Another giant, productive, emotionally draining conversation with DSS

[Penny Lane]

Hello everyone! I hope everyone on here is managing coparenting with a PD during a global pandemic ( ) as best as possible.

Over here things had been going about as well as could be expected. But recently things took a bad turn which I will detail a little bit. And last night DSS12 and I had a long and involved conversation about his parents, the differences between his two houses and specifically the stress it's causing him. I would love feedback from the brain trust and particularly any advice about where to go from here. Sorry in advance, this is gonna be lo-o-o-ong, I'm still kind of processing it.

So, the backstory: When the pandemic first really erupted here and the kids started staying home, BM wasn't perfect but she was pretty good (for her). The kids were getting most of their school work done at her house, DH didn't hear much from her on anything, and when he did it was fairly productive. The kids, especially DSS, have been pretty stressed about coronavirus. So we've been spending a lot of energy dealing with that. DSS has been talking constantly about how stressed he is and asking for ways to deal with it. We'd discussed with him the possibility of going back to a therapist, and sometimes he seemed to love the idea while other times he didn't really want to do it.

Things took a turn when it seems that BM had a huge fight with her boyfriend. We obviously didn't hear this from her, only from the kids, so we're sort of piecing together a puzzle. But it seems that they had a big fight, he moved out, then he (maybe?) moved back in, and it's unclear at this point whether he's still there. I say "moved out" but it seems that he wasn't fully living there in that he had been paying rent on his old apartment and maybe just moved some stuff out of her house. His job has been greatly affected by the pandemic and it sounds like they had some fights about money. Meanwhile she has apparently totally given up on making sure the kids follow social distancing restrictions as well as supervising them at all. They are having daylong "adventures" with neighbors, no masks or distancing, where they wander really far into kind of sketchy areas. We think she probably doesn't know where they are for most of the day, or whether they're safe. We also think that in the last couple weeks she's flipped her favorite from DSD back to DSS, which is a huge stressor to both of them.

So, DSS's stress/anxiety has ramped up tremendously. He's getting constant stress headaches and he's asking about taking anti anxiety medication. He also has pretty much daily stomach problems that get much worse right before he has to go back to her house. He's doing a lot of whining, which is frustrating for us but more importantly a sign that he's not happy. He and I have been having several times a day conversations about his stress level and how he feels, and we'll do check ins about what is his stress level on a scale of 1-10. Lately it's been 6 and higher. One thing I've done is encourage him to talk about what is stressing him out and he often says coronavirus and "money problems," and that he's worried about all the people who can't afford food during the pandemic. It seemed clear to me that the stress at his mom's house is a large cause of this. So finally last night I just asked him, it seems like the tension between your mom and your dad is causing a lot of your stress. Do you want to talk about that?

I guess he has just been waiting to get it out there because we had a wide ranging and eye opening conversation:

-- He said that he doesn't like it when his dad (my DH) makes digs about his mom, and even though he doesn't mention her by name it's clear what he's talking about. This is a bad habit DH had mostly tamped down. But I think the stress of the pandemic has lowered his self-control a bit. I also think that BM does this times a million, and doesn't even try to not badmouth DH in front of the kids, so DSS is getting it from both houses. I encouraged DSS that if DH says this sort of thing, that he could say "I don't like it when you talk about mom like that" or even "I don't want to hear this" and leave the room. I told him about how I set boundaries with some family members, who I love, because they can't help themselves but complain about something that I don't agree with them about.

-- He said that he gets jealous when he sees other kids with divorced parents who can get along together. Apparently one of his friends' other parent brought something over to the house when DSS was there and the two parents had a relatively pleasant conversation. DSS said he wishes we could all just have a barbecue together and talk. I told him that I too wish that could happen although I don't see it as likely. I said that he's just seeing one small part of those other adults' interactions and just like he doesn't want to broadcast that his parents can't get along, there is probably a lot that he's not seeing with those other parents. I also told him that I can 100% promise that his dad and I are both trying as hard as we can to deescalate and make things more civil between his parents. I said I don't know how to make a barbecue happen and that he might need to lower his expectations a little. He asked why and I said for example, the last time that his mom and I had any meaningful interaction she was standing at our door screaming at me and we had to call the police. (I felt comfortable saying that because the kids witnessed it - he wasn't learning anything new). He asked, "She didn't apologize for that?" I said, "No, she told me she thought her behavior was appropriate. That makes me think that she might do it again." And I said I don't know how to have a positive relationship with someone who treats me like that, so I've concluded that the best thing for the kids is that we have a very limited relationship where I pretty much only say hi to her when I see her.

-- DSS then said she had told him that she apologized to me for the yelling incident. I said, well I never saw an apology. Then he said that he hears drastically different accounts from mom and dad and that he doesn't know who to believe. I encouraged him to not try so hard to sort through it and instead focus on getting out of the middle of it. I asked for examples and he said "mom says she's trying to make it better and that dad makes things harder. But you and dad tell me that he's trying to resolve it." I said, well, what I've seen of their conversations, both of them ARE trying to make it better. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Both of them have definitely improved their interactions. I asked if he's noticed that things have gotten better, and he said yes. (I mean, on her end it's like, she's not calling DH an asshole anymore and when she comes to our house to harass us she stays in the car rather than drunkenly trying to push her way in ... but still, that is an improvement).

-- He asked, when DH and I talk about messages to BM, what are we talking about? (I think that BM says that I'm the mastermind of all of the bad stuff at our house, though I'm not sure). I told him that while his dad makes all the decisions, I often help him word it in a way that's as kind and as clear as possible. And that when you have a lot of tension, it's important to think through the best way to write a message so that there isn't room for misinterpretation. I also said that I see my job as to encourage his relationship with BOTH parents, and the best way I know how to help is to help DH deescalate things.

-- He then referenced a specific time that DH was somewhat rude to BM in front of the kids and asked why he said that. (The context was that day, DH had had to file an emergency motion because the kids did not have health insurance and when he found out about that, BM straight up lied to him for two weeks and told him that they were insured when they were not. Then that night, the day he filed, she showed up an event she normally would never go to. She disregarded his requests about where to be and really invaded our space. DH asked her to back off but kind of rudely. I don't even blame him; at that point, he and I were so overwhelmed and stressed and exhausted, it was about the kindest he could have been. She also immediately proceeded to be rude to me.) What I told DSS was that DH was really stressed and frustrated about something else and it came out in that way. Then DSS asked me if there were things that I couldn't tell him. And I said yes, eventually when he's grown up we will tell him everything if he wants it. But I don't think he does, it's not fun to hear about. Even I get stressed when I see my parents argue, and they're together!

-- I asked him to tell me what he likes about his mom. He started comparing the houses, like, "well I like that I have more freedom at mom's house." I said, no, don't compare the houses. Tell me what you like about mom, or mom's house. I think he kind of got it - although he told a story that didn't involve her at all, it was about making something with her boyfriend. He said it felt really good to talk about that and I said I really like hearing about times he's happy and having fun, no matter where it is. DSS then said he doesn't feel like he can say that kind of stuff to dad because dad will start saying stuff that's good about our house like it's a competition.

-- Then, unprompted by me, he started listing the things he likes about our house. He started by talking about items he owns but pretty quickly I think he started talking about the stability. He even said he likes that we have structure about video games because at his mom's house they have unlimited video game time and he doesn't like that!! And then he said that he likes that we budget for things. (Earlier DH and I had gone over a summer budget for big purchases to figure out what we need and what can wait until fall). He said that his mom will just agree to buy them whatever they ask for and then she runs out of money and that causes him a lot of stress. And he said that a lot of the money stress that he talks about over here is actually rooted in instability with money over there and it's just coming out over here. Which I thought was very perceptive. Her inability to budget is the root of a lot of the tension between her and DH.

-- He said he asked her why she deletes all of the texts between herself and him before the kids return to our house. She said she doesn't want DH to get mad at her. I said, well what would happen if dad saw the texts? And DSS said, he might get mad. I said, OK, say he would, then what? DSS said, I don't know. And I said, well, nothing, he can't really do anything about it. (In retrospect this isn't quite true - if the texts have some evidence that she's in contempt of court, he could add it to his outstanding contempt motion. But we think she's not hiding contempt, she's hiding neglect or general evidence of bad parenting).

