Why I'm trying to hang on for daughter

[NumbLotus]

I know nobody can give me advice but I would welcome any kind of perspective.

I want to be gone. This situation is beyond untenable.

I would be terrified to actually leave but that is emotional. The rational reason I don't is my daughter.

Most people feel divorce in this situation is best for the children. And I absolutely believe that is often, maybe mostly, the case.

My daughter has two characteristics that make me stay.

1) Seperation anxiety

She's always had it. A significant case. When she was very young, she needed to be with BOTH her parents or she was anxious. This improved over time and now she is okay going to school or going over friend's houses.

But at times of stress, it comes up again. She also has significant resistance to change, even minor stuff. Like, our car was dying so we had to get a new (used) one, and it was an actual problem for her though the new car was nicer, cooler, etc.

Seriously, she is upset about moving the sofa to the other wall. She is going to freak much more than your average child about mom moving into another place. And it's not going to just fade like with other kids.

It's like her anxiety has always specifically been about "what if my parents divorce" even long before it was a consideration. (H and I were a happy couple when we had her).

2) Teflon

Somewhat paradoxically, while she has significant anxiety, she is kind of teflon about interpersonal relationships. This is a gidsend. It's hard to hurt her feelings or upset her in an interpersonal way (easy for her to be upset with her triggers but those are things like being lost, or late, or change, not so much because someone said something to her).

As she gets older, H is treating her worse, and it does get to her. But not too much. She's not afraid of H and yells right back at him, though that doesn't help. But I'm relieved just to see she isn't afraid or bothered enough to change her behavior (and her behavior is fine,).

When she is upset after H yells at her, she stays in her room and I text her validation if her feelings. She'll draw or play Minecraft or whatever and she's totally fine pretty soon. Usually doesn't want to talk about it.

Look, writing this out, I sound like I'm saying it's nit affecting her. It is and I know it. But I can't stoo the rages. If I divorce, he'll still be her father, and he'll have joint custody, and the rages will still happen.

And she will be massively triggered by the separation.

I fantasize every day, every hour lately, about life without H. But I can't do it to D.

I'm not sure I can make it 4-8 more years, though. (To end of high school or college - which daughter has firmly informed us of her plans to go to the college two blocks away and stay living at home).

[Poison Ivy]

I understand your concerns in both categories.  But I wonder whether your daughter actually might do better (both better than she is doing now and better than you expect) if she has less exposure to her father.  Just a thought.

[NumbLotus]

I WELCOME your thoughts, and WELCOME my assumptions being challenged.

I don't see divorce leading to less exposure to her father. For one thing, I can't drive, so he'll still take her to school and the dentist. And he'll have 50% custody. Interactions with her father will continue to be daily.

The differences I CAN see:

I won't be around to validate when he goes off on her.

He will be much angrier and go off on her much more often.

I know some PDs initiate divorce. Mine will divorce me over his dead body, kwim? He feels his parents' divorce ruined his life. Also, I serve to soothe his anxiety. If I leave him, it will be the biggest betrayal of his life.

That WILL affect our daughter.

[Poison Ivy]

I see that there are positives and negatives to staying and leaving.  Do you have an emergency escape plan in case your husband threatens or becomes violent? Some of the stuff you've written is very concerning to me.

[NumbLotus]

I'm just curious what you saw that concerned you?

And yes, there is reason for concern. I have a loose plan of calling a certain friend to come get me, and try to leave the house and walk down the street while I wait. That reminds me, I need to do better about keeping my phone charged (almost never use it).

I have a more detailed plan for mental health emergencies, though I believe I am much less at risk personally in those cases. When he is manic he is interested in other things, not stewing in anger, so he is not really thinking about me or angry with me. I can't say there's zero risk, though - not thinking of DV type stuff but who knows what bizarre thing might strike him as a good idea. However, I will have time to identify an episode, he won't suddenly be completely psychotic in an hour, but over the course of days. And I'm not going to let it get past a certain mild-to-moderate point.

