Relationships and Conversations With My Two Adult/Teen Children

[Kat54]

My children are 23 and 21. Daughter is finishing her last semester of college and son is working for his father in the trade business and loving it and doing pretty well I think. When I say I think its because I hardly speak with him. Call or text him every week, sometimes he answers, many times he does not. Many times I feel its not just me hes this way with. He works for his dad and lives at the house but any down time hes out of there and at his girlfriends so I think he treats my ex and myself kind of the same.  Though my ex for sure see's him much more and they even go out together occasionally and even with his girlfriend.

We are still in the middle of our divorce and I am living at my sisters summer home, which is directly behind my house where my ex and son are. Though he never ever stops over, never calls. Never see him unless I ask to get together, and most times he can't or he will cancel. See him once a month if I'm lucky.  Concerning our divorce I hardly ever speak about it and never say a mean thing about their father.  The high road is what I've tried to take, and its gotten me to feel very estranged from my children.

My daughter and I are sometimes on better ground. She does call from college and when she's home she will come over and hang out so I'm so grateful for that. Her father and brother are verbally abusive toward her as they were with me so my house is definitely an escape for her.  But sometimes my ex says things and then she's icy and unresponsive to me so I'm never quite sure whats going on. If I ask they both get annoyed and don't want to discuss it or they just say things are fine...but things still remain icy. 

I have always said to both of them they can come to me with questions if they are unsure or if they want to vent or talk, but they never have. I've remained upfront and when they need to know things concerning the divorce I do tell them.

I miss them both so so much, my son I feel like I'm loosing him, or it may be my insecurity. The divorce needs to get settled and then hoping things will get better. My son did tell me this needs to get finished so we can all get our lives back on track. Its my ex who has been holding it up with stalling, not doing what he's asked, dragging him to court to force him.  Waiting for the house to get appraised. I sent in the money I owed, the appraiser has not received the portion from my ex, and that was a month ago. Stalling, stalling stalling.  We go back to court at the end of March, if the house isn't appraised he will get fined by the court. 

My fear is they will remain with him if he buys me out of the house and It could further estrange me from my kids, as I was the one who left. My ex portrays himself as the victim, even though he was verbally abusive to me and to our kids. He's great at manipulation and many people view him as this great funny guy. he is, but at home, not so much. 

Am I being unrealistic thinking my kids are angry with me? I feel like they are. 

[athene1399]

Welcome, Kat. I'm not sure if I've seen you on here before. Divorce can be difficult, especially since it sounds like there are a lot of factors, like the house, which you don't know how they will turn out. That can be stressful. And it may leave you feeling like your future is in limbo.

I also feel that you are doing the right thing by not saying anything bad about your ex. Sometimes that makes the kids uncomfortable, feeling that they have to choose sides. Since the kids are older, do they know their dad has a type of personality disorder? and if so, what do they know about it?

[anxiousmom]

Kat,

I don't think you're being unrealistic, I think it's quite likely your kids are upset that the divorce is taking place, and feel like they can only take it out on the "stable" parent, so to speak. There's no telling what kind of resentment they may or may not have, but it sounds like you've done a great job of trying to foster some open communication so they don't feel like they're out of the loop. I hope some here with older children will chime in, as mine is much younger so I don't have much personal experience with which to base any advice from, but you sound very reasonable and I am glad you are sharing your story.

[sonto92]

Kat - I totally understand your feelings and what you are going through - had a bout of this with my 19 y/o son over the last year.  My son made the decision to leave his mom's place in the middle of his senior year of high school and move in with me - there was a lot of chaos at BPDx's house and he was done.  He stayed with me until he moved about 80 miles away from where I live.  When he comes down to visit, he rarely stops by the house - but he often makes a point of stopping at his mom's.  We stay in contact mostly via texts and occasional phone calls.  I was struggling with this last summer, because things were "really bad" when he decided to leave mom's house and for the life of me, I just figured he would want to stay the hell out of all of that drama at his mom's. 
I spoke with a therapist about this yesterday.  She asked me about the hostility that my 15 y/o currently has towards me and where it comes from.  The only thing that I came up with is that the kids have been on the brunt end of so many of her explosive episodes that involve me that it kind of flows likes this recent example: dad sets up appt to meet with son's counselor at school without mom - mom loses her shit and everyone in her home -  kids included - are walking on eggshells.  Kids are like "why did dad set up this appointment and make my mom mad - therefore we (kids)  are mad at dad for making mom mad - he must have done something."  How many times do you thing you could fill in the blank for scenarios such as this?  How many times do you think this plays out in your children's lives with a PD parent?  It's just screwed up logic.  When this is repeated over and over  and over, and over, the seeds of mistrust with the non-parent have been planted in your children - it's not fair but there is really nothing you can do to change it. All of this stuff is classic no-win scenarios - you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
The struggle with yourself is real - it's really hard to not take things personally, and I feel for you.  I've been working on some growth in this area.  If you haven't read it already, there is a great book out there called "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz - it's a great read for spiritual growth.