So that's the gist, again sorry for the novel. My takeaway is that things have gotten really stressful at his mom's house, centered around money (maybe because the bf moved out? or the bf lost his job?). And a lot of that stress is leading to bad behaviors and more stress over here. But also that we're not creating a 100% welcoming environment to hear about it because DSS is feeling like his mom is being judged.

So what now? I'm trying to remind myself that when we have these big picture conversations, they often take awhile to sink in. And he needs a lot of time to digest and process and compare the things that I say vs what he observes, both here and at his mom's house. So I guess now in large part I need to be patient and see if the conversation landed the way it should.

I've already talked to DH about the two issues that DSS raised (digs about BM and about comparing the two houses). He's going to really work on toning that down, and possibly write some scripts for himself to say when he's mad at BM but doesn't want to say that in front of the kids. I think that will help a lot, at least in allowing the kids to open up.

I think I need to clarify a few things to DSS. One, when I told him that he shouldn't focus on finding out who's telling the truth and that both parents are trying to make things better - I'm worried this feeds into BM's gaslighting about the situation. While I would hope that he doesn't have to focus on finding out who's right, I also think I need to tell him that if there is a factual discrepancy, and he really wants to know the truth, he can ask me and I will tell him the facts that I know. (Often, the way that BM lies is that she tells one tiny details and omits the context that would put that detail into better light. So at minimum if she's doing this to the kids, I want him to know the additional context). The other thing is that when I told him that his dad can't do anything about it if he's mad at his mom, that's not technically true and I think that deserves a more nuanced explanation of how exactly it could play out.

I'm going to talk to him again about seeing a therapist. I told him that it seemed like he felt really good talking about all this, and it might help more to talk about it with someone who's truly an unbiased third party. He seemed to agree but he's kind of gone back and forth on this point. But DH can at least start researching people who might be a good fit for what DSS needs.

One other thing: I suspect, although I don't know for sure, that BM is showing DSS her messages to DH and painting a very inaccurate picture of the context. For example showing him a message SHE wrote that sounds on the surface like it's productive, and telling DSS that DH didn't respond but not updating DSS when DH does respond. Or something like that. We didn't really address that but I would like to find ways to counter it, if we're able.

So ... any other thoughts? Suggestions? Feedback? I never know if I'm walking the line of telling him the truth vs not putting him in the middle. I generally feel good about how this went. But it was also overwhelming and really emotionally difficult and I just feel so bad about sending him back over there with no protection.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi PL,

I think you did an amazing and balanced job of having this discussion with DSS!  It sounds like he was willing to talk about a lot of things that were bothering him, and from what your wrote, it sounds like he is assessing things very much at face value...which IMO is great.  I think your best bet is to keep the line of communication open, but don't push for him to talk.  You know you can't fix what is happening at BMs, you are working on the things he doesn't like at your house, so beyond that....love, support, willingness for open dialogue is at the top of the list.  Therapy would certainly be a great idea, but in our experience that's a mixed bag depending on the therapist. 

It also seems that he isn't overly gas lighted?  Or is that not true?  I know that no matter what happens with my SKs, BM is able to twist it into our fault and gaslight the kids. She cornered and screamed at us in public,  I was literally frozen in fear.....and DSD remembers it as "SL was yelling at mom".   It sounds like BM definitely lies to your SKs, but he has a good sense to not fully buy in to what she is saying- hence the immense stress. 

How is DSD doing through all of this??

[Penny Lane]

Thank you SL!!! I really appreciate the kind words, it helps to have someone outside my own head affirm that I'm doing the right thing. You always have very good perspective.

On the therapy: I do recognize that we could get burned by it though, like you have. The last person he saw, both parents were in the room with him and he said they mostly talked. What he really needs is someone to listen to him. The last person also wasn't very big on empowering kids to deal with problems themselves, they were more about telling the parents what to do. Maybe they would've gotten more out of it if they had stuck with it longer, but BM was able to end it, so I guess we'll never know. I think we're going to ask my and DH's therapists for recommendations. I think at minimum a therapist could talk to DSS about his stress and give him techniques for handling it better in the moment, and coronavirus is a good reason to pursue that now. There's no solution, only more tools in the toolbox.

About whether he is gaslit: I would say luckily that BM has not been able to just totally overwrite his memory of events. I do think she tries, based on the fact that if we question DSS's memory or retelling of something, he gets really really upset, like it's obviously triggering something in him.

She is still manipulating him in sort of gaslight-adjacent ways that are stressful, though, and that seems to have more success or is causing more stress. It's what I was saying about giving him a tiny fact that looks much different than the larger context. But beyond that I think she says it in a really righteous way, and she wants him to conclude that OF COURSE this explains her behavior/means she's right. But if he stops to think about it, logic and common sense wouldn't lead you to that conclusion. So his critical thinking is making him question what she's saying, and since she's saying it with so much confidence that also means he's questioning her. And that's hard and scary.

For example, on the thing about deleting her texts to him. He knows that it's wrong for anyone to ask the kids to hide something from their parent. Even if it's another parent. We never ask them to do that stuff, and we've drilled into the kids that they should not have secrets from DH. So BM forcefully tells him that it's OK if she deletes the texts because she doesn't want DH to see them. Well, DSS knows that's wrong, and that's clearly not a good reason. But she says it like, that's it, end of discussion. He knows in his gut that that's not right, but he's not sure how to articulate that, because what she said is maybe factually true (that DH would get mad) but her premise is off (that that's a good reason to hide things from DH). I think you are correct that this is part of what causes the immense stress. I am very proud of him and he is very strong to be standing up to it.

I also think in a lot of ways she's gaslighting him about his feelings about the situation. He knows that her behavior isn't OK and it's not OK to have parents who can't even speak to each other. She acts like it's OK, or that it's all DH's fault, and that is gaslighting just not in the sense of rewriting his memory of something, more like trying to rewrite his perception of it.

SD: Interestingly, SD seems much, much happier and SS seems much, much less happy lately and I think a large part of it is the switch from SD to SS as the golden child. SS had always been the golden child until BM switched it up right at the beginning of the school year. Just as suddenly she switched it back. It was like a huge stress immediately lifted off SD and settled onto SS. SD is back to a much more bubbly and energetic version of herself and she is once again very snuggly with me and very interested in working on projects with DH. It's again proof in my mind that BM puts an unbelievable and impossible amount of pressure on her favorite, and that being neglected is far preferable to having her attention.

DSD also seems to be slightly too young to be really hit by the coronavirus stress, other than being in the middle of a bunch of adults who are stressed. So she's doing some stuff, like reverting to younger behaviors and needing a lot more attention, but overall her stress is a lot less complicated than SS's. It does require more attention that BM can/will give her, but we can make up for it at our house whereas we can't really make up for BM putting DSS in the middle.

When I said the switch was stressing both kids out, what I meant was that we had a (brief) rough period after the favorite changed. I think DSD was trying to recreate the dynamic she had previously seen at her mom's house, where she could goad DSS and then cry and the adults would automatically take her side. We had a lot of "problem-solving" conversations about how they treat each other, but that only really lasted for a few days or a week and then it settled down. I do have a sense, maybe more like a gut feeling, that things are pretty bad for SD at BM's house. But she hasn't said anything specific that would lead me to know for sure.

I have to imagine that BM is treating the kids really, really badly. And I really wonder how the bf can see that and be OK with it. If I saw DH neglecting and emotionally abusing his own children like that, I would leave him in a second. Things did seem to go a lot more smoothly when the boyfriend was around more, so maybe she has so far reined it in in front of him? Or maybe she's gaslighting HIM into thinking it's OK? It's just so frustrating that so many adults are around her and the kids and no one steps in to help them.

[PeanutButter]

IMO you are an amazing mother! Great job. Those children are blessed to have you advocating for them.

[hhaw]

PL:

You know what to do.  You're doing it. 

