Confusion and second guessing

[Doore]

So I'm back in contact with my sister, though this was out of her ringing me at work multiple times to force a reconciliation.I felt pushed into it as she has my work contact details and I was embarrassed my coworkers would see.

She spent a long time crying, screaming and making me admit my faults and lack of regard for her, I was so tired after 6 hours of this during work that I said what she wanted to hear. I felt so ashamed of myself after all the work I've done in therapy. She just kepttelling me how I need to treat her better that she's not abusive towards me but her actions are a result of my past mistreatments of her that I was uand the pain from being so tired and neglected and not thought of for "years".

We were meant to have scheduled for phone calls to catch up. She has cancelled the last two calls. Today I made time for a call at 5 pm which I confirmed on Saturday. She has sent another email of how tired she is and how I don't use my heart or head to think of how alone she is or how I take for granted the love and respect I receive from my partner yet I can't even give her basic human decency or thought...because I asked what number I should to ring her on as her phone was "broken" and her work one is what she previously called me on.

I feel like I'm being set up but to keep my sanity and mental health I'm keeping my boundaries by prearranging a time.

Am I overthinking or genuinely being unkind? I feeling like I'm
being setup to fail.

Thanks, Dora

[moglow]

She has sent another email of how tired she is and how I don't use my heart or head to think of how alone she is or how I take for granted the love and respect I receive from my partner yet I can't even give her basic human decency or thought...because I asked what number I should to ring her on as her phone was "broken" and her work one is what she previously called me on....

 I feeling like I'm being setup to fail.

Doore, I don't even know her and that's my impression as well. You called when you said you would and it's somehow a problem. Had you not called as agreed or cancelled for any reason, I guarantee there'd have been a similar email about how you don't care. She's making her own judgments and assumptions of your feelings or presumed motives, without bothering to actually talk with you. And honestly, does she bother to ask about YOU? Is there any indication that other people exist at all? If you respond, you said something she doesn't like. If you don't respond, that's also wrong.

You're not trying to speak for her or force your own on her, it looks to me like you're trying to be accepting of wherever she is and let her work through it [not unreasonable, btw]. She's lashing out from her own stuff, and it's really not yours to fix or even cater to. Our purpose isn't to tippy toe around others and try to guess what they might be needing right that minute. It's on each of us to communicate with others from wherever we are. She chooses not to? You can't drag it out of her. She makes baseless assumptions? You don't have to explain or justify them for her.

Honestly, I don't see where you need to feel shamed here. You did what you needed at the time to get through a[nother] difficult forced confrontation. The fact that she can't respect even your work responsibilities speaks volumes. Going forward I'd probably have to institute a "no personal calls at work ever" policy and she'd just have to be mad. Good jobs aren't so plentiful on the ground these days that we can trample all over them and our coworkers that way. She needs to scream it out? Go to therapy, do it there. My job is not the place and she'd be removed as trespassing/disturbing the peace.

This is just sad to me. I've seen similar from my mother as far back as I can remember, and I've finally backed away to the holiday and generic greeting card level contact with her. I'm pretty sure she alienated everyone around by that same stuff, and for far too long it just seemed easier to go along and placate her in the name of "peace." Nothing was enough or "right" so I learned to accommodate as best I can for myself.

[moglow]

And btw, you can adjust your boundaries whenever you need, in whatever way you need. For her you may need some hard and firm, no conversations while you're at work boundaries. There is nothing you can do for her then that can't be done some other time. Worse six hours of it, being screamed and cried over all the ways you let her down? Oh hell no. She has responsibilities to herself, just as each of us do. Fixing her psyche is NOT your responsibility. Taking on all the blame and abuse for how miserable she is with her own choices, also not your responsibility.

I know the meltdowns are painful and you're trying to find a way to make them stop. They really do serve no useful purpose, for anyone. She's refusing to see that and refusing to accept responsibility for herself. You can have compassion for her without making it all yours to carry.

