Husband is a terrible gifter. Advice?

[Call Me Cordelia]

I have spent twelve years of marriage saying, "I would like a gift that you have thoughtfully selected for me and wrapped attractively without me coaching you every step." Every holiday and birthday my gift has been an issue. I have gotten some real clunkers. Including a vegetable for our anniversary. Which DH admits now is bad. He has no clue about gifts and has a real hangup against learning this skill. I do not believe my husband actually has a PD, because he is capable of self-reflection and change, although much slower than myself. I attribute it more to his temperament than to any actual malice. But the gift thing is hurtful to me every single time. My birthday wasn't very long ago. I dropped a very obvious hint as to what I might like, which he did pick up on. I felt like I threw him a bone. I refuse to just outright say, "Here go buy me this." That is just checking an obligation box to me, and I'd just rather not do that. It feels super fake to me. Ideally I'd rather not give hints at all, but I know that's possibly unrealistic and I'm trying to meet halfway. Ok, so he got me a decent thing this time. But the way it was given! He took a box and some tissue paper from the GARBAGE and said something like, "Happy birthday, dear. I hope you're satisfied with this." It wasn't with our kids around, celebratory moment, just kind of thrust it at me while I was doing a job. I felt really the opposite of loved in that moment.

We had yet another argument about it last night, as Christmas approaches. I've been working hard on our kids' and his gifts. Christmas is hard and our kids' Christmas gifts are 100% on us. They receive nothing that is not from DH and me because we are NC/almost NC with all extended family. And really, it's all me, because DH is super weird about gifts. (See above.) It seemed a good moment to share how I felt on my birthday, because he asked what I would like for Christmas. He turns it around on me and says my standards are too high and I'm determined to find fault. No, I just would prefer you not raid the literal trash to wrap up my birthday present. We have wrapping paper. You don't even have to buy it. I feel like this is actually abusive. After I had planned out gifts for all the other six people in our household and purchased most of them, it's too much for me to expect DH to do the same on a much smaller scale? Bullshit. He sees what I do, and how I consider what the person enjoys, and include him in discussing various options for the children. The planning ahead and selection process is all part of the gift. We didn't reach a good conclusion at all. And then he wanted sex. Which is difficult for me anyway while breastfeeding, and it's just one more chore. Ugh. No. Again with the feeling not loved. Sorry if that's TMI.

I see we both have issues here relative to our PD upbringings. We are both triggered. Seeing his part of the problem helps it hurt a bit less, but now that I've learned to express my hurt and ask for very specific changes, and being patient over a period of years, and still getting pushed back in this crazy way leaves me.  Gifting was very passive-aggressive in his FOO. Usually his PD parents gave something that they wanted him to have, that fit their version of who he was. Or occasionally something that ended up just getting commandeered for the parent's use. So he says presents are dumb, understandably enough. It feels like a trap to him. Part of my part of the problem is I simply don't know what it's like to receive a gift that was thoughtfully selected from somebody who knows me intimately. I do know it's possible, because I regularly deliver it for my own DH and kids. (He does appreciate his gifts, btw. And I give them sincerely and actually enjoy gifting him.) I really wish for that, and the only person from whom I can reasonably hope for that is DH.

But is it possible for him? I believe he could if he would put in the work. I do worry that if DH DID finally achieve basic decent gift giving level, I'd just be bitter that it took him so long. I'm stuck between accepting limitations on the one hand and accepting bad treatment on the other. I mean, the torn box? Holy self-sabotage. I don't want yet another Christmas to be poisoned by this. DH would really rather forget the whole thing. I want a present, from my husband, darn it! Like normal people! And it took me long enough to be clear on what I actually want that I really don't want to just give up on it. He agrees that it's normal to give one's wife a Christmas present, but thinks that expecting him to come up with an idea and wrap it and put a dang bow on it and have it ready under the tree Christmas morning is just completely unrealistic. 

Somebody will probably bring up giving gifts to myself. I feel about that. Self compassion is a big hurdle for me, and it's probably appropriate that I learn to treat myself better, including spending money on myself. But I feel that it's a separate issue, if that makes sense.

[losingmyself]

I completely understand. I would not get a gift at all from my H if I didn't point to something and say "This is what you can get me for Christmas" Then he buys it. I got my present this weekend on a shopping trip.
I don't know if he's ever given me a gift.
Gift figuring out, buying, wrapping, is all on me. But, Oh boy! I had better not give the impression that I picked it out by myself when presenting it! He needs all the praise and thanks. I don't even care, as long as the person likes their gift. But there's usually bitching because I say something that makes him think that I'm taking all the credit. He paid for half. That was his participation.
I do think it comes from his FOO, because his F will complain about every gift given him. I have given up and will present him with a gift card to his favorite store. I hate giving gift cards! Sometimes I think "Why don't we all sit in a circle, and take out a $20, and pass it around? "
I enjoy it, but you're right, it would be nice to get a thoughtful gift after 10 years. He would have no idea what I would want.
So, I didn't give you any advice there. I guess I just gave up, and stopped expecting anything, that way I'm not disappointed. I'll just do what I did this year, "Here. Get me this" I really do love what I picked out!