The thing that jumped out at me was... this little boy is feeling so unsafe and alone and vulnerable.   He worries about money.... housing, food, stability for his mom...... and his mom talks about those things..... for different reasons, bc mainly bc she doesn't know better or can't do better.  That likely won't change, IME.

I bet he worries about his sister....  his mom's bf, who seems to have bonded with him a bit.  That he's speaking to you speaks to the stability and safety you provide in his life.  Teaching him how to feel safe within himself, no matter what's going on around him, seems like a really great way to approach his anxiety going forward, IMO.  That way, you know what he's exposed to.  There's no T getting manipulated by bio mom.  No new trauma for ss to work through. 

Helping ss develop good coping strategies.... not tell him what to do or think, comes to mind.  He'll need good coping strategies no matter what's going on right now.  You seem to be someone he goes to.... someone he listens to. 

This is just a suggestion, but I'm proud I'm SEEING this with some distance myself.  Getting ss's nose of the pebble he's focusing on.... OFF the mom, money, parental conflict stuff.... and ON things he can control. 

What can he control?
t
He can control his thoughts, what he does to handle his stress...... he can find things to do that comfort him.

I'm wondering if this is the sort of child who would take to yoga and meditation or not?   Some children have reflection notebooks they keep in class, which is close to the kind of work I'm talking about.

This child will never feel better IF his serenity depends on the people around him.  If he can shift his dependence to himself.... his own internal world.... that would be better.

I'm spitballing quickly, but another thing that comes up is...... helping ss accept the situation and adult conflict as it is would be helpful.   He's so badly wants things to be different, and they never will be.  That's a lot of stress for a child to deal with day in and day out.  I'd be very clear.... explaining the situation in an age appropriate way.  Validating his feelings.  Wishing things were different too... for your own serenity, but explaining how you've accepted ifor yourself.  I guess this lesson is about accepting things that aren't OK, and letting them go.  I'ts difficult to write about, much less do it, but it's different than telling a child to
get out of the middle."  He doesn't know how to do that, and when he does it brings more anxiety.

So what's the cure?

I'd be very tempted to teach him about different coping strategies in life. 

There's the worry worry worry strategy most of us employ.  It takes it toll on our lives, our health.... it robs us of joy.  We focus minutely on THE PROBLEMS and try try try to resolve them over and over and over... when there's no real solution.  I'm very familiar with this strategy. 

Then there's the DO WHAT WE CAN then put it down and live your best life in the moment strategy.

That's the one where we find joy every day, no matter what's going on, bc we make a choice to find joy.  Teaching your ss he has a choice.  Teaching him how to be more responsive... to take a moment and sit with difficult feelings.... to breathe for a while before reacting... or to calm himself so he can be more responsive when he does make a choice.  THAT's something you can give this child for the rest of his life.

We all benefit when we become aware of our inner worlds.   Ask ourselves how we feel, where we feel it in our body.  What does it feel like? What the the adjectives?  Give it a number, and breathe space into and around that discomfort.  We have more control over our pain and emotions than we understand.  We should learn to do this in school, not after we've had children and are hitting bottom or struggling hard, which is when most of us see a T.

I guess I'm saying.... you can be this boy's T, in your own capable way.   I think you do a wonderful job with allowing this child voice and to feel heard.

If you can teach him to take care of his emotions..... you might end up being the most important person in his life. 

I'm guessing this book is a great place to start.  I haven't read it myself, but this author has taught me how to find peace in moments I can't think.   
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ahlk1L8YL._SY498_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Good luck!

I

[BeautifulCrazy]

Hi Penny Lane,
My oldest DS is a year older than your SS, my second, a couple years younger. We have had (and still do have) similar conversations.  Really, it sounds like you are already doing everything you can think of, and so much of it is really great! For a boy his age to be talking at all is sometimes miraculous! It sounds like he can really trust and be honest with you!!  You have my respect and best wishes. My experiences as a foster parent have taught me what a Godsend a decent step-parent can be and you sound like a really great one!!
I've got a bunch of thoughts climbing over each other to get out and it's super late. Hopefully I'm coherent and have something helpful.
So yeah, first thing is I think you should hold off on hosting any barbecues!! Lol. My boys have both expressed this kind of jealousy/ envy of other kids with divorced parents who get along better than theirs do. It's natural for them to grieve the loss of their "conventional" family and feel sad, too, that things can't be easy peasy and friendly with their parents all the time after divorce. They are at an age now where they are beginning to discern for themselves and form opinions on some of the different ways of being. They are picking up more of the subtleties of adult interaction and wondering about them and questioning them. I found with my boys that just validating their grief and frustration at not having an ideal family situation was enough at the time. Just to acknowledge and empathize and let them know it was natural and okay to feel that way and just be there for them while they felt their way through it and if they wanted to express it. At the time it felt totally inadequate and lame not to have a fix and just listen to them, but now they joke about some of those things they once wished for, like "The Whole Family Birthday Party". Lol.
I know it's difficult when you care so much and want so badly to make it right, but you can't fix it for them. It feels nearly as bad for you as it does for them. But life is full of that. Like Hhaw wisely said, they need us to teach them the skills for coping with these stresses and disappointments. With a PD parent, there will almost inevitably be many!
I also wanted to add that even though you might feel the need, you really, really don't have to explain or justify or do a mini-JADE session about your behaviour and dad's behaviour toward bio-mom or any parental circumstances or interactions. Not only do you not have to, but sometimes, especially if things are super nuts on the other end, maybe you shouldn't. With at least one of my boys it was subtly feeding his anxieties when I did that and I think may have added to the burden he was carrying due to the oversharing and inappropriateness that was going on at the other house. Like, the more I JADED my actions and decisions, the more they found to question and compare and the more I fed the drama because my constant efforts to talk it down made it seem like a big, fat, anxiety provoking deal. One very humbling day my therapist rammed home to me that I was the adult and my job was to provide support and teach skills, not JADE the intricacies of our parental dysfunction. Since that day I have tried really hard to present to my kids, "Don't worry. I've / we've got this. Grown ups are handling the grown up stuff (ex included). We are doing the best we can. How are YOU feeling? What can we do to help YOU manage?" Just being a haven of stability and sureness and absolutely not feeding any uncertainty and stressors that were not theirs to deal with. It's difficult when there is so much confusion and stupid oversharing of adult stresses on the other end but these are NOT kid concerns and you can't let them suffer with it. I had to do some fluffing of my ex, not exactly dishonest, but even I had serious fear and doubt about how stable things were with money, food, housing, behaviours etc. on my ex's end. I just kept reassuring the kids that the grown ups would handle it (whatever "it" was) and everything would be fine. So far that has been the case even on PDs end, and the kids are less stressed out and it has also almost eliminated their getting caught in the middle of adult things.
I love the way you handled SS's concern about how his dad was talking about BM some of the time. And I wanted to reassure you that he may actually be presenting the other side of the situation, but in a way that protects all parties. Sounds like you already know that though. My youngest presented this exact thing in a therapy session last year. He said to the T that he didn't like some of the comments I made about his dad and they discussed it for a while. Weeks later he guiltily confessed to me that he had brought this up to the T but he had really been talking about the comments he heard at his other house. (He thought the T might be talking or reporting to someone outside the sessions like happened previously when we were going through family court.) Anyway, he knew I wouldn't be upset or threatened by him discussing any of my parenting faults in his therapy but he worried his dad might have any number of bad reactions. It was a safe way to bring up the subject and get some ideas and feedback. (Just an aside - He knows his therapy is 100% confidential now.)
Your SS may be presenting an opposite scenario because you aren't going to get mad or otherwise upset at his dad like you might if he admitted his mom was doing it. It sounds like you are working with him on some great strategies that will apply equally in either house!! You rock!!
Oh, and I just remembered a time when my oldest got really contradictory stories/ impressions from the ex and I about something. It was a bit like your apology/ no apology scenario. He was really struggling about "who to believe". (Again, JADEing just makes you look equally as suspect as the PD, and possibly crazier!) I said nothing about the specific situation to him except that the grownups were handling it the best they could. But I also reminded him that two people could experience exactly the same thing and come away from it with very different, even completely opposite viewpoints about what happened. I talked about some conflicts he had with his younger brother where they had each presented to me a story that was almost opposite what their brother had said. They were both there. They were party to the same interaction. Their views and descriptions were massively different. I also pointed out that I don't have to choose a side in their argument and I definitely don't love either of them any less.

