Hello everyone,
I haven't logged in for a while. Things have been relatively quiet, but with the Christmas holidays approaching this didn't last long.
So both I and BPD sis live abroad, in different countries (I live in Europe, and so do my parents; she lives in Asia). She hasn't returned home to see our parents for the past 4 years and I suspect this might have something to do with me and my partner visiting together: she likes having the monopoly, and she would be super awkward with him. She has never met him in person. This year we decided to go to my parents' for Christmas and come back here for New Year's, and booked the tickets early before they get really expensive. I didn't tell my parents because they are very controlling and intruding, and every time I tell them when we booked in advance, they always complain about not staying with them very long etc. Sis hadn't shared her plans, and I assumed she would not come, as she always says she has to work and she has no leave, boss is strict etc. So I was talking to my mum the other day and she asked whether we are going for Xmas, I said yes, she asked if we booked tickets, I said not yet (lying) and then she said your sister booked to come, she will arrive on the 27. This is the date we booked to leave! I realized that if I keep the pretense that we hadn't booked tickets, and then I tell them we booked to leave on the 27 they will think I did it on purpose, so I came clean and said 'listen, to tell you the truth we have booked the tickets but I did not want to tell you because you always get upset. It so happens that we booked to leave on the 27 but I am telling you now so that you don't get ideas that this was done on purpose to avoid my sister.' They were furious of course. They said why didn't you talk to your sis before booking? I said why didn't she talk to me before booking? They said well she is always available, you are the one that avoids her, and you know her schedule is very tight and this was the only date she could manage. I said, well, I am sorry, it is just very bad timing, and they said you should change your tickets to stay at least one more day to see her. I said no, this is going to cost a lot of money and cause trouble, and they got even more furious saying they will give me the money for the tickets and this is ridiculous, I haven't seen her in 4 years, and so on, so forth. They said why can't you stay for New Year's, I said we can't. We ended the conversation with me saying "I will think about this and see what we can do" without making any promises.
I wouldn't mind seeing my sister; it's not like I would take measures to actively avoid her, but I am not very sad either that it worked this way. I also don't want to twist myself in a knot, as I always do to suit her schedule. To me, the fact that noone thought to check beforehand about the dates is pretty indicative of our relationship, which will not be fixed by me prolonging my stay. This is just for the parents' sake, so as to play the happy family. I don't want to do that.
My partner suggested we play along and last minute we find an excuse and cancel the trip. I wasn't very keen to go anyway, but I feel bad for my parents whose health has not been great recently. I am also supposed to go there this Saturday and stay for 2 weeks, because my mum is having a hip replacement surgery. I now dread the trip because of this. I am not sure what to do. Part of me wants to stick to my guns and keep to the original plan. Another part is just so mentally exhausted that does not want to deal with any of it, and want to stay home (I mean for Xmas, I will have to go for the surgery). It is tricky.
That you're mentally exhausted by it two months ahead of time is telling. Contrary to your parents' thoughts, you don't have to explain your relationship with your sister or to explain and justify your travel plans. I'm fairly sure there's time for all that, not even considering the two weeks you'll spend following mom's surgery.
However controlling and intruding they may be, you CAN decline to discuss it for the umpteenth time. Let them rant while you make noncommittal totally gray rock responses as needed. You can listen them off their ledge and keep on keeping on. You can even tell them, look enough is enough with this. She and I didn't even consider checking with each other on travel dates, same as every other year. You can also "THIS. this right here is why I hadn't said anything, all the complaints and whys and you shoulds. Now I wish I hadn't said anything at all." What are they going to do, get mad because you spoke the truth? Well.
Thing is, if she hasn't seen them in four years either, there's a reason: She chose not to. At the end of the day you're still not obligated to change your plans because she decided this year she's coming. Maybe consider stating the obvious: That horse is dead and them continuing this way isn't making a Christmas visit any more appealing.
This is me, but the second they started playing the blame game and complaining about what dates you will/won't be there, I would have cancelled the trip. They are trying to make you out to be the bad guy because you are *checks notes* spending a lot of time, energy, and money to visit them???? And now everything must be rearranged to suit their and your sister's preferences? And not because it will actually mean anything to them but because of how it will look?
It took me far too long to prioritize my own wants (not to mention my health and sanity) around the holidays. To spend time doing what I want with who I want and to stop catering to endlessly selfish family members... who never appreciate the efforts I made to keep them appeased in the first place, by the way.
Ask yourself this: if you rearrange everything so that everyone is "happy" (except for you and your partner, ironically), do you think they'll be grateful? Do you think they'll express one iota of thanks? Or are they going to find something you've done wrong, some way you've disappointed them? Now ask yourself why you are expending so much effort to please people who go out of their way to find fault.
:yeahthat: You always have the option of quietly cancelling flights and refusing to say anything further, other than "I'm sorry but we'll be unable to make it for Christmas this year after all." No further discussion, and cut off the complaints with "well look at the time. I have an appointment so we'll have to talk some other time." Lather rinse repeat - while you and partner plan a nice getaway together for the holidays. After two weeks of hearing it, you may see this as a nice soft place for everyone to land.