[Fae Greenwood]

Some people are just bad at gifting and/or receiving and need a hand. You say you think he's not PD. Here is what I did many years ago. It didn't work well for uNPDh because of his , well, NPD, but it did work well with my normal kids and may be of value to you. My then-8-year-old DD wanted a pony for Christmas, a real pony to keep in the backyard. She could ask Santa for anything and she was asking for a pony and Santa gave you whatever you wanted, which wasn't gonna happen with a damn pony. I suggested she make a  list. The first list had about 40 items on it. Nope, not thoughtful at all but just more selfish grabbing. Nope.

So, The List was born. It would be a minimum of 5 items and a maximum of 10 items. You may receive everything on the list or possibly nothing on the list but you were making suggestions of what you'd like and the suggestions could be general or very specific down to the store, aisle, and packaging description. You could have 1 "pony" item that would be AWESOME but unlikely (like a live pony) because I wanted them to have the freedom to want whatever they wanted.  Then up to 9 more items that were more reasonable. It was an exercise in thoughtfulness and an effort on my part to make gifts a part of the Christmas holiday instead of the entirety of it. My first list was a diamond bracelet (pony item) followed by 3 or 4 items in my husband's budget and then a few more items in kid budget range. Kid's lists also had a "pony" item and included a few low-budget items for sibling guidance. They still, as adults, use a similar system today. I'd suggest asking to make lists for each other because "dear one we're not telepathic and I could use some help." If he still gets it wrong, then it is deliberate and now you'll know for sure. My kids loved The List and it even worked for uNPDh for a year until he realized that he could manipulate it into more supply and used it as "what to not buy for Fae ever" and you all know that's no exaggeration. He buys me something that he pictures me using in the tasks he's appointed for me or something that is close but never quite right. Now I just take what he gives me and quietly buy my own item. This year's birthday gift from him was a bottle of scotch (which I like) in a brand I dislike (which he knows and no it wasn't cheaper or easier for him to buy) so it's being slowly poured down the drain while I enjoy my Nintendo Switch and Animal Crossing I bought for myself.

[Andeza]

If I didn't have a very well fleshed out amazon wish list, I would never get a darn thing I wanted. It's nothing against my Dh, who is otherwise an incredible man that I'm happy to be married to, it's just not how his brain is wired. I'm also lucky if I get a halfway decent gift bag with the present. But, in this family, we are very upfront about what we want, no hints. I tried hints the whole first year we were married and he sat me down and we had a very genuine conversation about expectation vs capability. Since then we've also put a good chunk of marriage counseling books under our belts and they were all fairly similar in this regard. In other words, some people suck at hints. Since we got that out of the way, it's been much better. I give him a gift either from his list, or that I KNOW he will enjoy because it fits his interests, and he does the same. But I am careful to walk into Christmas and my birthday with zero expectations, and that way I'm never disappointed. Usually the gift he gives is in a gift bag, with no paper or bows... and I'm lucky if he remembers to put my name on it (in his case, there is old brain damage affecting memory, so I am generous with the small things).

Also, Fae, I adore that idea. I think I'll talk it over with Dh.

[blunk]

Oh my, Call Me Cordelia, can I relate to this post! My bpdxh hated holidays, birthdays, etc., but Christmas was definitely the worst.

I, like you, put a lot of thought into what I got for him each year. I researched, shopped, wrapped, and loved to see him enjoy his gift(s). On the other hand, he would get me things like shampoo, conditioner, body wash, deodorant (I seriously wondered after a while if he thought that I smelled bad). And to add insult to injury, he would whine about how much he hated wrapping gifts to the point where I finally said something like, fine whatever then don't even bother. So, he didn't...and I got a plastic shopping bag filled with toiletries. And, believe me, it was never about cost, I would have been happy with anything as long as there was some thought behind it...heck a pair of socks or a dang keychain from someplace we had been would have been better. I cried so much that day that he promised next Christmas would be better.

The next year he ended up getting me a watch, it was really beautiful...except that in the 18 or so years we had been together at that point I had never once worn a watch. That, combined with the fact that I had my credit card set up to inform me when a purchase was made over a certain amount, so I ended up calling while he was still at the store asking what was going on. And he still couldn't be bothered to wrap it...UGH.

I am afraid that I don't have any advice, I honestly just stopped expecting anything from him. It would have been less hurtful to just stop exchanging gifts altogether, except if I didn't get him something thoughtful he would walk around with a look on his face like I just kicked his dog. And I didn't want to set myself up for whatever retaliation may have come, so I just dealt with it. I do like the list idea that others here have mentioned...kind of telling him what to get you without having to point and say "buy that".

[1footouttadefog]

Sounds like some covert narcissism and or passive aggresiveness.

I know the game my pdH only wants the narc supply part of gift getting, ie the brownie points. He does not put in effort or empathy enough to find something that fits.  His parents had a giftshop and were known for the excellent gift wrapping they did, ... for decades so its not like he is clueless. 

You will not train this into him..  Perhaps have him buy a gift gard to a gallery or gift or clothing boutque or go with him to make a selection that he pays for.  Perhaps he could buy you a day spa gift.