But really Penny Lane, you are doing wonderfully well by your SS. He is lucky to have you. You needn't question yourself so much. There is so much in PD land that will happen that you can't really "counter" or defend or do anything about without being dysfunctional yourself. What you can do (and it sounds like you are) is teach your SKs how to handle the yuck when it happens. Listen a lot, validate the heck out of them. Discuss and teach healthy relationships. Be a good role model. Help them identify what feels bad to them and how to respond (inwardly and outwardly) to it in constructive ways.
I suspect some of the anxiety SS is feeling might be him discerning that mom might not be "normal" or not functioning as well as an adult should. That's really tough on a kid. They love their parents so unconditionally. I see that disillusionment my kids are experiencing with their PDf. The fallout all happens here... where it's safe to feel and discuss.
You are the safe haven for those kids and you're doing a great job at it, that's a huge benefit to them. And you shouldn't worry you are "sending them back there unprotected".  Every functional thing you model, every validating word you say, every fully attentive conversation you engage in, every promise kept, every unselfish bit of love you give, every non-judgemental piece of advice you offer, every compassionate act you deliver, every skill taught or practiced, every reassurance followed through, every time they feel valued.... these things go everywhere with them! Every little thing may not specifically be held or remembered but it sure does add up!!
You're doing fine!!
♡
~BC

[hhaw]

PL:

When your ss asks about your dh's actions and words toward bio mom.... when he brings up the adult conflict.... ask him what HE thinks about it.

And listen.

Lots of times kids already understand the situation very well.

They lack the tools and ability to make peace with it... accept it and put it on the shelf.  They don't know how to get their nose off that pebble, as they say in T.

[Penny Lane]

Thanks you guys! I reread these posts several times. They are very full of advice and wisdom. I appreciate it soooo much. I'm going to try to internalize everything you said.

[sevenyears]

Penny - it sounds like you did, and are doing, an amazing job.  SKs are lucky that you are such an amazing presence in their lives.

[Penny Lane]

We've had somewhat of a two steps forward, one step back situation. He and I had a few good talks, he seemed pretty frustrated with his mom, I talked him through options.

Then one day he came back and it was like he was a whole other kid. Like full on teenage whining for days, largely asking us to buy stuff or lift COVID-related restrictions we've had.

I can't tell if it's normal preteen whining. I do think that's part of it. But I think BM must be driving a lot of it? I think probably he started asking her some pointed questions and rather than giving him thoughtful answers, she tried to turn it around and make him mad at us.

I'm so disheartened. I know this is a part of the cycle. But I'm really struggling with this brand new, super adversarial attitude from him. I feel like we can all work things out together. But if he treats us like the enemy then I just don't know what to do. I guess I don't know what to do with a budding teenager on top of a PD!

[Penny Lane]

Another two steps forward, I think.

Things kind of came to a head on the whining when we realized DSS was feeling forced to keep from us that his mom is not following social distancing guidelines, like, at all and is in fact encouraging or requiring the kids to do stuff that puts them in close contact with other people (not protests, like sending them over to various neighbors' houses). So it started out as a talk about him lying to us, how to repair trust, etc. But when he started really sharing how he was feeling it seems clear that he's being put in an impossible situation and he doesn't really know what to do. Apparently it had been really weighing on him that BM had told him not to tell stuff to DH because he would be "mad" at her. SS asked DH if he was mad at BM, and DH said no, and SS said it was a huge relief.

Interestingly, he said that he feels caught between his parents on COVID restrictions. He doesn't want to disagree with either of them, but it's clear that they have strong disagreements with each other. He said that he wants to agree with his mom because under her system he's allowed to see his friends more often. But that what we say makes sense and it's hard to not agree with us.

This led to yet another long conversation where I told him the things that I had meant to say after the conversation that prompted this. He told me he only hears snippets of conversations and he wishes he knew the full picture. He asked what his parents talk about, and I told him truthfully that in the last week or so DH has only asked BM a couple things, which DSS already knew about because he'd asked him to. ("Can the kids take this item over to your house" type stuff). He asked what kinds of things they disagree about, and I gave an example of an issue that I suspect is at the root of BM's hiding behaviors, and that I knew DSS already knew about.

-- He also said he's noticed that if he asks his mom for something, she'll say yes, but if DH asks for the same thing, she'll say no. I said I'd noticed that pattern too and found it frustrating and asked him why he thinks that is. He didn't really know, and I said I didn't know why either. He said that makes him feel put in the middle because if he wants his mom to agree to something, he has to ask her himself. I said that sounds really hard.

-- He then said that he knows the parents are in court because he heard his mom saying that DH was taking her back to court. He really doesn't like it when they're in court and he really doesn't want them to be. I explained the larger picture situation of why they would be in court, and he said he wishes they could just work it out. Basically the gist was that his parents should be able to work things out without going to court. I said I agree, but there are some situations where it's important that someone else needs to make the final decision, like if one parent isn't following the rules they agree on. He said, well why can't the other parent just point it out? And I said well, the problem is that they don't even agree on whether they're breaking the rules or not. I gave a quick example but really didn't want to tell him what the issues were in court or what people's positions were. He said, if I asked mom would she say the same thing? And I said no, she would say she's doing the right thing. That's why an outside person needs to make a judgment call.

-- We talked a little about the rules and he said the focus doesn't seem to be about his well being. I said everything his dad and I do, with his mom and everything else, has the kids' well being at heart. He also seemed very surprised to learn that the rules say the parents are not allowed to speak badly about each other.

-- He has been really pushing for a slight schedule change that will make things easier during COVID. He also has a friend whose parents are divorced, who are much more flexible with each other than DH and BM. So DSS is having a lot of questions about why we have to stick to the schedule as written, why they can't be more flexible with each other, etc. This is something that DH and I have come to after years of trying but now DSS wants to know "why can't we just try this one time and if it causes a problem we can go back to the way it was." I'm not totally sure what to say, that sounds reasonable but honestly we are at 100% stress with the pandemic and the protests and having these conversations with him every single night, I don't think we have the capacity to introduce a new element with BM into it.

-- He really, really wants his parents to be able to have a conversation in person. I asked him the last time he remembers his parents talking. He said he can't remember them ever talking but he's probably blocking it out. He definitely is. As recently as last month, she has taken the phone away from SS to yell at DH. I've seen her scream at him countless times in front of the kids, and not that long ago. I didn't remind him of any of that but I did say that it doesn't seem like they are capable of having a polite conversation and that they both agreed that it's best for the kids that they have their conversations in writing. Then DSS said he wants them to talk in person so he can hear it, and I said that's exactly what we DONT want.

-- He again brought up an incident from several years ago where DH was slightly rude to BM. Then he asked if she's not allowed on our property (the subject of the rudeness). I said, well after that night that she came to our door and tried to push her way in, your dad asked her not to come back to the house. She came anyway that time. We can't actually stop her from coming to the street but we can ask her to stay off the property. He asked if that's still in effect and I said yes other than for drop offs and pick ups. I reminded him that he actually knew this - for awhile after the incident they were meeting in public places, and the kids had a lot of questions about that, and they knew at the time that it was a result of the incident. He said he probably blocked that out, too. I said, well maybe if you're blocking this stuff out, it's good for you to forget it, maybe you don't actually want to know the answers to these questions?

-- He said that the two houses are so different and it's hard to keep it all straight. For example, at mom's house they express love by teasing each other whereas here we express love by having in depth conversations and hugging and kissing each other. (My heart broke). He said he worries about the long term effects of this. I said I do too, but I'm not sure what to do. I can't become different and I'm not very good at teasing.