[walking on broken glass]

Doore, I am so sorry. Just reading your story I felt asphyxiated. Don't blame yourself for being a human! Your sister wore you down and you had to give her what she wanted to get your peace. But now you can see that this doesn't last long. When you give in to the BPD's tantrums they want more and more, and they are never satisfied no matter what you give. The best you can do is get out, remove yourself from this harmful situation. Is there a particular reason you want to be in touch with her? If it is not necessary by any means, keep your distance and don't do any phone calls. Establish your boundaries: you can't be reached at work. You are very busy, you boss frowns upon calls, you can't talk while you work, period. Don't offer to talk if she cancels. Don't offer to talk because you feel you have to, especially after she has abused you. Look after yourself! I know it sounds very difficult to do but I promise you that 1. she has no power over you if you don't give her any, and 2. you will feel so much better in the long run if you stick to your boundaries. It doesn't have to be that way.

[Doore]

Update:

This morning received an email demanding I apologise and how low and sducidal she felt I responded that I would speak to her when I can and that I would not be apologising for asking what number I should've called her and that suicidal  feelings are serious and she needs to go seek medical help. she respond with the below email, which I have rewritten so it's not searchable and won't break forum rules.

"Dora, you've opted to accept my words by constructing a specific narrative and overlooking key points. Dora, I want to clarify that I didn't accuse you of doing anything.

Dora, you showed no intention to meet, listen, or read.

Dora, I'm tired. Dora , I'm frightened.

Dora, I'm lonely, unheard, and lacking any way for human contact.

I'm exhausted with life; I wish I weren't naive.

Dora, you've consistently chosen this path, as you've admitted before. Dora, you persist in this, and the toll on me is unbelievable. When I cry and feel heartbroken, it's used to advising me to seek help, rest, and feel better.

Dora , you've ruined us. You're  as selfish and manipulative, and it appears you won't change. It's not anger; it's the truth. Just like my truth—I'm alone, and my time and hope have left me with mere words and labels after being let down, lied to, and drained.

I've become like our mother I'm beyond of hoping you'll see and be decent.

Dora, you've moved on in life, and I wanted you to do the same with me, helping me move forward.

Dora, you're not that person, you're not a sister.

I'm bone tired of this heartache and misery that has become from you through narrative and manipulation.

Dora , you can't and won't see the impact on me. Maybe at night when you can't sleep or on your wedding day.

Soda, enjoy your wedding. Dora, your constant cycling, filled with your life, people, and love, is beyond comprehension or understanding for me.I'm left to deal with the aftermath until the next cycle, and it unfolds the way you dictate, much like the last time.

I'm terrified for my life and future. I can't continue wanting to believe this isn't intentional, chosen, and im not a burden that you have to keep  based on being my blood and ourhistory.

I'll never find courage to kill myself; I feel like a coward.

Wishing you a good wedding and life."

Feeling so stressed but also trying to be firm on my boundaries. It feels overwhelming how a simple question has escalated so quickly. She forced us to reconnect, cancelled after a reconciliation she pushed on me and now again it's me abandoning her and not doing right by her. We haven't spoke in two weeks and all I asked was what number shall I ring her on.

[Doore]

You can have compassion for her without making it all yours to carry.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and insights. It sounds like you have been dealing with such a very similar situation, I really appreciate your response and empathy in how this can be challenging.

How does your mother typically respond when you try to set boundaries or discuss your own feelings with her?

[Doore]

she has no power over you if you don't give her any, and 2. you will feel so much better in the long run if you stick to your boundaries. It doesn't have to be that way.

Thank you so much your understanding. It's truly challenging, and I often feel breathless and confused navigating through these situations with her. My sister hasn't received a specific diagnosis beyond major depression, and she seems resistant to seeking further help. She interprets her therapist's guidance as attributing her struggles to mistreatment and a lack of support. It's difficult, as she holds me responsible for her low self-esteem, confidence, and feelings of isolation. Despite initially not wanting to reconnect, I found myself forced into it through intrusive actions like calls to my workplace. I ended up taking on responsibilities that weren't mine after an exhaustive 8-hour phone call.

Your words resonate deeply. It's true, giving in to her demands only seems to fuel the cycle. Establishing clear boundaries, especially regarding work, seems crucial. Ive previously be in touch with her because of familial ties, but it's evident that my well-being is being effected, Ive felt so numb essentially as I have admitted agreed and apologised to things to keep the peace causing me to feel self betrayal.