:yeahthat: :yeahthat:
You've been given a preview of coming... well, "attractions" is exactly the opposite of what's here. Believe that.
As for the two week nursing visit... whoooo boy. I don't envy you that. "DH and I will let you know about Christmas after I'm home again. I am here with you right now, taking care of you after surgery," on broken record is the only way I can think of managing that. There is the possibility of going on good behavior in order to manipulate you, of course. Since you are, you know, playing the role of good daughter. But that seems likely to be completely erased by the Christmas drama.
Lol at Cat *checking notes*. What a succinct way of expressing that you are sticking with reality, here. There's no plausible way that you are a bad daughter here. Except in PD land where twisted feelings are facts, of course. If you felt you couldn't be up front about your plans, now you know why. Of course you already did.
"They said well she is always available, you are the one that avoids her, and you know her schedule is very tight and this was the only date she could manage."
She is always available but her schedule is very tight? You avoid her by... not flying to Asia? Not assuming she would be there at Christmas despite past behavior? This smells like word salad, throwing whatever they can think of to say to press those guilt and shame buttons to gain your compliance. Her time is valuable but you should just stay another week? That's crap, and I'm angry for you.
Thank you so much for your responses. They help me greatly achieve some clarity about the situation.
There hasn't been any more discussion on the subject so far. Sis sent me a message on the day she booked the tickets but did not mention booking / planning to book the tickets. She knew that we had done some work on our bathroom so she asked me about that and I sent her some pics. Then the ticket conversation with my parents took place, and I am certain they talked to her after that, because they talk on skype every single day for hours. So she is aware that we have booked our tickets and we won't see her, but she didn't send me anything and she didn't comment on the pictures I sent her either (well, this is not surprising since she does not care a bit about my life, unless it gives her grounds for malicious comments). I was considering whether I should write to her and say 'mum told me you arrive when we leave, it's a shame we won't coincide but we booked our tickets a while ago' but I really don't want to do that. Is this childish? I am thinking she did not acknowledge the situation so why should I?
I know that the topic will come up many times in my upcoming visit there, and I will be forced to talk to her while I am there because she is skyping them all the time, and it is hard to always have an excuse to leave. I can already imagine it and it will be awful. But I have decided to stand up for myself and not allow them to bully me. I am worried that if I start speaking my truth, a lot will come out and I don't want to upset my mum during a difficult time for her. But equally, I can't just sit back and let them accuse me of all sorts of things. It is a difficult balance to achieve.
I will wait until Christmas to see how I feel about going then. I know that to a sane, normal person it doesn't sound like it is a big deal to say 'sorry we can't come because our plans have changed' but this will cause a complete meltdown in my family. Where I come from families are culturally very important, and I am already the 'black sheep' for being different about that. I honestly cannot imagine myself saying 'sorry, we can't come' because it won't just be accepted but will be followed by millions of questions and the drama will be unbearable. If we don't go, I need to find a good excuse. I could always say that we won't come because it will be unpleasant but that means open war. Not sure if I am ready for that.
Update: sis now messaged me again, after I had sent her photos of the bathroom on Sunday. She is asking 'what was the old bathroom like?' with no comment on the pics or the holidays. Not sure how to reply...
Quote from: walking on broken glass on October 25, 2023, 05:24:06 AMI was considering whether I should write to her and say 'mum told me you arrive when we leave, it's a shame we won't coincide but we booked our tickets a while ago' but I really don't want to do that. Is this childish? I am thinking she did not acknowledge the situation so why should I?
Take a look at the Toolbox section and read up on "JADE" if you're not already familiar with it: https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain
I wouldn't discuss it with your sister for the reasons outline in the JADE guide, but there's another reason, too. Subtext.
Quote"one of the more valuable things I've learned in life as a survivor of a mentally unstable parent is that it is likely that no one has thought through it as much as you have.
no, your friend probably has not noticed they cut you off four times in this conversation.
no, your brother didn't realize his music was that loud while you were studying.
no, your bff or S.O. doesn't remember that you're on a tight deadline right now.
no, no one else is paying attention to the four power dynamics at play in your friend group right now.
a habit of abused kids, especially kids with unstable parents, is the tendency to notice every little detail.
We magnify small nuances into major things, largely because small nuances quickly became breaking points for parents. Managing moods, reading the room, perceiving danger in the order of words, the shift of body weight....it's all a natural outgrowth of trying to manage unstable parents from a young age.
Here's the thing: most people don't do that.
I'm not saying everyone else is oblivious, I'm saying the over analysis of minor nuances is a habit of abuse.
I have a rule: I do not respond to subtext.
This includes guilt tripping, silent treatments, passive aggressive behavior, etc. I see it. I notice it. I even sometimes have to analyze it and take a deep breath and CHOOSE not to respond. Because whether it's really there or just me over-reading things that actually don't mean anything, the habit of lending credence to the part of me that sees danger in the wrong shift of body weight...that's toxic for me. And dangerous to my relationships.