He really, really wants to know the ins and outs of their discussions. I think that he wants to be able to see who is right and who is wrong. Obviously I think we are right. But I also want him to be able to feel like you can love two people who don't get along. Like, if he someday needs to set serious boundaries with BM, like NC or something else drastic, I don't want it to be because he's chosen sides in what he sees as the DH/BM battle. I want it to be because that's what HE needs.

There is one big answer to a question I think he has but he didn't directly ask. That is why did they go back to court the first time. And the reason is that she let the kids' insurance lapse, DH couldn't afford to keep paying her child support (and he had lost his job and gotten a much lower paying job) and provide health insurance, she wanted MORE child support, so he had to go back to court to make sure the kids have health insurance, and she fought to keep them off DH's health insurance because she ended up losing out on child support (even though she actually came out ahead financially because the insurance was cheaper). I don't think DSS is old enough to hear all that. I think I will tell him that I can't discuss anything about court with him but if he wants to know when he's an adult that I'll tell him.

I'm trying to find the line between reassuring him that everything is OK and adults will handle it (like you said BC) vs validating his true observation that things ARENT really OK. I can truthfully say that things are better, that I know his dad is trying his hardest and it appears to me that his mom is too. But I don't really think it's OK that they can't hold a civil conversation with each other. And I don't really think it's OK that they (mostly BM - DH has done a heroic job of immediately turning it around on the little comments) are putting DSS in the middle in all these big and little ways.

Phew. Thanks for coming along on this journey. I have really taken to heart and tried to incorporate everything that everyone said. This is some of the hardest stuff I've dealt with in the years of knowing the kids. DSS is such a smart, perceptive person and I really feel like I owe it to him to try to get this right.

[hhaw]

Another two steps forward, I think.

Things kind of came to a head on the whining when we realized DSS was feeling forced to keep from us that his mom is not following social distancing guidelines, like, at all and is in fact encouraging or requiring the kids to do stuff that puts them in close contact with other people (not protests, like sending them over to various neighbors' houses). So it started out as a talk about him lying to us, how to repair trust, etc. But when he started really sharing how he was feeling it seems clear that he's being put in an impossible situation and he doesn't really know what to do. Apparently it had been really weighing on him that BM had told him not to tell stuff to DH because he would be "mad" at her. SS asked DH if he was mad at BM, and DH said no, and SS said it was a huge relief.  Poor little guy doesn't know what to do or think.  He's in pain, struggling and that comes out sideways.  And then there's the fear of the virus and for his mom, not being careful, and for himself.

Interestingly, he said that he feels caught between his parents on COVID restrictions. He doesn't want to disagree with either of them, but it's clear that they have strong disagreements with each other. He said that he wants to agree with his mom because under her system he's allowed to see his friends more often. But that what we say makes sense and it's hard to not agree with us. You can explain that's called a double bind.... he's wrong no matter what he picks.  In the long run, he's going to have to start trusting himself and his gut.  Ask him what he thinks, over and over, as these things come up.  Honor his perceptions.  Correct his mistakes.  Keep doing what you do.... tell the truth without criticizing the mom. 

This led to yet another long conversation where I told him the things that I had meant to say after the conversation that prompted this. He told me he only hears snippets of conversations and he wishes he knew the full picture. He asked what his parents talk about, and I told him truthfully that in the last week or so DH has only asked BM a couple things, which DSS already knew about because he'd asked him to. ("Can the kids take this item over to your house" type stuff). He asked what kinds of things they disagree about, and I gave an example of an issue that I suspect is at the root of BM's hiding behaviors, and that I knew DSS already knew about.

-- He also said he's noticed that if he asks his mom for something, she'll say yes, but if DH asks for the same thing, she'll say no. I said I'd noticed that pattern too and found it frustrating and asked him why he thinks that is. He didn't really know, and I said I didn't know why either. He said that makes him feel put in the middle because if he wants his mom to agree to something, he has to ask her himself. I said that sounds really hard.

-- He then said that he knows the parents are in court because he heard his mom saying that DH was taking her back to court. He really doesn't like it when they're in court and he really doesn't want them to be. I explained the larger picture situation of why they would be in court, and he said he wishes they could just work it out. Basically the gist was that his parents should be able to work things out without going to court. I said I agree, but there are some situations where it's important that someone else needs to make the final decision, like if one parent isn't following the rules they agree on. He said, well why can't the other parent just point it out? And I said well, the problem is that they don't even agree on whether they're breaking the rules or not. I gave a quick example but really didn't want to tell him what the issues were in court or what people's positions were. He said, if I asked mom would she say the same thing? And I said no, she would say she's doing the right thing. That's why an outside person needs to make a judgment call.
I feel so sorry for your SS....he really seems to NEED the truth, without the rhetoric and judgment, IMO.  Just the facts, delivered with compassion for eveyone involved.  I'd be tempted to show him the court documents and explain what they mean.... all while asking him if it makes sense... does he understand... what does he think about it?  IF his mother isn't being judged.... IF her actions and words are simply being observed, without any opinions about it, besides ss'...... maybe he could better understand what's going on and why things can't be settled like rational adults.  I mean, he's aware his mother isn't always rational.  He SEES and HEARS it. 

To see the evidence, and be allowed to come to his own conclusions..... to be encouraged to SEE his mother with compassion and know she's unable to do better.  To understand better mental illness.... the mental illness IN HIS LIFE.... would IMO go a long way in helping him make sense and peace with the facts.  It might make it easier to focus on himself and coping strategies, bc it seems like he's really struggling and asking pointedly for help. 

A good T would seem to be in order.   When kids struggle they show us in their behaviors, school work, attitudes and habits. 

-- We talked a little about the rules and he said the focus doesn't seem to be about his well being. I said everything his dad and I do, with his mom and everything else, has the kids' well being at heart. He also seemed very surprised to learn that the rules say the parents are not allowed to speak badly about each other.  Again, I would love to see ss write down all the rules in BioM's house and yours.  Maybe have pros and con columns and really SEE it, in black and white, and come to his own conclusions about what is there. 

It;s not a crime to have mental health issues.  It's not something he can change.  All he can do is come to terms with the truth of it, and decide how he's going to handle himself around it.  How is he going to learn to do this?  How is he going to learn to feel at home and safe in his own body, with all the chaos in his life?


-- He has been really pushing for a slight schedule change that will make things easier during COVID. He also has a friend whose parents are divorced, who are much more flexible with each other than DH and BM. So DSS is having a lot of questions about why we have to stick to the schedule as written, why they can't be more flexible with each other, etc. This is something that DH and I have come to after years of trying but now DSS wants to know "why can't we just try this one time and if it causes a problem we can go back to the way it was." I'm not totally sure what to say, that sounds reasonable but honestly we are at 100% stress with the pandemic and the protests and having these conversations with him every single night, I don't think we have the capacity to introduce a new element with BM into it.  Do you believe showing ss the facts around this issue would do more harm than good?  Smart kids NEED information  and facts.  That was what the good forensic child psychologists told me and the court about the information my children asked for, and received from me. 

I'd protected them for years and years, until they were dragged into court by the PDs, and been told lies and frightened and put squarely in the middle of the conflict.  There as nothing left to do but answer their questions, with compassion, and zero judgment.  That's how I've continued to speak to them about the PDs, so much so youngest dd was still asking to see the PDs, with me there, to work things out, to get along.
It's heart breaking and understandable kids want the adults to BE adults.   With PD individuals, who're pathologivally unable to agree on AN YTHING, or speak the truth, or NOT leverage their children's emotional and physical safety..... the kids should have information, IME.  The kids should have their questions answered so they can figure things out for themselves. 

If you're afraid to do that.... I understand.  I will say this..... when my children were questioned by the forensic psychologists the words they used were always always always respectful when speaking about the PDs or their toxic sycophants.  The words I used were grown up, respectful, fact based and above all compassionate and that was evident.  I was never in trouble,even though the PDs and sycophants made a big fuss and asked for my punishment..... it was evident who was protecting the kids, and who was manipulating and harming them.  The FINAL ORDER said that, many different ways, and my kids didn't have to keep bouncing off walls trying to make sense of something, like this little boy is doing.

