the struggle for "forgiveness"

[dreamtree]

Just as I opened the window to write this, I realized its my fathers birthday (DOH!). I've been LC/NC with him for....I've lost track. Probably a year? I'm not counting the obligatory Christmas card sent by him and his NPD wife, with his written added note about how much THEY miss us.  Another "state approved" piece of propaganda, when he has my phone # and email and could make contact any time if HE actually remembered what its like to miss me.

I feel like sometimes I understand what happened and I am not angry with him anymore. My mother died 25 years ago and he was just not up to the task of living without her. He got involved and remarried within a few months of her death (as in: TWO months), rejected me, divorced her, came back to me, met another woman, rejected me, almost married her, came back to me, then married the one that would assure the end of his relationship with his daughter once and for all.

At no point during ANY of this did I ask ANYthing of him. Not only was I not unreasonable, I supported him in his efforts to get himself together.

He has been completely brainwashed by his new family, led by his NPD wife.

Who do I forgive? HIM for being broken and unable to love me because he cant "serve two masters" and failing to notice that THATS NOT EVEN NORMAL TO THINK LIKE THAT?

HER for being damaged goods?

MYSELF for being in so much agony over this that I decided I had to cut ties to save myself?

THe problem with forgiveness in the case of him and her, is that there has been no acknowledgement of any wrongdoing. Forgiveness cannot be built on a foundation of lies and denial.

There has been no "repentance" no change in behavior. No accountability. Nothing but blameshifting so obvious that even people who don't know the term blameshifting totally see it.

Ive been left to figure out on my own what is "The Right Thing To Do" and at some point it mean LETTING GO OF THE ELECTRIC FENCE. I know what to expect from him and them, and its all bad. All of it. Toxic to me. Im recovering from cancer and I dont have any bandwidth for this.

Its actually rather remarkable that right now I dont feel guilty about not wishing him a Happy Birthday. I just feel sad that Im so far past that point.

[coyote]

Dreamtree I hope you are on a good course in your recovery from cancer. I have some experience with it in my personal life and know the devastation it can cause. In response to your dad and his issues I would try to remember that the only person we can control is ourselves. I'm sure I'm "preaching to the choir" on this one but sometimes I find it easy to forget.

You say, "THe problem with forgiveness in the case of him and her, is that there has been no acknowledgement of any wrongdoing. Forgiveness cannot be built on a foundation of lies and denial." I would challenge you to reframe this thought. IMO forgiveness is all about me and letting go of any negative thoughts or emotions held toward someone who has wronged. Therefore I nee no one's acknowledgement or anything else to establish my own attitude of forgiveness.

It certainly seems you have made great strides in your journey. Thank you for sharing with us.

[Malini]

Hi dream tree,

I struggled a lot initially when I thought of forgiveness, mainly because nearly everyone around me was urging me to "forgive" and also because I thought "forgive and forget" were inextricably linked. Like you I wondered how I could forgive someone who hadn't even asked to for my forgiveness and probably never would.

A couple of years down the line now, I believe that forgiveness is the gift we give ourselves and in some ways, for me, it was tightly linked to acceptance. Acceptance of the bad hand I was dealt with respect to my PD parents, acceptance of the abusive and toxic environment I grew up in, acceptance of the missed chances I had, the wrong choices I made, etc.  Once I'd accepted all this, I was able to begin to move forward, Out of the FOG and towards the sun.

I would definitely need acknowledgement, repentance and accountability if I was considering re-entering a relationship with my PD or giving them a second or 100th chance. Without that, I'd just be setting myself up for another fall.

Sending you strength and hugs of support.

[bloomie]

dreamtree - the struggle to find a place of acceptance of what we cannot change and to also continue to hold and honor a space for ourselves that acknowledges the moral failings and deep, unaddressed character issues of our parents, that have caused us great harm, is not easy.

I have had to look at this from the perspective of removing any roots of bitterness from the rich soil of my own life. I don't want that growing in the garden of my life and choking out all that is flourishing there that sustains me.