The best thing I ever did for myself and my relationships was insist upon frank communication and a categorical denial of subtext.
For some people this is a moral stance.
For survivors of mentally unstable parents this is a requirement of recovery."
(Source: https://www.tumblr.com/i-thesadtruth/644699152400498688/geekdawson-one-of-the-more-valuable-things-ive)
If your sister wants to discuss the trip or your relationship, then she needs to use her words. Don't do the dirty work for her and start offering up excuses when she hasn't bothered to bring it up herself. And if she does bring it up, YOU get to decide if you even want to talk about it.
QuoteI know that to a sane, normal person it doesn't sound like it is a big deal to say 'sorry we can't come because our plans have changed' but this will cause a complete meltdown in my family.
I'm not sane or normal, thanks to my FOO, and I know the panic-inducing feeling of even
imagining having to say "no." The first time someone here told me, "You don't have to let your PD family member stay in your home or even visit at all..." this was me: :aaauuugh: WTF were they even talking about? Of COURSE I have to let them visit and of COURSE I have to let them stay in my house! But a funny thing happened after I let the idea sink in for a while. "Maybe I
can say no." You may not be ready now. This may be too big a step too quickly. That's OK. But give it a chance to simmer in the back of your mind, and the next time this comes up, you might discover that it seems a little less daunting.
And if and when you get to that point, one of the things you have to embrace is that their response and their behavior is on them. You are still talking like you can manage their behavior by never rocking the boat. This is one of the the biggest PD traps and what I was trying to highlight when I pointed out that you are being incredibly generous with your time and they are
still complaining and causing drama. They've designed a hamster wheel of "approval seeking." Nothing you do is ever enough. You try harder to please, only to find that it's still not enough. Maybe if you _______, they'd finally be happy. Still no. Rinse and repeat.
They aren't going to stop the wheel. It's jump or keep running.
Cat, your message brought tears to my eyes. You are so spot on in everything you say. Thank you so much.
It's funny, when I think I have made big strides in dealing with family, I realize there is still so much in me that leaves me trapped and confused. I keep trying to remind myself that they can't make me do anything and that I am free. I wish I were truly free though.
:yeahthat:
And also ...
:yeahthat:
There is a difference between a close-knit, even "clannish," family, and a dysfunctional family. Cultural norms may be different. Expectations may be different. But dysfunction is dysfunction no matter where you live in the world.
"Whether or not we celebrate Christmas on December 25 or January 6" is a cultural difference.
"Whether senior citizens plan to retire to a community somewhere sunny and warm or dedicate their retirement to their grandchildren's care" is a cultural difference.
"Whether children move out of their parents' house at 18-21 or 29-30" is a cultural difference.
Believe me, as an American in Europe, a lot of those differences seem ripe for dysfunction to me! But my own "normal," to my fellow country people, seems weird, if not heartless.
But this silent code of manipulation, where up is down and black is white, and your desperate, exhausting attempts to manipulate them back into some kind of civility, or at least predictability, is dysfunction. Because you are being manipulative: making secret plans, sending strategic texts, passive aggressively communicating. It's from a very understandable place, but you are in the dysfunction, too.
I am someone who used to have actual panic attacks when I even thought about not arriving bright and on time, with presents perfectly press-wrapped and bows un-crinkled, to polish silver and set my mother's Christmas table. And, when that fantasy crumbled, fell into depressions when thinking that I wouldn't have a warm, comfy, hostess with the mostess holiday with my in-laws.
And it never, ever, ever worked. Something always went horribly south, because when you're dealing with disordered people, they are hell bent on grabbing the wheel and hurling you and your little plated hors d'oeuvre right off the highway and over the rail. You can hang onto the wheel until your knuckles are white, but you cannot beat them at their own game. They will not sit and play nice.
You say you're not ready for all out war, but you're living in a minefield. You know those big outfits the soldiers in charge of defusing mines wear? With the big helmet and puffy bulletproof sleeves and pants? You need to get yourself one of those. Or even better, a witch costume
A Glenda the Good costume, with sparkly tulle and tiara and magic wand. Good news! They're in invisible, free, and you already have one in your closet! Try this one on for size:
1. Your house is your house. No one lives there but you. No one has to know what it looks like inside or what happens there. Stop offering up your sacred space to your parents and sister. No pictures. No texts. No updates. Not for small talk. Not as an olive branch. Not in answer to seemingly polite questions. Period.
2. You and dh are a team. Where you go, he goes. He's your reality tester. No meals, no visits, and certainly no overnight stays of any kind without dh. When he says, "this isn't working," you two leave. No room for two? You stay in a hotel. Dh has to work? Sorry, we can't make it after all. If you can't do it for you, do it for him. Because he's paying the price for your inability to say no to your parents. These are the holiday memories you're making for him, for the two of you.