Your advice about not offering to talk after abuse and sticking to boundaries is valuable. It's reassuring to hear that setting boundaries doesn't have to be a permanent struggle and that prioritizing my own mental health is a valid choice. Thank you for your thoughtful response

[walking on broken glass]

Doore, I am sending you a big hug. I am so sorry you have to go through this. I read your sister's message and oh my god. I am a stranger and got affected, I can't imagine what it must be like for you. Your sister is not currently in any place to have a structured conversation. She is just lashing out, like a frightened child ("I hate you - don't leave me!"). You did very well by sticking to your guns and telling her what the facts were. She knows you are right and this is why she is having a tantrum. I am thinking how you could deal with the message. I think I would reply something along the lines: "I am sorry you are going through a hard time. I don't have the tools to help you as I am not a mental health professional. I care about you and will notify the x (insert here relevant authorities. Here you can find a list https://outofthefog.website/emergency ) who can offer help and support. I hope you find inner peace. I have to get some distance and space for my own mental health. I wish you well." Then I would block her. You can decide to unblock her at a later stage, if you feel like it. What do you think?

[treesgrowslowly]

  So true what walking on glass said - this looks like an "I hate you don't leave me" situation.

Hi Doore,

This is a tough position that she has put you in. 

She's going after you to fix her abandonment feelings. You can't fix those.

One of the things I learned in my own fog work, is that healthy families teach members how to support one another - unhealthy families teach enmeshment. In my family, we were not shown how to support each other, we were expected to maintain the enmeshment that actually prevented us from healthy relationships. Your sister's behavior reminds me of the enmeshed people in my family - going after the family members with empathy (i.e. me) to demand that we fix their anxiety for them.

My understanding, just from learning a bit about it is that people with these symptoms can learn how to manage their anxiety, but it is a challenge for them. 

https://www.verywellmind.com/mood-swings-in-borderline-personality-disorder-425478

If she's got a lot of untreated symptoms (i.e. mood swings, anxiety), and those are causing her misery, it sounds like she's bringing it to you to fix. The message in a dysfunctional family system is that our siblings / relatives will fix us. Our siblings are responsible for us. Those are messages in dysfunctional systems and that is the belief she seems to have. That if you give her what she wants, this will fix her anxiety.

But siblings can't fix major mental health problems for each other. The proper healthy role for us is to support our siblings (in ways that are safe for us) not fix our siblings. But that requires them to realize that those are their symptoms to manage.

This concept was not even present in my FOO. The idea that you would support someone without being enmeshed with them was foreign to them. I got no where when I tried to offer support without enmeshment. Which is why your situation feels familiar to me. That demand for enmeshment is intense in some families.

It is by no means easy to have a sibling or other relative put these demands on us. It can be confusing- we have empathy and compassion for them, while needing to hold strong boundaries. I think that is what led to you wondering if you were being unkind in your first post. It is normal for a person with empathy to wonder if they are being kind or not.  The people who don't ask this about themselves are people with low levels of empathy / compassion. So you have empathy, and your sister knows this. 

Interrupting you at work for hours is a sign of how intense her anxiety is. Anxiety is treatable, but right now it sounds like she wants you to fix it for her.

What do you think will help you to manage right now? It's not easy to have empathy and compassion while also holding strong boundaries with someone who is clearly in pain. It is one of the hardest parts of being the compassionate one in a dysfunctional family system.

In dysfunctional families, we are often forced into feeling responsible for others, especially for those family members who are acting out the most. After I went NC, a reaction I got was basically a very immature accusation of "how dare you stop taking care of all of us?" ...without a trace of self-awareness on their part that they had cast me as their doctor / healer / caretaker / parent. Not sure if that resonates with you but it is one way that dysfunctional families tend to treat us / see us.

Trees

[walking on broken glass]

 

All of the things you said resonated with me, trees! Thank you for putting it so succinctly. It is so true, enmeshment is what I was taught as well, baptized as empathy.

[moglow]

You can have compassion for her without making it all yours to carry.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and insights. It sounds like you have been dealing with such a very similar situation, I really appreciate your response and empathy in how this can be challenging.

How does your mother typically respond when you try to set boundaries or discuss your own feelings with her?

Doore, my mother isn't remotely interested in my thoughts, boundaries, feelings or anything else. It took me an awfully long time to come to this realization -even after she told me specifically she didn't want to hear it. I don't exist for her, no one does. All that matters for her is her stuff, the imagined slights and insults, being perpetually a martyr and victim of it all. She spews the ugliest accusations and vitriol at others, and I honestly don't know how she never finds bottom. She just keeps digging.

