Has anyone else had this problem?
Long story short, I have anger issues coupled with a fragile ego because of the way I was raised (both my parents are narcissistic and emotionally abusive). My defense mechanisms are pretty nasty and I'm working very hard to unlearn them, but it's taken so long and I keep subjecting my spouse to my shit.
I haven't spoken to any of my family of origin since November of 2016. Talking to them isn't going to happen. If my only answer is forgiveness, I feel like I'm in trouble. I do not want this to define me anymore, but I can't seem to lay this baggage down - even after therapy, journaling, mindfulness, and exercise.
Has anyone else been through this? I feel like there may be some perspective I'm missing.
It's so tough this question. We survive our childhood, we come to realize the damage done, we embark on a programme of therapy, mindfulness, spiritual practice, forums etc and ..... the pain is still there. All the horrible emotions: the resentment, the anger, the sheer incomprehension of the enormity of the abuse. All the life chances sabotaged (till now), all the bad choices we made because we were so damaged, all the shitty relationships we put up with because we were desperate for love. The health issues, the economic issues, the extended family issues. It just goes on and on.
I don't think any of us here have a pat answer. If there was one, we'd have applied it and moved on. Instead, we are still here, holding eachother and comforting eachother as we all make small and fragile steps towards healing. I find great comfort in this community of anonymous people from all over the English speaking world. I hope you will too.
As to forgiveness, I have a pretty hard attitude towards the concept. If a person has harmed me, realises this, apologizes sincerely and attempts some degree of reparation, then I find forgiveness pretty easy. Forgiveness is transactional imo. I can't forgive a person who has not asked for it. I can understand the situation (eg. I was dealing with a narcissist). I can unburden myself of any fear, obligation and guilt around the relationship. I can forgive myself for less than stellar behaviour when I was in the relationship or as a result of the relationship. I can, if I am lucky, feel a measure of compassion for the person who is so twisted by their personality disorders that they behave so abusively. (I will need a measure of distance, both place and time, in order to do that). I hope that eventually I will let go of all attachments to that person within my mind and body. I hope that with time, and work, and support, the wounds will heal. I will always have scars, but they won't hurt. I will have become a badass of a human being as a result of this lifelong work to restore my life. I will be able to help others in similar situations. I will turn this absolute pile of shit into something authentically beautiful. My own life. Mine.
A great tool for me is Mindful Selfcompassion. I highly recommend this practice, which can be found on the internet. It is the work of Dr Kristin Neff. That, and my dog!
:bighug:
Forgiveness is a tricky subject, especially when the behavior in question is ongoing. I can understand my mother's actions, to some extent, although I will never fully comprehend how her covert NPD brain works. I certainly feel compassion for her - the extent of her unhappiness and misery is visible for the world to see. And I try to use medium chill and boundaries to keep our relationship workable (and I forgive myself when she gets through those boundaries and I do and say things that I don't like to do and say).
But the behavior continues. Not all the time, but often enough. When she lies, manipulates, throws tantrums, acts helpless, tries to put all her burdens on me, etc., I can't really forgive that behavior. It continues to hurt and anger me. I guess the best I can do is to try and understand and try to manage it through the techniques I've learned on this site.
I don't think forgiveness is the only answer. And even if it is something you want to do, you don't have to do it on any set timetable. Do what works for you and if forgiveness comes some day, great, and if not, that's ok, too. What matters is finding your truth and your peace.
Thank you so much. This means a lot.
The sticking point I have with forgiveness is that I will not get an apology. I know that. Not sincere one. Any time I tried to reach out, I got sarcasm or contempt. So I don't reach out anymore. I do not see a path forward to reconciling. They are gone.
So now I'm left with trying to fix myself by myself. And I don't know how. I do know that things are much simpler when you have a villain to fight, so I'm working right now on seeing them for the people they are and not as villains. And I'm struggling with that too.
I think the one thing that I have to be crystal clear with myself about is that I feel like I've worked hard all my life just to fit in and be functional and for once I just want it to be easy. I feel like I deserve it. But I'm also smart enough to know that life doesn't work like that. Adjusting my expectations somehow feels like I'm accepting what was done to me. I want to kill these feelings. I don't want them.
Appreciate the hugs. I needed this perspective today. I will think on all of this and try to work through it.
Hi Lexophile,
If I just read your posts and not the responses, I come up with this question: what does forgiveness mean to you?
I don't know what it means to you, but perhaps it means something that isn't achievable. Perhaps they truly don't deserve to be forgiven -- what then? From what you describe this would be my vote.