3. Practice your no. You don't have to ring up old Mom and say, "hey guess what, lady? No!" But there are a million little no's you can practice along the way. No, I don't want anything to eat, I'm fine. No, I'm just going to go to my room and read a book. No, I haven't heard from Sister. No, that's not what the doctor said.
It looks lovely on you!
Quote from: walking on broken glass on October 26, 2023, 03:28:47 AMCat, your message brought tears to my eyes. You are so spot on in everything you say. Thank you so much.
It's funny, when I think I have made big strides in dealing with family, I realize there is still so much in me that leaves me trapped and confused. I keep trying to remind myself that they can't make me do anything and that I am free. I wish I were truly free though.
No thanks necessary. And I'd be much better off if I was half as good at taking my own advice as I am at giving it, lol. I have gotten better at saying no, but I will stress about it for days (or weeks) before and after. I try to be gentle and patient with myself, because after all, I am trying to unlearn decades of conditioning. Baby steps are better than nothing. Mistakes aren't the end of the world. Perfection is an illusion.
Have you read Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents? Because the family dynamic here sounds like more than just your sister.
I did read the book a while ago, when I was first educating myself about the situation. You are absolutely right Cat that it is not just my sis - parents have created the dynamic and enabled sis all those years. They have their own issues too.
I have been playing out in my head various dialogues and all the responses I could give so as to be prepared, not JADE and not lose my temper. It is very stressful and exhausting. They talk to sis every single day which means, being in the same flat, I will have to find excuses to avoid her every single day. I haven't been alone with them in their flat for many years and the memories of how it was are coming back to haunt me. They used to call sis on Skype when we were all having lunch, and she would be there on camera throughout. It made me want to scream. I know that it is different now because I am different, I know I have choices and they can't force me do stuff that I don't want to do. Still it's hard to block the thoughts 'what if x happens? How do I react?'
I wish I didn't have to go. But two weeks. I can survive.
Thanks, Leonor!
The funny thing is that my partner comes from an abusive family and he is even more averse to confrontation and prone to pleasing than I am! When the ticket situation unfolded he wanted to change the tickets for us to stay longer. It is convenient that he doesn't speak my parents' language so they can't really communicate with him beyond basic stuff, so when we are together I can avoid difficult conversations. He is my shield!
Quote from: walking on broken glass on October 27, 2023, 02:54:50 AMThey talk to sis every single day which means, being in the same flat, I will have to find excuses to avoid her every single day. I haven't been alone with them in their flat for many years and the memories of how it was are coming back to haunt me.
Have you considered not staying with them? I know this might be another "I could never!" scenario, but I'm throwing it out there so it will be ready for next time or the time after, if not this time.
I think 90% of the battle of establishing good boundaries is recognizing how many of the things we
think we can't ask for because they are too rude/harsh/will offend are actually totally reasonable and fair. There is nothing unreasonable or unfair about not wanting to stay in your parents' home.
If your parents start in on you about Christmas I would say the following "If you aren't happy with the plans we have in place we will just cancel the entire trip. Would you prefer that? These are your only two choices"
It won't be possible not to stay with them this time because I am going there to help my mum after her hip replacement surgery and I will need to be around. But if we do go for Christmas we won't stay with them for sure!
Quote from: lkdrymom on October 27, 2023, 04:01:58 PMIf your parents start in on you about Christmas I would say the following "If you aren't happy with the plans we have in place we will just cancel the entire trip. Would you prefer that? These are your only two choices"
:yeahthat: :like:
I should practise saying this!
Ok, deep breath, close eyes, clutch pearls ...
It is possible to stay elsewhere.
You do not need to be there.
Now, you may not be willing or ready to stay elsewhere.
That's ok.
But the possibility exists.
"I could stay in a hotel. I could arrange for in-home help. I could speak to a temporary care facility. I could simply say I wish you well, I'll visit for a day to see you. I'll call in every few days to see how things are going."
All of those things, and more, are possible.
That gives you freedom to choose: "I could stay in a hotel, but I am not willing to endure the feelings of guilt. I could arrange for a temporary rehab, but I am not willing to experience the anxiety over financial ramifications. I could say I'll just call instead of visit, but I'm not willing to relinquish my role as the Good Daughter."
Nothing, on the outside, has to change. It's an internal shift. It's empowering. You can sleep on a rug in the floor next to her bed, but if you know that you do have options, and you choose this one, for whatever the reason- and they are all good enough, valid reasons!- what a gift to give yourself.
You are right, Leonor! I think being actually in the same flat makes me think of the other options I could have taken. I guess this is something to consider for the future.
Dad brought up the tickets the first night I arrived. I said we are bir changing them. He asked why, what do you have to do, and I said we have made our plans. We are not changing them. And I said my sis hasn't said nothing to me about her plans so that's all coming from you. She booked her tickets, I booked my tickets, nothing more to discuss here. He said she couldn't tell you about her tickets because you are hard to find. I said oh really because she was actually messaging me on WhatsApp about unrelated stuff the day she booked. And the day after. No response.
