Advice on how to handle friend's unwanted "help"

[clara]

While I know this site is for PD relationships, since so many of you have such a wide variety of experience dealing with people with all kinds of disorders, I thought I'd see what input you might have.  This friend has what I can only describe as a pathological need to be seen as useful.  Her statements are full of "why don't you" and "maybe you should" even when you're not asking for her help.  Make a simple statement about how you burned the toast and she'll say, well, next time why don't you...  I know she was raised in a home where she was expected to be the "responsible one" even though she was a middle child, and she was especially expected to help with a brother who was seriously mentally ill.  Except she's hung onto those behaviors into adulthood and imposes them on all of her relationships in this sort of "take charge" manner where she can very quickly disempower you.  Instead of allowing you do to something and leave you alone to do it, she jumps in to try to either show you how it should be done, or does it for you. 

I've tried making simple statements, like you don't need to help, I've got it, etc.  Just keep it bland and non-confrontational, but she doesn't get it.  I know she means well, so I don't want to get angry.  But she's getting worse the older she gets and the smaller her social circle gets.  Now every conversation involves some level of her "helping", and she's even given me "advice" on how to drive even though she herself doesn't drive!  Is this a habit that is too far gone to ever break, and since she's older is she past the age where she can understand how dysfunctional this dynamic can be?  I enjoy being with her (well, right now we're not associating because of Covid) but this habit of hers is starting to trigger me into my old habit of snapping back because her approach reminds me of my own family where everything and anything I did seemed open for criticism.  I know she's not openly criticizing, but often it feels like she subtly is.  Like I'm not capable, or can't understand.  Should I just ignore it?  Oh, I don't know!  Any suggestions or insight would be appreciated!  Maybe even why it bothers me so much and why I can't just let her be herself if it makes her happy? 

[notrightinthehead]

if you really like her and you want to continue with this relationship and want her to know how her behaviour affects you, you could try telling her 'when you say why don't you, I feel ....e.g. incompetent, belittled, insecure....... because .....e.g. my parents always criticised me, I can do it just fine.......and that makes me .....want to pull away, cut contact, criticise you.  So I ask you to stop doing that, and just let me do my thing without your well meant suggestions, otherwise I won't be able to continue having contact with you.  After you made that statement you can let that sit with her and see what happens.

[hhaw]

Clara:

All I can say is...... speak to your friend the way you'd want someone to speak to you about something like this.

And I think "this" is your friend NEEEEEDING everyone around her to BE OK, which is codependence, which is really hard to face and deal with, IME. 

Likely, it will help her to identify her habits and work towards more self care and less focus outside herself to meet her needs.  That's just not healthy, in any case... even if it wasn't bugging you.... it's not a healthy way to spend the rest of her life when she could have more joy dependent on her inner world.

Lots of compassion for you and your friend. 

Good luck,

[clara]

Thanks for the input!

I've been reluctant to make an issue of it because in the past I could pretty well brush it off, so she's gotten used to being this way with me.  It's just more recently it seems to have ratcheted up to the point where she's making statements that almost don't make sense, as if she's really reaching for something to be "helpful" with and coming up with something, anything...  I suppose that now, yes, I need to remember that my feelings matter and if it bothers me I have to approach her in a way that isn't hurtful, in a way that makes her understand without her getting on the defensive.  Maybe she can't change her behavior, but she can be made aware that it bothers me and then from that point she can decide what to do.

But...I never really thought of it as being a codependent behavior, yet that's exactly what it is.  I've seen how she's developed co-dependency with others, where they start to "need" her because she's encouraged them to believe it, and they've developed a mutual benefit from her giving and their receiving.  Two people in her life now seem to rely heavily on her taking care of them, and she likes telling me about how much work she's doing for them.  I once even told her that one of those people--her roommate--are the way they are because she's actively encouraged that dependent behavior.  She acknowledged the fact of it, but didn't acknowledge that she had a problem with it.  At that point, I just shut up.  I've tried to encourage her to re-focus some of her considerable energy into doing things for herself, but she won't unless I actively start pushing her and I don't like doing that because I then get the feeling that she's only doing it to please me! 

She's even tried to get me to "help" others, people who've not asked for her help and really don't need it, and I've said no, they're doing okay, or that's work I don't feel physically able to do etc. (a lot of it is actual physical labor, such as when we're camping and she sees other campers she thinks need help).  I've told her, we don't need to be doing that, and then I simply don't do it.  Once she even tried to help someone push a truck out of the mud when there were plenty of young guys around who were way more capable of doing it!  I guess when things go back to normal, I'll simply have to be prepared in advance for her behavior (which I admit I haven't been, I've sort of hoped it would just stop) and rehearse responses I can make rather than just react. 