Personally, I believe that forgiveness is a 2 way process that involves the offending party taking ownership for their mistakes and harm. If that person won't come to the table and own this then I don't believe they have earned my forgiveness. Perhaps the thing that continues to make you so angry is this piece i.e. that they will never admit fault or take ownership. If this is true, perhaps forgiveness isn't the thing you need to figure out.
Can we live a peaceful and harmonious life without forgiving everyone who has hurt us -- absolutely!! There's a weird subtext in our society that leans towards a false truth that fully actualized and truly enlightened people have forgiven everyone who ever did them wrong. I simply disagree. I can let someone go who has hurt me, choose to not think about them, overcome triggers in my life that remind me of their harm etc. etc., all of these things move me forward without forgiveness (which may never be possible).
I just watched a video on this from one of my favorite narc-related Youtube channels, and it helped me reframe a lot of the confusing feelings I've been having about my uPD mother lately.
Can You (Should You) Forgive A Narcissist?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyEvUrMq05g
Towards the end, he sort of reframes the idea of "forgiveness" as detaching and letting go, which is more palatable to me than the traditional "I'm Sorry/That's OK, I Forgive You" version of it. Because I don't know if I could forgive either. And like you, I know damn well I'll never get a true apology or even acknowledgement of the harm that was done.
Yes forgiveness is tricky and it's a process. It's not the same thing as reconciliation, which is a restored relationship. It seems like that's off the table for you.
It's off the table for me, too. I've been NC with my FOO since 2017. I relate too to having a very fragile ego, and at times dumping it on my husband. That's what was modeled for us, and yes it is difficult to unlearn. I also sense that you are beating yourself up for your perceived failure. Is that accurate? If so I certainly relate... But it's self-sabotage. It's really hard for me to have a long view with regard to my healing at times. I feel I've spent my whole life being affected by this and I just want to be done with it. Every day I am still affected is another day I've failed to free myself. Stinking thinking for sure, but I've caught myself in that fallacy many times.
That said, I did do EMDR a couple of years ago and I found that it was the closest thing to an accelerated pace on doing the work I was likely to find. It's intense but I found the whole process to be very gentle and I'm so glad I did it.
I once heard an intriguing definition of forgiveness that I've returned to when I'm struggling with this whole idea of forgiving my abusers, or feeling guilt for not having done so. It's something like: "I no longer give what you did power over me, and I release my right to hold you in debt to me for it." That's not quite it but it's the gist at least. We can see that undoing the trauma bond is sometimes like detangling a web. Removing those threads tying us to them and the thoughts they taught us to think took years to get there and very often takes years to heal. It's not something we can poof I've forgiven! Everything is fine now! That is cheap and inauthentic, and probably just a form of rug-sweeping. You are being honest when you say you are having a terribly hard time with it, and being honest with yourself is/was one of the hardest things for me to learn. So well done, you.
Doing the work is what gets us to a place of power and freedom where we are even able to release all the power of the wrongs done to us. I believe that that whole process is in fact forgiveness. It looks like you are getting there. Welcome to Out of the FOG and I hope to see you around the boards.
Quote from: Cat of the Canals on April 16, 2021, 06:17:46 PM
And like you, I know damn well I'll never get a true apology or even acknowledgement of the harm that was done.
For me, still in contact, THIS is the crux. And even if we did get this true apology or acknowledgement, the behavior continues. It requires constant forgiveness hurt after hurt. And that just isn't really healthy. I tried. It broke my brain and body.
Forgiveness and understanding can be damaging when it causes us to continue to subject ourselves to abuse.
I think the reason that forgiveness is so attractive to survivors (if it weren't, we wouldn't struggle with it so much) is that it offers a promise of closure. Like, oh, I was hurt, I worked through it, I forgive you, all better, done!
Or we have this idea that we will eventually get to a place in which the ptsd disappears and then we'll be able to forgive, and if we don't feel forgiving, we're somehow failing at healing.
Or everyone else is all blah blah blah about forgiveness, even -especially!- if we day what happened to us, so we're the only ones with an issue here and our hurt and anger are indication that there really is something wrong with us, after all.
Okay, here's the thing: those thoughts are not reality. They are not possibilities. They are not based on fact, or faith, or objectivity.
They are based in the abuse. They are abusive thoughts, and they resonate with us because they trigger memories of how we were abused. They are things abusers and the people who enable them say.
Let's say someone punched you in the head. Years later, you tell someone about this, and they respond by punching you in the head.
You wouldn't say, oh wow that punch in the head really helped me move in from that last punch in the head. Or oh I feel so much better now that I've been punched in the head again. Or hey maybe what I should do about this headache I've had for years is to keep getting punched in the head!
