Teens and alienation

[Penny Lane]

Friends, having two teens with a uNPD bio mom is kind of kicking our butts!

She has embarked on another alienation journey. It's been awhile; the last time she really made a push to alienate the kids from their dads was several years ago. At the time she tried to make it a competition of who was more fun. And while she can win that in the short term, young kids want you to be engaged and present and she's just not capable of that. So that fizzled.

To be clear, we don't want a competition! We just want to be the best parents we can be. I want her to be the best parent SHE can be! (Although from the past it seems that even her best is not very good). But she wants to COMPETE and to WIN.

Now that the kids are teens/very close (15/12) the dynamics have totally changed. She lets them do anything they want with no oversight or rules. We have rules at our house, they can't do dangerous things, they have to come home to eat dinner with the family most nights, they have to have basic hygiene. Etc. BM loves to tell DH that the kids like her more. (Sidenote - OK? It's not a popularity contest. Our goal is not to be liked by teenagers, although we do loved them, it's to raise happy, healthy humans. She can win that contest, we will keep doing what's best for the kids.)

So now it seems like this alienation campaign is kind of working? At least the kids have brought up spending more time at her house. This is a troubling development - our opinion is that it would absolutely not be good for them to spend more time with no structure.

Sooooo, what do we do now?

This is what we are working on:
- Be more present - we've both been crazy busy at work, and the kids have ever increasing extracurriculars, so there was some disconnect during the school year. But summer is a good time to regroup on family time. Especially between DH and the kids. They need their dad!
- Make our house a good place for kids to be so they feel like they can bring their friends over - an all-important thing for teens.
- Limit contact with BM - DH had loosened boundaries as she had been doing ok for quite awhile. But it seems that she is just using what he says against him. So time to close it back up and only communicate when absolutely necessary.
- Create some structure this summer, that is good for the kids and their mental health.

Long term, are we losing them? They just come back parroting things that BM says. But unlike when they were younger, they seem to have no interest in hearing what we have to say. They're just MAD. And I think they're having a hard time - she does this when she's not doing well, you know?

[Stepping lightly]

Hi PL,

You are not losing them, although I 100% underastand that feeling.  I think you have the right approach, be as present with them as you can.  Honestly, I think they need the consistency more than anything, so if you guys were to really change something that would be very unsettling for them. 

Have they indicated "why" they want to be at BM's more?  The teenage years are chaotic in the best of circumstances, and with a PD involved it is just super tough. They are trying to sort out their own minds and independence I. the middle of a tough dynamic.  Is what they are parroting giving you insight into why they are angry?

DSD had a blowup the other night at DSS.  It was out of the blue.   We have found that DH is very successful in talking to her as she is about to get in bed...she tends to release all of her emotions and really have a heart to heart.  I'm sure you guys do something similar, but it might help in teasing apart what is driving their anger. 

 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Ugh. The permissive parent. Lazy AND the kids like them! So unfair. But really, that's just neglectful parenting. And the kids seeing the contrast with how things are at your house definitely notice the difference. Even if they don't articulate it and in their immaturity are attracted to the lack of rules and boundaries.

I think the hardest thing for you may be not seeking validation from the kids. They may push you specifically because you ARE safe! They have a lot to be angry about. They know BM isn't the place to take it. At best, BM is an escape to fantasyland. But you are here in reality and sometimes reality is tough. I agree with keeping consistency. They know. You are earning their trust day after day when you show up for them. Past behavior indicates the zeal for being the fun parent will fizzle, she'll get bored, the selfish will show. It's a tough lesson to learn about your mom, at any age. Be there, and take such good care of yourself and your marriage.

[xredshoesx]

i'm sorry this is becoming a thing now that they are older.  my best guess is that their actual ages are very close to the maturity level of their biological mother and therefore she's a peer/ friend with special powers (She can drive and buy them stuff) to them.

if the parenting agreement is set by court order ask them what they would tell the judge as a reason to make the orders change?  this could be tricky because they could hear 'we're going to ask the judge to let you spend more time in neverland' but you may get some insight as to what she is offering them.  chances are it's more fluff stuff that won't sway a judge to change a set of custody orders- like a bunch of 'because we want too' or 'she's more fun'. 

[Latchkey]

There's a lot of different things going on here and I think its good to step back a minute and be glad that you are able to provide a stable and structured place for the kids as they move from house to house.

Focus on what you can control and don't, no matter how tempting, blame it all on their mom. I am not saying you are, and I know you are not, but just try to widen the focus a bit.

I was a stepmom to 3 boys with a BPD biomom in my second marriage. There was always a blame placed on their biomom for their behavior rather than a focus on their own selves. This started at a young age with my NPD ex's family to the point where PD Biomom was blamed for ALL the kids bad behavior, learning delays, speech delays, everything that was problematic. When I entered the picture with my own kids I called bullshit on it because even if she was actively working against her and the kids best interest and affecting their behavior whether it was 5 minutes or 5 days, they needed to learn how to deal with her and also how to deal with all the other things in their lives. I also needed a way forward.

Sooooo, what do we do now?

This is what we are working on:
- Be more present - we've both been crazy busy at work, and the kids have ever increasing extracurriculars, so there was some disconnect during the school year. But summer is a good time to regroup on family time. Especially between DH and the kids. They need their dad!
- Make our house a good place for kids to be so they feel like they can bring their friends over - an all-important thing for teens.
- Limit contact with BM - DH had loosened boundaries as she had been doing ok for quite awhile. But it seems that she is just using what he says against him. So time to close it back up and only communicate when absolutely necessary.
- Create some structure this summer, that is good for the kids and their mental health.