-- He really, really wants his parents to be able to have a conversation in person.  I asked him the last time he remembers his parents talking. He said he can't remember them ever talking but he's probably blocking it out. He definitely is. As recently as last month, she has taken the phone away from SS to yell at DH. I've seen her scream at him countless times in front of the kids, and not that long ago. I didn't remind him of any of that but I did say that it doesn't seem like they are capable of having a polite conversation and that they both agreed that it's best for the kids that they have their conversations in writing. Then DSS said he wants them to talk in person so he can hear it, and I said that's exactly what we DONT want.
This makes me so sad and reminds me of my youngest dd's questions and need to understand.  She got age appropriate snippets of the truth, but I wish I'd helped her understand more.

-- He again brought up an incident from several years ago where DH was slightly rude to BM. Then he asked if she's not allowed on our property (the subject of the rudeness). I said, well after that night that she came to our door and tried to push her way in, your dad asked her not to come back to the house. She came anyway that time. We can't actually stop her from coming to the street but we can ask her to stay off the property. He asked if that's still in effect and I said yes other than for drop offs and pick ups. I reminded him that he actually knew this - for awhile after the incident they were meeting in public places, and the kids had a lot of questions about that, and they knew at the time that it was a result of the incident. He said he probably blocked that out, too. I said, well maybe if you're blocking this stuff out, it's good for you to forget it, maybe you don't actually want to know the answers to these questions?
Again, I'm afraid I'd feel obligated to pull out documents and take ss on a tour of the facts.... with tsunamis of compassion for everyone involved.... mostly him..... and show him what everyone is dealing with.  BioM creates problems for herself, her children and for the dad.... you.  Responding to her with compassion and solid boundaries is the right way to deal with her.  The boundaries aren't a cruelty... they're self care.  They're setting limits to mitigate harm in every direction.  THIS is a really good jumping off point for discussing healthy boundaries, IMO.   Everyone should know what they are, why they're necessary, how to do it and what it means, personally..... learning how to discern what treatment we're willing to accept.  Learning how to discern when we're being treated unfairly or in ways we don't feel good about... and having the ability and voice to have a say in what happens to us. 

This isn't about, or shouldn'[t BE about biomom, IMO.  This should be about the lessons and how to stay safe for a lifetime emotionally, and  to be assertive without judgment.   

I don't think you can get in trouble for speaking honestly with ss when you refrain from criticizing the mom, particualrly when she continues disparaging you and the dad, IME.   

-- He said that the two houses are so different and it's hard to keep it all straight. For example, at mom's house they express love by teasing each other whereas here we express love by having in depth conversations and hugging and kissing each other. (My heart broke). bHe said he worries about the long term effects of this. I said I do too, but I'm not sure what to do. I can't become different and I'm not very good at teasing.  Again, with healthy boundaries and discernment and CHOICE in mind.... this boy should write out the differences, perhaps,  and SEE in black and white what he's talking about, have it validated and discuss what he thinks about it and how he feels he'd like to raise children when he's an adult, IMO.   Understanding doesn't mean he's asked to take sides.  It doesn't mean he has to judge anyone. 

I'd approach this with curiosity... and ask him to do the same.  What do we see.... when we shift into observer mode, very calmly.... and just take a look at the facts.  Teaching him not to judge.... teaching him to simply NOTICE what's going on around and inside him.  Teaching him to refrain from judging.  That's where understanding without fear and anger takes place.  He'll be a giant if he learns these lessons now. How to handle strong emotions.  How to express them.  Ask for help.  HELP himself. 


He really, really wants to know the ins and outs of their discussions. I remember when my youngest dd took my face in her hands and asked.... "What exactly did you say and what did daddy say?" She needed information and she asked for it.  I gave her age appropriate info, but wish I'd given more than I did.
I think that he wants to be able to see who is right and who is wrong. Again, I'd shift him away from judging wrong and right and into simply observing, without judgment, what the facts are.
To learning about why people make sad choices, which will be the case throughout his life... he'll always be dealing with his mother and friends and school chums making sad choices.  It's life.  It's not cause for making LIVE! DIE! judgements, bc that's just not helpful.  Understanding, and implementing healthy coping strategies... is,  IME  Obviously I think we are right. But I also want him to be able to feel like you can love two people who don't get along. Like, if he someday needs to set serious boundaries with BM, like NC or something else drastic, I don't want it to be because he's chosen sides in what he sees as the DH/BM battle. I want it to be because that's what HE needs.  I don't think you need to speak in terms of BIO mom all the way through your discussions.  You can shift to other examples to teach lessons and help him understand GENERALLY, how to handle boundary transgressions, people manipulating him, being lied to, triangulated..... teaching healthy communication would be a HUGE lesson for him and you can do that without pointing at the MOm, IME.  You're modeling healthy communication... that's HUGE and thank God.  Having his questions answered.... without judging.... would be so nice, along with education about the things I've mentioned, which you already know. 

What I offer is less fear, and more confidence to speak truth, and not be penalized for it. 

There is one big answer to a question I think he has but he didn't directly ask. That is why did they go back to court the first time. And the reason is that she let the kids' insurance lapse, DH couldn't afford to keep paying her child support (and he had lost his job and gotten a much lower paying job) and provide health insurance, she wanted MORE child support, so he had to go back to court to make sure the kids have health insurance, and she fought to keep them off DH's health insurance because she ended up losing out on child support (even though she actually came out ahead financially because the insurance was cheaper). I don't think DSS is old enough to hear all that. I think I will tell him that I can't discuss anything about court with him but if he wants to know when he's an adult that I'll tell him.  That's complicated and I agree ss shouldn't have all that information pinging around in his head.  You could speak generally around insurance, the disagreement around it, and the need for outside help from the courts... as you've been explaining. 

At some point this child can SEE his mother is pathologically  unable to make rational decsions when the dad is involved in any way.  That's not a criticism... it's a fact this child can understand without judging his mother, condemning her, labeling her as wrong, IME.  It's not about the insurance... it's a general truth the chlld can understand based on his experience and facts that can be proven, IMO.   

I'm trying to find the line between reassuring him that everything is OK and adults will handle it (like you said BC) vs validating his true observation that things ARENT really OK. SS is old enough and smart enough to ask questions and expect answers.  He's not being asked to take sides, at least not by you.  He's deserving of information that helps him make sense of his situation and I can't express enough how his home life can be a jumping off point for lessons about life, boundaries, logical consequences, discernment and feeling safe in his own body... learning to feel safe when chaos is all around him and he has no control over it.
Learning what he has control over, what he's responsible (himself and his responses) how to learn to respond instead of react... how to live feeling safe instead of fearful and danger..... how to engage and soothe his biochemistry.  What a gift and sure... the mom will try to have you lynched for it.  But think of the words you're giving him.  How they would sound if he told the court what he's hearing from youb and from his mom.  I think it will be OK to give him more information, if you feel it's OK.  If you don't, don't.  You have good insti9ncts and you're modeling good things for ss.   I can truthfully say that things are better, that I know his dad is trying his hardest and it appears to me that his mom is too. But I don't really think it's OK that they can't hold a civil conversation with each other. It's not fair.  It's wrong . It's impossible to make sense of UNLESS you understand generally sad and happy choices.  The ability to be civil, rational, adult or NOT be those things.  SS can learn a lot from this sad situation, or continue to be buffeted by it, frustrated by it, heartbroken by it, IME.   And I don't really think it's OK that they (mostly BM - DH has done a heroic job of immediately turning it around on the little comments) are putting DSS in the middle in all these big and little ways.  BioMom is doing the best she can.  If she could do better, she would.
She's broken.  She can't.  Dad would be reasonable, but any attempt goes haywire.  I thnk ss knows this, and you can validate that in a way that doesn't judge.  Help him shift into observer mode... with curiosity... take the fear out....tell him all the adults will be fine.... even if they aren't getting along, they'll be OK.  Even if sad chioces are being made... you don't have to say WHO's making sad chioces all the time. 