Much like with your sister - if I said something to her, I shouldnt have, or I said the wrong thing in the wrong words at the wrong time. If I asked when is a good time to call, that was a problem. She heard a tone, saw some twist of the mouth or eye movement that meant something. If i didn't say anything or refused to respond to her goading, that was wrong - it meant I didn't care or I was insulting her in some way. Always damned if I do damned if I don't.

My boundary became, I don't talk to her unless I actually have something to say. I don't give her information/ammunition about my life. I don't call when I'm tired or sick or anxious or anything less-than. If she's clearly upset or agitated, I let her know I'll need to talk with her some other time and end the call. If I tell her I'll talk to her on Sunday, I don't answer calls, texts etc until then. She cancels or isn't available? Then next Sunday it is. It took many years and this is a hard won peace - i refuse to take steps back into that chaos.

People show us who they are, Doore. It's up to us to respect ourselves and them enough to pay attention to that. Your sister spewing how you've done everything wrong and she's alone? That's all on her. I'm sure she does feel that way but know what? She feeds it, over and over again. She shoves you -and no doubt others- away by demanding they be everything she needs them to be. And there's no reciprocation - she doesn't seem to listen or pay attention to you or the fact that you have your own stuff to deal with. No empathy or compassion coming from her, like my mother.

I understand she's sick and I'm sorry she's that way, you need to understand that you can't cure that for her.

[Cat of the Canals]

Oh Doore. Reading your sister's letter, the level of manipulation is off the charts. Threatening suicide, suggesting that it's your fault she's unhappy, trying to make you feel guilty for getting married... yikes.

She's trying to entice you back on the hamster wheel that keeps you running forever in one big circle of trying to appease her and bending over backward to meet her demands. You will always be wrong, all the sacrifices you make will never be enough, because that's how she keeps you on the wheel, constantly trying to do just a *little* more in hopes of satisfying her.

This is a game that does not end. People like your sister have a bottomless hole of need that will always need filling. You can not fix her. She likely doesn't even want to be fixed, because this is the only way she knows to manage her emotions: make it someone else's problem.

Imagine something for a moment: imagine you were to give her literally everything she wants from you. Break things off with your fiance, ditch your friends, quit your job. Devote 100% of your time to your sister. Doing everything she asks of you. Spend every waking minute catering to her needs. Would she be happy/satisfied? Would all of her problems finally be solved? I think we both no the answer is no. There would very quickly be a new list of endless complaints of all the ways she is miserable, and it is somehow your fault.

[Doore]

Walking on broken glass, trees grow slowly, moglow and cat of the canals your responses of care and warmth and support and giving me coping strategies have really got me through this week.


Walking on broken glass:

- You are so spot on, I've had a think on my sister's behaviours and I can see it as you correctly phrased it as "I hate you - don't leave me" and sadly it really highlighting the emotional turmoil she is going through.
- she has sent more emails and I have simply done as you have said of sticking to facts, ignored them all and replied after a couple days in the gist of "I love you very much, I have done nothing wrong. I would gain nothing from hurting you. I can't control how you feel about me, I'm sorry you feel that way regardless."
 - She is fixated on the notion I "use" her mental health against her when I would say I'm not equipped or that I am not the cause of her suicidal feelings though still says "call me I'm so unwell" etc so I daren't send her any links or resources.
- I have blocked my sister and stated I would be in touch as our interaction was not good for my personal mental health. The temptation to explain or make it into a me issue was high because I don't want her to feel bad or take on my issues, when she's dealing with her own mental health. Though I know that disclosing and being authentic rather than sheltering her from my emotions or needs or distress has played a role in our dynamic.


Trees grow slowly:

- Thank you for making me aware of role of enmeshment in dysfunctional families and how it relates to my sister's demands, it's an understatement to say it was eye opening. As much as I think I don't play a role I really have from a young age, I realise how I am so guarded from letting my emotions on other people and trying to alleviate situations for people and problem fixing and people pleasing. I really need to work on it because as I read resentment isn't far off for those who do what I've been doing. I feel like I have a Pavlovian response to her distress and I do everything only for it to not alleviate or satisfy her.
- "how dare you stop taking care of all of us?" ...without a trace of self-awareness on their part that they had cast me as their doctor / healer / caretaker / parent. Not sure if that resonates with you"
-This this THIS. Nothing fixes it nothing is enough and no self awareness of how it may affect me, but I need to ensure that while I'm planting and trying to be compassionate that I balance it with boundaries and the truth. No more protecting to keep the peace. It makes sense she thinks I am making "false promises" and "lack humanity" because I'm apologising for her own self sabotage and taking on what isn't mine not was ever mine to save her the discomfort of reconciling that her life is hers and her discomfort is hers and her emotions are hers.