I see forgiveness as an agreement and an exchange. If there is not agreement that there has been wrongs done, I don't know how to offer forgiveness unilaterally in a relationship of two. I do know how to prepare my heart to be ready to forgive and to refuse to hold onto the offenses one more day, and it is in that decision that I have found sweet release and great peace.

I don't mean rug sweeping or invalidating our hurts, for me, it is moving through those feelings, recognizing that the other most likely will not take responsibility for their behaviors, and refusing to carry it on my own life journey.

I have found this an empowering place to be. I am not at the mercy of my woundedness and making decisions from emotions. And from that place, that honors what is actual between me and another, I can choose how to engage or not engage with clarity and grace.

Certainly as you are healing and fighting the fight with your health and cancer all of your energies and resources are needed to nurture yourself back to full health. Sending you healing and strength and peace today!

[Danden]

Dreamtree, first of all, I love your handle.  Dreams grow like trees, very slowly until they become big and strong.  Like recovery from PD abuse.

About forgiveness, I agree with Malini.  I see no value in forgiving someone who doesn't ask for forgiveness and who doesn't hold himself/herself accountable.  If they do not believe they are wrong, what are  you forgiving them for?  They think their behavior is okay.  So if you forgive them, they will not change, they will just continue doing it.  Because they see nothing wrong with  it.  Why would they stop? 

What you can do is accept the situation and find peace within yourself. You can't make them see what they are doing and how it is hurting you.  They (and you) have been there, done that.  Or rather, been there, not done that.  They will not change unless they want to.  Only you can change the way you approach the problem.

Check out this video on youtube about forgiveness:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsVM_gd0Tc

I think he lays out very well what forgiveness is, can be, and should be.  When to forgive, how to forgive and why forgive.  It helps you sort through the emotional vs the moral aspects.

[dreamtree]

Dreamtree I hope you are on a good course in your recovery from cancer. I have some experience with it in my personal life and know the devastation it can cause. In response to your dad and his issues I would try to remember that the only person we can control is ourselves. I'm sure I'm "preaching to the choir" on this one but sometimes I find it easy to forget.

You say, "THe problem with forgiveness in the case of him and her, is that there has been no acknowledgement of any wrongdoing. Forgiveness cannot be built on a foundation of lies and denial." I would challenge you to reframe this thought. IMO forgiveness is all about me and letting go of any negative thoughts or emotions held toward someone who has wronged. Therefore I nee no one's acknowledgement or anything else to establish my own attitude of forgiveness.

It certainly seems you have made great strides in your journey. Thank you for sharing with us.

Ive been at this for a long time now and have reframed it every possible way. I am posting not so much for guidance but to "give back" after having been on here when I did need the most help with my NPDex.

My acknowledgement of the limits of forgiveness when one is doing all the "forgiving" but the debt of the harm done remains unpaid and unaccounted for is kind of a "beyond my frame of reference" concept, more of a biblical scope, if you will. If we are forgiven for our "sins", for example, it does not mean that we get to keep doing the sinning and keep an ongoing tab of forgiveness open by a higher power.

In my case I am not a higher power, but it took a while for me to even realize that the reason I was stuck is because a wrong was done unto me and then it kept on BEING done. And it continues now with these official communications in the form of a Christmas card.

I am indeed sharing this because there is no linear path in this journey to forgiveness and letting go (which are not necessarily synonymous but the tend to be needed in equal measure). Progress is measured not by the absence of relapses of pain and frustration, but in their decreasing frequency and impact.

So I contend that absolute forgiveness cannot exist in a vaccuum,  without any accountability in any form from the other party, because true healing (the purpose of forgiveness) requires some form of healing on both sides of the equation. We can get close to that absolute forgiveness only on our own side of it, by letting go of the need to forgive beyond that wall that we run into. But the empty feeling that we are left with is explained by the deafening silence on the other side as we attempt to remove our connection to whatever unhealed pain led to the PD's condition and "close the loop" in a way. Mostly by not being in it.

Its not a perfect outcome, of course, but its as good as its going to get, probably.

[coyote]

Thank you again for sharing dreamtree. I apologize if I did not understand the tenor of the original post and if I overstepped my boundaries. You make an eloquent proposition in your response. Forgiveness is often discussed here and I appreciate the take you give. I especially like your description of "no linear path" and how progress can be measured. 