[cant turn back]

I'm with you all.  My 15DD is currently mad at me after I had to be the bad cop this weekend, wouldn't let her go out with her friends as she was being disrespectful with me.  It was quite an upset and she has certainly made me pay for it with her dismissive, antagonistic, flippant, and disrespectful tone.  She said "are you trying to make me hate you"?    She's now back with her dad this week and I'm miserable.  It's a combo of 15 year old emotions, immaturity, and pent up divorce anger that she is spewing my way... now with good time guy who can't bear to tell her NO.  I'm sure he's getting a lot of mileage out of this situation, reinforcing his position as 'the good guy'.  She has not texted me back since I dropped her off last night.  I'm not badgering her, just the normal good morning/good night texts that I always send,  Again, I'm miserable, waiting for this 15 year old to throw me a bone so I can feel alright again.  (Makes me feel so pathetic).  Even more than this mini-estrangement, I'm just so worried about her total apathy and antagonism.  She is just unmotivated and negative, about everything.  The worst thing is that I have no way to reel her back in.  Nothing I say is right to her and her responses this weekend we're just dripping with condescension, just as disrrspectful as the offense for which I busted her...???? I can't bust her at that level every five minutes.  Even though that's what should happen.  It's like she's calling my bluff, she even said "obviously your consequences don't even work".  I'm just at a loss for how to get her back on track.  I feel like s total failure as a mom.  She is so disorganized, just like the chaos of this toxic divorce situation is manifesting itself all over her life.  Yet, she is so opposed to therapy.  My Ex made sure of that... it's too big of a risk for him if she talks too much to the right people.

I do think there might be an effect of: she knows I am the stable, safe parent to express her anger and hurt on. 

I never say anything bad about my Ex to our DD15.  I'm the one who's buying him Christmas presents for DD15 to give him, and so on.  Of course he does not do this for DD15 to give to me.

I have to believe in my heart DD15 knows right vs wrong , however,  just like her mom, she's an enabler, taking care to not upset her dad, protecting him. 

My Ex did stay in the family home and he bought me out.  He refused to leave. I accepted it, yet I'm still pretty resentful of all I had to leave behind.  I'm doing fine where I'm at, yet, he does have a leg up on me in his staying in the only home our daughter has ever known.  She is comfortable with me at my place too when it's my week, but it's just not the same.   

Sonto93, your fill in the blank scenario.. yup, sounds so familiar.  It's hard for me to blame my DD15 though, she watched me walk on eggshells her whole life, always trying to juggle and keep the peace and avoid drama. 

Also, yes, my Ex is absolutely 'the victim'.  FAR FROM IT in reality.  But that how he acts.  And his good guy, great dad mask to the world is nauseating to me.

It is so triggering for me when I push the button to open this co-parenting thread to seek like-minded support, only to often find so many who are so worse off, my heart breaks for the families, parents and children who are separated because of the other toxic parent.  It terrifies me.  DD15 is the only thing that matters to me and I am so worried about her, worried about losing her.   Worried that this divorce that I wanted will ruin her life (which BTW, is the message I know my Ex is giving her). 

[athene1399]

I've only been involved starting when SD was 14, but part of me feels that it's almost worst when they are teens just due to teen tendencies. Like they feed too well into each other. But I could be wrong because I didn't have any experience prior to that. Sometimes it feels like BM is a child herself.  feel BM and SD gang up on SO for being the responsible adult. And Sonto, we've unfortunately had plenty of "fill in the blank" scenarios. Ours was "if you would just sign over custody of me to mom, she wouldn't be doing any of this." But that's the logic. It's exactly it. If you would just give into their crazy demands the temper tantrums will stop and things will be better. It's our faults that the PDs can't control their emotions in the mind of the kids. And that's really sad.

BM also refused to leave SO's place after they split. SO moved out and she refused to. They were renting and she couldn't pay so she eventually got evicted, but ruined the place before she left in the hopes that SO would have to foot the bill. It's so hard to believe that people can do this to each other until you see it.

Also, yes, my Ex is absolutely 'the victim'.  FAR FROM IT in reality.  But that how he acts.  And his good guy, great dad mask to the world is nauseating to me.

We got that too with BM. Mother of the freaking year and a struggling single mom who doesn't even have custody of any of her kids. And a total victim. The world is out to get her. None of it is her fault. It makes me so mad sometimes. I want to scream "Can't you see how fake she is? We're the ones that pay for whatever SD needs!" But the way she tells it, she does everything for her with no help from us. I guess SD knows we are the ones who buys he what she needs, but now it just seems like she only contacts us when she wants something.

Sorry I'm ranting this morning. I hope I didn't derail the topic.