No! You would move quickly away from whoever is doing the punching, give yourself a nice cool cloth and an aspirin, lay down and rest and when you wake up, say, damn I'm not going near that #@$& again.
And if someone mentioned this person to you, invited you to go visit them, you'd say, no way Jose, whenever I get close they punch me in the head.
And the fm says, oh but you should let go of all that and you say, it took me three days of rest and ibuprofen to get over the last punch. Go get yourself punched in the head, I'm out thank you very much.
And if the fm says, oh but why can't you get past it and go be around them again? You wouldn't think twice about saying, um because it hurts!
And that's the reason. Because it hurts.
Honor the hurt.
For me, the idea of forgiveness is not appealing at all. I do not feel I need it. The torment is purely from having my mother beat me about the head with it over and over and over and not being able to make her stop.
I believe forgiveness is at the end of the road. As long as you are in danger of being hurt you need to hang on to the anger. When they can't hurt you anymore because what they do does not matter to you at all, when you have completely detached yourself emotionally from them, you don't need anything from them, you can accept your past exactly as it was, you can see them as hurt and damaged people themselves. And that I experienced as forgiveness.
True forgiveness is something that can't be forced, but I get a huge amount of comfort from understanding that the dynamic doesn't exist solely in my family and that there is a "point" to it all, even if it's to my detriment. That has helped me to detach, and now i find comfort in acceptance. I've settled somewhat in the knowledge that I would probably forgive quickly if the control and manipulation stopped, but I'm under no illusions that it will. So my comfort comes from accepting that, and knowing that and knowing VLC and NC are viable options.
I think it's less that we struggle with forgiveness and more that we struggle with accepting our past and not letting it define us.
I will never forgive my mother for not leaving my PD father. My siblings and I grew up in hell and are all deeply damaged. We are so far from the life we could have had. We all recreated their dysfunctional marriage in our own. And I see my siblings doing the same to their children.
I don't feel the need to forgive my father. He is who he is and there is no cure for what he is. My mother however had a choice and she chose to stay because it was easier for her. I'm angrier at her and she's who I would like to forgive. I've accepted my father for what he is. I've been and with my entire family for a couple of years. My mother passed away before then.
I'm no longer angry though and I've taken a lot of steps to integrate my upbringing. I no longer let it define me and I've put it behind me for the most part. It happened. It caused the things it caused and I dealt with it the way I did. I made the choices I did at the time because I didn't have the skills to make better ones, like leaving my PD ex husband. Now I know more so I do better and my life has changed accordingly.
A big part of this acceptance for me was understanding attachment and how your home life as a child impacts how you are able to form relationships, your self worth and a ton of other things. I'm working on teaching myself the skills I didn't get to learn as a child and it's been life changing. Skills like emotional regulation so I'm not as reactive all the time, acknowledging my strengths and not being ashamed of my weaknesses.
There is so much focus on "forgiveness", especially in Western cultures. I don't think forgiveness is necessary and I think most people likely mean "acceptance".
I was angry and messed up for most of my life. Then I was angry and resentful of how I grew up and the choices my mother made every single day not to protect her children. Now I'm focused on myself. I'm looking not just at what happened but how it impacted me and how I can mitigate that impact. Every day I get better.
I read something along the lines of this: in biblical times you could kill your neighbor for stealing your cow. So the whole "forgiveness" thing is more about "maybe don't kill your neighbor for this transgression. Maybe let him live." It's not "tell him it's ok and let him come back for more cows.". This makes a lot more sense to me.
I recently read How To Do The Work by Dr Nicole LePera. She talks a lot about the negative impact of her upbringing and how it influenced her life as an adult. She doesn't talk about forgiveness. She talks about doing the work to develop the skills your parents didn't allow you to learn. I found the book very helpful and I recommend it to anyone who grew up in a PD home.
I'm so glad I came here and posted my question because all of your responses have been truly eye-opening. What I like so much about this community is that you are all so real. Everybody I know in my daily life says forgiveness is the answer. I was feeling like there was something wrong with me because I don't understand how that can change anything. I can forgive my parents, but it won't make the hurt stop. It won't take away the pain from my mother calling me names when I was six (oh, but she did it in German because she thought I didn't know what she was saying) or my dad screaming at me in frustration because I didn't understand my math homework. I was a little kid. I know I have an overblown sense of justice, but I was still trying to learn how to be a person.
I've always been expected to just be ok with them the way they are. I'm not. They are nasty, entitled, and mean. I feel like, now that I'm out on my own and have a choice what I can accept, I want to exercise that choice. Getting angry at someone for treating me poorly was a luxury I couldn't afford when I was a kid. Now that I'm not a kid, I'm not about to deprive myself of that. Not when I finally have the choice.
