"My problems are worse than yours!" Is this toxic behavior?

[LilyRose21]

I am trying to figure out if continuing with a particular friendship would be beneficial  or an open door to toxic behaviors  , and would really appreciate any thoughts.

I have a friend whose company I enjoy because we can have wonderful long conversations about all kinds of subjects, and he is very interesting and smart, but I have never really opened up to him about a lot of very personal, difficult things that I have been through.

Yet over the last few years or so, I have tried to be a friend to him and offer him a compassionate ear so that he could feel heard, understood and empathized with about many problems he has experienced that he does not feel he can share with many people. On numerous different occasions I have sat and listened to him for hours, just trying to let him get his feelings off his chest and help him feel heard. 

Recently, I made an attempt to open up to him myself, and at first it seemed like he was listening. I remember even looking at him at one point and thinking I saw an expression of empathy on his face, which became all the more confusing when the next words out of his mouth were basically something like, "that is too bad, but my problems are way worse than yours."

I was taken back for a moment, because I had thought I had seen empathy on his face but his words seemed to be expressing otherwise. His words felt like he was devaluing what I had shared, and they were the exact opposite of what I had offered to him in the past when I sat and listened to him for hours on end express the difficulties he had been through. (I NEVER, EVER made comments to him like, "my problems are worse than yours" - when I am listening to a friend's problems, I am just trying to hear them. Not turn it into a competition over whose problems are worse.)

Unfortunately, because I was left feeling like he was devaluing my concerns, for a moment I got caught up in feeling like I had to explain myself further. I did not feel heard, and in attempt to be heard I tried to tell him that I was not so sure of his statement, feeling like I was not sure he understood what I had said, and attempted to further explain what I had been through.

Yet instead of understanding, he continued to insist that his problems were worse, and that mine simply could not compare.

After trying to explain myself a few times, I quickly realized that I was being drawn into an unhealthy conversation about whose problems were worse, when that is not what sharing with a friend should be about IMO. To me, sharing should result in mutual empathy for both parties, not a competition about who has the worst problems, but I could see that was not was where the conversation was leading and so I stopped trying to explain myself.

But his determination to prove that his problems were worse than mine would not stop. He was beginning to get angry, and even though I never got angry myself and dropped trying to explain my own problems to him because I realized it was turning into an unhealthy competition, he would not stop.

Soon he was off into long, angry digressions going through many of the terrible things he had experienced in his past, and as I could see he was not going to stop, I encouraged him to walk back to the car with me. All along the way he continued to rant, getting angrier and angrier, to the point where he was actually kind of scaring me with how angry he was getting.

On my part, I had just returned to doing what I had always done before, listening and trying to show empathy as I had in the past, but he exclaimed, "I don't think you believe me!!" I insisted that I did, and I think I tried to remind him of all the times I had listened to him and expressed belief, but he continued to get angrier and angrier.

At one point, he stopped me and grabbed me firmly with his hands and made dramatic punching gestures towards me, trying to physically demonstrate some of the abusive behaviors he had witnessed as a child.

We got in the car, and for a good part of the way home (about an hours drive or so) he continued on about how awful his problems were, and then finally said, "I am telling you all of this so that you will know I understand how you feel!" (Well, it did not feel very understanding, to say the least!)

Finally, after listening and empathizing with him for a long time, he gave up and changed the subject, but I could not forget what had happened. For at least a good hour or more I had been forced to listen to him demand in anger that I understand how much worse his problems were than mine. For at least a good hour or more, I felt like any problems I had tried to share were completely dismissed by his sufferings,

I debated if I should spend time with him again after this, because I had always hoped if I ever did open up to him, he would share the same empathy I had given to him. But after this experience, I felt as though I would always have to stay closed off and not be able to open up to him, which means there could never be a real bond there. That just feels extremely disheartening to me and like I will always be in a one-sided relationship, where I empathize with him, but will always have to hear how his problems are worse and more significant than mine if I try to open up.

I would really appreciate hearing what others think about the situation that I described above.

Was his reaction a deal breaker? Toxic? Out of line? A sign of a lack of empathy? What exactly was going on on his end, and how should I view that?

Thank you for taking the time to read and sharing any thoughts!

[countrygirl]

Hi LilyRose,

This situation sounds so disheartening, verging on frightening, because of this person's level of anger. 