Isn't it hilarious what normal can become?

[Poison Ivy]

This concerned me:  "A few days ago I achieved a new level of numbness when H was yelling purple faced at me while I just froze. I didn't react as much as usual - I mean inside, not outside. My heart rate and breathing were up and my posture was tense but I didn't feel much of anything at all. It was like waiting in line behind an annoying customer, not great, but not the end of the world.

But the verbal barrage still gets through. I don't know why. He can yell for three hours and tell me all sorts of terrible things about how I'm crazy, wrong, don't matter, etc. And sometimes (not often but sometimes) he might come to his senses later (H has narc traits but isn't an actual narc) and might briefly and stiffly apologize and say he shouldn't have said xyz and he didn't mean it. But the cognitive dissonance, I hear hours and hours of X at the top of his lungs, and a single sentence of not-X."

[NumbLotus]

Oh. Well.

I mean, that's Tuesday, kwim?

Obviously it wasn't okay, but I get the idea I'm in good company around here for getting yelled at because I gave him a mildly exasperated look and sighed, and maybe my eyes rolled disrespectfully for a fraction of a second. So he screamed at me for a few minutes, left, came back for some more, then he avoided me for three days. Big deal, right? As he would say to me, with a major eye roll, "Are you DEAD? You just like to play the victim."

Tuesday, man.

[Poison Ivy]

As you said, you probably are in good company when you get yelled at, but also as you said, that doesn't make it okay. 

[Andeza]

I'd like to chime in as the adult daughter of a disordered mom (uBPD) and an enabler dad. My dad thought it was best to just stick around until I got married and was out of the house. Then he divorced my mom. I was an adult when this happened, but I can't help but think life would have been better if he had divorced her when I was younger and gotten at least partial custody so I had an out... As it was, there was no escape or retreat.

Your daughter... I see so much of myself at that age in what you have written. The anxiety, appearing not to care... She's 14ish by your description? That was my year from hell. The year my mom and I fought (read she yelled at me for every dang little thing) because I was becoming an independent thinker, capable of having my own opinion and no longer just agreeing with everything she said or thought. She fought for that control. That was when I became two people. The person I showed the world, the people pleaser and and fixer - and then the real me. The sarcastic, cynical, and hardcore realist that really didn't care what anybody thought. These two opposites have been the devil to reconcile in my adult life, even threatening my marriage.

Now, I have forgiven my dad for not fixing things when it really would have helped, but it took some time and the wisdom of being an adult for a while before I arrived at that decision.

I hope this is helpful, and yes, as others have said, please be careful. Disordered individuals can be unpredictable and dangerous, there doesn't have to be a precedent for it it to happen. In the words of Gandalf "Be on your guard."

[NumbLotus]

Oh wow, yes, that is helpful. Very much. I will be thinking a lot about it.

If I were to ask daughter if I should leave - and I never would. If I keave that will be my choice alone and she will never have to think she had any input (read: responsibility)  whatsoever. But hypothetically, if I asked her, no question, she would say STAY. With every fiber of her being. How do I integrate that with what you said?

Right now, H doesn't yell at her a lot. They have far more positive interactions than negative. This may of course change over time.

Granted, their positive interactions aren't anything wonderful. They might watch a TV show together.

He used to spend time with her - playing, reading, talking, taking her to the park. Now it's basically rides to/from school and TV after work. Otherwise he's asleep, at work, or morosely in his room.

My poor kid's life really is weird. Thank god for friends, including a "second family" who takes her many weekends, and they go out and do normal things.

But when I think of divorce, I think how H will become a full time volcano, guaranteed. Since I am disabled, it's not like she will suddenly have a wonderful fulfilling lie with me anyway - I will still be stuck at home, just a different one. (And I won't have to tiptoe around it).