It always upset me to be included as one of the adults "making sad choices" when   Ts and attorneys were trying to speak about the PD's conduct and behavior without making it look like they were being ganged up on, so I was included in the statement.  Maybe dad has to take a few for the team in these conversations. 

I know I always always apologized to the kids if I raised my voice, was unkin or was wrong, explained why I did it, and how I'd avoid doing it in the future.  That taught them how to take responsibility,  make amends and learn how to do better going forward.  I guess I'm saying to not JUST focus on the Biomom, exclusively, which will also help ds avoid feelings of defensiveness on her behalf. 

You;re doing a heroic job with ss and the situation.  I'm so glad your ss has you in his life.

Phew. Thanks for coming along on this journey. I have really taken to heart and tried to incorporate everything that everyone said. This is some of the hardest stuff I've dealt with in the years of knowing the kids. DSS is such a smart, perceptive person and I really feel like I owe it to him to try to get this right.  If I learned nothing else during my trials and tribulations... smart, perceptive kids deserve enough information to come to their own conclusions and understand what is happening to them in their lives, IME.
  Good luck, and I'm not editing this bc of time.  Take everything with a great good rock of salt, please.

[hhaw]

PL:

I forgot to say... and I know I said a lot...but I forgot to say....
giving ss the words to deal with his mother might be helpful.

What he can say IF she talks about the adult conflict.  If she tries to put him in the middle, make him choose, worry him details about things he has no business worrying about.

His job is to discovery his passions, get decent grades and do his chores.  He's not required to listen to the adult conflict stuff, listen to either parent disparage each other (notice I didn't say biomom only) and to explore his world without being forced to participate or be a pawn in the PD triangulation/manipulation..... thing.

What you're doing is explaining to him what he's experiencing.  You aren't judging or disparaging his mother or father.

You aren't asking him to take sides.

You aren't asking him to decide who's right or wrong.

You;re deciding what information to give him... that he's asking for, and wringing his hands to have.  Your intentions are pure.  You want to help this child come Out of the FOG he was born into. 

I'm actually not assuming you'll do anything....  just suggesting things I wish I'd done more of. 

The truth is, my kids tuned out the adult struggle most of the time.  They weren't sensitive to it. They didn't feel obligated to pick sides, and when they did that ended pretty quickly, so I got lucky. 

IF they had to endure PDs demanding they choose sides, bad mouthing me, etc on an ongoing basis I would have given them words and phrases.... like..... 
That's not my business.  That's adult business. I don't want to hear you talk about that anymore.

Or.....

I don't want to hear about that right now. I love you and dad.  I don't have to choose one of you over the other and I'm not going to.

Or.....

I love you, mom, but I can't listen to you when you (insert troubling thing she does or says).  If you're going to continue to talk or do that thing, I'm going to have to go to my room/play outside/sit in the car, etc.

You'll likely have better ideas that that.  Just spitballing here and what about THAT can the Court find fault with?

[Stepping lightly]

Just throwing this in there based on experience in regards to the kids saying something the PD in regards to them stopping badmouthing of the other parent.  The effectiveness of this really depends on the PD and how volatile they are...the PD may see this as disloyal and the child taking the side of the other parent, even though that is not the case.  So, he may need to be armed with also saying, "I don't want anyone saying bad things about either of my parents".

[Penny Lane]

Very good points. It's funny that you mention the boundaries because that's what DH and I talked about too, the night that this happened. Frame it as "these are the boundaries that we have about how people treat us," with the idea that it reinforces the idea that boundaries are acceptable and good.

To your point, SL, when I initially suggested some scripts for DSS to talk to his dad (more and more I'm convinced that he was really looking for ways to talk to his mom) about this, he said "that sounds really hard to say." I said "well that's how I would say it, those are just examples, maybe you could find a better way to say it for you. But I don't know if he ever actually came up with anything, or if he ever actually tried to use the scripts.

We are again at the "one step back" phase. There was some kind of incident at their mom's house and DSD brought it up. What she was saying about it didn't make sense, like we could not make sense of the order she said things happened and what their mom told them about it. It seemed like there was some heavy gaslighting in play but we couldn't ever figure out why.

Well as DH was having this conversation with SD, SS TEXTED HIS MOM to ask further questions about it. So basically he inserted himself right into the middle of his parents, literally trying to pass messages between them even though no one asked him to. We were beside ourselves, at first it really seemed like she had concocted some kind of cover story for something bad that had happened and DSS was alerting her to the fact that DH was onto it. He said he "thought he could help" by getting answers from his mom. But he was also extremely defensive about the situation and kept insisting that DH was acting like he didn't believe them. He also said he felt "put in the middle" by simply hearing DSD and DH talking about this incident.

Now that I have had a few days to think about it I think this probably is a continuation of his wanting to hear what both parents say and assess their reactions. He was defensive but he also probably sees that it doesn't really make sense.

It was all very upsetting, both to see them lying and not know what BM is trying to hide, and also seeing DSS seem to stir the pot and create problems for no reason!

The reason I'm keeping this all in thread is that I truly do think all these incidents (they seem to happen almost every day the kids are here) are related, they're part of DSS's growth and brain development and his journey toward understanding his mother.

I also think that she is really leaning on the "freedoms" (neglect) the kids have at her house and really pushing the kids to choose her house over ours. And that is really tough for them to process. DSD is young enough that she just sort of checks out, but DSS is really getting the pressure.

I'm feeling so demoralized, this has been really hard on me and if it's hard on me I can't imagine how hard it is on the kids. There are not enough tools to share with them to make this easy. I don't really want them to have to see what their mom is really like, but she is trying to force the issue by lying to the kids and pressuring/gaslighting them.

[PeanutButter]

 So sorry to hear. I worry for you and your family that bm has dss caretaking her emotions, and enforcing for her (like a protector). I hope thats not what it is. Its not his fault even if he is I dont mean to blame him.
Its just that my experience was with an alienating ex and gm. So I wondered if she is trying to get the children to pick her house over yours is she also trying to get them to pick her over their dad? A demand they take sides instead of letting them love both parents.
You are doing so great. I admire you as a mother. How I wish any of my ex's wives could have been like you. Hang in there!

[hhaw]

Penny Lane:'

We protect the kids from the adult conflict as much as we can.  When the PDs shove it down the children's throats.... we don't have a choice but to be responsive in the situations, IME.  Particularly when the kids are asking for help to make sense of it.  Particularly when the kids are bright and suffer more when we don't act, IME.  It sucks, but accepting the situation as is saves our energy for problem solving and experiencing more joy, IME.     

This might not help, but maybe it will.   To veer off from JUDGING aspect of this situation, perhaps you could introduce the concept of discernment to the kids.  You  and their father have different house rules than biomom.  That's not a judgment... it's a choice...  it's discerning what makes sense to you for you.  The kids have the same option to make their own choices.  If they choose different than you or mom chooses... that's using their discernment.  It's not a judgement, or doesn't have to be a judgement, IME.   

The children should understand they'll have choices when they grow up.  They can take some behaviors from mom, some from dad, from you... and they have the right and oblgivation to decide if they want to do things completely different.  It's a good jumping off point for what they thing they'll do with children of their own when they grow up.  Maybe that shift in perspective will help.  Maybe not.

Good luck,

[Stepping lightly]

Hi PL,

I may be misinterpreting, but trying to be glass half full.  It may be that DSS has just "had enough" and thinks his stepping in can be helpful.  I honestly think even though this is hard, it is so hard because he is seeing the dysfunction.  This is cheesy, but think of him as the caterpillar turning into the butterfly.  He is in the uncomfortable transition period, but there is a lifetime of information for him to sort through.  Just stay consistent, patient, and keep talking to him.  Maybe straight up talk to him about being impressed by him trying to work through such a complicated situation, but you are concerned with him being thrown in the middle, maybe you can come up with an agreement on how he can feel "involved" without being in the middle.  I think this can include promising to always be upfront and honest with him, give him a little leeway with having a say in decisions wherever you can. 