[Magnolia34]

I read a few of these to DH and his hands were shaking a little by the time I was finished. I say this constantly but it's like they have a handbook.

athene1399, I think you're right about it being harder when dealing with teenagers. It's twofold for us. First, like you said, BM is like a teenager herself. It's all about the short term, get what you can get, forget about the consequences. She's currently getting the two oldest kids wrapped up in a cell phone deal I'm afraid they're not going to be able to get out of. She has convinced DSS17 that if he pays her out of her phone's lease he can get a buy one get one (some deal through the provider) and he and his sister can both get a brand new phone! None one is considering the fact that someone (not BM) is going to have to pay the monthly lease on this phone PLUS an extra service fee for the free one. This isn't the first time she's used the kids to get out of bad financial decisions. There was a point in time that she was "depositing" DSS's checks from work for him but money would mysteriously disappear for things she claimed he owed her for.

Second, it's hard to discern what's just normal teenage behavior and what is being perpetuated by BM. Teenagers can be tough, I was SUCH an asshole. But I had two loving parents who were on the same team and I eventually came around! I can't imagine some of the decisions I would have made if I had a parent telling me I could do whatever I wanted! When the kids are with us they're mostly at home (I think because, unlike BM's, we're actually there to interact and pay attention to them) I take SD shopping and DH engages them in projects around the house or helping cook meals, or we'll all go to a movie. From what I can tell it's a free for all at BM's and that's the time they spend running around. We found out that BM let DSD 14 go to a rated R movie really late at night and then she went out to dinner afterwards with older kids from her school. We also recently heard that they all left for dinner one night and forgot DSS17 was home and left him. Like... who doesn't know which of your kids are under your roof?!?! Maybe neither of those scenarios are as bad as I feel like they are. Maybe it's not having any control? I don't know.

Sonto, you're totally right "You're damned if you do and damned if you don't." Our PC even laid that scenario out to DSS17 and BM last year when DSS refused to leave his mom's house and follow the 50/50 custody schedule. She said "You know...  you're dad's the bad guy if he lets you stay at your mom's house because then you think he doesn't care about you, but he's the bad guy if he fights for you because it appears as if he's causing all of this trouble. That's called a double bind." I think that's the closest anyone has ever come to calling BM out on her alienation.

Athene, don't apologize for ranting. I've been in a really low, "poor us, this is never going to end" kind of mood lately.

[Kat54]

Thank you for all your thoughts and advice. I've been posting on the Separating and Divorcing board mostly but my feelings about my kids weigh on me a lot. The guilt and how they view me. Take this week. I have upcoming knee surgery and asked my son if he would take me. Its an early morning surgery, and we would be back home by 12:30-1:00. he would be missing a half day of working for his father.  He told me he would like to help me out but would have to check with his father to see if the work day was too busy. Had told him the back up would be my girlfriend if he was unable to.

He said he would let me know the next day, and now still have not heard from him and we are a couple days from the surgery. Have texted him and he doesn't respond to the question. So, I'm feeling his father is probably giving him a hard time in some way. My ex usually starts out with the snide comments. I've seen him do this with people who were our supposed friends. Nice as can be in front of people but in private goes on and on about how stupid or horrible they are. All out of jealousy;  Has to tear people down all the time.

As with me, my ex probably doesn't hold back much in front of my kids. I know he doesn't as I've had two instances my daughter stops speaking to me.  Its usually when things are happening with the lawyers.
To maybe spare my son from having to deal with his father and his outbursts I'll probably just have my girlfriend take me. 

Have to keep the prize at the end in mind, all I can do is hope and pray.  Try to put myself in their shoes. Walking on eggshells in our house was the norm. I'm not in that anymore but they still are so its got to be hard for him. He is a tough kid, but not when my ex starts raging and they seriously get into it. My ex can act extremely immature so when things get rough things go bad quickly.

[Penny Lane]

Hi Kat, I don't have older children but putting myself in their shoes ... is it possible that (maybe on top of being mad at you) they're confused or unsure of how to act? And I think as you've said they're almost certainly hearing lies from their dad about you, so there might be some cognitive dissonance over what he's telling them vs what they know about you and what they're observing. Early 20s is kind of a weird transition time anyway and I imagine dealing with your parents getting divorced right as you're transitioning to adulthood can be a special kind of tricky. Add the chaos of a PD into the mix and it's a really tough situation for them. And there's not really an easy way to balance both parents when one is putting them in the middle. So they're defaulting to what they know which is appeasing their dad.

I'm not sure quite what you can do with that insight though. Maybe a little guidance on how you'd hope they handle things? Maybe give them some space until the divorce settles down? And I don't think you should complain about their dad to them (not that it sounds like you are) but I do think you can give them accurate information. Like when your son says this needs to get finished up you could say, "I agree and I am working my hardest to make that happen. The next step is for your dad to get the house appraised and hopefully once he does that we can move some other stuff along. I think we'd all like to see this over with." Not blaming, just telling him where the process is at.