Finances are tight already but two households make it tighter. We're on a disability check and a part time retail job. H will lose the house daughter was born in. She's already asked me if she wil get the house someday. H can't even mow the lawn, he will lose the house on his part time job. And I can't get him out of here, no way, I have to leave. He can't even take the garbage to the dump, he's not going to research, view, select, sign for an apartment to facilitate a divorce that he might actually commit suicide to avoid.

I know I sound like wuite the enabler. I guess I am. I welcome all feedback, your comments are being heard and looked at.

God, I'm scared.

[NumbLotus]

I reread all comments again and trying not to cry.

This. Is. So. Hard.

[notrightinthehead]

You don't have to make a decision right away. You don't have to leave before you are ready, or maybe ever.  Start making small changes. Decide what behaviour you no longer are willing to accept. Then decide how you will behave when it recurs. Is there any way you can become more independent?

[NumbLotus]

I am not ready to leave but I am sure thinking about it.

I can't seem to answer the "can you be more independent" question without a giant rant.  I ask myself this question every day and the shortest answer I can give is that my independence options are limited due to the vision problems, I could do more, but I feel weighed down and exhausted by everything.

[capybara]

Hi Numb,

This sounds like a very painful and difficult situation.

I would recommend talking to a lawyer about the likely custody arrangements in your case. If you cannot afford a lawyer consultation, then a domestic violence hotline may be able to help you with some advice. In some places, custody is not automatically 50-50, especially with an older child.  I also don't know how a court in your area would see your husband's behaviour, especially the yelling, or if he is putting your daughter at risk with some of his actions. I would definitely write down every negative thing that happens, if you can safely keep your records hidden. It could be very helpful  to a lawyer in the future.

My middle child showed some of the behaviours you describe with your daughter, although less anxiety.  Having my BPDH out of the house is helping my child so much.  Even though I don't have sole custody, I do believe the time away from H helps with the stress.

Finally, if you can stay connected to friends/family/any work or faith or school community, I think that helps so much. it is harder to stay strong when you are isolated.

[Poison Ivy]

I apologize if I came across harshly. I rarely intend to be harsh, but I can see that some of my comments might seem that way. Now that I know more about your situation (limited money, physical impairments, not being able to drive), the obstacles to you making changes are clear to me, and I better understand your frustration and despair.

[NumbLotus]

Hi Numb,

This sounds like a very painful and difficult situation.

I would recommend talking to a lawyer about the likely custody arrangements in your case. If you cannot afford a lawyer consultation, then a domestic violence hotline may be able to help you with some advice. In some places, custody is not automatically 50-50, especially with an older child.  I also don't know how a court in your area would see your husband's behaviour, especially the yelling, or if he is putting your daughter at risk with some of his actions. I would definitely write down every negative thing that happens, if you can safely keep your records hidden. It could be very helpful  to a lawyer in the future.

My middle child showed some of the behaviours you describe with your daughter, although less anxiety.  Having my BPDH out of the house is helping my child so much.  Even though I don't have sole custody, I do believe the time away from H helps with the stress.

Finally, if you can stay connected to friends/family/any work or faith or school community, I think that helps so much. it is harder to stay strong when you are isolated.

At this point there is nothing he's done to Daughter that would justify, even to me, zero custody to H. I think I can play it cool with the details of custody.

I need to find a place nearby so it's just walking distance - so daughter and I are fully empowered. So if she is with H and they get into a snit, I can just get her or she can come to me. My H has a lot of problems but I sincerely do not see him making a big thing controlling her time with him, just letting it be about what schedules call for and whose house she feels like being at. He is so low functioning he would probably not even really notice if it was mostly my house.  He sleeps all day.

I know it sounds like I dismissed your suggestion but it was very helpful to me to think it through, and you have planted a seed in the back if my mind in case something changes. And one of my big red lines is if he throws something at her - never has and hopefully never will. Not so much as a stuffed animal can he throw at her, or my wishy washy thoughts of divorce come to an end and I will fight for more than 50-50. Because if he throws one thing he will throw another.