I talked to sis today too. She was her usual infuriating self. She said 'well I am not too bothered I won't see you because the flat is small and I want my peace and quiet. It would be nice if you stayed for an extra day but after that it would be too much'. I said great then. And then she said 'I told mum though that she should ask you when you plan to visit because this is their place and you can't be treating it like a hotel'. I completely ignored that one. She also pretended I didn't come here to help mum but to 'get some good weather'. Classic
She asked if we would talk tomorrow and I said to her that signal is bad in the hospital and that I have no WiFi. I will let my dad deal with her s***t from home.
Now I just have to avoid her and survive for the next 10 days. And not let dad manipulate and control me. Sigh
Quote from: walking on broken glass on October 29, 2023, 09:18:46 AMAnd then she said 'I told mum though that she should ask you when you plan to visit because this is their place and you can't be treating it like a hotel'.
Oh lord. Insert the hardest of eyerolls here. If anyone is treating it like it a hotel, it's her, with dictating who she's willing to share a space with and for how long. The nerve.
Sending you all the strength and gray rock to get through this.
Mum went in for surgery today and everything went fine. I was with her in the hospital room and sister called to talk to her. My mum managed to talk for two minutes, them sis talked to me and said 'so everything went well? Nothing went wrong? No problems at all?' Way to go positive :roll:
Then she asked when I'd be home so that we talk and I said I don't know, I'll stay a bit longer, we'll talk at some point and hung up.
I will have to keep doing that every day :-\
So things have evolved in unexpected ways the past few days. I tested positive for COVID and had to change plans and hurry back home to protect my mum and dad. I am very stressed that I might have passed it on to them already and very sad I had to leave without being able to offer as much help as I wanted. And of course unwell because of COVID. My sister has been trying to talk to me ever since she found out and I have refused to talk to her, which made her even more persistent. This morning she messaged me again trying to initiate a conversation. I am going to stick to my guns and avoid her. She's been her usual awful self, talking to my mum non stop after coming back home from surgery, not letting her rest one bit. Mum has never put any boundaries whatsoever and their relationship is very codependent. They expect me to be the same, just jump when sis calls but this is not happening. I am so fed up with her
God forbid she let you or your mother have some time to recuperate. Sheesh.
No such luck! My mum has now tested positive for COVID and she is not feeling great. My dad is isolating and hoping he escaped. My mum's sister went there to help. Meanwhile my sister keeps messaging me and calling me, even though I said I am tired and want to rest. 'I just want to see if you are ok'. Arrrgh
I am so sorry that you and your mother are sick with COVID. I hope you feel better soon!
It seems like your mom has other resources, after all.
Mute your phone!
I talked to my dad yesterday and he brought up my sister, and how stressed she is about the whole situation and that she wanted to talk to me and did I talk to her? I said no and he said something sarcastic about my attitude to the family. I said really? This is unfair, to say the least, after what I just did for the family. He said I was just referring to one member of the family, your sister. Then we had a long talk about my sis. I told him he is not allowed to tell me what my relationship with my sis should be, that they have been blind to the problems and they never saw or tried to understand my perspective; that I don't expect them to understand or agree, just to accept the situation and stop pestering me about it. I said I have tried long and hard to have a relationship with my sister but the effort was only on my side, and it has been detrimental to my mental health, so the best I can do is keep my distance. He tried to get me to talk about past incidents and 'explain' the problems but I refused to go down this rabbit hole, and said if you wanted to see the problem you would have seen it all these years. It is not a matter of 'explaining'. The irony is that while he was trying to get me to be in more regular contact with my sis, at the same time he was admitting he doesn't want to talk to her very often and that she has been nasty to him many times. I said because you put up with this it doesn't mean I have to; and that I am not a therapist and if he is troubled by this he should talk to a therapist, and the same goes for my sister.
It felt good to return a load that they have been burdening me with for years and say it's not mine. I did warn him that if he keeps doing this my relationship with them will be affected, so if he comes back to it I can refuse to talk and hang up.
P.S. Definitely muting my sister. She is all over me using her 'concern' for me as a pretext to pester me. She even got my mum to call me while on Skype with her, so that I talk to her through mum.
Terse text suggestion: I'm not well, sister, as I mentioned before. I appreciate your concern but I'm trying to rest and get through as best I can. I'll talk to you some other time. (Then turn off notifiers if not outright block her phone.)
My dad now also tested positive. My sister texted me to tell me and of course try to lure me into a conversation. I ignored her and just called my dad. I hope he will be ok
People get the covid at a wide variety of levels, some relatively minor while others can be more severe - it's a complete crap shoot who has what experience, so you deal with whatever you have as it appears. Being stressed is likely to make your own harder to deal with, less likely to get the rest and strength you need to deal with symptoms and recuperate.