Apologies for cross-posting, but I wanted to share this thread: How to get rid of anger? (https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=88092.0)
People were offering tips on how to help ease the anger.
I'm going to try journalling again...I make personal videos where I talk it out to the camera. I either delete the video right after and review it later. It feels nice to talk out the frustrations sometimes.
Apart from that, physical activities such as running or weightlifting---I used to do it until I was physically exhausted and couldn't be angry anymore. I actually felt really good after that, I love feel sore BUT strong! Another poster mentioned screaming in a secluded area(ex. Basement, in the car, etc) and belt it out to let go of the frustrations.
In regards to the forgiveness part ..I wouldn't be the best person to ask. I was angry for YEARS with my parents, even when I left the house. It took awhile before I became indifferent to them and have no feelings...If they do something that's irritable to me, I can always hangup the phone, walk away, and do what I want to. They live 1,000 kilometers away or so, so I don't worry about it.
Honestly, my anger seems to keep getting redirected to different situations/people, so it never really left me. I just need to learn how to redirect it in more productive ways. I even used to draw when I was angry or make music and it helped relieve some stress. I think that's what I'm missing because I haven't done hobbies in awhile. I'm stuck in this "chores/errands" loop everyday and don't get to do what I want to.
So anyways ...I guess I would say try to redirect that anger if you can or let it release it different ways to help relieve it for the time being.
One thing that has helped me when I've explored the issue of forgiveness is to read different sources about how forgiveness is defined. This helped me realize there is not one standard definition.
There is a book that was written for people who've experienced infidelity ... but I found it could apply to anyone sorting out forgiveness - its called How Can I Forgive You? I found it quite helpful - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_ (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_)
Then there is this article I found years ago which describes the way forgiveness is handled in Judaism. I am not Jewish, but found it very thought-provoking. I was intrigued to find that my own personal values around forgiveness seem to match the Jewish perspective fairly closely. http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm (http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm)
Quote from: JenniferSmith on April 21, 2021, 05:46:21 PM
One thing that has helped me when I've explored the issue of forgiveness is to read different sources about how forgiveness is defined. This helped me realize there is not one standard definition.
There is a book that was written for people who've experienced infidelity ... but I found it could apply to anyone sorting out forgiveness - its called How Can I Forgive You? I found it quite helpful - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_ (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_)
Then there is this article I found years ago which describes the way forgiveness is handled in Judaism. I am not Jewish, but found it very thought-provoking. I was intrigued to find that my own personal values around forgiveness seem to match the Jewish perspective fairly closely. http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm (http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm)
I really like this Jewish interpretation of forgiveness! Thanks for sharing. We live in a predominantly christian community in north America, with various forms and guises. I have always seen our social interpretation of forgiveness as being an christian version, like what I went to do as a child in confession. 4 Hail Marys, 2 Our Fathers and badabing! all is forgiven. Forgiveness is in the hands of 'god', not the person who was harmed. For me, there is no forgiveness without repentance from the perpetrator, or, as defined in this lovely article, the simple repayment of the debt that the person who trespassed against me has incurred. I really appreciate the objective and logical nature of the argument, it is completely in line with my experiences.
Quote from: theonetoblame on April 22, 2021, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: JenniferSmith on April 21, 2021, 05:46:21 PM
One thing that has helped me when I've explored the issue of forgiveness is to read different sources about how forgiveness is defined. This helped me realize there is not one standard definition.
There is a book that was written for people who've experienced infidelity ... but I found it could apply to anyone sorting out forgiveness - its called How Can I Forgive You? I found it quite helpful - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_ (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_)
Then there is this article I found years ago which describes the way forgiveness is handled in Judaism. I am not Jewish, but found it very thought-provoking. I was intrigued to find that my own personal values around forgiveness seem to match the Jewish perspective fairly closely. http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm (http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm)
I really like this Jewish interpretation of forgiveness! Thanks for sharing. We live in a predominantly christian community in north America, with various forms and guises. I have always seen our social interpretation of forgiveness as being an christian version, like what I went to do as a child in confession. 4 Hail Marys, 2 Our Fathers and badabing! all is forgiven. Forgiveness is in the hands of 'god', not the person who was harmed. For me, there is no forgiveness without repentance from the perpetrator, or, as defined in this lovely article, the simple repayment of the debt that the person who trespassed against me has incurred. I really appreciate the objective and logical nature of the argument, it is completely in line with my experiences.
I am happy to hear that it resonated for you! I've had that bookmark saved for many years, as it really spoke to me as well. I agree that we are heavily influenced by the Christian version of forgiveness in the US. I was quite surprised when I learned that it is very different in Judaism. And like you, it matches the way I intuitively thought about forgiveness.