I have lived this for decades.  For me ots not the gift, but rather being in a commitment to someone who does not seek intimacy enough to know me, or who undermines these opportunities to  act on knowing me by expressing it in a gift.  I think that for a large part mine is just immature and jealous as he is declining i to a younger emotiinal state as time passes.

Grieving that you may never have that level of intamacy from the relationship cam make it hurt less. At that point you lower the bar and expectations are not repeatedly unmet.

[Cascade]

I know it would be nice if our spouses knew us well enough or listened to us enough that they would have a good idea about what to buy for us, but my husband is truly lost without a list. I'd rather know and like what I'm getting rather than being surprised with gifts that I have to pretend to like.

[Lauren17]

Oh the gifts! I could write a novel on this alone. My H learned to use gifting as a weapon from his FOO and he's good at it! What makes this worse is that in the 5 Love Languages, gifts are my language. 
In the love-bombing stage, I was showered with gifts, carefully chosen and beautifully wrapped. So I know he can do it.
It is passive aggressive, which is the go to tool for a covert narc.
I've tried dropping hints, which are ignored. I've tried the wish lists, which usually ends up in him telling me. "Those are all terrible ideas. You don't know how to pick out gifts! I'll figure something out" or "You just asked for "x" to get back at me for "y"". Then silent treatment.
We went through a time where he decided not to do gifts at all. It was when DD was about 3 and I used to just beg him to taking her Mother's Day shopping.
I've gotten the shopping bag full of toiletries.
I've gotten a gift card in the same amount to the same store for three years running.
I've gotten the diamond bracelet (or other expensive thing at the top of the list) which he expected "favors" for as payment.
We're currently at the stage where I point and say, "get me that" it's actually another step in the process, where I do all the research and shopping and then send him a link. 10 years ago, "get me that" wasn't acceptable and he would be furious with me for it. Now it's ok. I don't know why.
I've been called greedy, selfish, manipulative, clueless and bitchy in response to gift discussions.
There's no solution here. I've just lowered expectations. I've just recently started buying myself gifts. Is it the same? No, but it's a little better.

[SparkStillLit]

I buy myself gifts. Eff it. I'm not getting involved in that goat rodeo. I've stopped caring. I just appreciate whatever I get, I don't let it be a tool to bug me with, and move along.
I did used to care, but as Lauren points out, they just shift tactics all over the place and it's a game you'll never win. All of the games are ones you won't win, so mostly just don't play.

[Lauren17]

they just shift tactics all over the place and it's a game you'll never win. All of the games are ones you won't win, so mostly just don't play.

I may erase Katy Perry and use this as my signature quote instead.

[losingmyself]

For my birthday, a few weeks ago, he bought me a winter coat.
I think it's an odd thing to pick out for a person, but I'm going to give him credit and just appreciate it.
Thing is, it's a warm winter coat, which I do need, but right now the temperature outside does not warrant such a warm coat, so I haven't been wearing it. The other day, I wore it and thought I would melt my brains out. I may have sweated off a few pounds.
But H is relentless that I wear it, and I don't like it, and I should take it back, and he's not going to buy me things for my birthday because I don't like anything. I told him that I do  like it (mostly) and I will really appreciate it when it gets cold out, and I will wear it then. Didn't do any good. The other day he said "Now you're just going to wear it to shut me up" to which I said "Well, I guess you'll never know, will you?"
I thought that was a good one.
He has stopped complaining. And I will wear it when the weather changes.
Good grief...

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi everyone, I wanted to come back and thank you all for your responses. Gifts are such a minefield for all of us. It's really sad.

DH and I did have another chat and I did end up giving him a list of ideas like Fae's suggestion. He told me that he just freezes up with regard to gifts because he's "failed" so many times over the years. The old me he married would have fallen all over saying OH, it's fine, I don't need a gift to know you love me blah blah blah and you know, being codependent. But that's not how I genuinely feel, and I know that now. DH admitted to hoping I would "get over" wanting gifts. Like me, he's experienced gifts as a game and I want to "change the steps to the dance" as my old T would say, whereas his knee-jerk fight-or-flight preference is just not to do that dance at all, so to speak. I have been changing a lot over the last couple of years and admittedly DH struggles to keep up sometimes. It's important enough to me to hang in there with working on the gifts, and DH does agree that it's objectively better to learn to do gifts in a healthy was vs. simply not doing them at all. (Logic is usually effective.  ) So here goes another try. I relate to what was said about it not being about the money spent, etc. The old me believed that I didn't actually deserve anything, so was ok with second-class treatment in my own family. But now I'm expecting to be treated as well as I treat other people,. Thanks for your understanding.

[Cascade]

Good for you to have the courage to talk to him about this, and I hope it goes well for you. My husband does quite well when I give him a list, though I've had some odd gifts too. 

[Fae Greenwood]

I'm glad you got something positive from my suggestion. Good luck and Merry Christmas.

[Lauren17]

Cordelia, I'm so glad your communication was received and accepted!
I wish I had read this earlier, as I really needed this quote this weekend. 
"But now I'm expecting to be treated as well as I treat other people,."
I'm going to try and hold on to that for the future.