Try and keep telling yourself: You didn't cause this. You can't control it. You can't change it. You can only change yourself and your responses to it. You don't *want* or need to talk to her every day, that hasn't changed for you. For that matter, sounds like same goes for the parents. You grew up, left home and built your own life - that's what adults do. It doesn't mean you have to cut everyone else off, but neither does your life revolve around them and their stuff. She *chooses* to engage mom and dad multiple times every day. Grand, she can do that.
Quote from: walking on broken glass on November 06, 2023, 03:52:49 AMThe irony is that while he was trying to get me to be in more regular contact with my sis, at the same time he was admitting he doesn't want to talk to her very often and that she has been nasty to him many times.
Ahhh, there it is. He wants a break from her nonsense and the only solution he can come up with is pawning her off onto someone else for a while.
You get a standing ovation from me. You handled that really well, especially considering you're sick and probably feeling pretty awful!
Thanks so much, Cat, and everyone!
Moglow, I followed your advice today. Sis texted me using her concern about my dad's and my health as a pretext, and I replied saying that last night dad was ok, I am better but still ill and I can't talk because I need peace and quiet. She then replied again completely disregarding what I had just said: 'aunt seems to have everything under control. Look at the bright side: they won't worry about COVID over Christmas'. I ignored the message. If she messages again tomorrow, I will block her.
Her "bright side" comment is baffling to me - we're SICK, leave me the hell alone!! And yes, block her if need be. When you get the inevitable complaints, you told her you were sick and needed rest and recuperation and she wouldn't leave you alone. Not sure how much clearer you can be here.
I'm curious, how often was she contacting you before all this Christmas visit talk? Hoping you can fall back off her radar sooner rather than later!
We would have a video call on holidays and special occasions, like birthdays, and she would message (but no call) maybe once a month or even less frequently. She is just using the family situation as an excuse to pester me and violate those boundaries! Her response shows me that she doesn't really listen to what I say. I fear she will be messaging again. I spoke to my mum just now and she said 'your sister was looking for you but she said you couldn't talk' and I said yes, that's right and shut down the conversation.
My dad is unfortunately still struggling with covid and is terrified that he is going to die. He keeps saying to my mum that he is going to die, but my mum has her own health to worry about and cannot support him in this phase. She is the one that needs more support! I talk to my mum every day and I suggested that they talk to the doctor about my dad's physical health as well as a psychiatrist about his mental health. I can't do much else. Of course, my sister thrives in all this. I ignored her last messages but today she messaged AGAIN trying to engage me in a conversation about dad. I will ignore that too but she doesn't seem to get the message. I don't want to engage in direct conflict with her, so I alternate between no response/thumbs up/very short responses, and hoping she will leave me alone. I realize that she is also worried but she has to deal with those feelings on her own. I can't provide a stage for her performance.
More updates: dad will have to go into hospital because he needs to take antibiotics intravenously. He had to that before and he got better after. But he is scared and keeps saying he won't come out alive. He messaged me to ask me to go back to be with my mum because she will be on her own. (He also said not to tell my mum because she would be mad if she knew what he said). I don't want to do that. I barely just recovered from the last trip and COVID, and I have tons of work to do. My mum is mobile and my aunt and uncle are just downstairs. My aunt said she can stay with my mum if she wants to, but at any rate she is cooking and taking care of the practicalities. My mum's sister also offered to help. I understand that they would feel better if I went, but I can't face it at this point. If things change, I will consider it. I am trying not to feel guilty but my dad is very good at making me feel guilty. Pfff
An old friend used to say, a hoover doesn't work if we don't plug it in. I see guilt trips a lot the same way - we have to buy into it for it to go anywhere. Being at somewhat of a remove helps - you had to plan ahead to be there for her surgery then you got sick too. Reality is right now is not a great time for you to try and be gone again. Plus mom has help right there now, and cough cough you're still not 100% yourself. Which I'd bet you're not so no little white lies needed.
I would imagine he won't listen so why try to explain. You understand his concerns and you still can't be there right now.
"I don't want to do that."
You can just stop right there. You have excellent reasons why you don't want to do that, and your father really does not need you. Their needs are being met. You need to take care of your own stuff. Your life is more important. There is no reason in the world for you to feel guilty or for you to continue to sacrifice your own life and peace so they can feel a little better about their stuff for a tiny little while. The end.
And that "I feel like I'm going to die," guilt trip routine ending with, "But don't tell your mother I said anything"? Absolutely classic. Neither of them are willing to face their own feelings themselves, are they? It seems like your whole immediate family piles the burden on you. :fallingbricks: Mom, dad, and sister. You are starting to no longer take it on. Good for you, and keep going!
Thank you both so much. You help me put things into perspective. I know this is the reality but it is easy to forget with all the drama and pressure.
Sister just sent me another message, completely out of tune with what has been going on. She said "my company is having a party on a cruise ship this Sunday, I hope the food will be nice". For some reason this pushed me over the edge and I blocked her. It wasn't rude or anything, but I can't put up with her games and warped sense of reality at this point.