With exception of two FOO public event milestones my estranged parents attended, w/o invitation from me, I've had no real contact since 2013. I blocked their phones. They sent attorney to notify me that I was officially disinherited. No mail or email contact; some 2nd FOG attempts via my oldest young adult DS. I was dutiful daughter SG, nothing done to merit years of harsh vindictive behavior and overt NPD expectations from them.
I'm fine. I've taken Serenity Prayer-like stance: accept how they are, realize they won't change; and remove myself from further harm. I did my best to please and appease them, to no avail. I tolerated a great deal of disrespect, disdain, and plain ugliness without argument, to no avail. I did therapy, which my parents deemed offensive, and angry that I "would discuss family matters". I won't "forgive" them, but as I "accept" them as-is, I also won't let myself be further victimized. I'm doing them the favor of no longer being able to behave badly towards me; my absence is really a pseudo benefit to them.
My debt to my npd parents is paid. Reality may now intrude, where they may "need" me even more, but the bond is broken, and I realize my feelings are entirely benign but also fully disengaged from them. I suggest same approach.
I am still very new to the healing journey and process. Several months into the journey, I wanted to continue learning how to release anger, deal with the inner child, process the trauma, deal with grief, and ultimately how to move toward forgiveness.
I have come to the conclusion that I may never get to forgiveness. I hope I do achieve forgiveness and if I do not, then I am ok with that (at least as of now I am ok with that) because I believe it is not the only answer.
In Julie L. Hall's superb book The Narcissist In Your Life, she states, "forgiveness is for you, not the narcissists. [Forgiveness] is not about the person who has wronged you. Forgiveness is your acceptance of your hurt and your release of that hurt."
Our mutual and shared healing journeys involve education from books, emotional journaling, therapy, online forums, perhaps practicing self-compassion, etc. Those are all terrific ways to accept the hurt even though the wound(s) is still there.
Quote from: lexophile528 on April 21, 2021, 09:34:10 AM
Getting angry at someone for treating me poorly was a luxury I couldn't afford when I was a kid. Now that I'm not a kid, I'm not about to deprive myself of that. Not when I finally have the choice.
The above statement is so true. Let your anger move you to action. That is what ultimately put me on a path to finally address the hurt after keeping it bottled up for far too long. And yes, while we were children, we could not afford risking the loss of attachment to our parent(s) because we needed them, despite their abuse, to provide food, shelter and clothing. Back then we did want we needed to do in order to survive. That part is over now. We are free to choose our next steps.
Sending you much compassion and love
Quote from: lexophile528 on April 16, 2021, 04:19:12 PM
The sticking point I have with forgiveness is that I will not get an apology.
forgiveness is more for you than the one who hurt you
quote by Najwa Zebian:
"Today I decided to forgive you. Not because you apologized, or because you acknowledged the pain that you caused me, but because my soul needs peace."
I spent my life forgiving; finding excuses for parents and people generally for their hurtful behaviour. I think this is also about boundaries. If we forgive without the others sincere remorse, we throw down our boundaries and we leave ourselves open to more abuse. I have not been able to forgive the most recent abuse against me, but I do have compassion left which helps me through. I am keeping my boundaries firmly in place. The trouble is that after a number of years have elapsed, others feel I should forgive and forget. Society believes forgiveness is the answer sadly.
I decided I was done forgiving. That's what got me into this mess. My uPD parent made me feel small, never apologized, and then rugswept up the whole thing and I was expected to forget the abuse ever happened. I find I don't need to forgive her. I need to forgive myself for dealing with that for so long, for subjecting that onto my husband, onto my kids. I'm going through the inner child workbook and trying to make sure that the inner child of each stage knows that it wasn't their fault and they can stop using those behaviors that worked when they were little because now I'm taking care of them and I won't let my uPD mom or anyone else treat them like that anymore. My mother does not deserve forgiveness. She has no remorse and was starting to do the same things to my kids when I went NC. She would do it again in a heartbeat. That is not someone I wish to forgive. I forgive myself for taking all that blame for all those years, allowing myself to think if I just change this one thing, or do this thing differently it will be enough. But it was never enough. I can't forgive her, but I can forgive myself.
This is such a reaffirming thread for me, thanks for starting it OP.
It's all stuff I know, and believe, but after years of NC it's easy to slip back a bit, to soften my resolve, and to forget some of the true reasons for my current family situation.
Letting go and forgiveness are totally different concepts for me. I've been letting go, which is why some of the memories get foggy. This is a good thing. Choosing not to forgive keeps me safe though, and maintains accountability with the offending party. The debt remains outstanding and until full recompense is achieved (which I believe will never happen) there will be no softening of my boundaries.