This type of exchange resonants for me because I had a friend who would do this very thing, always telling me how much worse her childhood was than mine, and how much worse her current problems were than mine.  I tried everything, including levity, telling  her:  "Hey, I didn't know it was a competition!"  I also said that everyone's problems are their problems, and we can't really know what a situation feels like to them.   But despite my best efforts, she did not change.  Nor was I content to have a one-sided relationship, where I took her problems seriously, but she did not take mine seriously. 

I don't know whether this is toxic behavior, but it's certainly not what you want to hear, and in your case, there is anger being expressed, when he actually put his hands on you; that is toxic behavior.  At the very least, I would resolve never to be alone with him if we started discussing problems.  As I write this, LilyRose, I must tell you that I feel worried on your behalf.  My friend was a petite, older woman, and she didn't express overt anger toward me. In all honesty, I don't think that I could encourage you to continue this friendship.  It is too bad, because he has good characteristics too.  But perhaps the bad outweighs the good.  I have found myself in that situation of asking does the bad outweighs the good; and, generally, I have found that if you get to the point of asking that, you already know the answer.  So many people can have a Dr. Jekyll and a Mr. Hyde personality, and I think you just saw Mr. Hyde.

[LilyRose21]

Hi LilyRose,

This situation sounds so disheartening, verging on frightening, because of this person's level of anger. 

This type of exchange resonants for me because I had a friend who would do this very thing, always telling me how much worse her childhood was than mine, and how much worse her current problems were than mine.  I tried everything, including levity, telling  her:  "Hey, I didn't know it was a competition!"  I also said that everyone's problems are their problems, and we can't really know what a situation feels like to them.   But despite my best efforts, she did not change.  Nor was I content to have a one-sided relationship, where I took her problems seriously, but she did not take mine seriously. 

I don't know whether this is toxic behavior, but it's certainly not what you want to hear, and in your case, there is anger being expressed, when he actually put his hands on you; that is toxic behavior.  At the very least, I would resolve never to be alone with him if we started discussing problems.  As I write this, LilyRose, I must tell you that I feel worried on your behalf.  My friend was a petite, older woman, and she didn't express overt anger toward me. In all honesty, I don't think that I could encourage you to continue this friendship.  It is too bad, because he has good characteristics too.  But perhaps the bad outweighs the good.  I have found myself in that situation of asking does the bad outweighs the good; and, generally, I have found that if you get to the point of asking that, you already know the answer.  So many people can have a Dr. Jekyll and a Mr. Hyde personality, and I think you just saw Mr. Hyde.

Thank you for your reply and thoughts countrygirl. I appreciate them. Sometimes it just really helps to hear what other people think.

I am sorry to hear that you had to deal with something similar (minus the anger) with your friend. I can see where that would absolutely feel so one-sided. Not sure why it is so hard for some people to just try to listen to another person and give them that place to be heard from within their own shoes - shoes which no one else has ever walked in.

It is one of the greatest gifts anyone can give another human being, IMO. I hope you found someone who can do that for you.

Thank you again for sharing! 

[countrygirl]

Hi LilyRose,

I agree that it helps to hear what others think, and it also helps to know that others have shared your experience.   And I think that "sharing" is the operative word here.  It reminds me of a mom telling her kids to share the cookies, meaning to share them equally.  You deserve your share of empathy!

I do have people in my life with whom I share equally, and I would bet you do too, since you seem like an empathetic person.  But I am sorry that this guy doesn't seem as if he will be one of them, just as my friend wasn't.

You know, this whole business of "MY problems are BIGGER than yours" seems very narcissistic to me.  Doesn't it strike you that way?   They seem to be saying they are special because their problems are so much more special than anyone else's.  They should talk to more people, and then they would learn how very many people have bad problems at one time or another.  That's life, and friends try to help each other through the tough times, sharing the bad, as well as the good.

[LilyRose21]

Hi LilyRose,

I agree that it helps to hear what others think, and it also helps to know that others have shared your experience.   And I think that "sharing" is the operative word here.  It reminds me of a mom telling her kids to share the cookies, meaning to share them equally.  You deserve your share of empathy!

I do have people in my life with whom I share equally, and I would bet you do too, since you seem like an empathetic person.  But I am sorry that this guy doesn't seem as if he will be one of them, just as my friend wasn't.