Apologies for the repeated posts. I have a question. A friend asked me whether I have ever talked to my sister about the things that bother me, so that I make my case clear and so that she knows where I stand. The truth is I have never had a 'this is what I think' conversation with her: in the past we had arguments (well, she picked arguments with me and I defended myself), she did not apologize, and then we were back in touch. I gradually started putting distance and boundaries in place, which were eventually solidified in very low contact. Do you think I should have had it out with her? I can't even imagine how this would work but my friend's suggestion made me feel a bit guilty, as if I would appear unreasonable to block her without an explanation.
People who don't have intimate experience with PDs rarely understand what it's truly like to deal with them. The depths of their entitlement, the denial, the lack of rationality. They believe that all of the standard advice about clear communication and healthy boundaries will work the way it would with any old person. We know better.
I mean, just the fact that you phrased it "had it out with her" speaks volumes. Not "discussed our relationship like rational adults" or "tried to come to a place of mutual understanding." And to be clear, I think I've used that exact phrasing myself about my mother, so I know why you chose those words.
I have never had any such conversation with my mother and doubt I ever will. I know how it would go: BADLY. Unless, that is, I were to throw myself at her feet and beg forgiveness for being such a terrible daughter. Any suggestion that we share responsibility in our lack of closeness would be interpreted by my mother as an attack. I truly believe she is incapable of finding fault in herself, and therefore incapable of taking responsibility. She has never apologized, ever. Absolutely nothing productive would come from "having it out with her," other than perhaps a sense of accomplishment for having spoken my piece.
My guess is you could compile a very long list of the times you set a simple boundary and your sister reacted poorly or ignored it. It's not hard to extrapolate from there what her reaction might be if you said, "I need rest and would appreciate if you didn't contact me for a while." I doubt it would be simply complying with your request, which is what a non-PD would do.
It is true, this advice applies to people who are not PDs. I was thinking that it would actually be like trying to reason with a bully: only harm can come of this. In the thousands of episodes I had with my sister, not once did she say she was wrong or apologize. She never assumed any kind of responsibility for the relationship. And she never asked me why I don't want to have a relationship with her either. She only pushes and runs over me like a bulldozer. So, yes, you are right. There is nothing productive in a conversation. It's not a matter of explaining. Most days all one can do is damage control.
My dad is still in hospital and my mum manages ok at home on her own. She has actually admitted to me that she can sleep better now that my dad is not there and she doesn't have to worry about looking after him. Dad has improved a bit but still complains that he doesn't feel 100% and cannot breathe. The doctor says that unfortunately he will have to live with the breathing problems, as they will never go away. It was already like that for my dad but it might have got a bit worse and he has no patience, nor the will to fight it. I called him yesterday and he was complaining that this is not a life worth living, and then he was playing the blame game. He said that my mum shouldn't have had her surgery in the middle of winter because if she had it at spring this wouldn't have happened. Then he was asking me about the people sitting next to me on the plane and whether they were wearing a mask (implying of course that I brought covid with me from the flight). He was going on about how I tried to do a good thing by going over there to help them but look how it ended! And he escaped covid for four years only to get it now. He was also trying to guilt trip me by saying how sorry he feels about my mum who is on her own and is not well. I assured him that she is doing fine but he dismissed this and said "I know she is not well". The best part: I had given him a quick call on Saturday when I was out for a work dinner to see how he was doing and he said "you had too much makeup on. You shouldn't put so much make up. What does your partner say about that?"
I love him and I feel sorry for him but I don't want to be on the receiving end of such spiralling. It is interesting that he tries to put the blame for what happened on anyone but himself, when I was constantly telling him to put his mask on and he refused to do so. Not that someone is to blame for this situation - sometimes you have to accept that sh*t happens and it can't be helped - but it is interesting that he examines the behaviour of everyone but himself. I think I won't be calling frequently even though my mum says he complains if I don't call and he also asks her whether I call her every day. Talk about need for control...
Wow, that's quite the three-ring circus they've got going on.
I'm just going to echo what others have said, nons have no clue what we deal with and your friend is making all sorts of assumptions about how things work in situations she's familiar with. You're down the PD rabbit-hole where the one consistent feature is 'no good deed goes unpunished.'
I think if you reflect on your communications with your sister and ask yourself, when has she shown an interest in you, offered empathy, remembered something that is important, etc etc, that list will be low, unless there's something in it for her.
My therapist taught me to deal with mother's FOO by saying 'Always test the water first - try the small thing with them to see how they react before you drop the big thing on them.'
It's pretty standard for most children in PD families to grow up so brainwashed by the FOG that they have no idea it's not normal or healthy, and everyone ends up completely pushed out of shape by having to accommodate all the crazy.
What works to navigate disordered parents when you are a child will inevitably end up being an unhealthy set of responses and behaviours that you carry into your adult life. You've got your stuff, your sister has hers, & it sounds like she's so heavily enmeshed with them that she's probably unlikely to see the behaviour clearly.