It's a tough age- he's the same age as my SKs (13/14).  My DSD just got sucked in by BM and everything BM says is gospel and everything we say is wrong.  It's extremely frustrating. But- the sad thing is she isn't trying to sort through to the truth like your DSS.  She used to try, but once she became the perm GC at about age 11, she went full loyalty to BM.   I would feel better about her future mental health if she was at least questioning both parents.  Her total acceptance of 100% that comes out of her mom's mouth is not healthy for ANY kid IMO.  They need to have the ability at this age to start questioning what their told based on their experience/knowledge/world around them.

[Penny Lane]

SL, I think that's exactly right and as hard as this is to help him navigate, I do think it's probably overall a good thing. He is using his (pretty good, especially for a 12 year old!) critical thinking skills and applying them to both parents. What he's seeing is that the things that DH and I tell him are generally consistent and match up to objective reality. The things BM says are aggressive, often contradict each other, and don't match what he can see happening. But she can insert enough doubt that he feels like he needs to see the facts. Especially in the realm of what's going on between her and DH - DSS isn't SUPPOSED to see any of that, so she can characterize it however she wants so he gets one story from her and nothing from DH. I guess we need to keep thinking about how to find the line between involving him in it too much/vs not giving him enough information. I hope that he will start sharing more explicitly what BM says. I'm a lot more comfortable giving context about something he already has heard/correcting false statements than I am introducing him to a conflict between them that he knows nothing about.

I was not kidding when I said it's practically daily discussions because we had ANOTHER one, this time with all four of us.

We sort of clarified the previous situation. I think, though I'm not sure, he understands that it's OK to tell each parent about stuff he does at the other house but it is not ok to pass messages along between them, even (especially?) if no one is asking him to. SL, I came to the conclusion you did - he thinks that him stepping in can be helpful. I think this ties back to what he told me earlier, that if he asks his mom something she says yes but when DH asks her the same thing she says no. Similarly, I think he was thinking that if he asks his mom about a situation he gets an answer, if DH asks about it he does not. We suspect that the reason BM went to such great lengths to hide what really happened is because it involved neglect, that she wasn't there when it happened, and she knows she shouldn't leave the kids unattended and doesn't want DH to find out that she's doing so. I also think she's told the kids that DH will try to take them away from her, or that he will try to keep them from seeing their neighbors/friends, if he finds out about this stuff. So they're conflicted.

In the middle of all this, DSS had asked to take something over to her house. DH said he needed to ask her to make sure it's OK. She texted DSS and told him it was fine, then she told DH that it was not ok. So as part of this conversation we let him know what she had said. By the time she actually responded he had sort of changed his mind. But I definitely think this underscores how she will tell DSS what he wants to hear, then she will either not respond or say the opposite thing to DH and try to force him to be the bad guy. We explained to DSS that we have to respect BM's decisions about what she allows at her house and that we can't let him bring it over to her house if she's not OK with it.

We also learned that BM is not at all following COVID restrictions, to a much greater degree than we previously realized, and how much it's stressing DSS out. He feels that he would be safe if he got it but he knows that DSD and DH have underlying conditions (as do I, but he doesn't know that) that make them more susceptible. We've been having a lot of conversations with him about the rules we have in place, what health experts are recommending and why we feel like it's so important to take somewhat extreme social distancing measures. Well apparently even as he whines about not getting to see his friends, he's been listening. And he's stressed that BM not following the restrictions - as well as making it very difficult for him to follow restrictions, like making him go to friends' houses while she's at work - is putting us all in danger. We knew he was struggling with this but we learned how bad it really is and how much it is stressing him out that his mom is doing behaviors that we've explicitly identified as dangerous.

I suspect there's another piece to this, which is that we think BM made a huge deal about her parents not social distancing and the risk it was putting on DSD. I don't know for sure but I have good reason to believe that the kids overheard her having a big argument about how terrible it was that they would not follow the rules and how bad it is for DSD. So DSS has actually heard BM herself say that this behavior is wrong and that it puts his sister in danger. And yet just a few weeks later she's doing it herself. He's old enough to see the hypocrisy and understand that it's not just herself she's putting at risk, it's all of us.

He said he's been thinking about problem solving and that one option would be for DSD to be with us full time and for him to be with BM full time until the pandemic is over. DH thought that he is trying to get to the lack of rules at mom's house. I interpreted it more as he is trying to fall on his sword and protect his sister. We were talking about the choices that are under his control and he piped up with "well mom and bf aren't following these rules and I know that puts you guys at risk and I don't know what to do!" We assured him that it's 100% not his job to control mom and her boyfriend, that we understand that this is happening and that we still want the kids to come here for DH's parenting time and we have accepted those risks because it's better than not seeing them. He seemed reassured by that. But then he said "well what if the risk to (DSD) was 100%? Like she would definitely die if she got it? Would we go to different houses then?" And I said "well then I guess your mom would have to think about what level of risk she's willing to put her daughter in, but we wouldn't ever have a situation where either of you couldn't see either parent." Again he seemed somewhat reassured and thoughtful about his mom's role and responsibility here.

It was a scary thing to hear, but I'm actually tentatively heartened by it. He's trying to use the problem solving skills we talk about. He understands the magnitude of the pandemic. And he shared with us a little more about what he's hearing/seeing from his mom, which is really helpful to us as we help him navigate it. It's hard to not worry that this could take a bad turn, but given the larger context I'm going to hope for the best.

PB, DSS has explicitly told me that he feels like he has to sacrifice to make the people around him happy or solve their problems. This was right around the time when BM and BF broke up (apparently they are back together now), so it didn't take a genius to figure out what he was talking about. We've talked a lot about how not only is it not his job to make other people happy, it's not even actually possible. We talked about how to find a balance between being kind/cheering up loved ones vs putting too much of your own energy into it. He might always have caretaker tendencies - and BM clearly expects her to take care of his feelings - but at least he will know that there is another way.

I think it's certain that BM would like the kids to choose her over DH. I think these conversations are making me realize that BM is a lot more open about her disparagement of DH (and I assume me) than we realized. And I'm realizing how much that hurts DSS and how much it weighs on him. I'm so sad that he has to go through this! I assume that DSD will deal with something similar in a few years, when she's old enough to start internalizing it like DSS is. Ultimately there's only so much I can do and only so much DH can do, this is something the kids have to navigate when they're with their mom.

SL, when you say give him leeway in decisions, do you have any examples of places we could do that? So far the things he's asked for have been problematic. For example, asking to see the correspondence between DH and BM or asking to change the schedule (slightly, but as we know any change can be a huge huge pain). I'm wondering if there are other ways we can give him a voice/share specifics with him in ways that don't seem so much like letting him be in the middle of the arguing.

[Stepping lightly]

HI PL,

I definitely don't mean putting him in the middle of discussion and discussions about changing custody are not on the table.  Maybe talk to him about that, like here are the things that are non-negotiable (i.e custody changes).  You know there are certain things you can't fix....how BM manages COVID in her home, the lies she is telling the kids.  You can't control his experience with BM, but you have control over his experience with you.

I think is more of looking for opportunities to give him options....even if they aren't exactly what you want, or if it feels like it validates BM behaviors.  For example,  awhile ago BM signed DSS up for a group for boys without fathers (uhh??).  We were enraged.  DSS has been involved during her time all school year and asked if he could do their zoom meetings over the summer during our time.  DH said, "is this something you want to do? do you enjoy it?"  DSS does, so he of course is permitted to do that- even though it burns us to our very souls that she signed him up.   On the other hand, DSS is often forced by BM to do things he doesn't not enjoy, and that discussion goes something like, "Do YOU want to do it?  No? Ok, so will it make your life easier if you do it anyway, or do you feel strongly enough to not do it?  It's your choice and we support you either way".  We can't control BM, but we can help him navigate some of these experiences. 

It seems like he needs to build some emotional boundaries as well, so he doesn't feel responsible for everyone around him.  He seems to feels responsible for DSD and BM, and that's hard to fix.  I can't remember- does he go to therapy?  That would be really helpful in that aspect .  But again,  at your house- make sure he understands that he is only responsible for him.   All you can do is make your home a sanctuary.