You know, this whole business of "MY problems are BIGGER than yours" seems very narcissistic to me.  Doesn't it strike you that way?   They seem to be saying they are special because their problems are so much more special than anyone else's.  They should talk to more people, and then they would learn how very many people have bad problems at one time or another.  That's life, and friends try to help each other through the tough times, sharing the bad, as well as the good.

I like your mom's reference to sharing the cookies countrygirl! So true. Everyone should be able to experience their share of empathy - as well as cookies! (Now I want cookies. :-)

I do think what you said about narcissism (or ego as another word, because I don't want it to sound like I am diagnosing someone) playing a role could be so true. I also agree that it seems like they are saying they are so special that their problems are so much more special than yours.

The ability to sit down and just listen to another human being and "hold" them emotionally in a space where they can feel like someone cares means putting aside one's own concerns for a period of time and just focusing on the other person without turning your attention away or back to yourself. Just viewing them for who they are, and trying to understand where they are at or what they are going through, without any relation back to you or your issues.

I think that in some people, they are not able to focus their attention completely on another person. I think their attention is so focused on their own problems/self that when they appear to be listening to the other person, they are not really listening. Instead, they are thinking about how what that person says relates to their own problems, and thinking about their own problems, and comparing their own problems, and looking at the other person through the lens of how that person relates to them and their issues/personal experiences, rather than trying to see the other person individually and separate from them and their concerns. The other person is not seen for who they are - as a separate human being with problems unrelated to theirs - but as a mirror reflecting facets of the ego, or the egos needs/experiences, back.

As a result, their problems always appear more important and significant, because everything is measured according to the measure of their own world. Everything always is a mirror reflecting back to them. They are the yard stick against which everything else is constantly being judged and compared. Therefore to them, no one else's problems can ever compare to theirs. Their problems are more special because they are the center from which everything else is measured!

In a nutshell, they cannot let go of them self long enough to just listen to another person without thinking of them self in one way or another.

I am not saying that is what happened with my friend (still trying to figure out what happened there, if it was a momentary lapse or what not), but I do think that in anyone who cannot consistently show empathy that could be the cause.

That is at least what I think causes it. Curious what you, or anyone else, might think?

Thank you again for your thoughts!

[Srcyu]

It sounds as though he's stuck, fixated on his own experiences. He is his problems. That's his identity. To have someone else try talking about themselves - threatens him. He is nowhere near being able to concentrate on other people. His damage to self is huge. He holds onto those memories of abuse because he has nothing else. He sees it as an insult to hear about what he considers to be lesser issues.

Does he feel bad about his displays of anger afterwards? If not, then he has no self reflection or mood control.

[Call Me Cordelia]

An hour or more? While you were driving?  And he put his hands on you?

I think this whole thing crosses the line of toxic behavior. I certainly would be taking a HUUUUUGE step back in this relationship. Whether he feels badly afterwards or not. Yikes. If that's in his wheelhouse, no thank you. I think you are exactly right when you notice that you have offered him empathy and compassion time and again, and then when you try being reciprocal, he freaked out. One-sided relationship, yep. When people show you who they are believe them. 

[LilyRose21]

It sounds as though he's stuck, fixated on his own experiences. He is his problems. That's his identity. To have someone else try talking about themselves - threatens him. He is nowhere near being able to concentrate on other people. His damage to self is huge. He holds onto those memories of abuse because he has nothing else. He sees it as an insult to hear about what he considers to be lesser issues.

Does he feel bad about his displays of anger afterwards? If not, then he has no self reflection or mood control.

Hi Windmill, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I am curious what you mean when you said, "His damage to self is huge." Could you perhaps elaborate?

Thank you Windmill!

[LilyRose21]

An hour or more? While you were driving?  And he put his hands on you?

I think this whole thing crosses the line of toxic behavior. I certainly would be taking a HUUUUUGE step back in this relationship. Whether he feels badly afterwards or not. Yikes. If that's in his wheelhouse, no thank you. I think you are exactly right when you notice that you have offered him empathy and compassion time and again, and then when you try being reciprocal, he freaked out. One-sided relationship, yep. When people show you who they are believe them. 

Yeah, he actually wrapped his hands around my neck if I was to get exact. He was trying to demonstrate the abuse he had witnessed in his past, but it definitely made me feel uncomfortable given how angry he was.