Moglows;

- I am so very sorry that you have gone through this with your mother, that's the most heartbreaking thing that nothing will help and anything makes it worse. "Always damned if I do damned if I don't"
- Your mother's constant digging and alert for being insulted and offended sounds exactly like my sister. I hope you didn't have to deal with it for too long, it's been comping up to a year and a half of this and exhausted is an understatement of how I feel!
-I thank you so deeply for the boundaries I've taken from your own work Out of the FOG: I will only engage in conversations with purpose. guard personal information, avoid calls when not in a state that will make me not think clearly, be firmly politely to delay talks if she's upset. resist early responses via email/text/call, I will reschedule if canceled; uphold consistency.

Cat of the Canals' Post:

-The threats and guilt-tripping really shake me up and fill me with dread; she actually cried so hard when I told her I was getting married and not the good kind! I've been putting it off for past year and a half as I never thought I'd be without her on my wedding day but she went no contact week before I moved house and now after her forcing contact and I (stupidly) told her I was getting married so as not to hurt her. It's happening in three weeks and she's now blocked me told me to have a nice life while she suffers and hopes at night, wedding day, when I have kids live with the guilt of how I've treated her. Though logically she's said this before I sense a truth of her realising I'm choosing my self and my life as selfish as that is and making me pay.
- I really appreciate your words on ceasing the cycle of trying to appease my sister's endless demands. Your imagined scenario is what I needed to hear (read!) because while I'm trying to do all these things to give her what she's asking of me, my life is still going on and I've not been present in it. The game carries on as long as I am a player in it. When she removed me by going NC for three months I was the issue, when I'm silent I'm the issue when I'm keeping the peace it's the same. What's that Albert Einstein quote of "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" do, say, show, agree...nothing helps nothing changes.
- Emphasises has always been "what will you do Dora, admit Dora, please change Dora, think of me Dora, admit Dora" and I did it all and your right the inability to fix/meet/calm/reassure my sister's issues. Being demanded to talk quicker or text locations or change tone or stop crying and DOING it is playing the role of a hamster on a wheel.

As an update:

I received several emails pointing out my shortcomings and asking me in my acknowledging the need to apologise on my actions and her situation in life. She labeled me a toxic narcissist, expressing hatred and stating I'll never change. This I believe from refusing her call at work, leading to her mentioning feeling unwell and suicidal. That and all your messages made me realize setting boundaries was important. When I'd pick up or call she'd still say how low and unwell and sducidal she felt. Both of my actions of six hours of calls and holding form same outcome.  Apologising for placating her affected her self-esteem clearly, it implies she's difficult and I should have thought it through three months ago when I admitted I've said yes and sorry to so many things that I didn't do. I've taken time to calm my anxiety and grief, Today, I expressed love and stated the fact I have nothing to gain from causing pain, I have done nothing wrong and I'm sorry that she's hurting. Though I should have left it my love for her and the pain she's in made me email her. My sister who I love so dearly has become a stranger and it's breaking me heart.

Thank you all again so deeply and truly

[Cat of the Canals]

So you are supposedly this selfish, horrible, mean, cruel, toxic, narcissistic person... and yet she desperately seeks you out. If someone was truly that awful, they'd be the last person I'd go to for comfort! It makes zero sense, it's the opposite of logical. As are most PD arguments.

[walking on broken glass]

I am so sorry Doore. You are doing the right thing - and not only for yourself. What you are doing is also good for your sister, even though she can't see it. She needs boundaries, otherwise you are enabling her to behave badly and have constant tantrums. It is not easy but it gets easier with time. The first time I stood up and left a conversation with my sister, when she started shouting at me in a public café, I went home and was shaking for hours. Of course she called my parents and told them that after I left the waitress came to ask if everything is alright and whether she should call the police because it looked like she was abusing me (!). It was clearly made up but funny she didn't realize that even in the fake story she came across as the abuser!

Anyways, your wedding clearly triggered your sister - hence all this. The storm will pass! Keep repeating to yourself "I didn't cause it - I can't cure it". It is very important to remember!