[dreamtree]

Thank you again for sharing dreamtree. I apologize if I did not understand the tenor of the original post and if I overstepped my boundaries. You make an eloquent proposition in your response. Forgiveness is often discussed here and I appreciate the take you give. I especially like your description of "no linear path" and how progress can be measured.

I appreciate your apology...and I in turn apologize for any defensiveness in my response.  I have become sensitive to even the appearance of oversimplifications, although I myself use simplification in my own mind as a matter of course (!).

I was just realizing I should add this important detail to the picture: until I acknowledged my fathers actions as those borne of a reasonably functioning free will (another problematic concept for another time) I was unable to see that he had betrayed me and that THIS was the source of my pain that had not yielded to any other explanation.

I had, up until VERY recently really framed this entire situation (now spanning 25 years) as the reactions of a man with some deficits and liabilities to a very stressful situation (the loss of his wife a.k.a. my mother).  I continually applied good will and found it odd that it never helped. It was when I was bullied in a drunken rage by his wifes daughter and he would not hear me or defend me about the incident, further still expecting me to "let grass go over it" (actual quote) that the final act of betrayal took form.

As a parent, I saw so clearly that he had crossed an ethical line that I would not, not ever under any circumstances. There are no circumstances under which my daughter would suffer such an attack and I would shush her while she tried to tell me about it. This was my tipping point. Once I finally let myself see that this was an act of his will, HIS prime directive, whether influenced by anyone else or not, the betrayal was finally clear. And it finally retroactively made sense of all the past incidents that had puzzled me so.

Ironically, this made it easier to let go. This truth was worse than I had hoped for, but it sure made way more sense than any elaborate theory that I had to date come up with to explain his choices and how they made me feel. In a sense the magnitude of the wrong finally "justified" me writing him off in some form.

But then, the forgiveness portion became trickier. Now I had to reconfigure my forgiveness to accommodate an act of free will as opposed to the blunderings of a broken misguided man. I had to weigh the evidence: was he not perfectly capable of acts of free will in so many other areas of life? Yep. Was he not involved in his new family, and all the details of their lives, supporting this same person who attacked me, enabling her to continue unchecked, speaking ill of me in front of him and others in the family? Yep.  Did I not make it clear he could contact me and have a relationship with me if so chose? Yep.

WHAT DID HE CHOOSE? No contact. Blamed on me of course.

So as I attempt to understand the nexus of forgiveness and letting go, I conclude that for now

I've let go of the idea that he will want to be the father to me that I once knew or thought I knew.
I've forgiven him for being a broken misguided man.

but sticking in my craw as a parent are his willful acts of betrayal against his child.

In other words,  he is not broken and misguided enough for me to say he is so mentally impaired as to not grasp basic ethics and morals. He is choosing to rewrite the moral ethical code for his comfort zone.
That is an assessment I am forced to make because I chose not to be a victim anymore, and from this vantage point I no longer see him as a victim of a PD, but rather as a co conspirator.

BRUTAL. But dangit, as much as I don't want it to be true,  it is true.

Bonus challenge: Truth. What is it? In my experience, it makes itself known, sometimes quietly but almost always persistently, until we let it in.

[coyote]

Certainly impressive on many different levels dreamtree. Insight, fortitude, courage to face the truth, courage to pursue the truth.

[Jade63]

Bonus challenge: Truth. What is it? In my experience, it makes itself known, sometimes quietly but almost always persistently, until we let it in.

PROFOUND!

~Jade

[dreamtree]

Dreamtree, first of all, I love your handle.  Dreams grow like trees, very slowly until they become big and strong.  Like recovery from PD abuse.

About forgiveness, I agree with Malini.  I see no value in forgiving someone who doesn't ask for forgiveness and who doesn't hold himself/herself accountable.  If they do not believe they are wrong, what are  you forgiving them for?  They think their behavior is okay.  So if you forgive them, they will not change, they will just continue doing it.  Because they see nothing wrong with  it.  Why would they stop? 