It definitely is a let down to feel that he was not able to reciprocate and I had to spend the rest of the evening empathizing with him but not receiving anything back. I think I will be taking a step back, at least for now. The whole thing keeps bothering me.

Thank you for taking the time to read and share your thoughts!

[notrightinthehead]

I think taking a step back is an excellent idea. So much better than ignoring the bright red flag you described. He scared you. He devalued your experience and your feelings. He exposed uncontrolled rage.  He showed you who he is. Believe him.

[hhaw]

He didn't listen to you.  He waited to speak again and what you said was dismissed and reason to belittle your experience.

I'm sorry this friend's damage has rendered reciprocity impossible between you.

You deserve reciprocal friendship, which ebbs and flows.  You should have your turn, Lilyrose.  You deserve it and are more than worthy.

Trust your gut.  Honor yourself.  You aren't a therapist obligated to listen to this man's trauma and pain, without end, comment or sharing, which seems to be his expectation, even if he has to frighten and and bully you into compliance.

It's certainly not healthy, ime.

[Catothecat]

Expressing your concerns and issues to another person shouldn't be a competition, but I've found that with narcs it seems to automatically become just that!  They absolutely cannot have you "win" that competition so will use whatever means they have in order to keep the upper hand.  Since you defended your right to express your feelings and concerns, since you tried to make this person understand that you were an equal and deserving of respect, you crossed a type of boundary which caused your friend to escalate his problems to the point where he was acting them out.  He had to show you, one way or another, that he was more important than you. 

I don't know if your friend is a narc, and even if he is, most narcs don't go to that extreme, rather they just find a way to shut you down, mostly by ignoring you or dismissing you and then moving on to themselves.  But I think Windmill makes a good point--some people are codependent with their issues to the point where they cannot see themselves as someone not a summation of their various issues.  They have no healthy reference point, but rather cling to their damaged selves like grim death.  You cannot pry them away from this need to be seen as "someone with problems."  It's part of their identity and they won't let go and will feel threatened if they feel you are trying to come between them and their issues.  I'm not saying this is true about your friend, but it could be.  Often people like this are covert, they pull you in with a veneer of empathy and understanding, but they really aren't interested in you.  You only discover who they really are when you cross their hidden boundary. 

I had a NPD friend who liked to "act out" his various issues and problems in very dramatic ways.  He enjoyed the attention he got from being "angry" and it always had a theatrical aspect to it.  Over time I realized that these expressions of anger were his way of trying to claim and hold center stage in the "issues" contest.  Even a minor occurrence could cause him to rage because he deliberately escalated it into a rage.  It was all very calculated again for attention.  But I don't know if this is what your friend is doing and your experience with him has to be your guide.  However, in any case it's toxic behavior because a healthy person simply doesn't act like that. 

[Srcyu]

LilyRose21.
I was meaning that his personality is so badly damaged by his experiences when he was younger that his real character was altered along the way.
What I'm trying to convey is - I have sympathy for him, but I wouldn't want to be left alone with him due to his loss of control over his emotions.

[NarcKiddo]

I think there are a lot of things to be concerned about here. The anger in particular. Plus insisting his problems are the worst of all is just weird.

But being able to see and listen to another person without bringing yourself into it is difficult, especially if that behaviour has never been modelled to you. Having been brought up by a narc I was never just listened to and allowed to solve my problems by myself. For a long time I had no idea that approach might even be desirable. Problems are there to be solved and if someone was sharing a problem with me it was because they wanted a solution. It did not occur to me that a solution might be subjective. The only way I knew how to show empathy was to relate similar incidents I had experienced. I was never doing it to try to make my problems seem more important than theirs - I was genuinely trying to show that I had some notion of what they were going through, that I knew it felt bad and if I had had any success in dealing with anything similar I would share how I had gone about it. That approach is still my go-to and I find it very hard just to step back and say, essentially, "I hear you".

I'm not suggesting you give this guy a pass if you don't want to or feel uncomfortable around him. But you sound emotionally mature. You may not always get that level of emotional maturity back from a friendship, but I don't think that necessarily means the person is toxic (and I don't think that is what you are saying, either.)