Long term, are we losing them? They just come back parroting things that BM says. But unlike when they were younger, they seem to have no interest in hearing what we have to say. They're just MAD. And I think they're having a hard time - she does this when she's not doing well, you know?

These above are all GREAT things to be doing.

I don't think you are losing them. When they parrot and you want to reply just reply to them, as the person you know they are. Take them seriously and reply to them or ignore it if it is not actively harmful to you or to them or the family.

I wish I could say its all lovely for my former stepsons, I can't but they have all grown into young men with their own opinions and coping mechanisms and making their way in the world. They know they can still talk to me as someone who respects them even if I don't agree with some things they do.

i'm sorry this is becoming a thing now that they are older.  my best guess is that their actual ages are very close to the maturity level of their biological mother and therefore she's a peer/ friend with special powers (She can drive and buy them stuff) to them.

This is very true and also you will see this age related dynamic play out as bio mom engages with the kids.

Anything you can do to keep the dialog open and keep things stable is good. I would push back against more time there if she tries to make it official but occasionally having some leeway might give the kids some agency and make them feel more in control.

Sorry for the long post on this, but hope some of this is helpful!

[Penny Lane]

All very good points/ things to think about, thank you all!!

For context, DSS has been making a series of bad decisions lately. Not necessarily BM related, not alarming but like ... needs some redirection. Think along the lines of sneaking out of the house but not doing anything actually malicious. We handled it at our house the way we would either way, these aren't things that are BM issues.

The problems come in when he goes back to BM's house and there is no redirection, no consequences and in fact sometimes she explicitly tells him that it's OK to be doing these things. At her house there isn't an opportunity to sneak out, because she's not there anyway and never knows where he is. In some instances she and DSS actually colluded to keep DH from finding out about what DSS did.

So of course he loves that. He came to us and asked for more flexibility in the parenting schedule. At first it seemed reasonable. He cited a couple situations where he might want that flexibility. I said that I would support it if, say, he had an early morning event at the other house and wanted to stay overnight the night before. But over the course of the conversation it became clear that he just wanted to avoid our rules. And in fact the very next day, one of the exact situations he cited came up. But it would have put him at our house more, not his mom's house. And he did not want that flexibility that was allegedly so important. So what he says is that he wants to make his own schedule, but the reality is that he wants to avoid all rules and consequences. That's the "why" that Stepping Lightly, you asked about - as frustrating as it is.

But the real kicker was that it became clear that BM had orchestrated it - or at least played a role in it - when she came to DH with the exact same "examples" and wording about flexibility. Given the previously mentioned collusion, it seemed clear that she is making a real push to use this to her advantage. She has been having money problems recently and she has always wanted DH to pay more child support (even though he pays for everything from doctors to extracurriculars to clothes and even sometimes we send food to her house).

So it's like kind of the double whammy of trying to do the normal parenting stuff with a teenager who thinks he's far to wise and mature to need to listen to his parents, and then also dealing with BM encouraging him to flout our rules and doing a manipulation campaign.

Cordelia - that is such a good point about us being the safe parents. I always say that to other people on the board and I forget when it applies myself! In these tough tense times it's all that much more important to live up to being the safe stable house.

Anyway everyone has offered good advice and context. DSS and I used to have some good pre-bedtime talks. Maybe I can work those back into our summer schedule. To your point Latchkey, I think we need to solve this between us and the kids. Dealing with BM is pointless as it always is. The kids need tools to deal with their mom. Frankly they probably need us to say no to outrageous requests - that way they can tell her that they tried and make us the bad guy to her. Hopefully that protects them a little bit.

And redshoes -- YES! I have always said she acts like a high schooler. Now that we have a high schooler I would say, yes, he is acting exactly like her. And in some ways he's already more mature than her. So yeah he loves that an "adult" is validating his bad decisions and he can talk her into doing irresponsible things with him ... but deep down I think he knows that here is where he is safe.

[Latchkey]

I'm not sure what the circumstances of DSS 15 sneaking out of the house were, but I can't help but think that his mom would only be ok if she wanted to gain his favor. She's got to be concerned about his safety but her own anxiety over her financial situation and losing her control on him is probably putting her into this situation to try to win him over and win some extra support. The truth is though, at 15, he is about 3 years from not being a source of child support for her so it's a losing proposition and not a real solution to her financial issues.

Also, if she is not around and he is sneaking out, who is watching DSD 12? Its a rhetorical question, but still, concerning.

In the years leading up to and after the divorce from my PD exH2 I've learned that his PDexW the boys bio mom really does worry a lot about her sons but is so wrapped up in her own survival that unless she is in a stable place, she isn't really focused on any long term goal or plan so much as a quick fix. Like when she gave up her apartment when her middle son who was living with her for high school was going off to college thinking that he would not be coming back to stay and she would 'couch surf'... well guess what?
He decided, like alot of kids that graduated during the worst of the pandemic, not to go to college right away... and suddenly they were scrambling to find a studio apartment and he had to walk-in on her with various boyfriends.

So, one more thought is to have some kind of talk with your DH about safety and see if approaching it from that angle with her as a shared concern for their children might be at all helpful. Otherwise, keep on doing what you are planning and yes, the kids need the structure for sure and it will make a difference.