It's rotten luck that you all got covid but I do think it gives you a potential 'out' for avoiding Xmas. There are so many other horrible bugs that can travel around on planes that it just might not be a good idea to risk everyone getting another infection while you are all still recovering from Covid.
Seriously.
Both of DH's parents died in the last couple of years and we've both been feeling a lot of regret about just how much we allowed them to dominate our lives with their drama...and however much we gave into them, it was always because of the threat that if they didn't get what they wanted, they'd do something far worse.
Whatever you decide about Xmas, I think it's worth finding a T who understands PD behaviour and working on some goals about how to exctricate yourself from being lured back in to the drama.
It takes so much hard work.
When I think what DH and I could have been doing if there hadn't been so much drama...I like what Mo said about how a hoover doesn't work unless you plug it in.
Thank you, sandpiper :)
It does take a lot of work. I first started getting a realization that there is something wrong with my family when I went abroad to study. Since then it's been 15 years, and I still find myself making new realizations and discoveries. It never ends.
QuoteWhat works to navigate disordered parents when you are a child will inevitably end up being an unhealthy set of responses and behaviours that you carry into your adult life.
This is so so true. Thank god for therapy! I only meet with my therapist once a month now but it helps knowing she is there.
QuoteMy therapist taught me to deal with mother's FOO by saying 'Always test the water first - try the small thing with them to see how they react before you drop the big thing on them.'
This also describes my experience with my FOO. Anything I have to share, I do it gradually and tentatively, and only share things I know will come to light eventually. For instance, I am starting a new job in July and will have to move to another country temporarily. I have known this for a year now but have not said anything to them. I can't face the questions and the anxiety.
We have decided to go there for Christmas and stay in an AirBnB. I am hoping it will be nice to walk around the city and meet up with friends. If parents cause trouble, I am ready to put boundaries in place. It will be a good test to determine future visits.
This is such great advice on this thread. & Right there with you when it comes to stressing about the holidays. Just wanted to add something I do that's a little helpful for me, which is just repeating a short mantra like "boundaries are good, boundaries are healthy" to myself when feeling overwhelmed or guilty about setting them. These PD's and their enablers really make us feel like healthy/normal things are the most terrible things in the world.
I spoke to my parents yesterday. Our visit is imminent and I am already getting stressed. But I try to focus on the nice things we can do, the friends I want to see and the fact we will be staying on our own. Still, I would have much preferred to stay here.
My mum is slowly recovering from her hip replacement surgery and my dad is out of the hospital but now needs his oxygen supply pretty much all the time. He has taken this really badly. On the one hand, I feel sorry for him and I realize it's not easy. On the other hand, he does not make the slightest effort to help himself. He just feels sorry for himself and keeps saying that he is going to die or that he should have died etc. When we spoke he said he is going to talk to the doctor about a portable oxygen tank but he is not sure he should get because he will die soon anyway. Then he said that he has been thinking about his life, all the struggles he had to face and how it all amounted to this, to the two of them being alone in a flat. And that when my mum was unwell they were helpless.
This is all unbelievably annoying and triggering for me. He should be happy it is the two of them - other people have no-one - and you don't have children so that they are glued to you when you get older. Plus, when my mum was in surgery I did go there to help, and when I left there was a network of relatives that helped them too. And they don't have any financial difficulties so they could even pay for professional help, if needed. His perspective is so skewed.
I always thought my dad had narcissistic tendencies but the older he gets I wonder whether himself is undiagnosed NPD.
I hadn't called them for a few days and he sent me messages with sad emojis ('poor me!') - not even words - to get me to call, secret from my mum of course. I told him yesterday to speak to a mental health professional to help him with intrusive thoughts but of course there is no way he will speak to 'a stranger'. I then tried to change the subject and distract him, which worked, and I cut the conversation short.
This all doesn't make the prospect of visiting heartwarming. I feel sorry for them, especially my mum who is subjected to all this, but I can't help, at least not the way he wants me to. There is a tough conversation I will need to have with them at some point that has to do with property and inheritance: they want to leave everything shared in half between my sister and me which is madness and makes my hair stand, and I want to insist on splitting everything so that we know who owns what. We already had a conversation about this in the past and I was the only one to push for this, and did not prevail. But I want to bring it up again because future will be hellish if this arrangement stands. I am just so tired of needing to have a conversation every time I go back and having to prepare for it. It might not be the same topic but it is always a tough conversation that needs to be had, when it should be a relaxing holiday time. I wish this wasn't the case.
Quote from: walking on broken glass on December 11, 2023, 05:39:27 AM...and you don't have children so that they are glued to you when you get older.
Right? Have you ever read anything about Borderline Personality Disorder? He sounds like my waif/hermit BPD mother-in-law. The universe is so unfair to her, and yet she never really does anything to improve her lot. Just expects good fortune to land in her lap. :roll:
I was so focused on my sister who is definitely uBPD that I didn't consider my dad's case! I think he is more narcissistic than borderline. Getting older makes things worse too.