[moglow]

It's one thing to tell you how he feels, another to demonstrate physically and intimidate another in the process. Vast differences, and that doesn't feel like a place id want to be in future. Time his *behavior* was toxic in that situation, yes. I was physically abused growing up and I won't expose myself to that anymore, even from a friend.

We ALL have stuff, and many have been abused on a variety of levels. That doesn't mean we should go around proclaiming how ours was worse. Comparisons serve no one. That doesn't mean we can't be empathetic or even just safe listeners, but we still have an obligation first to ourselves.

It's telling that he didn't "come back to himself," calm down afterwards and apologize profusely for his treatment of you. I'd be hesitant to have contact with him. He'll get that wound up and no see how horribly out of line and unnecessary it was? Anger management might be something for him to consider.

[Jolie40]

"my problems are worse than yours" does seem toxic

sounds like my FOO & PD parent
they always had to have a worse problem

husband said it was oneupmanship

when my child was a toddler & I mentioned a small difficulty I was having
instead of support, I got "I don't know how I ever managed with all my kids"

I never, ever mentioned any little difficulties re child again as I knew there would be NO support

[Pepin]

LilyRose21 I am so sorry you are going through all of these REALLY scary experiences - at least they sound scary to me and my hair has been standing on end all day after reading your words.

There are too many red flags in your original post.  Behaviors that are unacceptable and toxic. 

For the sake of comparison, do any of your friends or family behave like this?  I am guessing probably not.

And if your friend when they were younger, having witnessed abuse - and likely felt scared or bad about it - why would they turn around and do the same to another person, like yourself?  To me, your friend has done no healing or inner work from their past.  I guarantee you that your friend will never get better unless they get help with a good trauma therapist.  It isn't fair for you to be this friend's punching bag, that is what therapy is for.  Their anger is being misdirected at you and that is not fair. 

As others have mentioned, please take a step back and reconsider this relationship.  We all deserve to be treated with kindness and caring from those we surround ourselves with.  You shouldn't feel depleted and devalued when hanging out with people but rather, refreshed and recharged -- and you should feel good.  If my friends did this to me, we wouldn't be friends anymore.  Life is just too short for that considering that there are billions of people out there to be friends with.

And has I have learned, those that don't do the healing work only get worse over time.  If this person is a true narcissist, they will ignore healing and get worse with each passing year.   

 

[Starboard Song]

I'd not consider such behavior a deal breaker for a friendship, nor would I label it as toxic. But you have the right to make a couple important decisions about this person: What can you share with them, and how much can you now listen to their own problems? Is this new balance an acceptable one for a friendship? One possibility is a great, ongoing friendship that no longer has as a part of it the mutual sharing of any significant problems.

Life is hard and all relationships are harder. This person is being a good deal selfish and is lacking in sufficient empathy. Our problems are not contests to be weighed against each other. Their problems are certainly not as bad as some other person we could find. That's never the right way to assess or respond to anyone's description of their challenges.

But I encourage you to maintain an open and loving heart towards this person and simply decide whether this friendship works in the absence of mutual support and discussion of personal problems.

[Amy-Rose]

WOW. This was a very similar situation to which I was in. Although she never said her problems were worse than mine, her actions spoke volumes. My problems, past wounds, bereavements simply dismissed and given no time. Like she didn't want to hear someone else might have it as bad or even worse than her. She was very self-absorbed.
I think, if this happens once or twice or for a short period of time when someone is going through something then I wouldn't call it toxic. Lacking in self awareness, yes.

But if this is a running trait of this constant 'I'm superior because my problems are worse so you must sympathise and empathise with me." then it does become toxic.

You are at threat from becoming drained by this sympathy vampire, resentful your needs aren't being met and the relationship is taking on that codependency of "giver" and "taker" dance.
I thought I was hearing personal, secrets as well about my friends life. I thought I was doing her a favour but listening. SHE WAS TELLING ALL HER FRIENDS. And they were getting told stuff I wasn't. It's also showing signs of the narcissistic Grandiose symptom.
(often seen as boasting about achievements but in vulnerable narcs can be seen as boasting about problems/bereavements/old traumas and so on)

Hope this helps xxx

[Hattie]

This sounds completely nuts and you should cut him off. I also have been threatened with strangulation as part of the domestic abuse that I've been through  but I have NEVER felt the need to demonstrate that by grabbing someone else's neck. Don't make excuses for him. He sounds dangerous.