For the last two summers, daughter and I spent a momth with my mom (without H). I am trying to think if I noticed anything different with her during that time. Dunno, but it was just so much less stressful. I don't remember any conflict whatsoever. I mean, maybe I had to prod her to clear the table sometimes but it was nbd. It wasn't CONFLICT, just me telling her to step to, lol. I doubt her anxiety faded but it also didn't really come up.

I am isolated, and I have thought about what I could do. Options are limited. I am currently feeling too overwhelmed to work on this.

[NumbLotus]

I apologize if I came across harshly. I rarely intend to be harsh, but I can see that some of my comments might seem that way. Now that I know more about your situation (limited money, physical impairments, not being able to drive), the obstacles to you making changes are clear to me, and I better understand your frustration and despair.

I didn't see even a note of harshness, no worries. I think there are things I need to be told, and even the things I am saying no to are still hanging out in my head. I really need to think, and other people's thoughts are really helping. Thinking about these ideas are also triggering others - like the realization I need to figure out some red lines, of that I need to live in walking distance of the house.

I have also been looking more closely at H's interactions with D. Today we took her to a routine appointment. It was a "good" day as no drama happened (though still stilted, morose, etc.).

Yet, I heard more closely H snapping at D for minir things. No blowups, and she was honestly being a little obnoxious once, but his responses, while not volcanic, just seemed way out of proportion. And so alien to the man I knew even 5 years ago.

It also makes it hard for me to parent. When D was being a little obnoxious, I would have liked to take a firm tone but also not flip out. Just a "hey, knock it off" kind of level. But when he overreacts, I don't really want to "pile on." So there's an opportunity lost for effective parenting.

I'm going to pay more attention to the smaller interactions. I've been mostly focused on the big blowups.

[NumbLotus]

I'm just grieving, really really grieving hard, for everything lost.

We used to do nice, fun things. Happy things. Hiking. The playground. Picking strawberries. So many memories.

We are making zero new hapoy memories. It all ended in 2016, that's when H completely sank into whatever this is.

I know a lot of PDs, the happy times are just a mirage. Just a honeymoon period. For H, it wasn't a mirage, we were happy for a long time, up to 15 years though it was getting darker by the end of that.

Whatever he has, it was subclinical before. There were odd blowups but they were not common, and he could see his part. H used to be an incredibly self-insightful person. More than anyone I can think of. Something damaged his prefrontal cortex, I'm guessing.

I am so so sad that the end of happiness has long since passed and there is NO HOPE. There really isn't.

Sometimes - rarely - he is lucid and I see a piece of him for a little while. But then the shade is drawn again. When he is lucid, I might even be able to explain some things that are happening. Oh, it's hard, but sometimes I can get through. But when the shade comes back down, and it always does, it's like he can't access those memories. Like it never happened, there was no lightbulb moment. I sincerely wonder sometimes if he literally loses memory (not just the lucid moments).

It's mental illness. He is not entirely in reality anymore. Sometimes he's almost not at all in reality.

My husband died. He is dead and I live with his possessed corpse.

[Samuel S.]

I understand your desire to hang on for the sake of your daughter, so that there is some sort of normalcy of having 2 parents. I do wish to give you another perspective that needs to be addressed. I have a friend who was married to a PDh who was extremely selfish and irrational. They have 2 kids that are adults. She finally left with her 2 kids who were very young at the time after 23 years of abuse.

Now, some 30 years later, the kids are dysfunctional. The son in his 30s lives with his mother, my friend, and has had difficulties being independent. The daughter is the one who has major issues. She blames her mother for the dysfunctional family she was raised in. The daughter is actually acting just like her father. My friend and her daughter have been arguing for a long time. They have been trying therapy. The daughter is married and has a daughter of her own and won't let her own mother see her own granddaughter.

[livedit]

Does your mama know whats going on. Next time you and dd go to stay awhile can you just not go back home. Kinda ease out of the situation.