Again, thanks for the input, hhaw and notright!

[hhaw]

You can't change your friend or force her to understand your POV.

All you can do is speak to her with empathy, explain your feelings, and let her know you accept her as a human being... it's just this one behavior you have an issue with.

She might find a good deal of relief IF she SEEs her actions from your perspective.  Maybe her nose is on a pebble, and your POV will help her see the entire field..... how her actions affect others AND her own life.

It wouldn't be easy to make that sort of change, but it would likely be a huge relief if she did, IMO.  Your speaking up would be appropriate...bc... boundaries.  Also, it would be with the best possible intentions... as a good friend who cares.

I guess...  drop judgment.... drop expectation... and do what you can, then put that problem on the shelf and stop worrying about it. '

Worst case scenario, you remind this friend, gently, when she oversteps a stated boundary.  Maybe you can laugh about it soon.

Good luck,

[Wilderhearts]

It's just more recently it seems to have ratcheted up to the point where she's making statements that almost don't make sense, as if she's really reaching for something to be "helpful" with and coming up with something, anything... 

It absolutely could be codependency, but this sounds much like the type of "helping" that I experienced from a covert N friend.  She needed to be "right" about everything, she needed to "correct" everything I did, and have all the answers, even when she didn't.  It was about driving at times too - she drives dangerously, like an entitled jerk, but if I looked left when I was supposed to, she'd tell me to look right.  She would also argue against logic or make a hypocrite of herself, if it gave her an excuse to "correct" me.

The difference I've experienced between codependent help and covert narc "help" is that codependents enable people to shirk responsibility, and act out of fear that the object of their rescue won't be OK if they don't "help."  Covert narc "help," however, communicates how incompetent you are, and how badly you must need them and their "superior" skills and intellect.  The thing is, they need to take you down a notch in the process of offering "help," to belittle you into believing you need what they have.  My non-M is extremely codependent, but she never makes nonsense arguments or imposes help in a belittling way.

You know her and the situation better than anybody, and can probably sense her motivations, which I think would be the determining factor in whether this is covert narc behaviour, or codependency.  Does it seem like this is her projecting confidence and superiority to hide her low self-esteem from herself,  and knowingly sabotaging people in her life by making them dependent on her?  Or is she so afraid of people experiencing the consequences of their actions that she's protecting them from themselves, having been conditioned to believe her worth is in the help she gives others?

I suppose that now, yes, I need to remember that my feelings matter and if it bothers me I have to approach her in a way that isn't hurtful, in a way that makes her understand without her getting on the defensive. 

Yes, your feelings and how you're affected by her behaviour absolutely matter.  I'm glad to hear you're owning that, and stating it.  No matter what is motivating her behaviour, you have a right to speak your boundaries.

However, you're not responsible for how she reacts to what you say, or if she gets defensive.  Only for what you say and how you say it.  It sounds like everyone here is on the non-violent communication train of "when you do X, I feel Y," which is awesome.  Another thing I've learned from non-violent communication is to express your values, and how those inform what you need from others.  Maybe you value your independence, so you need her to treat you in a way that recognizes how capable and independent you actually are.

I think HHaw painted a very realistic positive outcome...I hope that it what you experience.  Feel free to let us know how it goes

[LemonLime]

I recognize my very co-dependent Mom in your story.
Nowadays I might say "OK if I vent for 3 minutes?  No input needed".
Or
"We don't need to troubleshoot this;  it is what it is"  when she jumps in to give tips and tricks.

Maybe it comes off a bit harsh, I don't know.   But it's far better than me getting steamed over her need to "fix" me.   That is a real trigger for me and the conversation goes downhill after that.   So it's the lesser of the two evils.   FWIW

[hhaw]

I think we have a chance of being heard IF we don't make someone feel defensive.... but then.....
I'm the type to give people enough rope to hang themselves with.  Always have been.


I'm also an optimist, though I've vowed many times to give up hope in redemption.. .other people's redemption, that is.   

If they can't hear... they can't hear, IME.  Or they turn things around and accuse us of whatever, being a bad friend, being ungrateful... THEN there's more than a very industrious friend DOING DOING DOING bc it feels good and they get their needs met from outside sources.

I remember the phrase...

