or withdrawing a little or a lot from the relationship.

It's a loving thing to let people set their own course. If their course crashes into yours, you can adjust away from them. It's not for us to try to "make" them be our definition of healthy.

[Jsinjin]

I agree with all of these sentiments and thoughts.   I absolutely believe that no one should endure abuse.   PDs may or may not even know they are abusive.   Or they may know it but rationalize it.  What I know I can control and handle for the rest of my life is to not stand for abuse and to walk away from it.   I used to care about her feelings on this type of stance but I've learned in the last year that it's the only way I can stay safe and mentally healthy.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Are they an autonomous individual who should be held fully accountable for the damage they csause? Or are they someone suffering from the throws of traumatic delusions?

Yes and yes. Everyone is responsible for his own behavior. Whether it's their fault or to what degree or how much control they have isn't really the issue. The insight that they may not have full control is a double-edged sword. It helps us to not take the damaging behaviors personally, but it also sometimes leads people to inappropriately soften boundaries and overlook things that really are helping nobody to tolerate. My two cents.

[keepmoving]

It's not for us to try to "make" them be our definition of healthy.

I agree with this, we are in no position to impose our definitions onto someone. Though I would like to think that society imposes a definition of healthy/ethical behavior (no abuse, no theft, etc). The issue is that the PD, in my experience, behaves most objectively unethically behind closed doors.

I wonder if PD's were framed and treated more so as relational/emotional disability or something, there would be a way to offer more assistance to them (like within the healthcare system I guess), without taking on that plight ourselves.
Because while they can present as functional people, I think anyone who has lived with one knows that behind closed doors there is a stew of their struggles permeating. I don't know, just an idea.

I have been NC with my uPD father for some years and it has greatly improved my life. I have a friend that presents some similar pd traits. Maybe I'm still in denial about the fact that there's nothing I can do for them.

The insight that they may not have full control is a double-edged sword. It helps us to not take the damaging behaviors personally, but it also sometimes leads people to inappropriately soften boundaries and overlook things that really are helping nobody to tolerate.

Completely agree.
My father would actually tell me the traumatic events of his past and point to them as a reason for whatever awful thing he just did. Which may have been true, but also definitely softened my boundaries and caused me to overlook things.

[Cascade]

I have also wondered if my pdh's behaviour was completely voluntary. When my husband says or does things that hurt or upset me, I wonder if it's like an itch that he feels he has to scratch or it will drive him crazy. So while he could control himself if he really tried, I think he is compelled by something inside of himself to scratch that itch.