I also appreciate being reminded that 'neutrality benefits the oppressor, not the oppressed' SO TRUE
I keep trying to find the time to respond with a lengthy response to this, but never manage to finish it. I'm not sure if this will help or not, but it's what helped me. Maybe it will help someone else reading if it's not what you are asking.
I was raised in a Christian household with PDs, so forgiveness was to turn the other cheek about everything. Forgive everything and keep getting abused. It wasn't just with my PD family members. I was supposed to turn the other cheek when bullied at the bus stop and at school. I was stunned to find out that turn the other cheek wasn't actually rug sweeping and continuing to be abused. My PDm was all about forgive, forgive, forgive. But it was really rug sweep, rug sweep, rug sweep. That isn't forgiveness.
I read once that forgiveness was to release someone from consequence. I no longer want an apology from my PDm. I no longer want her to have a consequence for what she said or did. I want to walk away. I want to no longer harbor anger and resentment. I want to live like she is a stranger that I'll never see again. That is all I want out of the forgiveness. I want that internal anger and resentment to go away. It's not the rug sweep, forgive and forget and go back for more that I was taught. I was taught that I wasn't a good person or a good Christian if I couldn't rug sweep and continue to be abused.
When people tell you that you need to forgive, I wonder what definition of forgiveness they are using? When I was NC with PDm and still LC with enD, all I heard was from enD was that I needed to forgive her. He kept talking HIS version of Christian forgiveness. His version was to accept her for exactly who she is, change nothing, go back to the verbal abuse and manipulation and not "rock the boat". Forgive and forget. Rug sweep. That isn't forgiveness.
One of the most helpful things I have learned here was when someone pointed out to me the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. They shared a great (but religious... not sure if you are religious) video about the difference. If you do a search for Patrick Doyle and reconciliation, you can sometimes find his videos. There was a youtube issue with the group who published the videos, so they are hard to find. Even if you aren't religious and don't agree with everything about his beliefs, the main idea can be helpful. There is a huge difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. What my family and friends wanted when they insisted that I forgive my mother was for me to reconcile with her. That can't happen based on where she is and who she is. Reconciliation is a process and it involves BOTH people. The offender has to actually ask for forgiveness, repent, change, etc. The person hurt or abused (us) has to accept the apology and see that they have changed before reconciliation can happen.
I think it was Dave Ramsey when talking about forgiveness when a spouse has financial issues that harm the other spouse who said that if your husband spends your family savings on drugs, gambling, porn, etc. you can forgive them, but for reconciliation to happen they have to prove to you that they have changed. You don't just ask for forgiveness and then get the check book, credit card and ATM card right back. That is reconciliation. It's irresponsible to immediately trust someone again after they have harmed you. You have to see that they have repented and changed. PDs don't change.
Those descriptions between forgiveness and reconciliation were huge for me. I can forgive. For me that means that I'm not out for her to be punished. I don't want revenge. I don't want to feel angry or a need to get back or get even. I've walked away. But I also don't want any reconciliation because she hasn't changed. She'll never change. She can't change. That's reconciliation and it's what many people think when they tell us that we need to forgive. Reconciliation won't happen.
Sidney37, Your posts are always very important to me because your background is similar to mine. I also grew up in a Christian house where forgiveness equaled submitting to constant and unremitting abuse without complaint.
What does turning the other cheek really mean?
Yes, I'm curious too! "Turn the other cheek," was synonymous with shut up and take it in my FOO as well, especially with regard to sibling cruelty. It didn't really apply to uNF, because that would imply that he did something wrong in the first place. :flat:
Turn the other cheek... How many years-decades actually-do we have to endure on each side before we're "allowed" to be done?
I'm old and grumpy-which gives me zero credibility because of "age related cognitive decline" which is my peremptory strike on spelling and grammar blunders and ideas-set-in-stone, never mind originality. My abuser has been dead (yyeesss!) for decades and I remained NC long before, during her pathetically abusive, impotent, wasted life and obviously since she sucked the single remaining molecule of life out of every. last. thing within striking distance.
And not once did the concept of Forgiveness show up on my menu or my radar. Gasp and pearl clutch, I know.
Call me morally bankrupt and spiritually barren but why would it? Would I forgive a raccoon for grubbing in my container plants? A snake for shedding it's skin on the patio? A doe who kicked me right into the ER if I unwittingly wandered too close to a wood line where she stashed her fawn? Of course not. This is *their Character.* It is *who they ARE.* *THIS IS WHO YOUR ABUSER IS.* Your decades of experience with them has immortalized that reality in your recall, correct? It is emblazoned under "Self-Preservation."