"Helping is the sunny side of control."

That's definitely a thing, and people who NEED to be right all the time, needed to have all the answers, need to force their will on others.....
that's something more complicated than I want to deal with or can deal with... certainly the having to be rigtht all the time is... more than codependence, IME .

But the gently pointing out what's going on FOR ME......
hmm.....
lately I've been on a rant about not being heard my entire life.

Wishing I'd been more... whatever one has to be to BE HEARD.... and I'm listening to you Wilderhearts.

I need practice speaking so people can't ignore me, and if they do.... I have
to state consequences, and follow through.   It's new for me.  It's new. 

I think it's a mistake to assume everyone has my motives and intentions,  and it's a pattern to assume.  Give the benefit of the doubt. Treat people the way I'd like to be treated, etc.

Somewhere in there protection has to factor in, and we learn to limit the people  and situations that cost us too much without payoff.   

That's true.

[clara]

Yeah, there's a larger issue here and that's my feelings about having spent so  much of my life feeling ignored, like I'm not being heard, like no one's listening.  This definitely started in childhood where my mom (I never tried to talk with my dad, there was no point) would brush aside so much of what I said and change the subject.  She did this well into my adulthood, and I got used to it but never liked it.  I just learned not to confide in her until much later, after my father died and she seemed more willing to listen to me. 

But not listening...bingo!  My friend listens in the moment, then promptly forgets what you said.  She only seems to listen and remember when the person is someone who has some sort of "status" in her life, like a boss, or someone she particularly admires.  Then, she'll remember what they said word-for-word and will often repeat their stories to me, as if I'm actually interested in conversations she's had with someone I don't know or barely know!  She even once told me she had an argument with her roommate after the roommate accused her of asking the same questions over and over with the roommate giving the same answers over and over and why doesn't she listen the first time!  My friend excused her behavior in a sort of, sorry I'm just forgetful, reply, but she's not forgetful.  She remembers when she wants to or has to.  With certain people, it's as if she doesn't value them enough to be bothered.  I think part of the problem is she takes us for granted.  We're there, we're reliable etc. 

I think she walks a line between co-dependency and covert narcissism.  She definitely has narc traits in that she reimagines reality in her favor, but I also see it as a defense mechanism.  She seems to feel inferior to others so goes out of her way to feel either "equal" or "better," not understanding that non-competition with others is a viable option.  Honestly, I think one of the major reasons she likes having me as a friend is because I don't arouse those competitive feelings in her, because I don't do anything to encourage it.   Her need to control others through excessive "usefulness" is also an attempt to deal with the feelings of inferiority she has.  By being able to control them, she's able to feel better about herself. 

I appreciate all the help in dealing with this!  I know it's really not that big of a deal, and I can handle it because I have been, but it's nice to  know I'm not totally off-base with my concerns (my tendency to second-guess myself is an old habit that's been hard to break).  Thanks again.

And Kat, I will definitely remember the "we don't need to troubleshoot this" line!

[cookiecat]

Clara,

"My friend excused her behavior in a sort of, sorry I'm just forgetful, reply, but she's not forgetful.  She remembers when she wants to or has to.  With certain people, it's as if she doesn't value them enough to be bothered.  I think part of the problem is she takes us for granted.  We're there, we're reliable etc."

Wow this statement hits home.  I had a narc friend (brought me to this site), this describes exactly her.  And some friends with just tendencies.  I seem to attract people who eventually take me for granted and I feel like chopped liver (nothing I say is remembered, but like you said, people they PERCEIVE to have status...they remember word for word, smh).  I find that because I don't really have much "drama" going on, I get less attention.  Squeaky wheel, etc... Very frustrating..

Have you tried humor stuff with your mother hen friend?  I agree it's probably codependent behavior on her part, but she seems stuck in her ways.   If she tries correcting you, do your best Forrest Gump imitation🤷🏼‍♀️.   You usually give the best advice on this site, what would you tell yourself? ❤️

[clara]

Interesting that you mention about the humor, cookie, because one of the reasons we've remained friends over the years (despite all my annoyance with her, and I suspect she often gets equally annoyed with me!) is because we can easily share humor.  She responds to it, yes, and often our humor can go into really stupid directions but I sometimes get the impression I'm seeing the real "her" when she's just goofing.  She seems to feel safe then in dropping the "mother hen" role and just having a good time, rolling with it.  I never thought that it was my attempt to re-direct her energies but I suppose it is!  It's weird to think you're using tools you don't even realize you're using.