What you can do is accept the situation and find peace within yourself. You can't make them see what they are doing and how it is hurting you.  They (and you) have been there, done that.  Or rather, been there, not done that.  They will not change unless they want to.  Only you can change the way you approach the problem.

Check out this video on youtube about forgiveness:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsVM_gd0Tc

I think he lays out very well what forgiveness is, can be, and should be.  When to forgive, how to forgive and why forgive.  It helps you sort through the emotional vs the moral aspects.

THanks for the video! This really does nail it. I applied the first two forms of forgiveness unsuccessfully because bad stuff kept happening, and the release part was all that was left. MAKES SENSE.

Re: my handle. I really thought that one through. It was exactly as you interpret: I had a dream of a better future, and I wanted new roots to grow and thrive. I joined the forum to deal with my escape from my NPD husband.

As much as that man hurt me, its so weird to me how its NOTHING compared to the loss of my father. When I got rid of the bad husband, I very very quickly felt a whole lot better. The loss of him has not been devastating. Just the loss of time I put into being with him.  His betrayal at one point seemed so terrible and now I honestly dont even care. He is zero to me.  With my father, it wont be that way.

I guess on some level I think sometimes its best for him that he in fact never sees what he has done. I suspect his heavy drinking is his "secret sauce" for denial.

I cant save him. I guess I still struggle to accept that I have given up on saving him. I used to feel I had left him to his captors, but he likes his captors.

RELEASE RELEASE! NO MORE FREE RENT! 

[JustKat]

THe problem with forgiveness in the case of him and her, is that there has been no acknowledgement of any wrongdoing. Forgiveness cannot be built on a foundation of lies and denial.

Hi dreamtree,

This is also my feeling on the subject. I agree with some of the other posts that acceptance is possible, but not forgiveness. I've reached a point where I now fully accept that I could not have changed the situation, accept that my parents were both disordered ... accept what happened to me and move forward from there.

Forgiveness is something I can't and won't do. My NPDmother passed away five years ago, and now I'm left with enFather stalking and hoovering me with guilt cards. He believes with all his heart that the problems between us (both him and my mother) were MY fault because Nmother always said I was "the bad seed." In order for me to forgive and resume contact, he would have to acknowledge that he was wrong. Even if he doesn't understand exactly what he did, simply saying "I'm sorry for whatever I did to hurt you" would be good enough. He's now 88 and still sends cards blaming me for everything. He is willfully remaining in denial, and I just can't forgive that.

I understand that some people are able to forgive even though they have no intention of ever seeing that person again, or in some cases, can't see them because they're deceased. That's something we do for ourselves, not for them. Everyone is different, and that kind of forgiveness does work for some people, but I can't go there. I'm in my late 50s and will never be whole. I'm recovering from it, but will never be 100%. So I can accept that some very harmful things were done to me but cannot forgive the people who willingly inflicted that harm one me, especially since they were quite pleased with themselves for the harm they caused. Nope. Can't do it.

I'm so glad to hear that you're recovering from your cancer. You're right that you don't need any more stress right now. Concentrate on your own wellness. It IS sad when you realize you're past the point of caring, but when you only have the strength to care for one person, you have to care for YOU.

I wish you continued good health, both physical and emotional. Sending healing hugs your way ...

[Gromit]

Some interesting thoughts expressed here, like Just Kathy I am being hoovered by my enF, still married to my mother. The latest came yesterday, reminding me that it has been 10 years since he saw me and mine. Yes, so what? It didn't bother him at 5 years, or 6 etc. It has become worse since I stopped responding, having spoken to him many times when he had cancer a couple of years ago. I stopped responding because I had tried to get some answers from him and he ignored the questions, said 'he wanted to remain on good terms with all of his family'. He tries to manipulate me in one way or another with each message but never does anything to acknowledge what happened, or apologise, or explain. I think if he actually did that, change might be possible, or forgiveness perhaps. Do they ever apologise, or even say they are sorry for the way things are? In 10+ years he has never tried it, he must be insane to keep doing what he is doing, expecting it to work.

I accepted that things would not change, hence I stopped responding, maybe next it will be time to block these messages getting through as they just serve to disturb my peace.
G