Of course you're angry-why wouldn't you be? Would we ever dare tell an *adult* in a Domestic Violence Shelter they had to "forgive" their abuser? How 'bout, "OMG! This is your PARTNER! You only get (as many of them as ya want, but whatever) to rid yourself of your abuser after THEY AGREE!" Would we, with deep concern because, ya know "concern" ask them, "Have you thought about what you're going to do when your abuser dies?" (Please don't do this, peeps: We'd get rightfully slapped back to Reality amirite?!)
And here we are: The smallest, most defenseless, most innocent, most powerless victims of abuse perpetrated by the very people who's primary responsibility was the Care and Protection of their offspring-us-and yet.....Adult Victims Of Abuse By "Parents?" We are the only survivor group that comes to my (deteriorating) brain (aside from animals) that gets burdened with more "stuff" we allegedly have to do. The implication is all kinds of bbbaaaadddd stuff is gonna befall us if we withhold the sweet elixir of "forgiveness" for the people who abused us. Followed by verses from various Big Books of Retribution, Ghandi, Farcebook memes etc. indicating we failed "Forgiveness." Does the DA prosecute the victim or the perp? Haven't we already done Hard Time?!
All these decades later, I can report I have not been struck by lightning. I have not spontaneously combusted. I still don't know what a "Karma Bus" is because we don't have those here apparently. I'm a cadaver doner so I get a free Roast and Toast which I like to believe is another of my peremptory strikes before "I am so going to hell." Or so I've been told mostly indirectly by the gentle religious people who are...."concerned."
Do you realize the "parenting" we received doesn't even meet the Parenting Standard set by wild animals? I've watched for decades as animal parents literally died if necessary to protect their young. Not once have I seen them pitch their offspring out in front of them as meatshields, raised a paw, a beak, a hoof never mind a hairbrush etc. to their offspring to "discipline" them. And they don't scream at them either.
Your anger is righteous. Your anger is a normal response to an abnormal situation. Your anger tells you what's "fair." It also serves to remind you of one bedrock reality: YOU WERE THE CHILD, adolescent, young adult, adult etc. who was betrayed and maltreated repeatedly resulting in a pattern of behavior by a or a couple of ADULTS who abused you and their authority over you. If my life serves as anything including a bad example, let my experience tell you nothing awful is gonna happen if you can't muster up some kind of "forgiveness" for your abuser(s.) If that's anticlimactic or some kind of disappointment or aspersion on my Character according to someone else, oh well.
You're working on being a Better You. If there's anything that eclipses this for making you and the world a better place, one of us at a time I haven't blundered on it. That goal is more than enough and so are you. Any one who tells another adult they "HAVE TO" do anything is blatantly trying to control YOU. Doesn't *that* behavior ring a bell?! The rest is just details. Promise.
Quote from: Tundra Woman on May 13, 2021, 01:03:35 PM
Any one who tells another adult they "HAVE TO" do anything is blatantly trying to control YOU. Doesn't *that* behavior ring a bell?! The rest is just details. Promise.
Hey Tundra Woman, it sure does ring bells (shudder). I say this as one who was persistently 'controlled' by my uPDm for about five decades.
This is such an helpful thread, with lots to think about. I agree with what everyone is saying, and can add my experience if it helps anyone.
I too was brought up in a religious household, with a very conservative, controlling uPDm and and a weak enF. So forgiveness was definitely all about turning the other cheek, which played out in our FOO as simply 'putting up and shutting up' at all times, even when I was being bullied at school, for example. My parents would also never call out anyone outside the FOO on poor behaviour. They would seethe and vent about it, though, but then deny they even were doing this, and would certainly rage at me if I had the temerity to point it out.
My uPDm and enF have always been very submissive people, and regards themselves as 'great helpers' in the community and the church in our small local area. You therefore can imagine the image they had of themselves and how important it was for them to uphold this ideal. But someone had to be sacrificed so that they could maintain this fiction. As I mentioned, I rarely called out their submissive behaviours as I knew they would become angry and attack me. Same with their emotional abuse and incessant criticism of me. There was no point, as their over-reactions would be so damaging to me. I would count the costs and just swallow my pain and shut down even further. Unsurprisingly, I became very depressed as a child and adolescent, for which they then punished me further for not smiling enough. It was a no win situation. Damned if you do...
The rug-sweeping, denial, invalidation and gas-lighting (mostly from my uPDm - my enF would tell me privately that he wanted to leave her!!!) was ongoing, but they seemed to see it as somehow necessary to uphold their image of themselves. They just seemed to live a lie, in my opinion. So yeah, forgiveness in my FOO was about them putting up and shutting up in public, venting in private, then expecting me to put up with their abuse and shut up about it, too. That's logical in PD-world, I guess.
