First appointment with lawyer, husband has scheduled counselling...

[lincoe]

Long story short...
1. Married for 15 yrs, with two young children (almost 6 and 2). Known husband for total of 17 yrs.
2. History of physical and verbal abuse, left on two occasions and returned. (last time was in 2015 with 1 yr old).
3. New start, moved over to US and had baby.
4. Decided in the last year that relationship was nonexistent, suspect he is narcissist (through my own therapist and accessing this site). So decided to see a mediation lawyer first (overly optimistic that this could work!) and now scheduled to see divorce lawyer this week-husband does not know.
5. I've pushed for counselling for us. He agreed when we were separated but did not keep up when we moved to US and so I did solo. I've pushed for counselling for our eldest, again he did not support. I tried again with the approach that we improve our parenting. I thought at least we can get ideas to co-parent through what I imagine will be a high conflict divorce.
6. He has told me that he is going to give up drinking and asked for support (I said 'of course, let me know how'; his response was stop doing xy and z...) Now he has made an appointment for joint counselling. I've been using the grey rock technique and I think he knows this is a way to get me on board.

My question is around how do I manage this counselling to not look like the bad guy, I'm aware that narcissists can twist therapists and that he could be using this further down the road for evidence in a divorce. And is there any hope for co-parenting with a narcissist? How do I protect my kids from manipulation from their day, he's been known to twist things...'your mother doesn't want me to give you candy for not having toilet accidents' or 'your mother doesnt want us to be a family' or 'to do activities' etc

Thanks

[hhaw]

Lord, what a terrible thing to say to a little child about toilet accidents. 

Ummm.... you can't control the PD or what he says or does.  What you can do is help your children understand their father is ill and makes sad choices.  You can validate their experience and ask them how they feel about it..... kids are pretty smart, IME.   They typically know whats what, particularly if we don't make them feel defensive about the other parent.  Kids need to love both parents.  I never said anything negative about my husband to the kids bc they're half me and half him.  I wanted the kids to have a strong image of who they are, feel loved and worthy of that love so ...... nothing negative.   

The counselor for oldest sounds like a really good idea.  You might be able to get that in place BEFORE you file for divorce.  Once you file the PD will block you in every way imaginable, and then some,  IME.  You can SAY it's for anything..... it doesn't have to be about the impending high conflcit divorce, KWIM?

About the PD giving up alcohol bc presumably it's part of the reason why he abuses you..... document it like crazy.  Any way that's legal.  Alcoholism is something everyone can understand, and PDs are not, IME. 

As you approach divorce THINK about your evidence as it will be what you formulate the theory of your case around.  You aren't going to blather on about every insane thing your stbx PD has done to you..... you will focus on those things you can prove, leaving out the rest. 

Maybe tell your attorney more than you can prove, but likely better if you don't, IME. 

IF your pd touches you in an ungentle manner.... screams at you in front of the kids.... throws the tv button at you GET A RESTRAINING ORDER.  You don't have to allow someone to frighten and harm you during this process.  The TRO will help a Judge see you're serious about the divorce, not going to allow abusive treatment of you or the children, and mentally healthy enough to ask for and require help to get out of this marriage without faffing about, allowing the PD to manipulate you in and out of your own self interests.

Put together a good exit plan, then carry it out....... zero or very little contact with the PD is good bc you can start thinking straight again AND he won't talk you into doing things that sabotage your ability to utilize the court system.  They threaten things then SAY they'll give you a peaceful divorce if you just.... (insert thing that undermines you.)

Get a few good people in your corner, who understand your situation, then depend on them to help you stay level.  HIRE A GOOD ATTORNEY then listen to them.   

When your kids come to you in tears...... "Daddy said (insert crazy making terrible thing to drive you over the edge) ask your children what they think about what Daddy did or said.  Then listen.  Mine always figured it out,  bc I was the consistent calm parent who did everything with and for the kids.  I was the only present parent in their lives, even if stbx took them to the ice cream store and dollar tree during the divorce a few times, which was all he'd ever done as a parent. 

Kids know, so be calm consistent mum, document your arse off, and organize your evidence by topic....
E mails
Child safety issues
Visitation
Medications
Notes and letters
Texts

Don't say or do anything that makes you look unsteady.  Once you file, stay that path. 

Do not fear a trial.  Typically it's the quickest way OUT of court with a PD who doesn't want a divorce, IME. 

Court is your friend, bc you'll have evidence and back up everything you say.  The PD will allege much, and document almost nothing or nothing at all, IME.

Expect the PD to snow at least one person, but remember... he can't snow everyone,  and he won't.  Just stay calm.   Do what you can, then parent and be present with your children... release the outcome, bc worrying is a terrible coping strategy to model for your children, IME.

It's going to be OK... even if it's not OK.

And at this point.... you're mitigating harm to your kids, bc the PD will likely leverage their safety to gain your compliance.  If you stay level, the PD will likely out himself. 

You can't control the PD so don't even try.  Don't listen to him.  Don't do what he asks you to do. 

HIDE your cherished posessions before you file.

Get things in place for the kids before you file..... the court likes to keep the status quo in place, so get the Therapy.... whatever you need.... in place before filing. 

How do you think separation will go?  You can't leave the PD once you file.  You can't run or hide unless he's actively harming you...... so think that through.   

You CAN leave if you haven't filed,  and you better document cause with focus on the drinking and harm you can prove. 

Can you record conversations in your state legally?  Figure out how to do that... ,most phones do that these days.

What about bank accounts?  Bills?  Credit cards?  Tax records... the PD will thwart and sabotage you every way he can, and then some once you've filed so get done what you need to before he knows you've filed.

Good luck,

[capybara]

If you're happy with your T, I would strategize with him/her about how to handle couples therapy. You are right that a therapist can get snowed. I would try to find one experienced with PD, or at least with high conflict couples. If you or your spouse has any trauma history, a couples therapist who is experienced in trauma counselling may also be more helpful & aware than the average.

I have posted elsewhere about the Showtime series "Couples Therapy". Mau appears to me to be a narcissist. (I am not qualified to judge.) Watching him was slightly triggering for me, but very educational and it may be to you too. It is also interesting to watch the therapist talk about her choices almost to overly sympathize with Mau, even though she was not snowed by him, to keep him on board with therapy. I think this is very common in couples therapy with a PD person, and very hurtful to the spouse. You may have to leave couples therapy if it is too harmful to you, or unproductive.

Finally, my BPDH did leave me room to talk in couples therapy, particularly if I started the session. Hopefully your husband will too, or the therapist will make him. If you say something normal in therapy, like that his behaviour made you angry or that you think his reaction in x situation hurt your child, and he then flies off the handle, the therapist will see it.

ETA: There is a long string, I think in the "Chosen relationships" section, about couples therapy. Most people here have not had positive experiences. I would not delay seeing a lawyer and getting advice.

[Kat54]

You never know with therapists if they can see if a person is a suspected PD.   Probably a good therapist will see it.

My ex and I went to 2 different therapists. The first one she knew right off the bat his game, and she thought he was probably a narcissist.  He ended up stopping the sessions, he said she was nuts and a weirdo, I continued. The second therapist he liked and she was quite enamored with him and his sparking personality. He couldn't stop complimenting her and acted like the funny nice guy that he is in front of most people. He couldn't snow the Phd psychologist but the therapist her thoughts were, maybe if you spend more quality time together without distractions. Take walks together...oh boy.