And, as for them
requiring forgiveness for anything, well, my uPDm was so perfect and saintly, what would she even need to be forgiven for. She has 'never done anything wrong.' Again, PD logic.
Anyway, I know I am rambling (although this is another thing I was often accused of, if I ever tried to explain something in a nuanced way rather than or question their word salads) but forgiveness for me is a different thing:
I forgive my FOO for all this. Which means I can let go of even needing an apology (I also know I'll never get a real one). For me it is more of a detachment from needing anything from them. I think that on some level 'they were doing their best' (as I keep getting told) but their 'best' certainly wasn't what I needed. They were certainly able to show my younger four siblings more affection, particularly my uPDGCbro. They fed and clothed me, but showed no real love, attention or approval as far as I can recall, only incessant criticism and scapegoating. Anyway, I no longer need any of this from them. I also don't actually want it anymore.
And for me, forgiveness does not include reconciliation. My parents want the reconciliation (aka have me return to their cult to continue the fiction) but without them having to do any work. Because to work on it would mean they would have to acknowledge some responsibility for the relationship breaking down. And I know them both well enough to know that is NEVER going to happen. It therefore would be very foolish for me to put myself back in harm's way.
So while I wish them well, I will not acquiesce to their demands to visit me or maintain contact, despite them using all sorts of guilt trips to try and compel me to comply, as that would greatly hinder my recovery. They claim I am making them ill by not doing what they want (ie. rejoining their cult), and I hear one way or another about these guilt trips as I live in a very small community with many connections to FOO. However, at this point of my life, I'm putting my needs and those of my H, S and D first. I still feel guilt and that I am fundamentally unlikeable because that's how I was trained. But going back into their cult wouldn't alter any of that. It would soon be back to Square One.
TL;DR: For me, forgiveness is not about rug-sweeping and denial, it is about accepting, and detaching from the situation needing to be other than what it is. Forgiveness is about letting go of any expectations of the other party and just letting them be who they are. Forgiveness doesn't have to include reconciliation where there has been no acknowledgement of, or willingness to work on, the difficulties that led to the breakdown of the relationship.
{{doglady}}
You get it. Thank you.
Now, how do we spread the word? Thoughts, Feelings, Ideas?
Anyone?
Because we don't need anyone else thinking and/or feeling they're alone and they have this requirement, this burden, this belief somehow there is "more" they "should" do or be.
We are enough. We have done enough. People that come from "good enough" backgrounds never even think about limiting contact or terminating their relationship with their parents. How much more evidence do you require to "prove" to you they aren't as you *know* they are? That their pattern of behavior isn't your "imagination" etc.? Please, suggestions regarding some behavioral benchmarks so those of us who doubt our experiences can point to, see, deeply beyond words understand something concrete and decide, "OK, that's enough?"
None of us are ever 100% when we go NC it's the Right Thing.
Rarely is the "Right Thing" the Easy Thing.
The Struggle Is Real™️
Interesting...
It seems that for some the act of releasing and letting go is equated with forgiveness. I can understand, and respect, this view.
For me, it's possible to release and let go, at least to some extent, without forgiveness. We share the experience that letting go is key to our ongoing health and well being. We're still here writing about it though.... so is it truly released?
There's another distinction for me. If, for example, my undiagnosed, enabling F came around to taking ownership for what happened by admitting the truth to me and those around him (such a wild fantasy lol) I may find my way to forgiveness. This is not the same as reconciliation though. Reconciliation may, or may not, occur afterward and in my mind is a separate process from taking responsibility, making recompense, and seeking forgiveness. I would forgive him if this happened, but I'll never like him and it's very unlikely we could ever be in a room together.
I believe our relationship is too damaged for reconciliation to occur. Letting go is for me and something I can work towards. Seeking forgiveness is his responsibility and whether it happens isn't really my concern or responsibility.
I'm also an atheist... and not because I felt abandoned by god or anything. I was raised in a catholic environment. In my early teens started a quest to determine if I could find anything in the world that was actually evil. It started with small, silly things when I was about 12 like looking under my bed to see if a monster was really there. As I got older, and continued looking, I came to the very clear understanding that there is no evil in the world, anywhere. There are simply the forces of nature and the desires of other people that often run contrary to my own. Without evil the entire logic of the catholic faith unraveled for me. I mention this because the process also led me to question and analyze the many theological values I had integrated into myself growing up, forgiveness was one of them. I will say that coming to live in a world without evil was a beautiful and liberating thing.